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[ScOULaris]

So I went back and saw the original thread title. I don't get what the problem was. Seems like a perfectly appropriate title to me. Am I missing something?

 

[InfiniteNine]

And the importance of the age is how far along he is. The longer he waits, its not going to turn out as well as if he started to before puberty. The kid has gone to clinics and psychologist for this, they seem to agree, and this is going to be a moderated procedure.

They actually prolonged the time a bit for her to make sure it's what she really wants with the hormone blockers which I think is the right way to go about it. The parents really seem to be caring of her wishes and have done a lot to come to this conclusion including seeking advice from multiple professionals.

 

[Freshmaker]

The primary characteristic of sex is the sexual organ, which is essentially binary for human beings.

Sexual organs do not determine behavior.

 

[Devolution]

Just wanted to say, I hope sometime in the future it is since it helps everyone know where the lines are drawn, as the faqs are not exhaustive and frequently each ban is per moderator's discretion sooo.

Anyways I wanted to ask, though perhaps it's a question for the transgaf thread: Is it possible to clarify in simple terms what makes one identify with a specific gender? It is more than just a feeling or like....for lack of a better phrase, a state of mind? I'm honestly ignorant about that and would like clarification since I honestly don't know, though I understand gender itself are not black and white dichotomies. Like for this kid, was it more that he was comfortable with things socially attributed to girls, like hobbies, dresses, whatever?
The question means well, I want to know...

I think for people who want to change themselves physically it goes far beyond just an interest in things socially attributed to the opposite gender. I think you'd have to ask someone like Lexi on this personally. All non-trans people do is provide conjecture on this issue, unless they work directly with or on transgenderism and its social and psychological basis.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

So I went back and saw the original thread title. I don't get what the problem was. Seems like a perfectly appropriate title to me. Am I missing something?

The most common inference to take from the original thread title is that this is not the child's decision and is some type of philosophical agenda on the part of the parents. There is no reason to mention the sexuality of the parents.

 

[Van Owen]

Not always. There are quite a few intersexed individuals who have been harmed by this line of thinking (and mutilated). And chemicals/the brain can be more of a primary characteristic than physical attributes, that's the biggest issue with intersexed/transgender individuals.

Which is why I said essentially the amount of hermaphroditic people in the world is very little compared to the world population.

Are you saying transgendered people have a chemical imbalance?

 

[ScOULaris]

The most common inference to take from the original thread title is that this is not the child's decision and is some type of philosophical agenda on the part of the parents. There is no reason to mention the sexuality of the parents.

Haha, man. I don't have time to read the first half of this thread, but some shit must have gone down to necessitate that the old title be changed. Not to mention all of the bans. I think I'm gonna bail out and go into full lurker mode on this one.

 

[shintoki]

They actually prolonged the time a bit for her to make sure it's what she really wants with the hormone blockers which I think is the right way to go about it. The parents really seem to be caring of her wishes and have done a lot to come to this conclusion including seeking advice from multiple professionals.

They clearly are supportive of him and taking all the steps. I mean, if all parents were that supportive of their kids. Life would be a more enjoyable.

I'm not partial to the idea of delaying puberty, but I can at least understand where they are coming from too. They want to be sure since this isn't really a thing he can go back from. But I do believe most kids know if they feel like a girl or boy by that age, and to be honest, far earlier.

 

[Devolution]

Which is why I said essentially the amount of hermaphroditic people in the world is very little compared to the world population.

Are you saying transgendered people have a chemical imbalance?

No you just did because I never implied there was a balance to begin with. I've been pretty clear in my disdain for binary dichotomies of sex and gender.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Haha, man. I don't have time to read the first half of this thread, but some shit must have gone down to necessitate that the old title be changed. Not to mention all of the bans. I think I'm gonna bail out and go into full lurker mode on this one.

You might be reading too much into it, I think. The direction the thread took probably would have had an impact, but either way the original title was needlessly provocative and misleading.

 

[Freshmaker]

Are you saying transgendered people have a chemical imbalance?

Evidence shows that gender identification is determined by hormones while the fetus is in development.

 

[Van Owen]

No you just did because I never implied there was a balance to begin with. I've been pretty clear in my disdain for binary dichotomies of sex and gender.

