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Could the Ps5 do quick resume if Sony desired it to?

reksveks

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As far as I know on the Series X, there is no way to see all the games that have been "suspended" in quick resume; what I mean is, a way for us to identify from the OS menu which games are in suspend mode and which ones aren't
There is a quick resume group on the series consoles but I don't know if you can add it to home.

I am thinking more about cloud syncs of QR states on the xbox side of things (know valve has publicly said that they are working on something like that).

Actually I think I have added it to my home screen.
 
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SpokkX

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Save state in virtual machines are basically dumping the RAM.

In Hyper-V case when you save state it is created two files:

- .vsv file is a small one that saves the general config of the virtual machine and has a fixed size of 20MB.
- .bin file is the dump of the RAM and has the size of the actual RAM of your virtual machine… in Series X case it is probably around 13GB.

So he didn’t misunderstand.
No it is not the same - technically dumping your system ram and restoring it later is WAY more complex since it also involves whatever the OS and system functions has allocated

If it was Easy this functionality would have existed in Windows for ages (resuming old game states from whatever game)

Dumping a VM state is easy.

Hence this functionality is probable not possible in the current ps5 os design
 

Utherellus

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10 Pages.. Answer is really easy and straightforward.

Quick Resume is based on Hyper-V Virtualization. They dump RAM info to SSD as a save state.





Unless Sony virtualizes their custom FreeBSD based OS, it's not really possible.

I mean, give me non encrypted PS5 OS image and I will Quick Resume games in it just like I Quick Resumed this instance of Stronghold Crusader running inside VirtualBox.

 

Soosa

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Could PS5 do quick resume? Most likely yes, if Sony wanted to. How much reworking on the software it would need, no idea.

Personally I dont see quick resume as essential feature, just like VRR = gamers have lived decades without it, so it is far from essential feature, nice to have, but it is nothing that we cant live without.
I personally bought Sony A8H last year as I didnt care about VRR and still doesnt care, console games have been good enough till now so adding VRR doesnt solve anything because there isnt anything to solve (to me).

I just dont see the importance of "I can play game A, then jump to game B, then to C, then to A!" as a selling point.

Yes, some people do that for some reason, but it feels too alien to me, but yet some people see it really cool thing to do. Yet we all are "right" from our personal point of view.

But who honestly literally cant wait for 5-60 seconds while switching between games, when we all probably "wasting" minutes while gaming, having small breaks etc.

It is like one reall fast car is 15% faster than another really fast car on drag race, owner of the faster car can feel superiority, while in real life nobody drag races or at least should do it on public roads, so it is useless to argue.

XBox and ps5, both load games faster than enough to not to be any problem. Last gen games like RDR2 loading minutes, that I can get that it sucks. But when it usually is 1-3s (quick resume) vs 3-30s (PS5 cold boot of native games) = nobody dies from old age while waiting for either of those times :messenger_beaming:

Another thing that could explain this is that Xbox + digital games are popular on US, and Playstation and physical games are popular on EU.

So, as European gamer with 70/30 physical vs digital library quick resume doesn't sound that usefull, as finding & changing the disc takes some time anyway, so even if disc game would quick resume too, I have already "wasted time" to switch the disc and it doesnt matter to me anyway and it is a good chance to get up and walk a little.

BUT of course it is great that some xbox gamers find quick resume suiting their needs, nothing bad on it!


If somone wants to switch between 5 games within 2 minutes, then why not, be happy for them because they can. But they cant really force their behaviour based opition as truth for other people with different behaviour based opinions either, and vice versa.

Playstation gamers wont lose much without it either, kind of like if some people dont care about hapics + adaptive triggers = they dont lose anything while gaming on xbox.

I use "stand-by 1 game quick resume" on PS5 and used it on PS4 too, to me 1 game that loads instantly is really great, but more than 1 game would not be that important to me.

