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[Black_Stride]

But I thought the Series S was able to do everything that the Series X can do except in 1080p ....

The PS5 and XSX are 1080p.
So you wanted the Series S to be 1080p?
Am I missing something mate?

 

[Caio]

There's more to graphics than just resolution.

Resolution alone means nothing. I would stay "all this Gen" with RES lower than 4K and this kind of graphics, details, lighting.

 

[Cherrypepsi]

Runs like shit. What good is this technology if it feels like crap when you go hands on?

I swear if this generation starts devolving back into 1080/30 I'm done.

it's incredible that you start your whining about a demo that shows off UE5 great capabilities and is FREE to download

maybe elitist gamers like you are the problem why we dont see any advancements in graphics.

go and play Tetris in 8k @ 240hz

 

[Vognerful]

… if PS5 had been a single $449-499 SKU this pincher movement strategy MS had in mind would have been far more effective despite Series S still either holding back or being left behind mostly or just making development costlier…

Microsoft wanted to reach a bigger number of people from the start. We do know that by the end of last ten, Sony sold more units by almost 3 times, but we don't always look at the trend these consoles were selling at the last year or so. Xbox could have going downwards and they needed something to capture more market.

I know people try to argue that Xbox could have followed Sony by releasing a digital only XSX but they keep ignoring that latest figures show I think that out of 10 PS5 consoles sold, only 1 was a digital one. It makes me wonder what if Sony are really committed to this module, or is it less profitable to produce, or that the ratios will adjust after all this stock issues.

I mean, if Microsoft changed all their XSS to XSX, they will get around 3rd of The numbers only. That is not going to solve Xbox market reach issue.

 

[Riky]

Because there is a limit in how low you can go with native resolution and you have a bigger than 3x gap once you factor in the lower clockspeed of the GPU (and somewhat the impact of bandwidth of the non GPU optimised memory pool if you need to feed the GPU from it).

The one third figure comes from 4 to 12 Tflops, the calculation of Tflops includes clock speed already.
My understanding from everything I've read is that the lower memory bandwidth portion is reserved for the OS at all times and is never used for gaming on Series S.
Would be interested in any link you have that says otherwise?

 

[DenchDeckard]

It runs like absolute doo doo.

 

[Darsxx82]

The frametime graph is nigh literally never flat....how is that favoring the PS5?

But also framepacing it is also that on PS5 there are also fps drops in a similar or equal way in that video. And Alex from DF, has already confirmed the same thing that is seen in the NXG video and that between PS5 and XSX you see there is nothing to debate and only the differences with XSS are interesting.

 

[Leyasu]

Maybe... We'll see what they say. The framerate looks clearly better on PS5 in free roam sections though.

Or is this confirmation bias too (see link I gave above for the source video) ?

I saw a video on YouTube can’t remember who, and both PS5 and XsX were dropping into the teens on the driving sections.

Doesn’t seem good enough for a win for either imo

 

[Edder1]

Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Sony Santa Monica, Infinity Ward and several other studios like Crystal Dynamics and Xbox's own Initiative are based out of LA. They do hire hollywood artists. Jason Rubin started hiring Hollywood talent at Naughty Dog way back in the early 2000s. He was adamant about hiring expensive artists because he knew even back then that they needed to compete with Hollywood.

This demo was made by Hollywood artists at Weta Digital AND folks over at Epic who are obviously not filmmakers.

The reason why you havent seen anything look this good on consoles is because of lack of ambition from the studio leads like Cory Barlog who admitted to making the decision to make GOW last gen (second time he's done this btw), as well as from execs like Herman Hurst, Matt Booty, Phil Spencer and Jim Ryan who wanted to make more money selling cross gen games instead of pushing the medium. The talent is there, but they are forced to slave away on 1.3 and 1.8 tflops consoles just so their bosses can get a yacht for Christmas.

Say what you will about Bethesda's quality control or lack thereof, but Todd Howard made the decision to go next gen only way back in 2017. His next gen only game will be one of the first ones out, albeit still in late 2022. And same goes for Ubisoft, derided by the entire gaming community as soulless open world producers, they are going to have a next gen only Avatar ready in 2022. That E3 trailer no longer looks too good to be true now, does it?

