Morrie’s wig shop
Member
Physics based gameplay will always remain king. It’s why 10s of millions of people bought this game. It’s why 10s of millions of people are still playing Skyrim
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Game Dev "Nintendo's out here making people look like fools on hardware that's literally tenfold what the Switch is"
- Thread starter GigaBowser
- Start date
- Analysis Game Dev Hype
BlackTron
Member
It gets really easy to spot who has played the game, and who hasn't lol
daclynk
Member
I see so much salt in this thread. No one is saying Nintendo invented Physics. Dev are impressed that all the systems work together naturally and its doing all that on a 7yr old tablet without breaking and that Impressive oh and its only 18Gigs. That crazy.
Why cant people see that if not blinded by their BS.
Why cant people see that if not blinded by their BS.
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Griffon
Member
I've seen similar contraption made in gary's mod in 2006, all running on my shitty single-thread PC from 2004. Thinking about it I'm not that surprised that a modern console from 2017 can do it better. Also make sense that both games (Gary's mod and Zelda) use Havok.
This whole "devs are surprised this is possible" has nothing to do with hardware capabilities. But more with the fact that 99% of devs are stuck with the vastly inferior physx physics engine that's been used on Unreal and Unity.
This whole "devs are surprised this is possible" has nothing to do with hardware capabilities. But more with the fact that 99% of devs are stuck with the vastly inferior physx physics engine that's been used on Unreal and Unity.
Guilty_AI
Member
Having them all work together is far more of a design challenge than a hardware one. Saying everyone "thought it was impossible to do this on modern hardware" is very misleading, and false. Its 100% possible and we've seen it, even on older hardware.
Seeing the Switch running this is not surprising. Whats surprising is the time and attention it would've take to balance, tweak and design a world of this size with so many mechanics working in conjuction.
darrylgorn
Member
It's even better when it's running at a competent framerate and resolution.
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SmokedMeat
Gamer™
This is what I love about Nintendo.
Other companies would’ve had you press one button, and a cinematic movie would play of Link creating the bridge.
Literally what this tweet on the first page and within the first few comments is saying:
Sure, you can make the argument that they are using gross overkill to make the point, but you could just as easily argue it in the other direction (that they are being dead serious, albeit jokingly). What you described is a perfectly reasonable and measured way to describe BOTW and TOTK. We don't get that though. We get comments that TOTK is the pinnacle of gaming and that THIS specific form is what developers should be moving towards (well made and seamlessly interconnected systems that are used to navigate boring and unrewarding environmental spaces and solve contrived puzzles tied to character progression that are completely divorced aesthetically from the larger world).
. . .TLDR, it isn't really about what folks are saying NINTENDO can do, it's how they are using it to point to (incorrectly) what the industry can't.
Jinzo Prime
Member
Tears of the Kingdom proves that "limitation breeds creativity." The Switch makes it impossible to push graphics so the devs had to do something else.
Gojiira
Member
You can have systems at the expense of texture quality, lighting, performance, etc etc everything has a cost.
Theres a reason TotK looks like a PS2 game…
If devs wanted to do a physics heavy game on current consoles they absolutely could. While its a marvel I wish people would stop the hyperbole, yes its cool but its no more impressive than say the water physics Hydrophobia had like a decade ago, or the seemless dimension hopping in Rift Apart more recently.
Theres a reason TotK looks like a PS2 game…
If devs wanted to do a physics heavy game on current consoles they absolutely could. While its a marvel I wish people would stop the hyperbole, yes its cool but its no more impressive than say the water physics Hydrophobia had like a decade ago, or the seemless dimension hopping in Rift Apart more recently.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Its not even that. The maths behind rigid body physics isn't especially expensive computationally speaking; there are lot of much subtler effects that cost way more.
The issue is basically one of resource balancing. If your static geometry is super detailed then your dynamics need to be on the same level or it'll just look wrong and janky.
If in that Zelda vs Horizon video Aloy could cut trees down they'd have to put a ton more work into presenting the various elements at a level of visual fidelity appropriate to the rest of the scene. You can't have a cartoony transition of a tree transforming into a neatly cylindrical log into a neat stack of firewood with a couple blade swings without completely changing the visual character of the scene.
Zelda works because it simplifies the presentation holistically without compromising on the fidelity of the dynamics.
Its great work, incredibly artful and intelligent, but nothing magical or miraculous!
G Gojira
Well said, fluid mechanics is way, way, more taxing.
