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[Opinion] April 2023 is the beginning of the end for Xbox as we know it.

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We've yet to actually see the first real wave of exclusives from their other recent acquisitions so it's difficult to assess where they stand.

If Xbox is in a very distant third place in a few years and they're still not making profit on the hardware itself then it might be time to call it a wrap trying to compete in the console space and refocus on Gamepass for PC, "Xbox" Cloud Gaming, and putting their games on other consoles where they may sell better.

The future of gaming in general is in a weird place anyway. Most of us assume we'll still be buying dedicated gaming consoles in 15 years, but that's not a certainty.
 

Nautilus

Banned
This is when Nintendo is a competition.
Until then, they are a complementary system that goes with pc/Xbox/ps.
Lol.

Anyone that believes that is delusional. Probably a few people at Sony thought so too, and before they knew it, they gave Nintendo a monopoly over Japan.

So sure, go ahead and keep thinking like that. Once you realize how wrong you are, it will be too late. Much like what happened in Japan.
 

feynoob

Member
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Your dedication is unmatched.
 
If there is one point from this debate that makes sense, it’s that MS may be done with selling their consoles at a significant loss. That certainly squares with Series X only being available in bundles and the price being increased in certain regions. If they see consoles as just one avenue to play Xbox games, and increasingly so in the future, it makes sense. But that doesn’t mean they will stop producing consoles.
 

feynoob

Member
Lol.

Anyone that believes that is delusional. Probably a few people at Sony thought so too, and before they knew it, they gave Nintendo a monopoly over Japan.

So sure, go ahead and keep thinking like that. Once you realize how wrong you are, it will be too late. Much like what happened in Japan.
Again, Nintendo needs to have strong system that can run current games.
If Xbox leaves gaming, people will only buy PS to play those games.
 

Nautilus

Banned
Again, Nintendo needs to have strong system that can run current games.
If Xbox leaves gaming, people will only buy PS to play those games.
There is PC for that, so PS wouldn't be that much of a monopoly.

But you never thought of the possibility that people wouldn't care to get a PS system and just stick with a Switch? And sure, miss on those games? That's what happening on Japan, and third parties are scrambling to get their games on Switch.

Or you know, have the Switch as the main platform, and for any game that misses it, complement its gaming portifolia with a PC? Which everyone has one today.
 
It's bad for Xbox, very bad but with the money Microsoft has and all the investment in this they've done, they'll never let it go

Even though I have zero interest in an Xbox console since I have a ps5, switch and PC gamepass, they need to keep going for competition and push Sony in the ass
 

onQ123

Member
This man has been predicting Xbox's downfall for years now while we have all been clueless.
Xbox isn't going to fall at all but Xbox Consoles is going to reach the point where Microsoft will decide it's not needed as much & will be sold in limited quantities.
 

feynoob

Member
There is PC for that, so PS wouldn't be that much of a monopoly.

But you never thought of the possibility that people wouldn't care to get a PS system and just stick with a Switch? And sure, miss on those games? That's what happening on Japan, and third parties are scrambling to get their games on Switch.

Or you know, have the Switch as the main platform, and for any game that misses it, complement its gaming portifolia with a PC? Which everyone has one today.
It's not that hard to understand.

If you are a console person, and there is only one system that can run those games, you are going to buy that system.

That is the point here. Ps can run switch games, but switch can't run those ps games.

Unless Nintendo makes a switch that can run ps games, then people will buy ps only for those games.
 

Rea

Member
Xbox should not leave its console business instead they should hire better consultants or management to make good games and push those out in timely manner. Look at how Sony's putting out games after games. I want Xbox to be competitive.
 

supernova8

Banned
I'm assuming Microsoft's long-term goal (regardless of their M&A activities) is to have Xbox as a pure cloud-based service but I don't think it'll happen until latency is so low (which is a combination of server side improvements and just people all over the world in general having really fast internet, even in slightly poorer countries) that it's barely (or not) noticeable at all.