I am glad Epic has made not one but two demos showing whats possible on next gen consoles. It gives consumers an insight into just how corrupt and greedy this industry has become. We wont get visuals like this from first party for at least another year or maybe two when Spiderman 2 and Hellblade 2 launch in 2023. 3 years after launch.

Yo Slimy, I think BryanK may have hacked your account.

 

[Rivet]

You Slimy, I think BryanK may have hacked your account.

Yes, that's a ridiculous post. It's not about lack of ambition from devs at all. It's just UE5 has just been released and it takes years to make AAA games, so of course you won't see big UE5 games before a few years from now... Give them time.

 

[Edder1]

Why is everyone fixated on 1080p when that's only the internal resolution and not the actual end output which is 1440p? I mean many AAA console games these days render at lower internal resolution like 1080p or 1440p and then upscale or reconstruct from there. The final image looks way better than 1080p and that's all that matters.

The bigger problem with this demo imo is how noisy everything looks, that's one thing that needs to be cleaned up. 30fps is the price we'll have to pay on consoles for such a leap in graphical fidelity, which I think people will eventually accept, especially if they'll have an option for 60fps with mid gen Pro consoles.

 

[T-Barbs]

I downloaded it yesterday and i am moderately impressed. But in my opinion, we should look at this demo as some kind of stress test, while in a real world developing scenario, nobody will be forced to choose to render this amount of assets and objects in real time, for which of course, some compromise is needed.

As a result, i am sure UE5 will be able to produce and move really amazing visuals in next gen games.

 

[Elios83]

This is basically the engine of the games of the future (2023 onwards titles), the one that is going to be used by tons of third party games and makes use of the full power of the systems.
The fact that it's identical on both (I'm reading PS5 has a slight advantage in streaming textures) should tell some people how the rest of the gen will go with these comparisons.

 

[Darsxx82]

I saw a video on YouTube can’t remember who, and both PS5 and XsX were dropping into the teens on the driving sections.

Doesn’t seem good enough for a win for either imo

It must be said that this happens at times when you drive at high speed through hundreds of vehicles that are also destroyed and damaged by impacts. Surely in a normal game they would reduce the speed and damage that in this demo are fantastic. I wish we saw a driving game with that level of damage to the vehicles.

 

[jroc74]

I downloaded it yesterday and i am moderately impressed. But in my opinion, we should look at this demo as some kind of stress test, while in a real world developing scenario, nobody will be forced to choose to render this amount of assets and objects in real time, for which of course, some compromise is needed.

As a result, i am sure UE5 will be able to produce and move really amazing visuals in next gen games.

Thank you.

The stats for what was used in this demo is insane...like every other UE5 demo before....

For this one, for example, almost 10 million unique or duplicated assets were used. A plaque in the demo says 7 million instanced assets. Plaques have messages about what was done with the demo.

The Matrix Awakens is an unmissable next-gen showcase

After teasing us with a pre-load earlier in the week, The Matrix Awakens: An Unreal Engine 5 experience has finally unl…

www.eurogamer.net

Each time a UE5 demo is shown its like nothing matters but resolution, frame rates, etc. Without factoring in whats actually being done in the demo.

When I first tried it, I said the cars at a glance looked like it was from a movie. I later said I may have been exaggerating.

Then ppl started posted screen shots....that looked like a damn movie, lol.

Overall, I'm just glad it was available for both the PS5 and Series consoles at the same time. That this is even running on the consoles should not be overlooked., regardless of resolution.

 

[RoadHazard]

The one third figure comes from 4 to 12 Tflops, the calculation of Tflops includes clock speed already.
My understanding from everything I've read is that the lower memory bandwidth portion is reserved for the OS at all times and is never used for gaming on Series S.
Would be interested in any link you have that says otherwise?

Some parts of what a GPU does (for example fillrate) are highly dependent on clock speed, which is why the PS5 GPU is objectively better than the XSX at certain things even though it has lower floating point performance. The same applies here. The XSS has 1/3 of the floating point performance of the XSX, but it's also worse in other ways because of the lower clock speed.

 

[kikkis]

Some parts of what a GPU does (for example fillrate) are highly dependent on clock speed, which is why the PS5 GPU is objectively better than the XSX at certain things even though it has lower floating point performance. The same applies here. The XSS has 1/3 of the floating point performance of the XSX, but it's also worse in other ways because of the lower clock speed.

