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[BlackTron]

Good one lol.

You needed to deflect so badly that you invoked politics nuke with the stated reason being fear of meta commentary.

 

[ManaByte]

All I can hope is that this game scores incredibly well with reviewers and ends up being an amazing game.

It's on machine games to turn these none believers into believers.

If will be lovely, if we get people saying "Ok, I was one of those that said this should have been third person...But holy shit it's brilliant and I'm glad they did what they did"

One can hope.

 

[Hohenheim]

MachineGames was never going to be the right team for the job here and it shows already.

When most people think of Indiana Jones in game form, they will and I think rightfully so think of Tomb Raider and Uncharted.

Well, I think they seems pretty much perfect for the job. So did a lot of folks who obviously knows these things a bit better then both me and you, and everyone else who have watched a reveal video and nothing more.

As for people thinking of Tomb R and Uncharted in this case, yeah sure. I totally get that, but that's why its super cool that they didn't go rhat route and did their thing instead of making yet another third person adventure game like those games.

 

[MiguelItUp]

To each their own, but knowing it's Machinegames, and folks are involved that were involved with The Darkness and Butcher Bay has me beyond excited. Could they have gone outside the box and tried something different? Sure. But if they as a studio know that they excel in a specific form or genre, why not take that path? Especially for this project. It hasn't been done for an Indy title yet, so it all makes perfect sense IMO. When you think about what was done with Butcher Bay, and how well it was done, especially at the time, it makes everything make a lot of sense here.

 

[Ozriel]

Funny that Ubisoft had extremely similar messaging regarding Avatar lol. But we all knew they were just copying Far Cry in Pandora.

Hard to imagine you were the same person handwringing about them not making an Uncharted clone.

That doesn't sounds confidence to me.

Like others said, you stick with the perspective that fits the game. Not one that fits the dev.

That actually sounds confident. First party specialists want to make a first party Indiana Jones game for better immersion.

You folks keep arguing that it doesn’t ‘fit the game’. How so? It’s not a sequel, and they’re free to drive their own interpretation of the IP.

 

[Saber]

That actually sounds confident. First party specialists want to make a first party Indiana Jones game for better immersion.

Not at all. Make the same thing doesn't show confidence for moving to different gameplays and perspectives. It only says that they are limited to first person.
If they were to task to make a plataformer, they would make it first person because thats what they do.
Quite moronic saying that doesn't fit and pretending to not know, when Uncharted and Tomb Rider games were the ones who copied and were inspired by Indiana Jones. Both 3rd person games, but who knows about that right. Ironically, Indiana Jones game for original Xbox is also 3rd person, pretty fine game too.

 

[BouncyFrag]

Live footage of Gaf in the last 24hours when first person games exist:

Me avoiding gaf during this time:

 

[adamsapple]

Not at all. Make the same thing doesn't show confidence for moving to different gameplays and perspectives. It only says that they are limited to first person.
If they were to task to make a plataformer, they would make it first person because thats what they do.
Quite moronic saying that doesn't fit and pretending to not know, when Uncharted and Tomb Rider games were the ones who copied and were inspired by Indiana Jones. Both 3rd person games, but who knows about that right. Ironically, Indiana Jones game for original Xbox is also 3rd person, pretty fine game too.

Doesn't show confidence because they're making a first person game?

What is with these dumb takes in the last 24 hours lol

 

[BlueLyria]

Am I gonna play it? Yeah, besides Wolfenstein 2 and Youngblood, they haven't disappointed me.

But Indy not being 3rd person is such a miss.

 

[HL3.exe]

Dude I love the old starbreeze games (Riddick and The Darkness) their actions adventure mix and pacing is special.

So i'm glad they're still sticking to their roots. Also love the focus on First person. Way more immersive looking at the world, instead of puppeteering some character. Love first person for small stuff like seeing your shadow projected when walking by a light or satisfying weapon feel and reload animations.

Hope it's VR injection compatible.