I kinda started to think there's less and less reason to even have a physical Xbox console if they're going to have so few Xbox exclusive titles that take advantage of the hardware in unique ways. Then again, I don't think it's by design, I think it's just a case of shit management at the executive level and the studio level. I doubt that Microsoft is intentionally tanking its game studios to give itself a reason to kill off Xbox as a physical console (not that you claimed it was, just saying).

So while I kinda agree that Xbox as a physical console will disappear (at some point, probably not for another two generations), I don't think it really has anything to do with the ActiBliz deal (falling through as it looks like will happen).
 
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Robb

Gold Member
ABK is a huge setback for sure, we’ll see what happens. All I know is they’ve had record breaking quarters for Xbox during this gen (I.e. even better than during 360 iirc) so I can’t see them leaving the home console business any time soon.

Consoles haven’t been their main focus for quite a while but I think they still want to be in that sphere, even if it might be delegated to a streaming box in the future rather than something we consider as a traditional system.
 

Braag

Member
I know many in GAF would love nothing more than to see Xbox be completely gone. But understand that it's better to have them around and pose some sort of threat to Sony. Sony is a market leader, but having competition will always be better for the consumer. It keeps them fighting with quality of games and which one provides a better value.
Despite today's people loving nothing more than their favorite corporation turn into a monopoly, it would ultimately be a very bad thing for the consumer.
 

SHA

Member
I feel like you, but your post sadly do not go enough in detail into facts that would go towards a downfall of Xbox but more on what you would want them to do/ want to do if you were in their place. So I will respond to your points and explain why none of them are good enough in my opinion on their own to be signs of Xbox going third party:

The PS3 era could have been the exact same situation, but in reverse if you have just a little bad faith. The case is not as dire now, and Xbox not being as good as Sony in making consoles is not a problem (and that can be debatable, with the One X being prefered by some compared to the PS4 pro). They knew that and planned accordingly. They have already paid the costs for this generation and leaving now would be a waste. They are profitable too, just not as much as Playstation.

Microsoft believe in Gamepass. Normal then to gain less from direct sales. This is again a choice from them. You can disagree with their strategy, as I do, but this is volontary and so should no be a problem unless theirs pland fail somewhere else, or they underestimate the loss/ the gains they want elsewere.

Gamepass is there for the long term. Them not sharing numbers is a clue that it is not as good as they want, and they have admitted as such themselves. But being slow to gain market share and not gaining enough are very different matters, so not really a problem on it's own.


The sales point and Gamepass numbers are the same story in this case: they are going up, just not good enough. As you are talking about the downfall of Xbox, and not their success compared to Sony, the PS5 domination is irrelevant as the Wii success did not made the Xbox 360 and PS3 doomed to failure, just made it harder for them to prosper. You should compare Xbox to failures like the Gamecube(beaten by the first Xbox for GOD sake) and the Wii U. Both consoles were worse failures than the Series and Nintendo did recover so no reason for Xbox not to try the same.

This is more what you want/ believe, not reality. Why Xbox was not axed after the Xbox one reveal fiasco? Because Phil Spencer convinced them to continue. He got the job close to the end of 2014. Gamepass was a thing in 2017. The gap is big enough to believe that Phil could have tried to compete without this and going another way if he wanted. Of course Microsoft want for Xbox to be profitable. They are now in for the long term. You do not try a 69 billions acquisition otherwise. And they are still trying to buy ABK so they need Xbox to do so. Xbox consumers who have a console are more easily converted to Gamepass than PC players so consoles still matters to Microsoft.