No, I just didn't know what else you could mean by "chemicals/brain".

 

[Flo_Evans]

So imagine feeling like you should have a penis but being born with a vagina, and imagine that that feeling never goes away no matter how hard you try to bury it. Would be pretty shitty, right?

Not jumping on you ofc, but I feel like a lot of misunderstanding wrt transgendered folks comes from lack of empathy because people assume that just because they've never personally felt something similar, no one could. (Again, not saying this is you, and I understand your post was probably partly in jest.)

I dunno, I don't feel like I "should" be anything, other than what I am.

Not saying that it isn't a legitimate dilemma for some people I just have a hard time identifying with it because I have never felt that way personally.

I guess as close as I can come is that I sometimes wish I had a better chin/jawline, I wouldn't do anything as drastic as plastic surgery to "fix" it though. I just grow a beard

 

[jim-jam bongs]

No, I just didn't know what else you could mean by "chemicals/brain".

This is a side-note, but if you're interested in the topic might I recommend The Brain that Changes Itself? It's a very readable introduction to the idea of neuroplasticity, and covers a lot of info about the way in which the human brain operates, cool stuff.

 

[water_wendi]

No, I just didn't know what else you could mean by "chemicals/brain".

Regional gray matter variation in male-to-female transsexualism.

Gender identity-one's sense of being a man or a woman-is a fundamental perception experienced by all individuals that extends beyond biological sex. Yet, what contributes to our sense of gender remains uncertain. Since individuals who identify as transsexual report strong feelings of being the opposite sex and a belief that their sexual characteristics do not reflect their true gender, they constitute an invaluable model to understand the biological underpinnings of gender identity. We analyzed MRI data of 24 male-to-female (MTF) transsexuals not yet treated with cross-sex hormones in order to determine whether gray matter volumes in MTF transsexuals more closely resemble people who share their biological sex (30 control men), or people who share their gender identity (30 control women). Results revealed that regional gray matter variation in MTF transsexuals is more similar to the pattern found in men than in women. However, MTF transsexuals show a significantly larger volume of regional gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. These findings provide new evidence that transsexualism is associated with distinct cerebral pattern, which supports the assumption that brain anatomy plays a role in gender identity.

A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality.

Transsexuals have the strong feeling, often from childhood onwards, of having been born the wrong sex. The possible psychogenic or biological aetiology of transsexuality has been the subject of debate for many years. Here we show that the volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminals (BSTc), a brain area that is essential for sexual behaviour, is larger in men than in women. A female-sized BSTc was found in male-to-female transsexuals. The size of the BSTc was not influenced by sex hormones in adulthood and was independent of sexual orientation. Our study is the first to show a female brain structure in genetically male transsexuals and supports the hypothesis that gender identity develops as a result of an interaction between the developing brain and sex hormones.

A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity.

Transsexuality is an individual's unshakable conviction of belonging to the opposite sex, resulting in a request for sex-reassignment surgery. We have shown previously that the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) is female in size and neuron number in male-to-female transsexual people. In the present study we investigated the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus, which is composed of two subnuclei, namely interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH) 3 and 4. Post-mortem brain material was used from 42 subjects: 14 control males, 11 control females, 11 male-to-female transsexual people, 1 female-to-male transsexual subject and 5 non-transsexual subjects who were castrated because of prostate cancer. To identify and delineate the nuclei and determine their volume and shape we used three different stainings throughout the nuclei in every 15th section, i.e. thionin, neuropeptide Y and synaptophysin, using an image analysis system. The most pronounced differences were found in the INAH3 subnucleus. Its volume in thionin sections was 1.9 times larger in control males than in females (P < 0.013) and contained 2.3 times as many cells (P < 0.002). We showed for the first time that INAH3 volume and number of neurons of male-to-female transsexual people is similar to that of control females. The female-to-male transsexual subject had an INAH3 volume and number of neurons within the male control range, even though the treatment with testosterone had been stopped three years before death. The castrated men had an INAH3 volume and neuron number that was intermediate between males (volume and number of neurons P > 0.117) and females (volume P > 0.245 and number of neurons P > 0.341). There was no difference in INAH3 between pre-and post-menopausal women, either in the volume (P > 0.84) or in the number of neurons (P < 0.439), indicating that the feminization of the INAH3 of male-to-female transsexuals was not due to estrogen treatment. We propose that the sex reversal of the INAH3 in transsexual people is at least partly a marker of an early atypical sexual differentiation of the brain and that the changes in INAH3 and the BSTc may belong to a complex network that may structurally and functionally be related to gender identity.

