• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
  • The Politics forum has been nuked. Please do not bring political discussion to the rest of the site, or you will be removed. Thanks.

Could the Ps5 do quick resume if Sony desired it to?

Hoddi

Member
Nov 3, 2020
273
388
305
I have an Android smart phone and an iPad. They all do "quick resume", no VM, no BS. I have not used a desktop Mac in a while, but if I remember well applications that are designed for it keep their states as well, same for applications like Notepad++ on windows, it just stores the relevant data in some temporary file.
Those aren't comparable. There's a huge difference between restoring a browser session and a full VM with every device driver and program state restored.

MacOS/iOS store the user session in the .plist format which are literally just text files. It's functionally no different from Firefox or Chrome restoring your previous session and is nothing like a VM savestate.
 
Jan 29, 2019
6,837
7,625
520
Those aren't comparable. There's a huge difference between restoring a browser session and a full VM with every device driver and program state restored.

MacOS/iOS store the user session in the .plist format which are literally just text files. It's functionally no different from Firefox or Chrome restoring your previous session and is nothing like a VM savestate.
VM save state is a way to achieve the functionality, I don't care how... This is not even the question.

The question is would it be possible to have something like quickresume, where you have the ability to restore the state of many games? The answer is yes.

Details of the implementation are not relevant to me when I press the X button on the menu to re-open a game.
 
  • Like
Reactions: vdopey

Loxus

Member
Sep 18, 2020
668
2,803
345
The Caribbean
VM save state is a way to achieve the functionality, I don't care how... This is not even the question.

The question is would it be possible to have something like quickresume, where you have the ability to restore the state of many games? The answer is yes.

Details of the implementation are not relevant to me when I press the X button on the menu to re-open a game.
Well this site seems to agree with you.

PlayStation 5's SSD may revolutionize save states with instant launch
A recently published Sony patent could hint at a new era of save states, customization, and overall user control on the PlayStation 5. The new feature is kind of like the Xbox Series X's Quick Resume functionality with a twist: Instead of the OS automatically bookmarking the segment you last played, you can actually set the save states yourself.

The patent, which is titled Dynamic Interfaces For Launching Direct Gameplay, refers to the save states as "templates" and basically outlines a new kind of save that's not just limited to gameplay. Users can set the console to boot to a multiplayer menu, for example, or directly into the last-played game segment that's been marked. Imagine being able to boot up right into a boss fight without having to run through the entire level again, or get another try at a tough puzzle.

The patent covers a lot of bases and the idea has a wide variety of potential. The most interesting one, though, is being able to automatically store a save of a specific game segment on your SSD that can be accessed for later use. The spectrum of potential use cases also includes PlayStation Network and PlayStation Now, and isn't just limited to offline play.


This might be implemented in a future update. For right now, I don't know.

People tend to think there's only one way to achieve something and it has to be Microsoft's way.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Jun 22, 2004
7,869
703
1,795
This reminds me, PSP Go had a savestate feature though it was limited to one game. But the hacking community created a save state plugin called PSPStates that did the same thing but for multiple games.
Worth noting hacking community didn't create save-states, they just removed the one-state limit of the existing feature, which was always just a storage/design choice. The same way you aren't allowed to have multiple save-states PER game on Series consoles (publishers would go nuts if platform holder allowed it).
Of course (and since people can't read, it's worth repeating) - with the PSP we no longer had direct access to the hw - in fact the last Sony console 'I' am aware of that did that was the PS2.

Now, admittedly I don't have any confidential details about the PS5 - so 'maybe' Sony decided to go back to the roots and did the PS1/PS2 again and the people arguing about save-states being nearly impossible are right - but it would be a weird change of direction.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Aug 28, 2019
9,207
16,931
660
Why would a hypervisor be needed to load a save state of the game?
People tend to think there's only one way to achieve something and it has to be Microsoft's way.

That's pretty clearly the "cards" functionality.