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DeltaPolarBear
Member
There was a time when all game developers strive to have no major bugs. That they were ashamed of the bugs that were found.
One record of this ancient past was an interview with Capcom concerning the launch of Street Fighter 2 in the arcades. One developer was horrified at the bugs that was found.
History of Street Fighter 2 production
Nintendo literally invented the Badge of Quality for gaming. They survived the previous game crash and want nothing to do with that ever again.
One record of this ancient past was an interview with Capcom concerning the launch of Street Fighter 2 in the arcades. One developer was horrified at the bugs that was found.
History of Street Fighter 2 production
Nintendo didn't do anything new; they were simply old-fashioned and have old fashioned standards. They make toys, digital or not. And releasing a bad toy is unacceptable. Nintendo know they have a reputation to defend. Unlike say with how many of us brush off Bethesda bugs like it is somehow quaint.
Nintendo literally invented the Badge of Quality for gaming. They survived the previous game crash and want nothing to do with that ever again.
daclynk
Member
Who said its impossible?. Then go ask them why the are impressed. When this gen games coming out broken and need apology from Devs. its nice to see some Devs impress with Nintendo doing soo much with little power as to Powerful System doing little with soo much power and a broken and large(up 100gigs) storage space.
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Buggy Loop
Member
And as someone said previously, it’s a management achievement to pull off all these systems without jank.
Some peoples here remind me of the first Halo game discussions we had on this very forum
« Ackhually… Halo didn’t invent vehicules
Ackhually… Halo didn’t invent good AI »
…
The package is more important than individual tidbits.
No shit Zelda didn’t invent physics. Look at the video for Zelda BOTW vs Horizon physics. That’s what peoples are pointing out. AAA games don’t give a shit anymore. We’re not talking about if an indie in his mom’s basement made a cool physics game 20 years ago on PC, we’re talking that TOTK sticks out from a sea of AAA graphical showcases.
I’ve played PC since 1990’s too so please, show me that open world with picking pretty much anything in the environment or enemy drops and tech modules to build whatever I want or merge with weapons or shield? Where’s the game that is basically an acme factory and is still with a chemistry engine of BOTW quality? Please do tell, I must have missed the most underrated game in PC history.
daclynk
Member
Guilty_AI
Member
Probably cause they never bothered even thinking about making games like these. This whole discussion speaks more of the lackluster state of creativity and game design of the current AAA industry and its devs than what the consoles can and can't do.
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daclynk
Member
And isn't that a Good Thing?
Silver Wattle
Gold Member
Denial? About what exactly? Please go into detail.
Guilty_AI
Member
No, its not. You have a game developer thinking this kind of physics and game systems would be hard to implement on the new consoles, that this kind of systems are somehow ultra taxing on the hardware. Its not.
This speaks volumes about their workflow, how they probably never bothered trying to make a physics engine and would rather just implement some third party software, how they never thought outside the box, how they never try to use all this new advanced hardware to do anything other than prettier graphics.
We have small devs working by themselves designing games creatively like that, using physics and/or a gamma of interesting systems working together to create cool experiences (naturally not with the same amount of custom content TotK has), yet big publishers and devs don't bother with anything other than "cinematic ubisoft open world with tons of cutscenes".
You can't even say its because of money, given the insane amount TotK is selling, they're just creatively bankrupt.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
It's called Mario maker...
Robb
Gold Member
Oh for sure, ND is one of the best in the business and do a lot of cool and interesting stuff.
What I really meant was that the style you’re going for can limit the creative freedom. Seems like Nintendo just thinks of something and goes “this is fun, let’s do it”. Connecting an entire minecart to a shield is an extremely weird concept and will look insanely stupid but it’ll allow for fun stuff so they go with it anyway - and suddenly every player in the game can make their own shield-skateboard as another means of traversal.
Since so many games aim for a realistic/serious style I feel like interesting ideas/concepts like that are likely to just get thrown out the window before development even starts.
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EverydayBeast
thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Best game in terms of savoring big events, comfortably playing from air to ground, eye popping graphics, advised temples, really good combat, there’s a lot of power generated from Nintendo switch and such an intense game in Tears of the Kingdom.
Morrie’s wig shop
Member
I believe the people who viciously hate Nintendo seem to be born between the years 1992-1999ish. The gamers who solely started and played only PlayStation cause well, that’s who was top dog during their rearing lol
Now you move on to the people born in 2000 and beyond love Nintendo as much as Gen-X and millennials, well cause of the Wii …….absolutely fascinating in human behavior.