Male-to-female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus.

Transsexuals experience themselves as being of the opposite sex, despite having the biological characteristics of one sex. A crucial question resulting from a previous brain study in male-to-female transsexuals was whether the reported difference according to gender identity in the central part of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) was based on a neuronal difference in the BSTc itself or just a reflection of a difference in vasoactive intestinal polypeptide innervation from the amygdala, which was used as a marker. Therefore, we determined in 42 subjects the number of somatostatin-expressing neurons in the BSTc in relation to sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, and past or present hormonal status. Regardless of sexual orientation, men had almost twice as many somatostatin neurons as women (P < 0.006). The number of neurons in the BSTc of male-to-female transsexuals was similar to that of the females (P = 0.83). In contrast, the neuron number of a female-to-male transsexual was found to be in the male range. Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers. The present findings of somatostatin neuronal sex differences in the BSTc and its sex reversal in the transsexual brain clearly support the paradigm that in transsexuals sexual differentiation of the brain and genitals may go into opposite directions and point to a neurobiological basis of gender identity disorder.

 

[Shogmaster]

Reading through this thread is like witnessing the great ban tsunami of 2011. Yowza, did anyone keep a count?

 

[Acerac]

Reading through this thread is like witnessing the great ban tsunami of 2011. Yowza, did anyone keep a count?

There was a list a few pages back. I'll go try to hunt down the post.

Here we are.

 

[kehs]

There was a list a few pages back. I'll go try to hunt down the post.

Here we are.

Noooo, not mudkips, he's our window into bitcoin. =(

 

[jax (old)]

@opiate

Gotta ask.. What is with the moral arbitriation that posters cannot hold the view that this is child abuse. It's a point of view, but I find it peculiar that apparently, it's the wrong point of view to have in this instance resulting a carte Blanche banning of anyone saying it is.

Shouldn't the topic avail itself to discussion about Whether or not it is/not?

Weird thread.

 

[Acerac]

Noooo, not mudkips, he's our window into bitcoin. =(

I'd imagine the vast majority aren't perma. That being said, Opiate asked us very kindly to stay on topic and not discuss the sea of death. In the interest of this thread staying open for further discussion how about we do just that?

 

[Devolution]

@opiate

Gotta ask.. What is with the moral arbitriation that posters cannot hold the view that this is child abuse. It's a point of view, but I find it peculiar that apparently, it's the wrong point of view to have in this instance resulting a carte Blanche banning of anyone saying it is.

Shouldn't the topic avail itself to discussion about Whether or not it is/not?

Weird thread.

There have been people in here who have discussed rationally why they disagree with what the parents are doing despite the circumstances without going into hysterics. I think that's what more people should aspire to.

Anyway I think we're realizing more and more just how complicated the brain and chemicals are to not just who we are personality wise but how we feel sexually. That the physical is not really a great standard to measure people by.

 

[Volimar]

I considered myself fairly progressive.

Now I don't.

Yup. This crosses the line. Grow up a little and enjoy life before you make this kind of decision. This one family is going to be the go-to excuse against same sex adoption for months to come.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Yup. This crosses the line. Grow up a little and enjoy life before you make this kind of decision. This one family is going to be the go-to excuse against same sex adoption for months to come.

Yeah bigots are stupid like that.

 

[Devolution]

Yup. This crosses the line. Grow up a little and enjoy life before you make this kind of decision. This one family is going to be the go-to excuse against same sex adoption for months to come.

Are you referring to the child? That she needs to grow up? People making this argument seem to fail to grasp that the onset of male puberty wouldn't be good for her right now. Or they don't care. I don't know which it is.