You guys just don't really "get" quick resume TBH. That article is just.. wrong too.. the word "save" doesn't even appear in the patent. It's a way of exposing essentially menu options from within a game to the OS. That's.. it.. and it's cool, but it has little to do with a generic "save state" functionality.

It's fine; you can do something KINDA SIMILAR in different ways, but the idea behind quick resume isn't "Microsoft's way" it's a pretty generic concept that requires the level of memory isolation a VM/hypervisor allows to work reliably (and it's far from 100% reliable, but it's far better than other attempts at anything similar from a "the software doesn't have to do anything" perspective.)
 
Last edited:

DrAspirino

Member
Nov 19, 2018
749
1,034
550
Chile
You assume that the way MS did it the only way that applications can "quick resume", or that it's the best possible implementation for games.

obviously Sony won't have the MS version of the feature (if they ever do have a version of it that works on more than 1 game at a time).

Use your phone, reboot and re-open your apps... this is like magic or something, no VMs or containers.
The way MS did it is the way virtualization is done on PC and servers, with different OSs and hypervisors. In fact, the most common hypervisors are Linux KVM, and vSphere Hypervisor from VMware, both being used extensively with that formula: Hypervisor running many OSs, balancing loads and allowing them access to bare metal.

Quick Resume is just a byproduct of using VMs as strategy. You can do that with KVM and vSphere as well on PC, so it isn't a "new" feature or a Microsoft proprietary technology.

Oh, and regarding phones, once apps fill the RAM, the next app you open begins from 0, so they're not effectively "paused" like they would if they were cotained within virtual machines.
 
  • Like
Reactions: alabtrosMyster

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
42,152
44,909
1,310
39
Brazil
Oh, and regarding phones, once apps fill the RAM, the next app you open begins from 0, so they're not effectively "paused" like they would if they were cotained within virtual machines.
That is actually wrong on iOS like explained before.
Even filling all the RAM, shutdown, changing the battery, etc it will be back to where you left the last time.

Like I said I don't use Android so I can't tell how it works there but iOS uses a save state file on disc to archive that... of course it is a Dev choice to allow that or not.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: alabtrosMyster
Jan 29, 2019
6,837
7,625
520
The way MS did it is the way virtualization is done on PC and servers, with different OSs and hypervisors. In fact, the most common hypervisors are Linux KVM, and vSphere Hypervisor from VMware, both being used extensively with that formula: Hypervisor running many OSs, balancing loads and allowing them access to bare metal.

Quick Resume is just a byproduct of using VMs as strategy. You can do that with KVM and vSphere as well on PC, so it isn't a "new" feature or a Microsoft proprietary technology.

Oh, and regarding phones, once apps fill the RAM, the next app you open begins from 0, so they're not effectively "paused" like they would if they were cotained within virtual machines.
Yes, I know all that I have worked with virtual machines, hypervisors, containers for .. I'm not even sure how long.

I'm not sure if you want to have a discussion or bring counter points because I think we agree. As you said, the multiple states is a byproduct of Microsoft's convoluted approach to console OS (people like to use containers/etc. for everything these days "because they can")... That made it easy for them to use this specific approach, which is good.

I know for phones too, the idea is to think of other ways to gain similar functionality because it was implied that using hypervisor, etc. was the only possible way (I don't have to do it myself, so it's very easy!)... Which I find strange, there are always multiple implementations for a given solution to a problem.
People tend to think there's only one way to achieve something and it has to be Microsoft's way.
🦾

Obviously, Bill Gates invented the wheels back in the days, this is how MS made their money.
 

Tripolygon

Member
May 6, 2012
4,839
7,524
1,160
NYC
Worth noting hacking community didn't create save-states, they just removed the one-state limit of the existing feature, which was always just a storage/design choice. The same way you aren't allowed to have multiple save-states PER game on Series consoles (publishers would go nuts if platform holder allowed it).
Of course (and since people can't read, it's worth repeating) - with the PSP we no longer had direct access to the hw - in fact the last Sony console 'I' am aware of that did that was the PS2.