I don't know if fill rate is too important on modern graphics, maybe shadow maps benefit a little bit.

 

[BigbyTheSheriff]

This thread went exactly as I expected.

 

[Three]

The frametime graph is nigh literally never flat....how is that favoring the PS5?

Because it's never flat on other systems too? I don't understand what your point is.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Yes, that's a ridiculous post. It's not about lack of ambition from devs at all. It's just UE5 has just been released and it takes years to make AAA games, so of course you won't see big UE5 games before a few years from now... Give them time.

This April... we get one

 

[FranXico]

If 1080p/ 30 fps is the price to pay for graphics like these, I'm all in

I'd swallow 1080p, but 30fps?

Nope.

 

[FranXico]

Saw some images comparing the versions favoring the PS5 version, is this true? No idea where it's from.

Apparently there are some comparisons online claiming that there is a slight difference in LOD pop in.

Nothing that anyone actually playing this demo will notice, of course.

 

[RoadHazard]

I don't know if fill rate is too important on modern graphics, maybe shadow maps benefit a little bit.

It definitely is when you've got a lot of heavy alpha effects. That's why you often see frame drops from that stuff.

 

[Loxus]

Runs like shit. What good is this technology if it feels like crap when you go hands on?

I swear if this generation starts devolving back into 1080/30 I'm done.

Everyone is bitching about cross gen and probably not realising that it's saving us from crap like this demo.

It's not the best performance but you have to remember this is a tech demo.
Unreal Engine 5 is still in development and is set to have a stable release spring 2022.



This video discusses how developers will have to cheat they way to photorealism.

We see Intel, Nvidia and AMD using Machine Learning to upscale 1080p to 4k and it looks pretty good, very close to native.

Ray Tracing is also very expensive, which is why we have techniques like Lumen. In the future, there might have to implement a Ray Tracing Pipeline for better performance.

Then we have Nanite that near completely remove pop in and near limitless draw distance.

Clever techniques like Nanite, Lumen, Temporal Upscaling and Machine Learning is how we can achieve photorealism.

As for frame rate, we see developers implementing Quality and Performance modes. Where you choose between high graphical fidelity at 30fps or low graphical fidelity at 60fps or higher. I wouldn't worry about FPS at the moment.

All in all, this is a good look into the future and it's only going to get better with optimization.

 

[Black_Stride]

Because it's never flat on other systems too? I don't understand what your point is.

Its never flat on XSS and XSX?
Are you color blind or do you just not understand how frametime graphs work?

The PS5s graph never sits stable for more than like one frame and is constantly fluctuating up and down.
The Series consoles stabilize for large swaths of the demo....the PS5 literally never does.

When the frame rate advantage is below 1fps but the frame pacing is totally totally off.....constantly.
The system with a stable frametime graph will actually feel like its playing better and without an actual FPS counter you would think the PS5 is dropping frames.
Thats what improper framepacing does....its a worse experience overall than having a few drops here and there.
Its why frametimes are actually a better metric of a games performance than using such a large average as fps.

But anotherone.gif amarite?
That fps advantage with improper framepacing for the win!

^The Series S and Series X arent hidden behind the PS5s awful frametime graph.....they are literally flat.

 

[kikkis]

It definitely is when you've got a lot of heavy alpha effects. That's why you often see frame drops from that stuff.

I think even alpha effects use quite advanced shaders these days and sorting on compute etc.

 

[rofif]

Its never flat on XSS and XSX?
Are you color blind or do you just not understand how frametime graphs work?

The PS5s graph never sits stable for more than like one frame and is constantly fluctuating up and down.
The Series consoles stabilize for large swaths of the demo....the PS5 literally never does.

When the frame rate advantage is below 1fps but the frame pacing is totally totally off.....constantly.
The system with a stable frametime graph will actually feel like its playing better and without an actual FPS counter you would think the PS5 is dropping frames.
Thats what improper framepacing does....its a worse experience overall than having a few drops here and there.
Its why frametimes are actually a better metric of a games performance than using such a large average as fps.

But anotherone.gif amarite?
That fps advantage with improper framepacing for the win!