 

[samus i am]

Yup. This crosses the line. Grow up a little and enjoy life before you make this kind of decision. This one family is going to be the go-to excuse against same sex adoption for months to come.

Heh, "Grow up a little and enjoy life". Great advice, it's like telling someone with clinical depression to "snap out of it".

 

[kittens]

This is my first time in this thread, and wow. I'm trying hard not to rage. Trans/queer/gender issues and raising kids are both really important to me, so this topic hits a whole slew of nerves.

But critics of the treatment say 11-year-olds are not old enough to make life-altering decisions about changing their gender, and parents should not be encouraging them.

...

"This is child abuse. It's like performing liposuction on an anorexic child," said Dr. Paul McHugh, professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University.
"It is a disorder of the mind. Not a disorder of the body. Dealing with it in this way is not dealing with the problem that truly exists.
“We shouldn't be mucking around with nature. We can’t assume what the outcome will be," McHugh said.

There's sooooo much wrong with this.

1. The child identifies as female and wants to be female.
2. The anorexia is fucking stupid and fucking offensive.
3. Being transgendered is not a disorder. Fuck this guy.
4. Implies that being trans is not natural. Again, fuck this guy.

This child is considering changing their (singular "their" - a gender neutral pronoun, as opposed to he or she) body to better represent/embody their true gender. True as in how they perceive it, not anyone else. The child's parents are supporting them in that decision.

I think delaying puberty is perfectly fine, although it may be unnecessary. The child could continue to explore/investigate their gender even as they go through puberty. But if the kid wants to do things this way, then fine. I'd say they're old enough to make this decision. The child must have ultimate agency in this decision.

Also, this article repeatedly refers to the child as a boy, even though the child has stated that their gender is female. More transphobic douchebaggery. Fox News is the epitome of heteronormative America.

 

[Opiate]

@opiate

Gotta ask.. What is with the moral arbitriation that posters cannot hold the view that this is child abuse. It's a point of view, but I find it peculiar that apparently, it's the wrong point of view to have in this instance resulting a carte Blanche banning of anyone saying it is.

Shouldn't the topic avail itself to discussion about Whether or not it is/not?

Weird thread.

There has been discussion., and we are not banning everyone who disagrees with the parents. We tend to ban people for, among other things 1) not reading the OP, which is explicitly against the ToS, and 2) engaging in hysterical, deliberately divisive behavior or language.

Many people stating that this is child abuse without any supporting data or rational argumentation to support that point of view demonstrated clearly that they had not read the OP -- just as you apparently did not listen when I asked you to contact me via PM if you have further questions.

It is often not the essential message which is at fault, but the manner and place it is presented.

 

[chaostrophy]

Yup. This crosses the line. Grow up a little and enjoy life before you make this kind of decision. This one family is going to be the go-to excuse against same sex adoption for months to come.

It's crazy that despite all the bannings, people are still making posts that show they haven't read the whole story. Allowing the kid to grow up a little before making any permanent decision is EXACTLY what the hormone blockers will do.

 

[Darklord]

even though the child has stated that their gender is female. More transphobic douchebaggery.

But he IS a boy at the moment. If he wants to change then sure but technically, he isn't a she yet. Am I wrong?

I dunno, I just think the kid should mature and make the decision a bit later. And 15 isn't exactly mature. Clearly he is wanting to be one but a life changing decision at 11-15 it's a big deal. And could those blockers screw things up? No matter what you think of transgender, halting puberty for years sounds like it could cause complications. Like what is different between doing it before or after puberty because wouldn't nearly 100% do it after puberty anyway? I didn't get that from the article.

 

[Devolution]

But he IS a boy at the moment. If he wants to change then sure but technically, he isn't a she yet. Am I wrong?

I dunno, I just think the kid should mature and make the decision a bit later. And 15 isn't exactly mature. Clearly he is wanting to be one but a life changing decision at 11-15 it's a big deal. And could those blockers screw things up? No matter what you think of transgender, halting puberty for years sounds like it could cause complications. Like what is different between doing it before or after puberty because wouldn't nearly 100% do it after puberty anyway? I didn't get that from the article.

If "he" considers himself a girl, you say she. It's not about post or pre-op, it's about what gender they decide to label themselves as.