Now, admittedly I don't have any confidential details about the PS5 - so 'maybe' Sony decided to go back to the roots and did the PS1/PS2 again and the people arguing about save-states being nearly impossible are right - but it would be a weird change of direction.
True. All modern consoles I would say do have some abstraction layer, seeing as almost everything is done through some API with varying degrees of low-level access given to developers. With PS3 though Sony allowed users to install another OS besides the PS3 OS and Geohot's famous PS3 hack was through the hypervisor layer. Based on information in the public from various PS4 hacks, there are essentially 2 OSes running concurrently, one in the southbridge, that controls background services and the main OS.

In terms of save state being impossible? I can't say it is impossible but will they put resources into adding it to the general OS? Lots of Sony patents on save state for cloud games enable you to resume from where you stopped without having to rely on the in-game checkpoint system.
 
  • Like
Reactions: alabtrosMyster

vdopey

Gold Member
Jun 13, 2019
179
308
410
True. All modern consoles I would say do have some abstraction layer, seeing as almost everything is done through some API with varying degrees of low-level access given to developers. With PS3 though Sony allowed users to install another OS besides the PS3 OS and Geohot's famous PS3 hack was through the hypervisor layer. Based on information in the public from various PS4 hacks, there are essentially 2 OSes running concurrently, one in the southbridge, that controls background services and the main OS.

In terms of save state being impossible? I can't say it is impossible but will they put resources into adding it to the general OS? Lots of Sony patents on save state for cloud games enable you to resume from where you stopped without having to rely on the in-game checkpoint system.

I think Sony may do it the other way around as in the UI OS layer the users are presented is a separate vm running on top of the main OS which the games run on, that way they give the game raw access to the hardware and the vm acts as a security / abstraction layer to stop tampering or something to this effect. (This approach at least logically makes sense to me - you want to reduce impact of too many abstractions from gpu to game engine and also limit as much as you can the ui layer so that it never consumes more than the hard limit you assign it)

The other reason I say this is because of how they approach backwards compatibility - it seems they use specific hardware states or clock speeds for backwards compatibility in fact the approaches to solutions of both companies is very telling of the thought process of the engineers. Sony being a manufacturing / hardware company first and foremost tackles the issue using custom silicon, it works out ways to cut frequencies etc to make the hardware perform the same. Microsofts approach is almost always through software.

Both have their pros and cons, but I suspect this is another reason why the PS5 performs better than expected.
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
Jan 25, 2018
2,043
1,856
555
England

You have only got to look at this, the Ps5 is actually having a bit of help here as they are already fucking around with the activity cards, it would be slower if they were to go to the activity cards from another game.
I don't mind waiting 25 secs for a game to load but how anyone can downplay QR when its doing what it is with a SSD at half the speed as the PS5 baffles me. Imagine how good it could be on PS5.
 

Loxus

Member
Sep 18, 2020
668
2,803
345
The Caribbean

You have only got to look at this, the Ps5 is actually having a bit of help here as they are already fucking around with the activity cards, it would be slower if they were to go to the activity cards from another game.
I don't mind waiting 25 secs for a game to load but how anyone can downplay QR when its doing what it is with a SSD at half the speed as the PS5 baffles me. Imagine how good it could be on PS5.
No one is downplaying Quick Resume. But faster overall loading in all games is better than quick resuming for some gamers.
Everyone has their own preference.

You guys act like it's some ground breaking feature.

I thought you guys would be happy to have it as an exclusive feature, not angry at other people for not seeing an immediate need for it.
 
Last edited:

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
42,152
44,909
1,310
39
Brazil

You have only got to look at this, the Ps5 is actually having a bit of help here as they are already fucking around with the activity cards, it would be slower if they were to go to the activity cards from another game.
I don't mind waiting 25 secs for a game to load but how anyone can downplay QR when its doing what it is with a SSD at half the speed as the PS5 baffles me. Imagine how good it could be on PS5.
IMO as a PS5 owner these loading times shows in NBA 2K22 are unacceptable… and you guys are still using it as example 😂

So if the dev messed up you can workaround with QuickResume? 🤔

Why not make the game use the loading capabilities of the machines to have sub-4s times?