Now you move on to the people born in 2000 and beyond love Nintendo as much as Gen-X and millennials, well cause of the Wii …….absolutely fascinating in human behavior.
mxbison
Member
There is a reason we get all these static open worlds, even from the big dogs like Rockstar. It's all just facade.
They don't want to deal with all the issues that come with physics. RDR2 doesn't even want to deal with letting the player walk 10 feet in the wrong direction during a mission.
They don't want to deal with all the issues that come with physics. RDR2 doesn't even want to deal with letting the player walk 10 feet in the wrong direction during a mission.
Neff
Member
I never played LBP 2 but Nintendo would never release a platformer with such sloppy mechanics as LBP 1.
"Maybe there's a button around here somewhere to extend the bridge..."
"Try this button, maybe it'll extend the bridge!"
"It worked, now we can cross over using the bridge!"
Fredrik
Member
Nobody said they did. What they did was taking good things from a bunch of games and improved on those things and put the sum of all improved things together into a wonderful new package.
That’s actually exactly how BOTW is done as well. The naysayers only see the things they’ve seen in other games but fail to see the improvements and the sum of all things. I had many discussions with negative people last year about what made Elden Ring so special, another game doing the sum of all things so well. And Starfield is another game doing that later this year. It’s not an uncommon thing in the hobby to be inspired by other well-received games but it takes extra skills to pull it off well and without anything else breaking apart.
MarkMe2525
Member
Wow... What an awful assessment of the situation. Like this may be one of the worst comments I have seen on gaf. I have to believe you really don't think this because if this is true, it says really bad things about your taste and ability to think critically.
Guilty_AI
Member
daveonezero
Banned
Nintendo did what we all wanted from games. PHysics, systems, and content.
Creative people don't think things are "impossible"
They pushed physics further than any other game besides maybe Half Life 2 and Source.
Creative people don't think things are "impossible"
They pushed physics further than any other game besides maybe Half Life 2 and Source.
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Fredrik
Member
Lmao spot on!
And yet Nintendo is the one said to only make games for kids…
The traversal and puzzle spoiler/guide/handholding thing is quite possibly the most annoying thing in the hobby right now. Especially when it’s used in a game with content clearly not made for 3 year olds.
StueyDuck
Member
Immersion is an extremely subjective thing. So your argument is that it makes you feel good?
I'm saying that rdr2 is technically more of an impressive game because it has lots of technical aspects that are far greater and far surpass anything in gaming, even totk. Which has nice physics and some building mechanics.
You may feel immersed sticking a fake penis on a plank but it's not technically anything special where as many have said prior. A multitude of pc/survival games have those elements of gameplay.
Fuz
Banned
Yup. Devs are lazy/incompetent nowadays.
Probably they have too many tools and never had to learn how to properly code.
Fuz
Banned
But it's made for americans.
Shut0wen
Member
You seriously have no idea what your talking about, ttotk is literally one of the best physic based games to come out since half life 2
RaySoft
Member
Game dev blown away by Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom says it "shouldn't be possible on the Switch"
"Nintendo's out here making people look like fools on hardware that's literally tenfold what the Switch is"www.yahoo.com
"Each one of these systems would have been astounding if it was just it by itself. To have it all happening at the same time and all of it to be interconnecting and working and playing nice with each other while the entire Legend of Zelda game, the normal loop that we experience from Breath of the Wild, is just laying right on top, that doesn't seem possible."
"The things that Tears of the Kingdom is doing, it just shouldn't be possible on the Switch. It would be a monumental thing to do on current next-gen consoles, and yet somehow Nintendo has managed to do it on something that amounts to a five year old cellphone."
As Young points out, the Switch is "notorious for having a very weak CPU" and memory speed that's "incredibly slow compared to modern hardware", so to have all of this going on at once and "behaving predictably" is nothing short of miraculous. "Nintendo's out here making people look like fools on hardware that's literally tenfold what the Switch is," he concludes, "and they're doing things that people thought were impossible on modern hardware."
A case of classic Dunning–Kruger effect right there...
Edit: To elaborate... The Zelda team is probably a smaller tight knitted team with experienced seniors VS your regular AAA teams of the day.. Larger teams of more "mainstream" devs that has not ever tinkered at the hw level at all and only have a highlevel "mainstram" programming mind. The seniors (that have) are in minority by comparison. Zelda team probably has more of those hw seniors that makes everyone shine.
A small piece of code can change everything, but to find it you have to know your hardware.