^The Series S and Series X arent hidden behind the PS5s awful frametime graph.....they are literally flat.

People go mental with the framepacing stuff.
I don't feel it in bloodborne ad I don't really feel it too much here. It's just not the smoothest but not end of the world

 

[Panajev2001a]

The one third figure comes from 4 to 12 Tflops, the calculation of Tflops includes clock speed already.
My understanding from everything I've read is that the lower memory bandwidth portion is reserved for the OS at all times and is never used for gaming on Series S.
Would be interested in any link you have that says otherwise?

There are not just shader ALU’s (hence the TFLOPS count), but you ignored this argument comparing XSX and PS5, so I kind of thought you would say the same here… geometry engine, triangle rasteriser, ROPS, etc… there is a whole bunch of logic that is shared between XSX and XSS (the same at best, not sure if you have the same number of ROPS and other units for example)… so lower clockspeed brings the performance of those parts down further.

 

[Three]

Its never flat on XSS and XSX?
Are you color blind or do you just not understand how frametime graphs work?

The PS5s graph never sits stable for more than like one frame and is constantly fluctuating up and down.
The Series consoles stabilize for large swaths of the demo....the PS5 literally never does.

When the frame rate advantage is below 1fps but the frame pacing is totally totally off.....constantly.
The system with a stable frametime graph will actually feel like its playing better and without an actual FPS counter you would think the PS5 is dropping frames.
Thats what improper framepacing does....its a worse experience overall than having a few drops here and there.
Its why frametimes are actually a better metric of a games performance than using such a large average as fps.

But anotherone.gif amarite?
That fps advantage with improper framepacing for the win!

^The Series S and Series X arent hidden behind the PS5s awful frametime graph.....they are literally flat.

What a wierd and roundabout way of saying framepacing issues. Framepacing isn't the same as performance though so glad we cleared that up.

 

[Black_Stride]

People go mental with the framepacing stuff.
I don't feel it in bloodborne ad I don't really feel it too much here. It's just not the smoothest but not end of the world

Im not trying to go mental.
Its just given the choice.
Id rather have "proper" framepacing and a lower average and by lower average i mean 27.4(PS5) 27.3(XSX).

If it was possible to have a framerate mode and a framepacing mode for bloodbourne you would almost certainly choose the framepacing mode because the overall actual feel of the game would be better with proper framepacing because improper framepacing makes it seem like the game is dropping frames even if it isnt actually dropping that badly if at all.

 

[Riky]

There are not just shader ALU’s (hence the TFLOPS count), but you ignored this argument comparing XSX and PS5, so I kind of thought you would say the same here… geometry engine, triangle rasteriser, ROPS, etc… there is a whole bunch of logic that is shared between XSX and XSS (the same at best, not sure if you have the same number of ROPS and other units for example)… so lower clockspeed brings the performance of those parts down further.

So you don't know.
You forgot to mention your split memory claim, where have you seen the 2gb OS reserve can be used for games?

 

[Black_Stride]

What a wierd and roundabout way of saying framepacing issues. Framepacing isn't the same as performance though so glad we cleared that up.

A frametime graph shows you how framepacing is going.
What are you on about mate.
And frametimes are a more accurate measure of performance than framerates.
We just sit on framerates because you can take long benchmarks and get an "overall" average where as frametimes measure actual moment to moment gaming.....you know....as in when you are actually playing the game.

 

[SSfox]

it's incredible that you start your whining about a demo that shows off UE5 great capabilities and is FREE to download

maybe elitist gamers like you are the problem why we dont see any advancements in graphics.

go and play Tetris in 8k @ 240hz

Thing is some people don't get is that games always need extra (we're talking about month to a year) time for more polish, the framerate and other weirdness in the Matrix demo can be fix but it will take some extra time, polishing demos is 99999% absolutely and must be done for games, but wasting time for polishing a demo isn't worth in the other hand. Tho i can see it having some patches in futures, even tho it's not something i care about, to me this demo was just a way to highlight and show on what UE5 can do, and that's it, not like a it's a real full game or something.