Basically. There is no ideal path here because any of them (options: start treatments now, delay treatments/decision via hormone blockers, wait until after puberty) could cause serious negative consequences, but I don't think some are giving enough consideration to possible negative consequences of the last action which many TG folks who start treatment in adulthood have encountered. Some of them are even in this thread to share that POV!

Right and we could have had a rational debate about the best course to take (we still can) right from the start but instead the thread got mired in bullshit. There is no obvious solution but to come in and insult the parents when they're dealing with a child who will go the lengths of self-mutilation, they have to consider a broader range of options than most parents will ever have to, is just unfair.

 

[Gvaz]

But he IS a boy at the moment. If he wants to change then sure but technically, he isn't a she yet. Am I wrong?

Gender is what you identify with.

 

[Cwarrior]

Mr.Awesome
List

TOO BEAUTIFUL FOR THIS WORLD

wow

 

[jim-jam bongs]

But he IS a boy at the moment. If he wants to change then sure but technically, he isn't a she yet. Am I wrong?

I dunno, I just think the kid should mature and make the decision a bit later. And 15 isn't exactly mature. Clearly he is wanting to be one but a life changing decision at 11-15 it's a big deal. And could those blockers screw things up? No matter what you think of transgender, halting puberty for years sounds like it could cause complications. Like what is different between doing it before or after puberty because wouldn't nearly 100% do it after puberty anyway? I didn't get that from the article.

Given your stance about the importance of mental maturity, I'd assume you would be in favour of this. Physical gender doesn't begin to solidify until puberty, so delaying puberty effectively delays the decision until he or she is old enough to rationally assess the pros and cons of living as a specific gender.

As a side note, people seem quite horrified about the idea of delaying puberty, but seem unaware of how many female gymnasts and dancers don't go through puberty until their 20s.

 

[kittens]

But he IS a boy at the moment. If he wants to change then sure but technically, he isn't a she yet. Am I wrong?

Gender isn't about your body or your genitalia. The kid identifies as female, and so is female. Here's a Wikipedia article on sex and gender distinction.

And here's an article that I think is a good introduction to concepts of transgendered and non-binary gender identifications. The "newsmagazine" as a whole is pretty awful, but I think that's a good interview.

Edit: And here's a really rad This American Life piece on two transgendered girls -- both seven years old. The piece is mostly good, but there are some pretty fucked up lines from one kid's father, including wishing his kid was "just gay", and repeatedly using the wrong pronoun for his kid. I feel bad for his kid. :-\

 

[Van Owen]

Given your stance about the importance of mental maturity, I'd assume you would be in favour of this. Physical gender doesn't begin to solidify until puberty, so delaying puberty effectively delays the decision until he or she is old enough to rationally assess the pros and cons of living as a specific gender.

As a side note, people seem quite horrified about the idea of delaying puberty, but seem unaware of how many female gymnasts and dancers don't go through puberty until their 20s.

Um, are they intentionally delaying it, or is it a side effect of exercising so much...

 

[samus i am]

Gender is a range of characteristics used to distinguish between males and females, particularly in the cases of men and women and the masculine and feminine attributes assigned to them. Depending on the context, the discriminating characteristics vary from sex to social role to gender identity. Sexologist John Money introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word "gender" to refer to anything but grammatical categories. However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory embraced the distinction between biological sex and the social construct of gender.

So the current understanding of gender roles is a new one.

 

[Stet]

Um, are they intentionally delaying it, or is it a side effect of exercising so much...

Does it matter? Either way, they're knowingly delaying puberty so that they can continue to do something important to them. Either competing physically or deciding who they are physically and psychologically. What's the problem?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Um, are they intentionally delaying it, or is it a side effect of exercising so much...

The latter. And lol, I wasn't saying it's a good thing to do necessarily, just that it does happen sometimes because of "natural" means. A friend of mine who was a dancer until she was 16 had her first period at 19.

 

[Emitan]

Made it about 5 pages in before calling it quits. Goodness!

So glad I never cared about any of the people who were banned.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Made it about 5 pages in before calling it quits. Goodness!

So glad I never cared about any of the people who were banned.

Most of them were already on my ignore list!

