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Used market cost Heavy Rain 1m sales
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IrishNinja
Member
The Praiseworthy said:
i dont really get it, either. i loved it. writing had massive plotholes and god that VA needed work, but it was crazy-tense. dont know that ill replay it, though.
oh man that's how i get like 90% of my games! i love gaming & devs but i think exercising my rights as a consumer is more important really and
jgminto said:
...well, shit.
Because being labeled independent is a bad thing? Fractional Games are independent and have financially become much stable due to the success of Amnesia after development hell related to funding. No idea how much that game was at launch, as it sits currently at $20, but I imagine it was no more than the typical $30.Castor Krieg said:
Also you are forgetting Paradox Interactive and 1C Company, both companies who develop and publish and have never released a game over $40. They are hardly the only ones out there making mad diamonds at much lower prices but I don't have the time nor desire to trawl through the Steam product pages.
Heck, Sengoku from Paradox comes out on Steam on Friday and I am expecting it to be $20-30; compare that to Activision who has artifically raised the price of Modern Warfare 3 to $100 (yes, that is USD) for certain regions.
GraveRobberX said:
There's obviously nothing legally wrong with it but it does hurt developers when a person buys a used game, same with piracy. In the used sales market, the developer already has a sale from a particular individual however when a person is 'encouraged' to get a used game compared to the minor difference for a new game, this does just as much damage to a developer compared to a person downloading a pirated copy. In either situation, the developer already has those initial sales.
More Fun To Compute
Member
I bet that he also lost a million euros in sales due to people watching it on youtube instead of buying new.
Shikamaru Ninja said:
Me too. But I resent the implication that I'm some kind of pirate or thief because I borrowed it from a friend.
When you make a cinematic game like Heavy Rain, you can't be surprised when people finish playing, consider their experience to be complete, and sell the game onward.
And he should be happy that people who enjoyed the game liked it so much that they went around telling friends how good it was and getting those friends to play it.
Phonomezer
Banned
I just rented Heavy Rain, and I'm glad I did because I finished it in two sessions.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
The Praiseworthy said:
Truly, you're a paragon of virtue for all of us to emulate.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Castor Krieg said:
I'm no fan of bolted on multiplayer modes, and I actively dislike nickel-and-diming people for minor content additions.
To be absolutely truthful it actually revolts me somewhat when such obvious gambits are used to try and prop up a game's revenue because the impetus behind its inclusion is purely financial and has no benefit to the artistic and creative value of the work.
Innovation isn't neccessarily quick and easy man. Sometimes it takes time to get that new idea working just right, to implement and tweak that radical mechanic, and all that costs money.
Gamers need to realize that most developers would far prefer to innovate, follow their creative muses, over trying to maximize profit potential.
Its NOT ABOUT GREED, its about trying to find a situation where interesting, original stuff can be made and sold profitably at retail. Because year-on-year its getting harder to do.
Castor Krieg
Banned
speedpop said:
It is a great thing, I have lot of appreciation for Indie developers and the fact that PC ecosystem actually allows to sell games at below the typical 59.99MSRP. I have lots of Indie games in my Steam ccount (Frozen Synapse, Jamestown) that I wouldn't have bought at 59.99, but I was very happy to pay half that.
Clear said:
That's why Multiplayer needs to be well thought-of. Good way: Assassins Creed. Bad way: Dead Space 2, Bioshock 2. DLC need to offer substantial value and not feel like ripping-off the consumer. Good way: Fallout:NV. Bad way: DA, ME2. Guess what? I own every single Fallout NV DLC, while I don't have anything for Dragon Age apart from Awakening (and I skipped Dragon Age 2).
Seriously, why do video game makers think they're entitled to something that no other producers are? The sense of entitlement is really off-putting. I know there are age old arguments in this area, but if I buy my house from somebody I don't have to listen to the housebuilders complain about used sales costing them so much money. I can go out, break the law, and get your game for free. In order for me to buy it second hand somebody else had to buy it so stop making people putting legit money into your industry feel guilty because of it FFS. The craziest part about the used game industry is the prices people will pay for used games. Maybe that's telling you that gaming is becoming too expensive? Be more realistic with your budgets.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Used does not = fucking piracy
Used means one way or another at one time this item was purchased for full retail price, the person who made said item did GET PAID! Once
Piracy equals never paid for, makers seriously get hurt, cause nowhere in it's time was it purchased legally, person who made said item NEVER GETS PAID...EVER!