I'm not getting the whole shitting on 'First Person perspective' the last couple of years. Apart from the motion sickness argument, but that can be mitigated pretty good with FOV styles. I personally love the rise of First Person developed adventure games. Looking forward to Bloodlines 2 or STALKER 2 for the same reason.

 

[ManaByte]

Ironically, Indiana Jones game for original Xbox is also 3rd person, pretty fine game too.

No it's not. Both Infernal Machine and Emperor's Tomb weren't very good. Emperor's Tomb was the Xbox game and it was so bad Har Barwood just threw up his hands and gave up with the crap The Collective was doing in the game.

Ironically, Infernal Machine was built on the Sith engine. The FPS engine Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight and Mysteries of the Sith ran on.

 

[Calverz]

The people in here criticising that it’s first person are the exact same people who would criticise it being third person. ie. Idiots.

 

[Fake]

So, we came from 'We are good at' to 'the only thing we can do'.

Slowing step to red flag.

 

[Chuck Berry]

Did we forget about this one?

Was it any good? I know the Wii version came with Fate of Atlantis.

 

[ManaByte]

The people in here criticising that it’s first person are the exact same people who would criticise it being third person. ie. Idiots.

 

[adamsapple]

The people in here criticising that it’s first person are the exact same people who would criticise it being third person. ie. Idiots.

You're more right than you realize.

Below is an actual post made on neogaf.com, I am hiding the user's name because it'd be a dead giveaway, but you get the gist.

"Whatever they do, it'll be disappointing"

Expecting fair criticism from some folks here is about as likely as finding the literal holy grail.

 

[Ozriel]

Not at all. Make the same thing doesn't show confidence for moving to different gameplays and perspectives. It only says that they are limited to first person.

Same thing? From you folks who are big mad because they didn’t make an Uncharted clone.

Quite moronic saying that doesn't fit and pretending to not know, when Uncharted and Tomb Rider games were the ones who copied and were inspired by Indiana Jones. Both 3rd person games, but who knows about that right. Ironically, Indiana Jones game for original Xbox is also 3rd person, pretty fine game too.

Uncharted and Tomb Raider games were inspired by the concept of Indiana Jones, not necessarily based on any third person Indiana Jones game. Basically games about a swashbuckling, globetrotting adventurer delving into ruins and dodging traps and villains.

Nothing about that mandates third person viewpoint.

In fact, comments like these are absolute madness because the last Indiana Jones game before Tomb Raider kicked off the formula was a 2D sidescrolling platformer.

Absolute nonsense to claim that Uncharted and Tomb Raider copied Indiana Jones.

 

[Rendered Tangent]

Having Indy on screen, with whip and hat, is a perfect way to sell the game.

That's what most people want.

Like the Avatar game which decided to completely ignore the obvious stylistic preference of most players to see the actual Naavi character and went with first person, it makes no sense.

Why could/can the makers of Tomb Raider, or Uncharted, or Jedi Fallen Order and Survivor, or MGS5, or TLOU, or GoW, or any number of other excellent third person action adventure games pull it off but this developer seemed to feel like it couldn't?

Imagine, God of War in first person...would it work?

Or, is seeing Kratos on screen a big part of the visual experience?

Ultimately, I think it's a stupid decision by this team and a missed opportunity.

 

[Saber]

Same thing? From you folks who are big mad because they didn’t make an Uncharted clone.

You folks? Your console war stuff doesn't interest me.
I'm talking about lack of willingness to try something new. This shows lack of confidence. I used both Uncharted and Tomb Raider games because those games were inspired by Indy, wheter you agree or not is irrelevant.

Uncharted and Tomb Raider games were inspired by the concept of Indiana Jones, not necessarily based on any third person Indiana Jones game. Basically games about a swashbuckling, globetrotting adventurer delving into ruins and dodging traps and villains.

No. They also took the camera perspective in count too because it makes the combat more imersive and Indy like, where you can see their models whopping the ass of bad guys(pretty sure any fan of Indiana Jones in general love those scenes from movies). If this wasn't a thing like you claim, they would be all in first person.

In fact, comments like these are absolute madness because the last Indiana Jones game before Tomb Raider kicked off the formula was a 2D sidescrolling platformer.