I usually play 1 game, and if somebody wants to play multiplayer game, I just switch discs and load it, it doesnt take that long to feel like a nuinsance.

Now if it would be that xbox could quick resume 1 game (or more), but playstation could not at all = then I would get it that there is a major featural difference.

Personally I see this thread kind of weird, because people are fighting for opinions and personal preferences, there isnt really any 1 truth.

Quick resume is great if it works and user needs it, but it is also not important if it doesnt always work or user doesnt need it.

It is also showing how close these new consoles are, because people are literally arguing hundreds of pages for SECONDS of loading time / quick resume, or REALLY small fps / graphic differences.

Will I personally use quick resume, when I manage to get series x? yes, probably as it is more hazzle to not to use it, than use it. Will it be major factor to me to get xbox?

No. Games that are not on PS5 are.
 

Thirty7ven

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It’s such a non issue for next gen games. With good checkpoint systems or save anywhere, quick resume would become redundant on PS5.

Better card system integration is all it’s needed. Quick resume is a footnote, it’s nice to have sure.
 
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Riky

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There is a quick resume group on the series consoles but I don't know if you can add it to home.

I am thinking more about cloud syncs of QR states on the xbox side of things (know valve has publicly said that they are working on something like that).

Actually I think I have added it to my home screen.

Yes you can add it to your home and see exactly what is suspended, it's a real next gen feature.
 

FrankWza

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but that also brings up a HUGE issue with Quick Resume at the moment... any game can only be suspended ONCE per console.
meaning if you have 2 or 3 people using the same console and you play the same game. only 1 Quick Resume state can be saved PER GAME.

as soon as Profile 1 has Forza Horizon 5 in QR, and Profile 2 tries to start the game, it will tell you that you will have to erase Profil 1's Quick Resume state

and it honestly makes no sense to me... like why? why not have 2 separate suspended instances?
Does anyone know if this was patched or is it still limited?
 

skit_data

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Yes, Demon's Souls too. I noticed because I got mad at the stupid dragon in 1-4 and decided to save my game to the cloud. After closing the game and redownloading my save, it took mere seconds to go from a cold boot to back in my game. The PS intro doesn't happen.

When I replayed the game months later, it happened again, but only once. So, I'm not sure what triggers it, but there is some amount of time you must go without starting the game to see those intro screens and animations.
I think its related to the game or system software being updated. If one of those are updated, it shows the PS-Studios intro(which is the only one that’s non-skippable).

At least that’s the pattern I’ve noticed.
 

khakimzhan

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I am seeing splash screens all the time (Demon’s Soul, playing it since the launch). Just now, I tried it - splash screen is there
 

Allandor

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Technically speaking, quick resume is hardware related right? Does the XSX and SX have internal hardware that the Ps5 doesn't have? They both have SSD's with Sony's being the superior from what I understand so what is stopping them from implementing this awesome feature.
No, it is pure software. It is really not a problem to "backup" the memory state of a game and safe it anywhere if the game makes no problems (e.g. like open network connections). As almost all games support the "instant-on" feature, I really don't see a problem there for single player games.
BUT (and this is really a problem) the PS5 has a really low write speed. I guess sony didn't really care about write speeds as they are fast enough to install games from the network or disc. So write speed wasn't needed. And that is the problem with quick-resume on PS5. It would just be to slow. It is much easier to just load the game up and run it.
I would really prefer if they implement a software-solution in games. E.g. make a savegame with the current state and that's all that needed to get you to the point were you were. That "savegame" would be much smaller and much more efficient. Quick resume right now is a "brute force" method.
 

Jaysen

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I ran game, turned off my PS5, turned on PS5, launched game again - saw splash screens
Yep, every single time there are splash screens for Housemarque and Sony whenever I play Returnal. Every single time. Same is true of Demons Souls. It’s not a big deal though since they’re quick. What’s a big deal is having something as cool as the card system is and half assing it or not using it at all.
 