I.e. Quake III would not be the same without this specific piece of algo:
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ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
In that video in OP he did said such systems exist individually in titles such as Gary's Mod and stuffs, but having all of them interconnected and integrated into an open world game is another thing.
Games that integrated such physics well into gameplay, puzzles, combat and everything are Half Life or Portal, but they were made decades ago and still incomparable with what Nintendo has done here.
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Impotaku
Member
Because gamefreak can't program for shit. They kind of got away with it in the older generations when hardware was really basic but as the generations went on you can tell they are struggling. Pokemon could be just as amazing as zelda but it's not nintendo making them it's gamefreak, so unless nintendo do it themselves you are gonna be stuck with buggy jank pokemon sadly.
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Guilty_AI
Member
Honestly we still do get games like that, however few to none of them are as mainstream friendly like TotK. I doubt the average player is interested in playing stuff like Space Engineers or Stormworks.
The more player friendly games like that i can think of are Ctrl Alt Ego and Teardown, but naturally neither has the scale of TotK, even though they're still very well designed and complex in their own merits.
Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
I only have a switch that video was pretty jarring I figured ps5 would be doing same things as Zelda in terms of physics
Fbh
Member
It's true.
Games like TotK are proof that the issue with many modern games has always been on the design side and the over prioritization of graphics and "realism" more than any sort of hardware limitation.
These past 3 years there has been so much talk about "cross gen", about how it's bad and it's holding back games and devs can't do anything new when they have to design stuff accounting for dated jaguar CPU's, etc. Everyone has been anticipating the moment we start getting more next gen exclusives because that's when devs are going to fully utilize these new consoles.
But 90%+ of next gen games are just going to be same Ps4/Xone type games with nicer graphics. Sure we might get some upgrades like faster traversal in open worlds, more seamless transitions from cutscenes to gameplay and fewer loading screens, but the core design is still going to be the exact same. Look at Spiderman 2, finally a big new first party AAA next gen only exclusive and it's just another Spiderman game with marginally better graphics and largely still using the same formula from Arkham City (at least from what they have shown so far).... but I guess the reflections on the water and windows will be more accurate and Peter will have fully rendered 4K pubic hair even if you can't see it.
Games like TotK are proof that the issue with many modern games has always been on the design side and the over prioritization of graphics and "realism" more than any sort of hardware limitation.
These past 3 years there has been so much talk about "cross gen", about how it's bad and it's holding back games and devs can't do anything new when they have to design stuff accounting for dated jaguar CPU's, etc. Everyone has been anticipating the moment we start getting more next gen exclusives because that's when devs are going to fully utilize these new consoles.
But 90%+ of next gen games are just going to be same Ps4/Xone type games with nicer graphics. Sure we might get some upgrades like faster traversal in open worlds, more seamless transitions from cutscenes to gameplay and fewer loading screens, but the core design is still going to be the exact same. Look at Spiderman 2, finally a big new first party AAA next gen only exclusive and it's just another Spiderman game with marginally better graphics and largely still using the same formula from Arkham City (at least from what they have shown so far).... but I guess the reflections on the water and windows will be more accurate and Peter will have fully rendered 4K pubic hair even if you can't see it.
SirTerry-T
Member
Plus there's the fact that the Zelda series has historically been Nintendo's "testing ground" franchise for new gameplay mechanics and ideas.
Why TotK is doing it's thing so well should not be any surprise to anyone who has followed the franchise since that very first title.
Why TotK is doing it's thing so well should not be any surprise to anyone who has followed the franchise since that very first title.
NeverYouMind
Member
For someone that plays Action RPGs for combat like me and is averse to puzzles, TOTK mechanics suck ass. For someone that loves platforming games, ToTK mechanics suck ass.
ToTK is a one-trick pony. It does that trick really well, but like card tricks, I couldn't give a rat's ass about it.
ToTK is a one-trick pony. It does that trick really well, but like card tricks, I couldn't give a rat's ass about it.
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Davey Cakes
Member
That just makes me think that gamers are deranged. It's never good enough.no can do. just look at Spiderman 2 thread. lot of people already complaining about the visual not good enough XD
I'm playing RE4 Remake on my PC right now and I could easily play games that look, play, and perform like it for the next several years without issue. How much more impressive do games really need to be?
Guilty_AI
Member
Thats because sony sells their games (and hardware) on visual fidelity. They dug their own grave here.no can do. just look at Spiderman 2 thread. lot of people already complaining about the visual not good enough XD