Once again, I feel the same way. As I do not own a Xbox console, had never played Xbox top games outside of a few sessions a decade ago, and do not lives in the US they have never tried to please me like Sony did. So I see their failures a lot more easily than their success. And prefer them to fail and go away than possibly harm any chances of Sony continuing to give me what I have been experiencing since the PS2, because their consoles and their exclusives are some of my best gaming memories. Xbox going third party is giving me more games to play on my PS5:messenger_sunglasses:

But what I want/ would do is not what they want or are doing. They believe on Gamepass now. And may continue for years to try. We will see what happens at E3. Even if it is not logical, a few people have asked if Starfield would be on PS5 after the CMA rejection. I want to believe, as my PC is a 1060 and even if I do have a 3060 in a portable PC I feel that the Pc version will be shit even more than usual if Tlou part I port and Jedi fallen order 2 are any indication.
The last of us came out of nowhere as well as other hit titles, they need something like that to stay healthy, acquiring doesn't please everyone, even on Sonys side, it just shows their weaknesses and hide their strengths.
 
I want the Xbox brand strong because competition is good

I want it to go back to 360 era form.

Great new IPs, getting Final Fantasy and Metal Gear, great offerings for Xbox Live Gold and etc.

Instead of improving the basics, they chose to go with Game Pass and that is not working for them at all.

Dont know if they can steer this ship, honestly, because they've invested too much money on GP and they would have to invest billions more to change their strategy

Dont think they will end the Xbox brand or anything like that, but they will keep on failing and burning money for quite a while
Some of us are starting to theorize that it is BECAUSE MS is propping Xbox up artificially, that Xbox couldn't deliver after so long. That Xbox is just not feeling the burn of market forces because their survival doesn't require them to succeed.

If you know you can't be fired no matter how bad you are at your job, would you ever bother to work hard? Sure, the lower level employees get fired. but the leaders in Xbox are basically immune to the effects of their inability to improve the brand. And this wouldn't be fix no matter how much money you throw at it; in fact it is BECAUSE of all that money thrown at it. By hiding their failures Xbox can pretend they don't actually have anything to improve on. That everything is fine forever.
 

Nautilus

Banned
It's not that hard to understand.

If you are a console person, and there is only one system that can run those games, you are going to buy that system.

That is the point here. Ps can run switch games, but switch can't run those ps games.

Unless Nintendo makes a switch that can run ps games, then people will buy ps only for those games.
And Switch has games that PS doesn't have. If people who like gaming prefers them, whose system do you think they will choose? And just because you are a console player doesn't mean you can't change to PC, especially since PC gaming isn't much different to console gaming these days.

This concept is not that hard to understand.
 

Heisenberg007

Gold Journalism
ABK is a huge setback for sure, we’ll see what happens. All I know is they’ve had record breaking quarters for Xbox during this gen (I.e. even better than during 360 iirc) so I can’t see them leaving the home console business any time soon.

Consoles haven’t been their main focus for quite a while but I think they still want to be in that sphere, even if it might be delegated to a streaming box in the future rather than something we consider as a traditional system.
The quarterly revenue numbers, especially when compared with previous generations, can be very misleading. I'd personally not pay too much attention only to the revenue number, because:
  • The gaming industry itself has grown in terms of userbase, which means higher revenue generation after generation.
  • Games have become more expensive.
  • MTXs have become huge, leading to inflated revenue.
  • More importantly, Xbox has increased its studios from 5 to 23. They combined the revenue of those 18 studios and added to Microsoft's balance sheet, including games with live-service elements and recurring revenue, e.g., Minecraft, Elder Scrolls, Fallout, etc.
Most importantly, we don't know the operating expenditure required to generate $16 billion of yearly Xbox revenue.
 
predictions aside, I would prefer to be in the Nintendo Sega Sony timeline rather than the Nintendo Microsoft Sony timeline.

I also wouldn't mind a theoretical Nintedo Sega Microsoft, either.

Even more theoretical, Nintendo Sega Valve would be killer.

All I will contribute to this thread is vague theory since this seems to be a theorycraft thread.
 
