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[Levyne]

To be fair, the subject matter is pretty damn confusing. I had no idea this stuff was so involved before I made friends with a group of people that included a transgender person and had a few heated discussions.

Spoiler

My boyfriend and I still argue whether Sheik is a guy or a girl.

Spoiler

Sheik is a male persona being played by someone who is female! An actress playing as Peter Pan would be a good analogy. Peter Pan is male, Sheik is male. That's how I look at it.

 

[xbhaskarx]

That's fucked up and they should go to jail for child abuse.

.

 

[Charoncaori]

Is there a specific age of when a person identifies with a gender? Honestly, I thought it was puberty that more or less made us do that do to the onslaught of hormones. Not to get into environmental expectations, but I thought that's why we see little boys put on their sisters dresses and whatever the vice versa would be.

There have been some studies that show it might be determined by hormone levels in the womb.

 

[Gaborn]

I doubt the baby is really thinking about the color of the blanket right after it was born. We assign a gender identifier, but a baby could care less.

A lot of toddler toys are gender neutral.

I would say most aren't on the whole.

David Reimer was biologically a boy with a mutilation, that's a bit different different than this. Besides that, he started identifying as a boy during puberty. This is a bit different from a fucking toddler saying "I'm a girl"

This is simply false.

Janet Reimer did her best to raise Bruce as a girl. She dressed him in skirts and dresses and showed him how to apply make-up. But the transformation was anything but smooth. Bruce Reimer didn't like playing with the other girls – and he didn't move like one either. He got into schoolyard fistfights. The other kids called him names like "caveman," "freak" and "it."

In an interview with the CBC's The Fifth Estate, Reimer said it got so bad he didn't want to go to school anymore. He felt picked upon and increasingly lonely.

By the time Bruce turned nine, the Reimer family was having serious doubts. Not John Money. He published an article in the Archives of Sexual Behaviour pronouncing the experiment a resounding success. It became widely known in medical circles as the Joan/John case.

Money wrote: "The child's behaviour is so clearly that of an active little girl and so different from the boyish ways of her twin brother."

The twin brother, Brian, remembered it differently: "The only difference between him and I was he had longer hair." "I tried really, really hard to rear her as a gentle lady," Janet Reimer said. "But it didn't happen."

By the time Bruce was reaching puberty, it became increasingly clear the experiment was not working. He started developing thick shoulders and a thick neck.

At the same time, the Reimers were under pressure from Money to take the final step: allow surgeons to create a vagina.

But Bruce rebelled. He protested that he didn't need surgery and threatened to commit suicide if he was forced to make another trip to Baltimore to see Money.

That's when his father broke down and told him everything.

Also

The reality was quite different, as Rolling Stone reporter John Colapinto brilliantly documented in the 2000 best seller As Nature Made Him. Reimer had never adjusted to being a girl at all. He wanted only to build forts and play with his brother’s dump trucks, and insisted that he should pee standing up. He was a social disaster at school, beating up other kids and misbehaving in class. At 14, Reimer became so alienated and depressed that his parents finally told him the truth about his birth, at which point he felt mostly relief, he reported. He eventually underwent phalloplasty, and he married a woman. Then four years ago, at age 38, Reimer shot himself dead in a grocery-store parking lot.

 

[crazy monkey]

This. And it's a lot harder to SRS after puberty and be "passable." Look up Kim Petras, who started treatment at 12. No way would she look like that if she hadn't started so early, and I'm sure her life is a lot easier because of it.

I am sorry but seriously her back looks like front it is very very creepy. something very wrong with the picture. Also this is what i say is WTF news.

 

[Wrestlemania]

I read it. I disagree with what is being done. I get that he thinks he's female.

But they've got a dick and you know better, right?

 

[Codeblue]

Ok, I read the article and still think it's wrong to mess with a child's natural hormonal progression.

What am I missing?

 

[sangreal]

Comparing Tylenol to messing with hormones, really?

I commented on the standards by which you deem a drug acceptable. If you believe that only treatments that are fully understood are acceptable, then you probably need to throw out most drugs. My usage of Tylenol was to demonstrate an extremely common, extremely powerful (deadly infact) drug which is not fully understood. I did not compare its effects to that of hormone therapy.

 

[Kurdel]

This thread is really stunning and goes to show how much work there still is in educating people about dissociative identity disorder...

 

[TheSeks]

I would say so, but I cannot actually see anyone defending this. Right, GAF?

Er-I don't see the issue provided it's the childs choice. If the child came up to them and said "I may be a girl in a boys body." Then no issue. If they're doing it on a whim, then yeah I've got problems with it.

Kid's the one that decides if he's a she or vice-versa. And given they say there's little to not-much side-effects from it (I'm no expert, so)... I don't see the big deal if it's the kids choice.