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Clear

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Sony and MS approach to their whole software/OS stacks is probably the biggest point of differentiation between their offerings. I think its fair to say both have their strong points. After all both lean into their parent companies historic strengths in order to accomplish their objectives; Sony for more hardware orientated solutions and MS relying on a thick but robust OS layer.

It'd be interesting to see which approach would be adopted were another big player (say Apple) were to enter the space with a similarly specced platform. Nintendo are just too much of a Galapagos-style institution at this point to read much from what they do.
 
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SpokkX

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10 Pages.. Answer is really easy and straightforward.

Quick Resume is based on Hyper-V Virtualization. They dump RAM info to SSD as a save state.





Unless Sony virtualizes their custom FreeBSD based OS, it's not really possible.

I mean, give me non encrypted PS5 OS image and I will Quick Resume games in it just like I Quick Resumed this instance of Stronghold Crusader running inside VirtualBox.

THIS

Can someone just close this thread and mark it as answered with this post

This here is the actual answer.

It is pointless to argue about FACTS.
You might THINK the Sun could spin around the Earth. In reality it CANT.

PS5 does not use virtualization and therefore cannot do what quick resume does.
This is how things ACTUALLY WORK people.


Now. Sony COULD make major changes to their OS and begin to run ther games in a virtual machine (like Xbox does).. but they need virtualziation software like Hyper V och VMWare - which they do not own and is quite expensive
 

ManaByte

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Now. Sony COULD make major changes to their OS and begin to run ther games in a virtual machine (like Xbox does).. but they need virtualziation software like Hyper V och VMWare - which they do not own and is quite expensive
Sony has been Linux based forever. Linux can do virtualization via KVM. But as people who understand what virtualization is in this thread have already brought up, it would require a complete overhaul of both the console OS and how games are made and run on it.
 

reksveks

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I would really prefer if they implement a software-solution in games. E.g. make a savegame with the current state and that's all that needed to get you to the point were you were. That "savegame" would be much smaller and much more efficient. Quick resume right now is a "brute force" method.
Not just about brute force, a save state like most games doesn't remember all the dynamic elements in the world whereas the quick resume state does. I do think that upping the autosaving frequency might get you a bit closer though.
 

Jaysen

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Sony has been Linux based forever. Linux can do virtualization via KVM. But as people who understand what virtualization is in this thread have already brought up, it would require a complete overhaul of both the console OS and how games are made and run on it.
Yep, on PS5 we are stuck with the card system. Hopefully Sony themselves as well as third parties start to use them better.
 

ToTTenTranz

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I think we need to consider the chance that Sony isn't implementing quick resume because they don't want to.

Quick resume sounds like an awesome feature at first, but in my experience it's also responsible for gamers to lose focus and persistence on finishing one game to play another as soon as they get mildly bored.


Unless Sony virtualizes their custom FreeBSD based OS, it's not really possible.

I mean, give me non encrypted PS5 OS image and I will Quick Resume games in it just like I Quick Resumed this instance of Stronghold Crusader running inside VirtualBox.

Why would a hypervisor be needed to load a save state of the game?

I'm pretty sure the memory addresses available for games are fixed. All they need to do is a method to save the content in those addresses into the SSD, and another to load said state into memory.


Sony has been Linux based forever.
AFAIK FreeBSD isn't Linux, it's Unix.
And Linux Is Not UniX.
 
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Riky

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10 Pages.. Answer is really easy and straightforward.

Quick Resume is based on Hyper-V Virtualization. They dump RAM info to SSD as a save state.





Unless Sony virtualizes their custom FreeBSD based OS, it's not really possible.

I mean, give me non encrypted PS5 OS image and I will Quick Resume games in it just like I Quick Resumed this instance of Stronghold Crusader running inside VirtualBox.


That pretty much ends this debate 🤣
 
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ethomaz

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THIS

Can someone just close this thread and mark it as answered with this post

This here is the actual answer.