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quest

Not Banned from OT
The quarterly revenue numbers, especially when compared with previous generations, can be very misleading. I'd personally not pay too much attention only to the revenue number, because:
  • The gaming industry itself has grown in terms of userbase, which means higher revenue generation after generation.
  • Games have become more expensive.
  • MTXs have become huge, leading to inflated revenue.
  • More importantly, Xbox has increased its studios from 5 to 23. They combined the revenue of those 18 studios and added to Microsoft's balance sheet, including games with live-service elements and recurring revenue, e.g., Minecraft, Elder Scrolls, Fallout, etc.
Most importantly, we don't know the operating expenditure required to generate $16 billion of yearly Xbox revenue.

The high performance console market has not grown at all in generations its still 200 million. Same as the 360 and ps2 generations. The high performance console competitors just give and take market share from each other.
 

HTK

Banned
I don't want to see Xbox gone by any means. I truly believe they have some good games and if they execute they will be fine. But I'm also not opposed to Xbox becoming a 3rd party publisher and puts their games on PlayStation/Nintendo either.

I don't know, I think my argument was always that competition is good so I don't want to see them gone but at the same time they haven't truly competed with Sony since the 360 era...
 

Neff

Member
sony and nintendo need to be kept in check.

Sony and Nintendo were just fine keeping each other in check, with a little 'help' from Sega. And it's not like Microsoft is being competitive enough to keep anyone in check these days.
 

RAIDEN1

Member
Sony won't forever be "on top" as they say nothing lasts forever...but could Microsoft end up like Sega? Maybe....but for me I don't personally see the appeal of getting a PS5 as of right now...there is just not enough games for it to warrant the purchase....(in terms of exclusive games...but then it all depends if you are a fan of the Gran Turismos and the Horizon Forbidden wests sort of games..) where as the Xbox does have its great B.C catalogue with titles that have not been bettered to this day...and one great semi-arcade racer in Forza Horizon and Motorsport, where you can't even get that on the PS5 with Motorstorm...let alone Ridge Racer...
 
Xbox should not leave its console business instead they should hire better consultants or management to make good games and push those out in timely manner. Look at how Sony's putting out games after games. I want Xbox to be competitive.

Having a good console gen/ cycle takes years of planning ahead. Game development takes years, which is why people called out Xbox for launching the Series X/S with no first party games. This is were the "bad management" criticism comes in. Its too late for them to pivot right now, the showcase in June will really show if this situation will have any light at the end of tunnel.

They have 23 studios so they can't just "shut down" which is why I think they will become a 3rd party publisher if hardware sales don't improve.

Sony still needs to convince people to buy there products whether Xbox is in the console market or not, them being in the console market doesn't do anything for Sony to be competitive because they have not been a real contender since the Xbox 360 in 2005.
 
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Nydius

Member
I don’t want Xbox to die, I just want them to do better with what they’ve already got. I’m a broken record on the point of all the properties and studios Microsoft once owned and simply left to die. Had they invested the same time, money, and effort into letting them grow as they have in chasing trends (Kinect) and acquisitions, they could easily be toe-to-toe with Sony.

Unfortunately, right now, very little of Microsoft’s first party output appeals to me. Halo and Gears feel extremely dated and they haven’t been as good as they were when they were run by their original creators. Forza Horizon is the only first party Xbox game I consistently play. Starfield is the only forthcoming exclusive I’m at all interested in.

If I’m brutally honest, the only reason I own an Xbox is because most of my friends— both online and IRL — went to the Xbox in the 360 era and never switched back. If a multiplatform game lacks cross play, I end up buying it on Xbox for only that reason; If every multiplayer game were crossplay, I’d only have a Switch and PS5.

I would like Microsoft to give me a reason to want their console, without buying studios to get there. Game Pass isn’t really driving that want factor when the “All Games“ list increasingly looks like a shovelware PC games shelf at an OfficeMax circa 2006.
 