 

[Sai-kun]

Setting gay adoption back years in the process.

Idiots, and terrible parents, to boot.

How? He wants to be a girl, and all they're doing is delaying puberty so it can ultimately be his choice whether or not he wants to get SRS or not.

 

[benzy]

I set aside the moral and social ramifications of this situation, I just think it's absolutely wrong to fuck with a child's hormones before they are 17.

But in this boy's case, it appears like it's too late. These parents had their claws dug in since the day he was born.

Might as well let them finish what they started.

That's him? :|

 

[Charoncaori]

Spoiler

Sheik is a male persona being played by someone who is female! An actress playing as Peter Pan would be a good analogy. Peter Pan is male, Sheik is male. That's how I look at it.

Spoiler

That's his argument exactly, but I'm convinced she's a girl, has feelings for Link, and is therefore acting how a girl thinks a guy would act, instead of acting and thinking like a guy. the fact that Zelda is a girl, and is not a completely separate personality (she doesn't throw away princess Zelda's feelings and desires while being Sheik) colors my opinion of Sheik... It doesn't seem to be a popular opinion, though.

 

[Snaku]

I am sorry but seriously her back looks like front it is very very creepy. something very wrong with the picture. Also this is what i say is WTF news.

Her shoulders are pushed way forward.

 

[Acerac]

I read it. I disagree with what is being done. I get that he thinks he's female.

It's cool to disagree with it. But it seems rather over the top to believe that delaying puberty to give the child more time to think about the subject is

A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

Apologies for assuming you didn't read the article, many in the thread obviously didn't.

 

[Pachterballs]

there's a reason why they don't allow kids to get plastic surgery too while they're too young. Nothing is fully developed. This chemically induced hormone blockers is going to neuter his development.

Zucker conducted a study following 109 boys who had gender identity disorder between the ages of 3 and 12. Researchers followed up at the mean age of 20 and found 12% of these boys continued to want to change genders.

 

[Gaborn]

Spoiler

That's his argument exactly, but I'm convinced she's a girl, has feelings for Link, and is therefore acting how a girl thinks a guy would act, instead of acting and thinking like a guy. the fact that Zelda is a girl, and is not a completely separate personality (she doesn't throw away princess Zelda's feelings and desires while being Sheik) colors my opinion of Sheik... It doesn't seem to be a popular opinion, though.

Spoiler

I know of no rule that says that girls can't be kick ass super stealthy ninja like characters. Sheik is a girl. It's kind of a Metroid situation. Playing the game most people probably assumed Samus was male so the reveal at the end was shocking. But nothing Sheik does or says that I remember says that they were male.

 

[Blair]

big hands


people will always question the big hands

 

[Mr.Awesome]

I am sorry but seriously her back looks like front it is very very creepy. something very wrong with the picture. Also this is what i say is WTF news.

haha, yeah, WTF. Is that a terrible photoshop job?

 

[Pachterballs]

This thread is really stunning and goes to show how much work there still is in educating people about dissociative identity disorder...

if anything, the parents of that kid needs educating. It seems like established literature on the matter is that its too early but they went ahead with it anyhow.

 

[Charoncaori]

I'm not a doctor, but since this is just DELAYING puberty, the worst the blockers could do, if the kid decides to be male, is cause shortness. That sounds like the least of the kid's problems.

Also, the child is ELEVEN. Not six.

 

[water_wendi]

i dont think people realize the opportunity that the parents are giving their child. i wish i had the chance.

Also im not surprised by the reactions in here.

I am sorry but seriously her back looks like front it is very very creepy. something very wrong with the picture. Also this is what i say is WTF news.

She is shrugging her shoulder.

 

[Enco]

That's fucked up and they should go to jail for child abuse.

We're done here.

All there is to say. You're crazy if you think this is fine.

I feel sorry for the kid. I hate parents/people like this.

 

[jon bones]

there's a reason why they don't allow kids to get plastic surgery too while they're too young. Nothing is fully developed. This chemically induced hormone blockers is going to neuter his development.

NOPE YOU JUST DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE

let's just slap some hormone blockers on this kid and call it a day

 

[Kurdel]

That's him? :|

To be fair, I think most 11 year boys look like lesbians.

But that is besides the point.

To the people who disagree with the course the parents are taking, what do you suggest? Start female hormone regimen and sugery plans, even if the kid isn't certain? Or let him be, and think it's just a phase?

What's wrong with pushing the pause button?

 

[Trojita]

This. And it's a lot harder to SRS after puberty and be "passable." Look up Kim Petras, who started treatment at 12. No way would she look like that if she hadn't started so early, and I'm sure her life is a lot easier because of it.