And people says that old/lower spec hardware doesn’t hold gaming development lol
 
Last edited:

Pietanic

Member
Jun 3, 2013
1,138
2,312
885
Northern Ireland
I think it's a cool feature but I really only play 1 game at a time so it's really a non issue for me. I don't want to jump between a first person shooter and then a racing game, and then a 2d metroidvania all in the same session. Maybe some people do but it is just not a feature that I particularly care about. The tech behind it is undoubtedly cool however but I can't see the vast majority of people really caring about this or it being a deciding factor in their purchase over one console from another.
 

SF Kosmo

...please disperse...
Jul 7, 2020
7,879
9,368
735
Yes and no. Technically it's probably feasible but it might not be able to just automatically work with all the games that are already out. Like MS QAs games to work with that feature, and Sony can't just go back and expect that to work necessarily
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
Jan 25, 2018
2,043
1,856
555
England
IMO as a PS5 owner these loading times shows in NBA 2K22 are unacceptable… and you guys are still using it as example 😂

So if the dev messed up you can workaround with QuickResume? 🤔

Why not make the game use the loading capabilities of the machines to have sub-4s times?

And people says that old/lower spec hardware doesn’t hold gaming development lol
Here Ps5 is around twice as fast which it should be, the video is just to show what quick resume does.
And what's with the "you guys" It's me Bogroll and I've seen no proof of sub 4 sec games loading from the start.
 
Last edited:

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
Jan 25, 2018
2,043
1,856
555
England
No one is downplaying Quick Resume. But faster overall loading in all games is better than quick resuming for some gamers.
Everyone has their own preference.

You guys act like it's some ground breaking feature.

I thought you guys would be happy to have it as an exclusive feature, not angry at other people for not seeing an immediate need for it.
And here's another "You guys" Why would to love it as a exclusive feature ? I would love to have the feature on my PS5.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cormack12

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
42,152
44,909
1,310
39
Brazil
Here Ps5 is around twice as fast which it should be, the video is just to show what quick resume does.
And what's with the "you guys" It's me Bogroll and I've seen no proof of sub 4 sec games loading from the start.
The think Menu to gameplay was s ridiculous slow for a PS5 game.
The active cards parts for example is atrocious… it should be very few seconds.

I’m probably spoiled because I rarely plays multiplatforms due time constraints.
 
Last edited:

Loxus

Member
Sep 18, 2020
668
2,803
345
The Caribbean
And here's another "You guys" Why would to love it as a exclusive feature ? I would love to have the feature on my PS5.
So you prefer Quick Resume over these??

And it only going to get better as the OS is updated and game developers utilize the SSD more.

PlayStation may even have something better that save states if this patent gets implemented.

Quick Resume ain't that ground breaking when you can boot the game in a second and no load screens.

Not to many people are going to lose sleep just because you can't resume mid fight or race, especially when you can quickly load back just before you except the boss fight or race.

Imma give credit where it's due, it's a cool feature but if it's not possible on PS5 due to save states needing the game to be emulated first.

PS5 gamers going to be cool with just restarting the boss fight or race, especially with fast boot time and no load screens.
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
Jan 25, 2018
2,043
1,856
555
England
The think Menu to gameplay was s ridiculous slow for a PS5 game.
The active cards parts for example is atrocious… it should be very few seconds.

I’m probably spoiled because I rarely plays multiplatforms due time constraints.
But where are the sub 4 sec loading. I plug in my PS5 it loads Spiderman MM in about 22 secs from dead. Impressive as loading the save game is why does it take about 20 secs to load in the to the main menu ?
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
Jan 25, 2018
2,043
1,856
555
England
So you prefer Quick Resume over these??