 

[Three]

A frametime graph shows you how framepacing is going.
What are you on about mate.
And frametimes are a more accurate measure of performance than framerates.
We just sit on framerates because you can take long benchmarks and get an "overall" average where as frametimes measure actual moment to moment gaming.....you know....as in when you are actually playing the game.

No they're not. Framepacing issues are frame pacing issues. You could have a 60fps game with framepacing issues and a game that barely maintains 30fps without any framepacing issues. Which is performing better?

Framepacing is just timing in delivering the frames. You get a quick 16ms frame then a longer 33ms or more one. Some people are more sensitive to it than others.

 

[SlimySnake]

I'd swallow 1080p, but 30fps?

Nope.

It seems i posted this is the wrong thread.

I don’t think people realize that this is using hardware accelerated lumens which is the highest quality setting on PCs Valley off the Ancient demo.

Epic had said back then that the ps5 and xsx will target only 1080p when using rt accelerators. Medium quality lumens targets 1440p 30 fps. It is also using RT for reflections which is typically a 35% performance hit on the gpu compared to regular SSR reflections.

What im saying is that devs will stick to medium lumens and no RT reflections to get a stable framerate and high enough resolution. Especially in big open worlds. This is basically the peak of what’s possible next Gen. hell, you might even get 60 fps modes at this 1080p resolution and medium lumens Lighting we saw in the first two UE5 demos.


I forsee three modes
1440p-1800p 30 fps non rt mode
1080p 60 fps non rt mode
1080p 30 fps rt mode


All i know if that the chase scene looked so real i thought i was playing a fmv. It wasn’t until my second play through did I recognize the streets and highways I had driven in the open world section. They are able to really push the lighting quality and LODs when they have you locked in a an onrails section. Its like how NDs cutscenes look way better than their gameplay models, only this time epic can push cutscene quality models and lighting during linear gameplay.

 

[RoboFu]

Yeah I figure it’s either random lod issues for each or someone just takes a pic
During the split sec lod on one and right afte on the other.
I’ve played around with both versions and they both have instances of split second lod load ins.

 

[Coolwhhip]

It runs like absolute doo doo.

Who cares, games are created to look good in screenshots.

 

[McCheese]

The performance of this demo on the S is too unacceptable for a retail product, that console could end up doing PS5 exclusives a big favour later this generation.

 

[elliot5]

The performance of this demo on the S is too unacceptable for a retail product, that console could end up doing PS5 exclusives a big favour later this generation.

This isn't a retail product

 

[rofif]

It runs like absolute doo doo.

Still better than any xbox 360 game lol

 

[SlimySnake]

Thing is some people don't get is that games always need extra (we're talking about month to a year) time for more polish, the framerate and other weirdness in the Matrix demo can be fix but it will take some extra time, polishing demos is 99999% absolutely and must be done for games, but wasting time for polishing a demo isn't worth in the other hand. Tho i can see it having some patches in futures, even tho it's not something i care about, to me this demo was just a way to highlight and show on what UE5 can do, and that's it, not like a it's a real full game or something.

This would be true in most cases but this demo is basically an ad. A very expensive potentially a $50-100 million project given just how many people worked on it.

You also seem to be forgetting that the demo was optimized by Coalition Games on the xsx and xss. The version you are seeing has been polished to oblivion. There is a reason why the xss is running 720p to xsx’s 1080p. Xss typically only offers a quarter of resolution of xsx titles. So we could’ve been looking at a 512p title like metro exodus had coalition not gone in there and downgraded some settings to keep it at least hd resolutions.

The epic engineers must have been doing the same thing on the ps5 version which I’m assuming was the lead or base platform. They said their target was console specs so they only pushed visuals until they hit their 1080p 30 fps budget. Then they likely started reducing graphics settings but we won’t know which ones until we get PC versions. I’m pretty sure console equivalent rtx cards like the rtx 2080 should run this at 1440p 30 fps due to better ray tracing performance, but make no mistake this thing is definitely optimized on consoles.

 

[Black_Stride]

No they're not. Framepacing issues are frame pacing issues. You could have a 60fps game with framepacing issues and a game that barely maintains 30fps without any framepacing issues. Which is performing better?

Framepacing is just timing in delivering the frames. You get a quick 16ms frame then a longer 33ms or more one. Some people are more sensitive to it than others.