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calistan

Member
Oh such an interesting clickbai...uh opinion OP wants to share with the community. Would be a shame If someone accidentally pressed the ignore thread button.
I had no idea the forum had such a feature! Fantastic, all Activision takeover wars gone in 5, 4, 3, 2 ..........
 

onQ123

Member
The reason why Sony is in this position is because of Xbox. No competition is not good for the consumer. You do not want Xbox to leave the console market. That would be very bad!
Say what?


PlayStation entered the market against 2 giants at the time Nintendo & Sega but it was PlayStation that broke the glass ceiling to reach 100 million , PS2 didn't really have any competition from Dreamcast, Xbox & GameCube but went on to be one of the greatest consoles of all time.

PS3 had the most competition Xbox 360 hit the market early & was picking up 3rd party deals before PS3 could even get it together then Nintendo came with a whole new concept The Wii , PS3 struggled to get it together.


PS4 mopped the floor with the competition & now PS5 is doing the same .
 

nemiroff

Gold Member
I sorta thought you were a level headed guy (edit: No, that was the other Heisenberg..) that didn't care about clickbait shit, but this is cringe as fuck.

Disclaimer: I agree that Microsoft will stop making consoles at some point - But so will everyone else. ..Also, at some point the sun will run out of fuel and eventually collapse in on itself and take us with it (well, there'd be no life left before that stage).



EDIT: Fuck, I just realized I've mistaken you for HeisenbergFX4, lol. Now the world makes sense again.
 
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Daneel Elijah

Gold Member
The last of us came out of nowhere as well as other hit titles, they need something like that to stay healthy, acquiring doesn't please everyone, even on Sonys side, it just shows their weaknesses and hide their strengths.
I agree. But buying a studio can allow both partners to be better together. Like Sony and Insomniac, Housemarque... Xbox is doing the same with Hellblade 2 devellopers. But doing it the way Xbox seems to have been doing, only looking from a financial lens, is not a good idea in my opinion.
The reason why Sony is in this position is because of Xbox. No competition is not good for the consumer. You do not want Xbox to leave the console market. That would be very bad!
Competition : the act or process of trying to get or win something (such as a prize or a higher level of success) that someone else is also trying to get or win : the act or process of competing. When you compete you have to see winners emerge sometimes. This allow for new competitors to see the success and its rewards and to enter the game. If Xbox is not good enough, let someone else compete. Sega leaving allowed Xbox to enter, or at least to use some of Sega games and executives to enter more easily.
I appreciate your detailed response and added context.

I'd like to mention one thing, however. They didn't abandon Xbox because Phil convinced them that things will change.

Things haven't changed though, which is why I think Microsoft will be quicker this time to abandon the consoles because they have already once tried to keep it going.
True, but with this renewed emphasis on Xbox came a greater scrutiny. Nadella himself seems to be all in now. Their plan was already made when they froze their consoles hardware specifications, before 2020 at the least. I do not think that they had planned then to buy ABK. The strategy that they had, of going all in on Gamepass, and to sandwitch Sony between 2 consoles have been made in concert with Microsoft highter ups, unlike the One X who was all Spencer as far as I know. So all the problems that they have now are also in theory looked at by Microsoft and not just Xbox management. What we are seeing is either errors in execution, like Halo Infinite, and errors in planning, like them not predicting Sony going for a 500$ console, and the PS5 DE. None of that is destroying the brand. They just really suck at being a Sony clone, if all you want in a console is what Sony have been doing with Playstation.

But from Microsoft perspective the Gamepass dream is as good now as it was when they made their plans a few years ago: the tech had not changed that much, Sony is still incapable to do what they can do, and the others tech giants like Google and Apple are not moving against them. You and I can believe that they will continue to suck a making games, but from their perspective it is just a question of what can be done to be big enough for Gamepass to be inevitable? And I honestly believe that they are not that far from the tipping point. They just need to have good games. It should not be that hard. Maybe they will try it more in the future?
 