And it only going to get better as the OS is updated and game developers utilize the SSD more.

PlayStation may even have something better that save states if this patent gets implemented.

Quick Resume ain't that ground breaking when you can boot the game in a second and no load screens.

Not to many people are going to lose sleep just because you can't resume mid fight or race, especially when you can quickly load back just before you except the boss fight or race.

Imma give credit where it's due, it's a cool feature but if it's not possible on PS5 due to save states needing the game to be emulated first.

PS5 gamers going to be cool with just restarting the boss fight or race, especially with fast boot time and no load screens.
I said I would like it as a option on my PS5 and imagine how good it could be with the faster SSD (if that's what it uses)
 

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
42,152
44,909
1,310
39
Brazil
But where are the sub 4 sec loading. I plug in my PS5 it loads Spiderman MM in about 22 secs from dead. Impressive as loading the save game is why does it take about 20 secs to load in the to the main menu ?
PS5 cold boot is close to 20s.
Stand By is around 12s.

MM loads in around 2s.
 
Last edited:

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
Jan 25, 2018
2,043
1,856
555
England
PS5 cold boot is close to 20s.
Stand By is around 12s.

MM loads in around 2s.
So using your figures ( your probably closer than me as it's been a while since I booted it up) It loads in 14 seconds. 12 plus 2 equals 14. Where is sub 4 sec loading ?
 

RespawnX

Member
Oct 25, 2018
155
185
280
No one is downplaying Quick Resume. But faster overall loading in all games is better than quick resuming for some gamers.
Everyone has their own preference.

You guys act like it's some ground breaking feature.

I thought you guys would be happy to have it as an exclusive feature, not angry at other people for not seeing an immediate need for it.

It is. Whole family gaming on XSX. It's nice to take over the controller and start your game in 10-15 seconds just at the point you left the console. Then hand it over to the kids, so they resume their Forza Horizon 5 save game in the same amount of time.
 

ethomaz

is mad because DF didn't do a video on a video of a video of a video on PS5
Mar 19, 2013
42,152
44,909
1,310
39
Brazil
So using your figures ( your probably closer than me as it's been a while since I booted it up) It loads in 14 seconds. 12 plus 2 equals 14. Where is sub 4 sec loading ?
All MM loads is below 4s... actually around 2s.
From the games I played Demon's Souls is the one that takes more time... it really stay on the 4s instead of 2s.
 
Last edited:

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
Jan 25, 2018
2,043
1,856
555
England
All MM loads is below 4s... actually around 2s.
From the games I played Demon's Souls is the one that takes more time... it really stay on the 4s instead of 2s.
Just tried mine approx 14 secs in total from dashboard or switching from another game.
 

Bogroll

Likes moldy games
Jan 25, 2018
2,043
1,856
555
England
If anyone is narrow minded, it's you.
You keep posting the same NBA2k video like that's the only load times the PS5 has.
Jesus Christ that's just a example of the 2 systems loading the same game from different situations. I'm no brain surgeon but are you really that thick. And then there's ethomaz who thinks 14seconds is under 4seconds to load a game from the dashboard.
I give up trying to talk to fanboys. Bye.
 

Jaysen

Member
Mar 19, 2021
1,480
2,780
430
So you prefer Quick Resume over these??

And it only going to get better as the OS is updated and game developers utilize the SSD more.

PlayStation may even have something better that save states if this patent gets implemented.

Quick Resume ain't that ground breaking when you can boot the game in a second and no load screens.

Not to many people are going to lose sleep just because you can't resume mid fight or race, especially when you can quickly load back just before you except the boss fight or race.

Imma give credit where it's due, it's a cool feature but if it's not possible on PS5 due to save states needing the game to be emulated first.

PS5 gamers going to be cool with just restarting the boss fight or race, especially with fast boot time and no load screens.
Yes, Quick Resume is better than all of those line items. Especially considering the vast majority of PS5 games still don’t utilize most of them.
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Loxus