We are talking about two systems that both run this demo at 1080p30.
Why are you bringing up 60fps?

Listen mate.
Its fine...if you believe a game with constantly fluctuating frametimes is performing better than a game that has more fixed frametimes while maintaining the same framerate then thats fine.
Im guessing you only have one of the systems so havent actually experienced the difference between stable frametimes and improper frametimes.

I see no reason to keep this discussion going.

Dont @ me.

 

[SlimySnake]

The performance of this demo on the S is too unacceptable for a retail product, that console could end up doing PS5 exclusives a big favour later this generation.

? The game performs the same on every console according to the nx gamer analysis. Every console struggles to run this smoothly. They are pushing all consoles to their limits. I can easily tank the framerate in the ps5 with some reckless driving though when flying at high speeds and running the game is a stable 30 fps. I’m assuming the same is true on Series s

 

[SSfox]

This would be true in most cases but this demo is basically an ad. A very expensive potentially a $50-100 million project given just how many people worked on it.

You also seem to be fighting that the demo was optimized by Coalition Games on the xsx and xss. The version you are seeing has been polished to oblivion. There is a reason why the xss is running 720p to xsx’s 1080p. Xss typically only offers a quarter of resolution of xsx titles. So we could’ve been looking at a 512p title like metro exodus had coalition not gone in there and downgraded some settings to keep it at least hd resolutions.

The epic engineers must have been doing the same thing on the ps5 version which I’m assuming was the lead or base platform. They said their target was console specs so they only pushed visuals until they hit their 1080p 30 fps budget. Then they likely started reducing graphics settings but we won’t know which ones until we get PC versions. I’m pretty sure console equivalent rtx cards like the rtx 2080 should run this at 1440p 30 fps due to better ray tracing performance, but make no mistake this thing is definitely optimized on consoles.

The epic engineers are way more busy making skins for Fortnite imo.

I very highly doubt this thing will be optimized tbh. GTA6 is gonna destroy this demo and will be above 1080p (at least 1440P)

 

[Leyasu]

It must be said that this happens at times when you drive at high speed through hundreds of vehicles that are also destroyed and damaged by impacts. Surely in a normal game they would reduce the speed and damage that in this demo are fantastic. I wish we saw a driving game with that level of damage to the vehicles.

At the end of the day it is just a test demo. UE5 games when they come will be optimised.

This is not something to war over. Unfortunately some won’t see it that way

 

[Black_Stride]

The performance of this demo on the S is too unacceptable for a retail product, that console could end up doing PS5 exclusives a big favour later this generation.

If you use framerate and frametimes as a performance metric......its the best performing version of the demo?

P.S Not a retail product.
Its a public facing tech demo....if you paid for it on your Series S you should ask for a refund.

P.P.S Imma guess you dont have a Series S which begs the question why are so many none Series S owners so concerned about the Series S.
While Series S owners are just happy this thing can actually play all these game.

 

[Ma-Yuan]

Played it on my ps5 and a friend's xsx and I can feel it's worse on xsx fps based. But somehow looked clearer on xsx. I have an LG oled and he has an qled from Samsung.

 

[SlimySnake]

The epic engineers are way more busy making skins for Fortnite imo.

I very highly doubt this thing will be optimized tbh. GTA6 is gonna destroy this demo and will be above 1080p (at least 1440P)

I think i said this in another thread but i don’t think other engines can do this. Nanite is in a league of its own and You will not get unlimited deal like this in other engines unless they create their own mesh or primitive shader based engines. Even then epic has resources and engineers even Rockstar and Naughty Sox don’t have access to. They are working with Hollywood cg houses on asset creation. Their CTO is literally the guy who invented bullet time in the first Matrix. They literally went out and bought the mega scans company quixel.

Rockstar and ND might have great lighting, great character models, hair and ray traced reflections but nanite is the game changer here. Ubisoft’s snow drop engine looks stunning but it still looks like a game. Whereas the matrix demo at least in the chase scene looked real.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

• Series S: 720p-756p (along with reduced world detail, reduced pedestrian/car count, less geometry and more aggressive LOD)

But that engineering tho!

 

[buenoblue]

It does look nice don't get me wrong but playing a modern open world game at 1440p-4k at 60fps on pc looks and feels better to me.