The way Microsoft has been attempting to buy up the biggest 3rd party companies and not selling as much hardware, it's definitely a possibility. Especially if they are trying to get gamepass on everything.
 

Banjo64

cumsessed
Can’t say I agree OP. I think they’ve taken losses for 20 years but desperately want to be the only choice in people’s living rooms. That was why the console was created and that’s why o think they’re sticking with it.
 

TLZ

Banned
But you never thought of the possibility that people wouldn't care to get a PS system and just stick with a Switch? And sure, miss on those games? That's what happening on Japan
If that's the case you'd see it happening now, but it's not.

Japan is another story and you know why. You said the reason in another thread, remember?
 

RAIDEN1

Member
Let's not forget Nintendo left the horsepower race in 2006 with the rise of the Wii...so any notion of Microsoft exiting and then Nintendo coming back to give Sony a run for their money is all just hot air....they are fine with the Switch Mk2 being on the level of a base-line PS4 at the most...(if we are lucky..)
 

Nautilus

Banned
If that's the case you'd see it happening now, but it's not.

Japan is another story and you know why. You said the reason in another thread, remember?
If anything, people are buying both consoles worldwide, either because they want a PS5 to complement their Switch, or vice versa.But they are competing with each other. Iwata said it best: All entertainment compete to win your time. And that's especially true for companies making games, even if it is for different systems.

Japan is just a very clear example of Nintendo being extremely competitive there with games that have more appeal to that audience, with Sony completely ignoring them and not doing enough games to appeal to them.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
My thoughts:

Phil Spencer has remained in charge despite the less than stellar performance of the Xbox brand over the last decade because he's in-tune with MS' overall vision and steering for the future. The amount of financial backing he's been given by Nadella is unparalleled, and that speaks volumes to me.

Personally, I don't believe MS as a corporation has ever seen games and gaming as being a key pillar of their business. Historically its a tough market due to volatility in public taste and the presence of deeply entrenched competitors like Sony and Nintendo, companies that have an existential need to retain their position as its absolutely key to their revenue stream.

The question is why in recent years have they felt the need to invest tens of billions into Xbox despite limited past success?

If you focus on that specifically, it seems to me that it cannot be due to the console market, because that hasn't grown explosively over the years. Its still a situation where the top-selling brands are likely to shift a combined 200-300m units over any given generation.

What has changed however is the way that gaming has become a monetizable product across every type of device and internet enabled platform.

Now, that's the sort of opportunity that a mega corporation like MS is willing to go to war for, because dominance over that massive market is a true difference maker for anyone or anything. Its a king-maker.

In my estimation, this is what MS cares about, and they are aiming to capture that market using Xbox as a bridge-head. This makes good sense as although consoles aren't the most lucrative sector, it is where the most investment is made in terms of product development and marketing. Untold fortunes are made in mobile, but there are relatively few "name" brands exclusive to that class of device. Something like Minecraft, which started on PC then migrated out literally everywhere is precisely the sort of product they need, because ultimately their "perfect" product offer is one that fits their service offering wherever its deployed.

This is why ABK is so appealing, why they were willing to offer a premium over market valuation and inevitably stir up a hornet's nest in order to close the deal. It represents a collection of famous brands that will drive sales everywhere.

The way the buyout has been presented as an Xbox vs PlayStation thing is a smokescreen. Its never been about the console market solely. That's just one battlefield in a multi-front war.

With Xcloud they have the delivery tech, with Azure they have the back-bone to support the tech at global scale, they are just missing the product to populate the service across all markets. Xbox was never going to be enough by itself because its never ever been the market-leader in the limited sector its been competing in, let alone mobile and PC which are equally important for deployment.

In my view they prop up Xbox for 2 main reasons: Firstly because there will always be a need for standardization across their product offer. Secondly because its an established public-facing brand that they can market based off of.

Other than that, I'm sure they'd be much happier if Xbox was just an app and a line of accessories.
 
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