If I go buy a pair of used sneakers (just go along with it), guy bought Air Jordans for $150, they are still new, not worn, asking for $100. Nike already made $150 from the store that bought that item, then that item was sold to a customer, so they aren't even Nike's customer, more like DICK's or Foot Lockers. Dude can do whatever he like with his sneakers. He sells them, makes $100 for his troubles, other guy gets them cheaper
Guy goes into Foot Locker tries on the Air Jordans and walks out with them. Sells them....guess what that isn't used
Used means one way or another at one time this item was purchased for full retail price, the person who made said item did GET PAID! Once
Piracy equals never paid for, makers seriously get hurt, cause nowhere in it's time was it purchased legally, person who made said item NEVER GETS PAID...EVER!
If I go buy a pair of used sneakers (just go along with it), guy bought Air Jordans for $150, they are still new, not worn, asking for $100. Nike already made $150 from the store that bought that item, then that item was sold to a customer, so they aren't even Nike's customer, more like DICK's or Foot Lockers. Dude can do whatever he like with his sneakers. He sells them, makes $100 for his troubles, other guy gets them cheaper
Guy goes into Foot Locker tries on the Air Jordans and walks out with them. Sells them....guess what that isn't used
Zero-Crescent
Member
You wouldn't share a needle.cvxfreak said:I lent my copy of john tv. Guess that makes us evil.
You wouldn't share a significant other.
You wouldn't share a plan for some daring daytime casino heist.
So why would you share a game?
SHARING. It should be a crime.
Ah yes, and if any gaming-related copyright organizations are reading this, I expect some royalties when this is inevitably made into an anti-sharing commercial.
This is a really good point actually. I too really enjoyed Heavy Rain but once I'd finished it (never bothered seeing all endings) and played the one measly piece of DLC, I was done with it. Once it became clear that no more DLC was coming, I sold the game. I don't buy these things to use as ornaments.The_Monk said:
Pffft, speak for yourself.Zero-Crescent said:
TheChewyWaffles
Member
johnnysix said:
Yep, the argument has been made and re-made but they're ostrich necking because it doesn't fit their cherished business model. Good post.
I expect next-gen consoles to go the way of the PC and have single-use keys (I pray I'm wrong) and I also expect that to contract the market a hell of a lot instead of grow it like they think it will.
GraveRobberX said:
If 10 million people buy used and 10 million people pirate, that means roughly an equal amount of money lost for the developer. While it also means in the first case that there were 10 million sales anyway, that is still lost revenue for the developer. Not to mention a person buying used is more likely to buy new compared to a pirate(price difference for used vs. new) so I'm guessing there is a closer relation to used=lost sale compared to pirate=lost sale.
Pranay_ said:
Yeah it really was a different experience for me this gen and really was fun. My heart was bumping and this game brought out more different type of emotions then any other game has for me this gen. Its sitting pretty with a 87 metacritic score with 107 reviews. Also these reviewers are the same people who review all the other games you may or may not like so lets not get hypocritical and say oh these guys must of been brainwashed when reviewing this game but not for the game I liked.
Also that many sales for a new ip that isn't a shooter is pretty awesome. Its just sad that haters gonna hate though.
Heavy Rain's decision to implement Move instead of working on new DLC episodes really hurt it more than anything.
I can understand the co-founder's sentiment of seeing those numbers (in millions, mind you), and feeling like you were a bit screwed over by the consumer and the retail system.
At least he understands why the used market is there, and its importance.
That said, I think that the best solutions are two-fold: Digital distribution (why isn't HR on PSN yet?) and Digital streaming like OnLive for demoing/renting. The $60 retail model is broken because of the logistics that go into manufacturing/shipping/stocking/shelf space. Games like Heavy Rain can still exists, but the avenues and opportunities for solutions are either not being adopted fast enough, or they're too young.
I can understand the co-founder's sentiment of seeing those numbers (in millions, mind you), and feeling like you were a bit screwed over by the consumer and the retail system.
At least he understands why the used market is there, and its importance.
That said, I think that the best solutions are two-fold: Digital distribution (why isn't HR on PSN yet?) and Digital streaming like OnLive for demoing/renting. The $60 retail model is broken because of the logistics that go into manufacturing/shipping/stocking/shelf space. Games like Heavy Rain can still exists, but the avenues and opportunities for solutions are either not being adopted fast enough, or they're too young.
Mailenstein
Member
A 60 price tag is simply ridiculous these days anyway.
Jarmel said:
When someone buys a game used, the original purchaser no longer has the ability to play it. The number of game discs/cartridges in the world being played has not changed, and thus the developer is not entitled to any more money.
This is completely different from piracy.
_Alkaline_
Member
BLagiver said:
This is the worst fucking meme and I am tired of hearing it.