Absolute nonsense to claim that Uncharted and Tomb Raider copied Indiana Jones.

I said copied and take inspiration for. Once moving to the traditional adventure exploring game, Indiana Jones like I cited has 3rd person games for Xbox and even for N64...though the N64 isn't a good one.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Well, I think they seems pretty much perfect for the job. So did a lot of folks who obviously knows these things a bit better then both me and you, and everyone else who have watched a reveal video and nothing more.

As for people thinking of Tomb R and Uncharted in this case, yeah sure. I totally get that, but that's why its super cool that they didn't go rhat route and did their thing instead of making yet another third person adventure game like those games.

Sometimes the road less traveled is the road less traveled for a reason.

There is a reason why they aren't doing cinematics in first person mode and they're switching to 3rd.

The real reason they are going first person on this is because they lack the skillset for 3rd person action. That in itself doesn't make this the right choice.

MachineGames isn't Naughty Dog or even Crystal Dynamics. They're several notches lower. And going back to the IP itself... no one cares about Indiana Jones at the moment. It's terrible timing to release an Indy game. Stop focusing on argument by authority. It's not the argument that you think it is.

 

[Topher]

The people in here criticising that it’s first person are the exact same people who would criticise it being third person. ie. Idiots.

Eh....plenty of us were very open about wanting this game to be third person long before yesterday.

You're more right than you realize.

Below is an actual post made on neogaf.com, I am hiding the user's name because it'd be a dead giveaway, but you get the gist.

Heisenberg007 's post is below. He makes good points. An Indiana Jones game made in this day, years after Tomb Raider and Uncharted have perfected Indiana Jones in game format, ain't exactly easy to do. Fine that they don't want to copy what has been done, but what has been done is also the best template for the game. That's hardly a controversial take.

That's exactly why I think that, whatever they do, it will be disappointing.

Uncharted perfected the formula of an "Indiana Jones" type game. If they follow Uncharted, they will be replicating the "perfect formula", but it will be just a copy of Uncharted. And Machine Games cannot match Naughty Dog. So it'll be a "cheaper" copy (for the lack of a better word).

If they do it differently from Uncharted, it will be different from the formula that Uncharted perfected over 4 games and a decade. That'll be a loss in itself.

Expecting fair criticism from some folks here is about as likely as finding the literal holy grail.

Expecting any criticism from some folks here when it comes certain platforms is also as likely as finding the literal holy grail. So we can put it in those terms all you want, but it works both ways.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Same thing? From you folks who are big mad because they didn’t make an Uncharted clone.



Uncharted and Tomb Raider games were inspired by the concept of Indiana Jones, not necessarily based on any third person Indiana Jones game. Basically games about a swashbuckling, globetrotting adventurer delving into ruins and dodging traps and villains.

Nothing about that mandates third person viewpoint.

In fact, comments like these are absolute madness because the last Indiana Jones game before Tomb Raider kicked off the formula was a 2D sidescrolling platformer.

Absolute nonsense to claim that Uncharted and Tomb Raider copied Indiana Jones.

There has never been a great action-oriented Indiana Jones game. The puzzle games I think have been fun. But that largely comes down to the limitations of LucasArts and the property at the time.

When you look at Spider-Man you see what can happen with an IP that has larger not had the success requisite with the brand's popularity.

Star Wars similarly has been largely underserved, Star Trek criminally so.

Uncharted and Tomb Raider have done what Indiana Jones games could never do.

The fact that they went with Troy Baker (great choice) over getting Harrison Ford tells you a lot about this game.

 

[Ozriel]

So, we came from 'We are good at' to 'the only thing we can do'.

Slowing step to red flag.

If that’s what you comprehend from that snippet, I’d say you have bigger real world concerns.

You folks? Your console war stuff doesn't interest me.
I'm talking about lack of willingness to try something new. This shows lack of confidence.

I love how they went with First Person view, changing the picture from what many expected would be an Uncharted ‘clone’…and you’re out here claiming they aren’t taking risks.