I'd smang it.

 

[Charoncaori]

Spoiler

I know of no rule that says that girls can't be kick ass super stealthy ninja like characters. Sheik is a girl. It's kind of a Metroid situation. Playing the game most people probably assumed Samus was male so the reveal at the end was shocking. But nothing Sheik does or says that I remember says that they were male.

Spoiler

I agree with that. But a lot of people specifically say she's acting like a guy to fool Ganondorf, who's looking for a girl... I'm guessing it works a bit better in Japan, with gender-ambiguous pronouns. So, those are our two sides.

 

[Acerac]

Spoiler

I know of no rule that says that girls can't be kick ass super stealthy ninja like characters. Sheik is a girl. It's kind of a Metroid situation. Playing the game most people probably assumed Samus was male so the reveal at the end was shocking. But nothing Sheik does or says that I remember says that they were male.

Spoiler

Are we really spoilering discussion of Ocarina of Time and METROID 1?!? Seriously?

 

[Charoncaori]

Spoiler

Are we really spoilering discussion of Ocarina of Time and METROID 1?!? Seriously?

I was only spoiler-ing because it was only tangentially related to the discussion at hand. But yeah.

 

[BobsRevenge]

Er-I don't see the issue provided it's the childs choice. If the child came up to them and said "I may be a girl in a boys body." Then no issue. If they're doing it on a whim, then yeah I've got problems with it.

Kid's the one that decides if he's a she or vice-versa. And given they say there's little to not-much side-effects from it (I'm no expert, so)... I don't see the big deal if it's the kids choice.

The child is making a decision they aren't cognitively developed enough to understand properly, before they've gone through the hormonal changes that most strongly influence their sexual development.

It's premature, from my perspective. It's like giving the child a choice to get married at age 11 and then going through with it legally (okay, it's only sorta like that and it's more complicated and biological, but you get the idea I hope).

 

[Pachterballs]

NOPE YOU JUST DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE

let's just slap some hormone blockers on this kid and call it a day

gotta love the YOU DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE trolls.

 

[Mumei]

Provided the lede of the story is true and the parents are providing the child hormone blockers on their own as part of making a philosophical point, that's problematic.

Providing that the rest of the story is true--no, not the part where they randomly quote a Doctor who doesn't believe in transgendered people; the part where they suggest that Tommy has been seeing doctors for years about gender identity problems and that this might be part of a doctor-overseen regimen--I'm less bothered. I don't know the kid. I'm not a psychiatrist. If experts in the field come to a consensus that this is an appropriate therapeutic regimen, I'm not as bothered.

.

There was a really interesting documentary about transgenderism on National Geographic, and one of the people followed was a little boy who at a very early age decided that he was female and began presenting as such. He changed his name, insisted on using female pronouns, etc., and her family was pretty open with this. Her parts are pretty adorable, honestly, and his parents explained some of the motivation for why they were considering using hormone blockers for her (how upset and depressed she'd be made by physical changes to her body becoming more masculine, for instance).

 

[J-Rod]

I read the article and am still disturbed. I am no doctor and do not know what the long term affects of such can be, but delaying a child's purberty with hormone blockers does not sound like something to take lightly at all. They are delaying a child's physiological growth for years beyond when they are supposed to reach puberty, and gaf looks at it like it's no big deal at all. The same gaf that thinks foreskin removal is barbaric mutilation.

 

[Gaborn]

The child is making a decision they aren't cognitively developed enough to understand properly, before they've gone through the hormonal changes that most strongly influence their sexual development.

It's premature, from my perspective. It's like giving the child a choice to get married at age 11 and then going through with it legally (okay, it's only sorta like that and it's more complicated, but you get the idea I hope).

They're not talking about SRS or HRT. All they're doing is delaying puberty.

 

[Kalnos]

I read the article and am still disturbed. I am no doctor and do not know what the long term affects of such can be, but delaying a child's purberty with hormone blockers does not sound like something to take lightly at all. They are delaying a child's physiological growth for years beyond when they are supposed to reach puberty, and gaf looks at it like it's no big deal at all. The same gaf that thinks foreskin removal is barbaric mutilation.

Oh god, this is about to get ugly.

 

[btkadams]

I read the article and am still disturbed. I am no doctor and do not know what the long term affects of such can be, but delaying a child's purberty with hormone blockers does not sound like something to take lightly at all. They are delaying a child's physiological growth for years beyond when they are supposed to reach puberty, and gaf looks at it like it's no big deal at all. The same gaf that thinks foreskin removal is barbaric mutilation.

looks like we're going to have a party in here!

 

[water_wendi]

The child is making a decision they aren't cognitively developed enough to understand properly, before they've gone through the hormonal changes that most strongly influence their sexual development.