It is pointless to argue about FACTS.
You might THINK the Sun could spin around the Earth. In reality it CANT.

PS5 does not use virtualization and therefore cannot do what quick resume does.
This is how things ACTUALLY WORK people.


Now. Sony COULD make major changes to their OS and begin to run ther games in a virtual machine (like Xbox does).. but they need virtualziation software like Hyper V och VMWare - which they do not own and is quite expensive
MS accomplished that using Hyper-V that doesn't means there aren't others forms to reach the same.
You just need to dump the game memory to the SSD and load it... you can create several dumps (BTW QuickResume is limited to 12 if I'm not wrong) for each game and work like that.

Technically you don't require a Virtual Machine... you require free space in disk (~13GB for each game/dump).
 
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DeepEnigma

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MS accomplished that using Hyper-V that doesn't means there isn't other form to reach the same.
You just need to dump the game memory to the SSD and load it... you can create several dumps (BTW QuickResume is limited to 12 if I'm not wrong) for each game and work like that.

It is not required to need a Virtual Machine.
The only way is the MS way. Just like VRS and and DX.
 

ToTTenTranz

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Because QR isn't a save state as many other people have already explained in this thread.

Sony doesn't need to use the Xbox's exact same method to enable quick resume in their console.

The Series consoles also rely on XB1's hypervisor for enhanced backwards compatibility, but its absence in PS4 and PS5 isn't stopping Sony from implementing their own BC Boost mode either.

Like I wrote above, game data in the RAM is specified in a fixed range of memory addresses. I'd find it pretty hard to believe it's a technical impossibility to dump that memory into the SSD and load another state.

Of course, this would come at a cost of available storage and some potential problems with gamer engagement.
I would personally welcome this feature on my PS5 but I understand why it might not be in Sony's list of priorities. It could be that SIE is convinced that their card system is good enough to cater for gamers' needs.
 

ethomaz

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The only way is the MS way. Just like VRS and and DX.
There are Apps that does that without need a Virtual Machine in Linux for example.


In Windows we have Hourglass (that doesn't need Virtual Machines either) that works in very few games due how Windows manage memory but of course that is Windows where developers have limited access to the core.

So it is not something that can't be done without a Virtual Machine or Hyper-V.
You just need to work to secure save and load the memory part used by the App.

What made QR possible is the SSD and not the Hype-V.
After all 13GB (I'm estimating the max RAM that can be used by games... some can use less I don't know... it needs to know how mych RAM is available in the VM that runs games on Series X) RAM dump needs around 6 seconds just to save to disc... and to load more 6 seconds.
 
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Nope. PlayStation won't be able to use Quck Resume Feature. I've just spend like 1 hour looking through Microsoft patents, and they've patented Quick Resume..

Patent ID: 11103780

BACKGROUND​

Today digital games may include a large amount of data so that a significant amount of content may be loaded for the game when a user launches a game to play. Thus, from launching the game to getting ready to play may take several minutes. The delay in loading games may either deter users from playing the game or users may choose to partake in a secondary activity while the game boots up.

In addition, users have limited options for pausing and/or saving game play. Gaming consoles today can hibernate or suspend a game in active play. However, the gaming consoles must maintain power during the hibernated state so that the game can be persistently stored in memory and rehydrate itself allowing a user to continue to play the same game. Thus, if the console loses power and/or another user played the game or a different game in the interim, the suspended game may not restart.

These and other problems exist in providing gaming content to end users.

 
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ethomaz

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Nope. PlayStation won't be able to use Quck Resume Feature. I've just spend like 1 hour looking through Microsoft patents, and they've patented Quick Resume..

Patent ID: 11103780



If you do it without use virtualization that patent already means nothing.

That is how software patents works… another name, different code, etc.
 
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Haggard

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Nope. PlayStation won't be able to use Quck Resume Feature. I've just spend like 1 hour looking through Microsoft patents, and they've patented Quick Resume..