I used both Uncharted and Tomb Raider games because those games were inspired by Indy, wheter you agree or not is irrelevant.

…and this game still has the adventuring, the tomb/ruins raiding, traps and villain combat seen in past IJ games as well as Uncharted and Tomb Raider.

Major difference? the perspective.

No. They also took the camera perspective in count too because it makes the combat more imersive and Indy like, where you can see their models whopping the ass of bad guys. If this wasn't a thing like you claim, they would be all in first person.

But it’s isn’t just about combat, is it? Here’s a developer quote from the same article

Jerk Gustafsson: We based our philosophy of the gameplay around the character of Indiana Jones. He is not a superhero, he is a very agile and tough archaeologist. When you overcome the numerous obstacles in your way, it takes a lot of effort and hard work, like a real human being. There is also a sense of dread, like you are just about to stumble over the precipice, or the branch you’re holding onto is about to break. Similarly, combat should feel grounded and heavy, with a lot of focus on hand-to-hand fighting, improvising by picking up a clay jar to throw on an enemy’s head, or using the whip to disarm someone pointing a gun at you. A third major component is, of course, the discovery of all these historical moments hidden in the earth, or in the sand. Feeling like you are an expert archaeologist out on an adventure is perhaps the most important part of shaping the experience of being Indiana Jones.

They’re pushing for significant immersion in all facets. Combat, exploration, navigation, stealth…
You certainly can’t compare the quality and immersiveness as meatiness of hand to hand melee combat in Tomb Raider to that in the Riddick games.

 

[drotahorror]

I am sorry but you mold the studio to stay true to the IP, not the other way around. Your obligation is to Indiana Jones and its fanbase, not YOUR fanbase. No one knows who the fuck you are. You have won a total of zero GOTYs. Your DNA is average at best. This was their chance to take the next big leap forward and get to that A tier list, and they blew it by staying in their comfort zone.

Chronicles of Riddick 1 and 2, The Darkness, Wolfenstein TNO and The Old Blood. Not exactly average games man.

Jones may very well suck but it's not going to suck based on it's perspective.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Same way everyone thought Cyberpunk had to be a third person game. And yet.

The part about a first person adventure game with puzzles and stealth not being a good enough premise for an AAA budget is just hilarious.

B..but first person bad!! Disrespecting the IP! It’s not what people wanted when it was announced!

You seem to not understand opportunity costs.

No one is saying a 1st party action game can't sell, obviously that isn't true. That isn't to say the game wouldn't have sold even more copies if it was 3rd person.

 

[Ozriel]

There has never been a great action-oriented Indiana Jones game. The puzzle games I think have been fun. But that largely comes down to the limitations of LucasArts and the property at the time.

Well, we’ll know for sure when reviews show up, eh?
In the meantime, perspective choice has no bearing on the quality. I’m sure even you can agree to that

When you look at Spider-Man you see what can happen with an IP that has larger not had the success requisite with the brand's popularity.

Star Wars similarly has been largely underserved, Star Trek criminally so.

I agree. Good think Todd approached LucasFilm and convinced them to let him make an Indy game, eh? Otherwise, this wouldn’t exist.

The fact that they went with Troy Baker (great choice) over getting Harrison Ford tells you a lot about this game.

Realistically, who expected old Harrison Ford to have the time or inclination to deliver all the lines for the game?
We weren’t even certain they’d be able to get his likeness before the game. Going with a voice actor makes common sense.
Certainly tells me absolutely nothing about the game, though.

 

[Basil King]

I have never seen so many people get upset over this. You would think 95% of the world’s population get motion sickness from FPS games.

This was the smart choice, if it was third person it would have been compared to uncharted and tomb raider reboot (which is already unfairly compared to uncharted)

 

[Ozriel]

You seem to not understand opportunity costs.

No one is saying a 1st party action game can't sell, obviously that isn't true. That isn't to say the game wouldn't have sold even more copies if it was 3rd person.

Certainly wouldn’t have sold this much if it was a bad choice, would it? Or a choice that didn’t fit the theme.

Realistically, not many games manage to sell 25 million units in little over 3 years.