 

[Volimar]

It's crazy that despite all the bannings, people are still making posts that show they haven't read the whole story. Allowing the kid to grow up a little before making any permanent decision is EXACTLY what the hormone blockers will do.

I did read the article, don't make assumptions. I was saying the child should give actually living life as a male a try before deciding he doesn't like it. There are options down the line, but this kind of decision carried out on a prepubescent child could have long term repercussions whether he decides to be male or not.

I say this as a person raising an 11 year old myself. I wouldn't let even the most emotionally and intellectually mature 11 year old make this kind of lifelong decision. My 11 year old wants to be either a veterinarian that only works with cats or a magician when he grows up. Now, chances are, by the time he's an adult his intentions will change. It's not a direct analogy, but I'm just saying that we are different people when we're 11 than when we're adults.

The only thing that does give me pause is that if he continues to identify as female, he'll have a hard time socializing in school later. I'm sure his parents are simply trying to spare him the pain of trying to conform or being a pariah, something that as former gay teens themselves, they can sympathize with.

 

[Devolution]

The latter. And lol, I wasn't saying it's a good thing to do necessarily, just that it does happen sometimes because of "natural" means. A friend of mine who was a dancer until she was 16 had her first period at 19.

It can't really be helped sometimes either. A lot of female athletes go without periods for extended amounts of time. It's not really something that can be helped and it's not necessarily "bad", "wrong" or even "unhealthy."

 

[Emitan]

Most of them were already on my ignore list!

AbsoluteZero refuses to buy a PS2 and play PS2 games so he might as well have been on mine.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

It can't really be helped sometimes either. A lot of female athletes go without periods for extended amounts of time. It's not really something that can be helped and it's not necessarily "bad", "wrong" or even "unhealthy."

One thing I do wonder, I had a friend who used to skip her period some months by skipping her week of sugar pills. My gut feeling is that isn't healthy, but I've never sought any information about it.

 

[kittens]

Made it about 5 pages in before calling it quits. Goodness!

So glad I never cared about any of the people who were banned.

I like most everyone on GAF... Until a discussion on feminism or queer issues comes up.

 

[Devolution]

One thing I do wonder, I had a friend who used to skip her period some months by skipping her week of sugar pills. My gut feeling is that isn't healthy, but I've never sought any information about it.

What? I get it anyway regardless of whether I take pills that week or not.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

What? I get it anyway regardless of whether I take pills that week or not.

Huh, maybe it depends on the type of pill then. I'll have to ask my sister, she's been on the pill because of PCOS and endodemetriosis since she was 13, which was the case with the friend too.

 

[Orayn]

I like most everyone on GAF... Until a discussion on feminism or queer issues comes up.

Why GAF Can't Have Nice Things - An epic journey of semantics, kneejerk responses, and not reading the OP.

I'm smelling a novel, movie adaptation, animated web-exclusive miniseries, etc.

 

[noah111]

Damn, what the fuck happened in this thread?

Clicked since the title change made me think it was a different thread, and shit the first page is a graveyard. Did a double take when all the posts were marked 'yesterday'; thought I walked into a bumped 09 thread. :lol

Read through a bit of the debate, and I see how some could view it as abuse, and I certainly made that assumption on the old thread title, but reading the actual article it's a different case all-together..

However, what I DON'T identify with personally is suddenly being obligated to call the child a female and refer to him as she. He has a dick, he's a male. Sorry, but it's in his genetics.

I am not saying it's in his genes to FEEL like a male, but the fact is he is, and until he gets boobs and pushes forward with the changes he's on track with, I can't refer to him as female.

It's just too confusing, sorry. I will when he looks like one, happily!

PS. I don't want to come across as a hard head ass on the topic, since I know it can offend people. Totally open to my mmind being changed, it's just my current conclusion based on my current knowledge. Don't take it personal...

 

[Devolution]

Huh, maybe it depends on the type of pill then. I'll have to ask my sister, she's been on the pill because of PCOS and endodemetriosis since she was 13, which was the case with the friend too.

Oh then maybe the pills induce it for her. Mine was to make me regular (at first) but I think I finally transitioned to that on my own. Now it's for actual "birth control."