It's premature, from my perspective. It's like giving the child a choice to get married at age 11 and then going through with it legally (okay, it's only sorta like that and it's more complicated, but you get the idea I hope).

Most transsexual people know something is wrong at a very early age.

 

[Charoncaori]

The child is making a decision they aren't cognitively developed enough to understand properly, before they've gone through the hormonal changes that most strongly influence their sexual development.

It's premature, from my perspective. It's like giving the child a choice to get married at age 11 and then going through with it legally (okay, it's only sorta like that and it's more complicated, but you get the idea I hope).

While true that sexual desire only really happens with puberty, this isn't about sexual preference, this is about being horribly disgusted with your body and having something wrong with your sense of self. Documentaries I've watched mention kids feeling like a part of them doesn't belong. In one of them, the kid's parents thought it was a phase until they caught the kid in the bathroom attempting to take a pair of nail clippers to their privates. It's much more complicated than you'd think.

 

[Mr.Awesome]

I read the article and am still disturbed. I am no doctor and do not know what the long term affects of such can be, but delaying a child's purberty with hormone blockers does not sound like something to take lightly at all. They are delaying a child's physiological growth for years beyond when they are supposed to reach puberty, and gaf looks at it like it's no big deal at all. The same gaf that thinks foreskin removal is barbaric mutilation.

Those guys don't even tip 15%.

 

[789shadow]

No no no no no no. God damn it. I don't exactly think he was confused about his gender.

 

[BobsRevenge]

They're not talking about SRS or HRT. All they're doing is delaying puberty.

But delaying puberty is delaying the final stage before they are able to make a truly informed decision. That's the angle I'm trying to come from.

 

[Gaborn]

I read the article and am still disturbed. I am no doctor and do not know what the long term affects of such can be, but delaying a child's purberty with hormone blockers does not sound like something to take lightly at all. They are delaying a child's physiological growth for years beyond when they are supposed to reach puberty, and gaf looks at it like it's no big deal at all. The same gaf that thinks foreskin removal is barbaric mutilation.

Rather than a pleasant, happy experience for the child?

BobsRevenge - I'm not sure that puberty inherently develops the brain in that way overly much. As I pointed out earlier David Reimer was clearly showing signs that his mind was aware of his male gender despite the SRS his parents put him through.

 

[Wiseblade]

Read the thread title - Freaked out. "This is child abuse! lock these parent away for life!" etc.

Read the article - Still not cool with it. Clearly the kid has real gender issues but 11 seems way to early to be making those kind of decisions. I get that hormone inhibitors are supposed to give the child time to think about everything, but it just seems like it's set in stone already.



But what do I know; I'm just a guy on a videogame forum.

 

[Boney]

Spoiler

I know of no rule that says that girls can't be kick ass super stealthy ninja like characters. Sheik is a girl. It's kind of a Metroid situation. Playing the game most people probably assumed Samus was male so the reveal at the end was shocking. But nothing Sheik does or says that I remember says that they were male.

Spoiler

sheik is refered as a "he" by Ruto I think. At least in OoT 3d

 

[Acerac]

gotta love the YOU DIDN'T READ THE ARTICLE trolls.

Delaying puberty is A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

 

[Trojita]

This is simply false.

Such a sad story

We don't have an exact time when he started exhibiting male type behavior besides knowing it was in school and before the age of 9. The article also states that "prenatal exposure to male hormones that turns normal male babies into boys". Which is different than this case where the boy is biologically a boy and views themselves as a girl. I just seriously doubt the "3 year old self identified as a girl at that age" story.

 

[mrpoopy]

4 pages and no justin beiber hormone blocker jokes

 

[Charoncaori]

Read the thread title - Freaked out. "This is child abuse! lock these parent away for life!" etc.

Read the article - Still not cool with it. Clearly the kid has real gender issues but 11 seems way to early to be making those kind of decisions. I get that hormone inhibitors are supposed to give the child time to think about everything, but it just seems like it's set in stone already.



But what do I know; I'm just a guy on a videogame forum.

That's fine, but these parents are making an informed choice based on all of the data available to them. They've probably done years of research on this topic. The people in this thread have not, and shouldn't condemn these parents for making a decision they know almost nothing about.

 

[Stet]

What are the risks and benefits? If you delay puberty, he may decide he really does want to be a boy, at which case he's a late developer and lives a normal life. If you don't delay puberty, he may go through it and decide he really is a female trapped in the body of a male and suffer the emotional damage that so many others in the same position have, considering untreated transsexuals have a 5x greater chance of suicide than the general population.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Maybe some day far in the future we will all be born as gender neutral proto humans. Then at age 12 they let us choose to be male or female.