Patent ID: 11103780



lol, that patent means absolutely nothing.....
There are lots of ways and hundreds of variables in the process to save software states and it has been done outside of gaming long before MS came up with that feature name for it...
All that patent does is prevent a 100% copy paste approach.
 
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If you do it without use virtualization that patent already means nothing.

That is how software patents works… another name, different code, etc.
I wouldn't say Sony, but Nintendo has already patent something like that.. Completely different to Quick Resume Feature

You can use different codes, but not the same technique.

 
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Topher

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I wouldn't say Sony, but Nintendo has already patent something like that.. Completely different to Quick Resume Feature

You can use different codes, but not the same technique.


Sony has patents as well....

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/7144...ze-save-states-with-instant-launch/index.html
 

Topher

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If you actually read the Patent, PlayStation 5 already has that... It's the switcher feature

Edit: it's the same patent, everyone thought it was similar to Quick Resume feature on Neogaf

Did you read the patent? Where a game state can be potentially stored on cloud servers including "competitive gameplay"? How is that the same as the switcher?
 
Nov 21, 2018
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Did you read the patent? Where a game state can be potentially stored on cloud servers including "competitive gameplay"? How is that the same as the switcher?
The patent says..
A method for directly launching interactive content, the method comprising: establishing a session with a user device, wherein a set of templates is provided to the user device in the session, each template defining a different activity within an interactive content title and linking to a starting point of the corresponding defined activity within the interactive content title; receiving a selection from the user device specifying one of the provided set of templates; identifying the activity defined by selected template, the identified activity associated with an identified interactive content title; and launching the identified activity within the interactive content title at the starting point linked to by the selected template.


It's activity cards.. This patent was filed last year, and everyone thought it was similar to Quick Resume.


How could it be the same as the switcher? Because it launches direct Gameplay
 
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Topher

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The patent says..



It's activities (Switcher).. This patent was filed last year, and everyone thought it was similar to Quick Resume.


How could it be the same as the switcher? Because it launches direct Gameplay

The patent says a lot more than that, but regardless, it is still talking about saving off gameplay at a specific point to be reused or even shared. Sounds like something that could be expanded on to accomplish much of what QR does.
 

DeepEnigma

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Software patents are the method usually using their proprietary tech and with finite detail in the methodology.

For example, people said Sony could not play music in the background of games because MS had a patent with the 360 back when that was a thing. But the patent was only for their 'blade' for 'ripped CDs stored on the system in a certain audio format.'

And guess what? Sony has been able to play music in the background via streaming services such as Spotify and Apple Music with their own methods of achieving it.
 
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sainraja

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I ran game, turned off my PS5, turned on PS5, launched game again - saw splash screens
Maybe it varies from game to game but that tells me it's not really a system specific feature (or it is but the dev studio has a choice) so it's not something that we will find to be consistent. When I started up Ghost, it took me straight to the game's menu on second launch, ready to start the game. Not every game does this (e.g. Sackboy Adventure but you can skip the intros, so the team behind Sackboy Adventure decided to show.)

And looks like no takers on how Sony should approach it, if they were to add something similar to quick resume.
 
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Plantoid

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People who never experienced quick resume downplaying it. It's like when the green rats downplay the dualsense
 

Jaysen

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People who never experienced quick resume downplaying it. It's like when the green rats downplay the dualsense
Pretty much. Except the trigger shit on the Dualsense is straight up awful. The haptics are unmatched though.
 

dano1

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I’m sure it could but that uses up SSD. No thanks!! The game I’m currently playing is more than enough for me. Why would you want 5 or more games taking up memory??
 
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I don't think so. Quick Resume is effectively hitting 'pause' on a virtual machine and PS games don't run in a VM as far as I know.

It's a very common feature of virtualization software. But enabling it on a host machine is whole different ballgame.