Night_Trekker
Member
Jarmel said:
Not unless all of the people who bought used were going to buy new instead, which just isn't the case. (Just as many pirates wouldn't have paid a dime for the game if they couldn't pirate.) I buy used because I can afford it. I can't afford all the games I want new. If I couldn't buy used, I would be less likely to buy a console in the first place because I wouldn't be able to afford many games.
And if I pirated instead of buying used, I would pirate the new releases, too. Why wouldn't I? But since I buy games used, I do buy consoles and I do buy the occasional new game.
Castor Krieg
Banned
Jarmel said:
No. People buy used because they refuse to pay for a new copy. You cannot say if used sales were impossible people would buy new at once. Most likely they would wait more for a price drop on new copies.
Broder Salsa
Banned
Rain rain 2 will feature online death match now.
Sony partly funded it, we have no idea if they lost money on that in the end. Cage does however seem happy about his work with them, so I guess he doesn't regret it.
amdnv said:
Sony partly funded it, we have no idea if they lost money on that in the end. Cage does however seem happy about his work with them, so I guess he doesn't regret it.
Anasui Kishibe
Banned
what a conservative and slightly ignorant statement about used market from who wanted to develop such an innovative game
Night_Trekker said:
Obviously this isn't the case in all cases however if somebody is paying $57.00 compared to $60.00 and they didn't have the choice to pay $57.00, I don't think they would care enough about a $5.00 difference to pirate. Compared to piracy where there is the full $60.00 difference.
Castor Krieg said:
A price drop on a new game is better than buying it used.
The Praiseworthy said:
because its the internetz . Second hand gaming or lending is a problem for pulishers as someone enjoys (or hates like in this thread) but in the end, plays, the game and the ones that made it receive nothing. That must be adressed somehow. I guess people here enjoy working for free.
that would be one way.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
Jarmel said:
Wrong. Where do you think the money came from to buy all of those new 10 million copies? How many fewer would have been sold if a person couldn't have used trade-in credit to procure a copy?
Str0ngStyle
Member
Would it be wrong of me to tell this guy to eat a ****? Just curious cause this rant is getting old. I mean, YOU (The Industry) created this monster of the used games market and now you're mad cause the monster you made you can't control? What the fuck ever dude. I'm not one of those guys that are all buy a game day 3-4 used for $5 less, but I will gladly buy a used game for a cheaper price.
Simply put, lower your day 1 price and maybe, just maybe you'll see more sales
Simply put, lower your day 1 price and maybe, just maybe you'll see more sales
Jarmel said:
There's that entitlement again.
Ummm... I'm not sure about using the word "lost". To loose something you must first possess it. Lost revenue is counting money you never had to begin with. If you think the same people that bought your game used, or pirated it would have paid full retail price for it, you're kidding yourselves. I don't like to lump those two groups together because one is contributing money to the industry and the other is committing a crime. Look at Steam sales. How many copies of games get sold for $10 that nobody would have considered at full retail? Is it lost revenue to count those sales if you never had them?
TheChewyWaffles
Member
tzare said:
What I enjoy getting paid for is my time. If my company makes millions off of my hard work (and they do) I don't go knocking on the boss' door for my cut of the excess profits because that's not in the agreement.
VivaciousSoul
Member
Does this reasoning that everyone who does not have the opportunity to borrow would have bought at full price allow me to complain when I buy a game at $60 and don't play it for like 5 years at which point I could have easily bought it at $15? That's $45 that I somehow robbed myself of.
GraveRobberX
Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
BatmanBatmanBatman said:
X = JASSSSSSOOOON!!!!!! 25%+ more damage
O = Whistle!!!! Phewet Phewet Pwhet!!! Insta-Death
/_\ = $1 deducted from PSN account every time pressed...."Dev's Gotta Eat Yo'" + Chopper Gunner
[] = Shalamdindong "What a Twist".jpg, Game Over Screen
L1 = Zoom
R1 = Shoot
L2 = Knife
R2 = Grenades
3 kill streak = X activated
5 kill streak = O activated
7 kill streak = /_\ activated
11 kill streak = [] activated
Castor Krieg
Banned
tzare said:
How about giving me better value-for-money?
johnnysix said:
Again it's not like we're talking huge differences in price. Obviously for some people that matters but if the average joe is turned off enough by atmost a $10 differential to the point of piracy instead of waiting for a price drop, I would reason to guess that they were thinking about doing it anyway.
BigNastyCurve said:
How do we know? If the option didn't exist it's very possible sales could still retain that level especially if you include people who might have bought used.