 

[Ozriel]

ironically, about Cyberpunk. Here’s what they had to say about the move to make it First Person

Pretty much the same thing MachineGames are saying. It’s all about their interpretation of immersion, and it’s something they feel they can pull off given their history of making immersive first person games.

We’ll see how it turns out. It can end up being a 70 MC rated game. Could end up being an 87 MC rated title. Could be spectacular. Who knows?
But certainly what quality level it lands out will likely have nothing to do with the choice of camera perspective.

 

[ManaByte]

Same thing? From you folks who are big mad because they didn’t make an Uncharted clone.



Uncharted and Tomb Raider games were inspired by the concept of Indiana Jones, not necessarily based on any third person Indiana Jones game. Basically games about a swashbuckling, globetrotting adventurer delving into ruins and dodging traps and villains.

Nothing about that mandates third person viewpoint.

In fact, comments like these are absolute madness because the last Indiana Jones game before Tomb Raider kicked off the formula was a 2D sidescrolling platformer.

Absolute nonsense to claim that Uncharted and Tomb Raider copied Indiana Jones.

I actually was just playing that. It was made by Factor 5.

Before Tomb Raider you had:

Revenge of the Ancients text adventure:

Raiders on the 2600:

Lost Kingdom on the C64:

Temple of Doom in the arcades and Atari ST:

Temple of Doom on the NES:

Last Crusade on the SNES:

Last Crusade on the PC:

Fate of Atlantis on PC:

Young Indy on the NES:

Instruments of Chaos (Young Indy) on Genesis:

Then Greatest Adventures on SNES.


None of those were like Tomb Raider. Then Lucasarts copied Tomb Raider with Infernal Machine on PC and Factor 5 made the N64 port. The PSX port was cancelled, probably because the game was basically just a Tomb Raider reskin.

 

[FalsettoVibe]

Let just let it come out and see what it's like.

 

[Pelta88]

Phil's comments about uncharted and the potential of this game is where the controversey is.

 

[SmurfMustard]

You're more right than you realize.

Below is an actual post made on neogaf.com, I am hiding the user's name because it'd be a dead giveaway, but you get the gist.








"Whatever they do, it'll be disappointing"

Expecting fair criticism from some folks here is about as likely as finding the literal holy grail.

That quote smells like a true Scheisenberg.

 

[SlimySnake]

Imagine, God of War in first person...would it work?

Or, is seeing Kratos on screen a big part of the visual experience?

now compare this to Avowed's combat and see how limiting it is. First person view limits everything from movesets to movements and abilities. It works perfectly fine for basic first person multiplayer games like CoD and battlefield, but I wouldnt want first person limiting core features in action adventure games that are supposed to do far more than shooting.

Anthem is trashed everywhere online but it had the best combat system of any GaaS game ive played including Destiny. There is just so much more you can do thanks to the third person view from dodging to flying and all kinds of different melee moves that you cant do in Destiny unless you activate a super when they finally let you go third person. Shocking.

 

[Ozriel]

Phil's comments about uncharted and the potential of this game is where the controversey is.

Phil Spencer compared this Indiana Jones to Uncharted?

 

[Saber]

I love how they went with First Person view, changing the picture from what many expected would be an Uncharted ‘clone’…

My dude, how can Indy be an Uncharted clone when Uncharted is a clear clone of Indiana Jones(for some reason Tomb Raider miss your posts)? Tone down your console war tatics. Its not like the game its ruined or anything. Its just that doesn't seem to fit at all.

 

[ManaByte]

Indiana Jones like I cited has 3rd person games for Xbox and even for N64...though the N64 isn't a good one.

There were two, and both weren't very good.

Infernal Machine was made at Lucasarts and Har Barwood who made the two SCUMM adventure games made it using the FPS Sith engine from Jedi Knight. But it was a grid-based Tomb Raider clone and wasn't very good. It got decent reviews on the PC because it was Indy, but not so much on the N64 because it was basically a Tomb Raider re-skin. They cancelled the PSX port because the game just wasn't that great and Tomb Raider was more popular in 1999.