It's still possible. It's just about defining a container in which the game application would run, allowing you to save the game state to the SSD on a shut-down. If the dev selects specifically which data gets dumped based on the wrapper, then you would save on the need to dump the entire RAM contents to the SSD as you can be way more selective; and the SSD + I/O is so quick that loading the rest on-demand is pretty instantaneous anyway.

Sony could define the wrapper and roll it into the next version of the SDK and ask devs to support it moving forwards, so it wouldn't be applicable to existing games developed thus far.

Functionally, however, I'm not sure I see the point. Games currently boot from cold on PS5 fast enough that shaving off the last couple of seconds feels like a negotiation in diminishing returns.

Their activity cards system is good enough for the games that support it, and for the games that don't the cold boot that just that fast that it doesn't matter anymore.

With my PS5, I don't even bother to suspend and resume games anymore because a cold boot and load is fast enough that perceptively it doesn't feel like there's much difference. And some games don't play nice with suspend and resume and end up having stability issues that compound after multiple suspend resumes, e.g. Subnautica has framerate issues and Destiny 2 ends up corrupting the whole fucking game and needing a full re-install.
 

Fafalada

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we don't know that tho, and honestly I'm not sure if they could compress THAT fast...
There's an 8 core CPU and a pretty general-purpose programmable GPU that can assist with it.
Also given memory images compress 'really' well on average, SSD wear&tear is a thing, and write-speeds are capped significantly lower than read for these consoles - it'd be really strange design choice if they weren't compressing in some way.

I don't think so. Quick Resume is effectively hitting 'pause' on a virtual machine and PS games don't run in a VM as far as I know.
All Sony consoles starting with PSP have run behind a hypervisor (PSP was also the first console to implement Quick-Resume in 2010). I don't know details for this on PS5, but it'd be interesting choice, if they backed-away from it after 16 years.

I am telling how it is... there is no way Sony sees any monetary value in implementing it and implementing it would cut away an additional 60 to 80 GiB of space from the SSD.
Cost/value trade-off I presume they do know (given they've done it 10 years ago) but I don't think that any of us have an insight there. Or are you implying this is a low-value feature from user-perspective?
The space tradeoff doesn't seem like a big deal given that average PS5 install is 30-50% smaller than other platforms, and they could always restrict it to fewer images in flight.
 

Utherellus

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Again, it is not impossible to freeze game state without virtualization.

But for that you have to freeze entire OS with it. I was very interested with this question and did some research to achieve similar results on PC.

Only thing that comes close is Hibernation. Other than that, there was nothing on PC that could replicate Quick Resume. Neither on Microsoft side, nor some kind of 3rd party software.

Without virtualization all you can achieve with any OS is this:

 
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ethomaz

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Again, it is not impossible to freeze game state without virtualization.

But for that you have to freeze entire OS with it. I was very interested with this question and did some research to achieve similar results on PC.

Only thing that comes close is Hibernation. Other than that, there was nothing on PC that could replicate Quick Resume. Neither on Microsoft side, nor some kind of 3rd party software.

Without virtualization all you can achieve with any OS is this:

That is not true... you don't nee virtualization at all.

I posted an App that does that on Linux.
It only freezes the part of the memory used by the App... it doesn't need to freeze the whole OS.

"It can freeze a running container (or an individual application) and checkpoint its state to disk."


BTW some uses of CRIU.

"Save" ability in apps (games), that don't have such​

Some arcades require you to complete next level to "fixup" the progress. With criu it can be done at any point.

Snapshots of apps​

With CRIU one can save a series of app's states (all but first incremental) and revert later to any of them. The "apply-images" item from TODO list should help to revert the state faster, especially if the memory changes tracker state is with us.

One of examples when this snapshot might be useful is debugging. One might need to bring an application into a "desired" state fast, and having dump at that state would speed things up.

More here: https://www.criu.org/Usage_scenarios
 
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