The Xbox one was Emperor's Tomb. It also came out on PC and the PS2. It was developed by The Collective and was really bad. It was so bad Har Barwood basically gave up trying to work with The Collective with all of the dumb crap they were doing (like having Nazi's run around China).

If you want to suffer, you can get both on Steam for like $10 total. Emperor's Tomb is BC on Xbox as well.

 

[VulcanRaven]

I completely understand but its a bit disappointing afters years of waiting for a new Indiana Jones game. If this doesn't well there might not be another one.

 

[havoc00]

aka they don't have the talent Guerrilla has.

Ill take a fun game over whatever Horizon tries to be.

 

[ManaByte]

I completely understand but its a bit disappointing afters years of waiting for a new Indiana Jones game. If this doesn't well there might not be another one.

We've been waiting years for a new Indy game and a new Riddick/The Darkness. This is BOTH.

 

[adamsapple]

Fine that they don't want to copy what has been done, but what has been done is also the best template for the game. That's hardly a controversial take.

No, but when you start a post with "whatever they do, it will be disappointing", you're kinda giving the whole game away and any post from those users in any discussion related to the game should be on automatic grounds for dismissal.

Expecting any criticism from some folks here when it comes certain platforms is also as likely as finding the literal holy grail. So we can put it in those terms all you want, but it works both ways.

Absolutely no arguments from me on this.

That quote smells like a true Scheisenberg.

Hey that sounds like a great Indy title.

Indiana Jones and the Scheisenberg's Schadenfreude.

 

[Pelta88]

Anthem had so much potential...

 

[FoxMcChief]

I need to boot up Indiana Jones on Xbox BC. I’ve never gotten around to it. I liked the N64 game as a kid.

 

[kikii]

Same way everyone thought Cyberpunk had to be a third person game. And yet.

The part about a first person adventure game with puzzles and stealth not being a good enough premise for an AAA budget is just hilarious.

B..but first person bad!! Disrespecting the IP! It’s not what people wanted when it was announced!

and 15mil refunded as false advertising ^^

 

[StreetsofBeige]

now compare this to Avowed's combat and see how limiting it is. First person view limits everything from movesets to movements and abilities. It works perfectly fine for basic first person multiplayer games like CoD and battlefield, but I wouldnt want first person limiting core features in action adventure games that are supposed to do far more than shooting.

Anthem is trashed everywhere online but it had the best combat system of any GaaS game ive played including Destiny. There is just so much more you can do thanks to the third person view from dodging to flying and all kinds of different melee moves that you cant do in Destiny unless you activate a super when they finally let you go third person. Shocking.

First person is best for games which are either slower paced, very cone of vision kinds of gameplay where you arent surrounded, or a game where seeing it out of your eyes makes sense (like a lot of shooters).

Imagine trying to play Diablo as first person or COD as third person or isometric. lol

 

[Topher]

I'm done bitching about the design choice of first person. Hopefully it will be a great game. I see a lot to like.

 

[VulcanRaven]

Did we forget about this one?

Was it any good? I know the Wii version came with Fate of Atlantis.

I was excited about that when it was first announced as a PS3/360 game that used the Euphoria physics engine. Then those versions got cancelled so I never played it.

It was this:

 

[Heisenberg007]

Heisenberg007 's post is below. He makes good points. An Indiana Jones game made in this day, years after Tomb Raider and Uncharted have perfected Indiana Jones in game format, ain't exactly easy to do. Fine that they don't want to copy what has been done, but what has been done is also the best template for the game. That's hardly a controversial take.

Nothing I said was controversial. It was only logical. Folks just had to give it a negative spin.

 

[adamsapple]

I need to boot up Indiana Jones on Xbox BC. I’ve never gotten around to it. I liked the N64 game as a kid.

Looks like it's delisted on Xbox's store

The GoG version is $5.99 right now.

Worth it? Never played it.

 

[FoxMcChief]

Looks like it's delisted on Xbox's store

The GoG version is $5.99 right now.

Worth it? Never played it.

I haven’t played it either. Own it though.