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Devolver Digital seemingly passed on Game Pass/PS+ deals recently as the proposed agreements undervalued the games' value and revenue opportunities
- Thread starter Thick Thighs Save Lives
- Start date
- Business Game Dev
We had an article about this I think a while ago
www.gamesindustry.biz
Weaker subscription deals have hit indie publishers, says analyst
Sign up for the GI Daily here to get the biggest news straight to your inbox Smaller subscription deals and the underpe…
www.gamesindustry.biz
Thick Thighs Save Lives
Gold Member
This is from today thoughWe had an article about this I think a while ago
Weaker subscription deals have hit indie publishers, says analyst
Sign up for the GI Daily here to get the biggest news straight to your inbox Smaller subscription deals and the underpe…
Tsaki
Member
So they rejected short term revenue that would come from the cash given by GP/PS+ for the long term survivability of their IP. Makes sense since the more titles you put on subs at a closer time to launch, the more your company's games can be described as "No reason to buy, I'll wait for them on the subscription since they did it so many times already"
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ChuckeRearmed
Member
Well, I considering that their revenue is down, I guess the market did not find value in their games either
GHG
Member
Glad to see this type of pushback coming sooner than it did in other mainstream entertainment mediums that have become dominated by subscription services in recent years. In the case of music the pushback definitely didn't arrive until it was far too late.
The creators of the games and the owners of the IP set the terms, not the other way round. It's quite simple, get over and above you think your project is worth or walk away (and it needs to be over and above because in putting your game on a subscription service you are robbing yourself of significant sales opportunity in the instance where the public take to the game better than you expected).
Hopefully the majority of developers and publishers stand firm on this.
The creators of the games and the owners of the IP set the terms, not the other way round. It's quite simple, get over and above you think your project is worth or walk away (and it needs to be over and above because in putting your game on a subscription service you are robbing yourself of significant sales opportunity in the instance where the public take to the game better than you expected).
Hopefully the majority of developers and publishers stand firm on this.
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ShadowNate
Member
Devolver is still one of the few publishers I really like, and purchase titles day-one (as long as ther look interesting to me anyway) and this decision changes nothing.
I trust they are doing their best for surviving and being competitive in this market.
I trust they are doing their best for surviving and being competitive in this market.
FalsettoVibe
Member
I don't blame them.
It provides more official info on what was provided by an analyst a while back, was just saying it corroborates that past report. we had an article by an analyst saying that they have been affected by delays and had turned down subscription deals. It's now official with more numbers about their performance too. Not trying to suggest it's a duplicate thread or anything.
Magic Carpet
Member
This, I was looking forward to playing.
RickMasters
Member
Maybe at some point they will start their own sub service. They have a pretty sizeable catalog. And it’s always growing.
I don’t see them, not getting into subs in some form at some point.
Any fellow creative professionals in here? I am reminded of the audio plug in industry. It used to be all 300 dollar plug ins… with massive Black Friday and spring discounts. Pretty much every plug in developer now has a store front and subscription service. And much like many game devs, audio production plug in devs tend to be quiet small. They are all subbing their plug ins and software.
I don’t see a scenario where anybody that makes any kind of software is not subbing it out to their customers as an option. There will always be those who wish to own and those who simply want Tobias the product. Plug ins have an indefinite timeframe for use. You may use them for thousands of songs over years. A game is only gonna keep your interest for as long as it can before you move on. Consumers and devs will soon be on the same page with that one…… I feel sort of sorry for people who are fighting all this. Anytime there is disruptive change in industry there are always those that hang on to the old out of uncertainty of what comes next. It’s normal to be scared peeps. It’s normal to even fight the tides of change. But history has shown…. You are kind of fighting the inevitable.
I don’t see them, not getting into subs in some form at some point.
Any fellow creative professionals in here? I am reminded of the audio plug in industry. It used to be all 300 dollar plug ins… with massive Black Friday and spring discounts. Pretty much every plug in developer now has a store front and subscription service. And much like many game devs, audio production plug in devs tend to be quiet small. They are all subbing their plug ins and software.
I don’t see a scenario where anybody that makes any kind of software is not subbing it out to their customers as an option. There will always be those who wish to own and those who simply want Tobias the product. Plug ins have an indefinite timeframe for use. You may use them for thousands of songs over years. A game is only gonna keep your interest for as long as it can before you move on. Consumers and devs will soon be on the same page with that one…… I feel sort of sorry for people who are fighting all this. Anytime there is disruptive change in industry there are always those that hang on to the old out of uncertainty of what comes next. It’s normal to be scared peeps. It’s normal to even fight the tides of change. But history has shown…. You are kind of fighting the inevitable.
Thick Thighs Save Lives
Gold Member
Ah, thanks for the added context, and yes it's better to have this info straight from the horse's mouth (e.g. publishers themselves instead of industry analysts).
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Zheph
Member
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Bumblebeetuna
Member
Now that MS has ABK and needs to rely less and less on these thirty party GP deals, I can see more and more third parties saying nah.
I wonder how much they offer smaller pubs and studios for indies and smaller titles. That list of estimates for titles that leaked was insane.
I wonder how much they offer smaller pubs and studios for indies and smaller titles. That list of estimates for titles that leaked was insane.
Magic Carpet
Member
Or play the games on Gamepass.you can... buy it
Zheph
Member
the premise of your post was that it might not come to GP so if that is the case you won't play it?
Schmick
Member
I played Tinykin because it was on Gamepass. I wouldn't have played it otherwise.
Zheph
Member
this is crazy to me but if it works for you
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Yeah no one is going to buy one of their games if its on game pass. Hell I dont even know completely what games they have lol.
Really for a small indie style games to wirk they have to be REALLY FUN and or contain some reason for people to buy MTX content.
GP and any game subscription th ese days is like the rental issue int he 80s/90s * 1000. Small and SHort games are going to suffer.
But is that a completely bad thing if so crappy indie games become less and less? Well that depends if thats really the outcome. The only other way it could go is if pubs and devs make even more crappier indie style games to compensate.
Really for a small indie style games to wirk they have to be REALLY FUN and or contain some reason for people to buy MTX content.
GP and any game subscription th ese days is like the rental issue int he 80s/90s * 1000. Small and SHort games are going to suffer.
But is that a completely bad thing if so crappy indie games become less and less? Well that depends if thats really the outcome. The only other way it could go is if pubs and devs make even more crappier indie style games to compensate.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
If a publisher/developer has belief in their products, they will skip subscription services and take their chances in the open market.
Sony knows Spider-Man 2 and God of War Ragnarok would sell, so those didn't/won't launch on a subscription service. Sony also knew that Destruction All Stars would not sell, so they launched it on day one on PS Plus.
Same rule applies to Devolver Digital. They seem confident in their upcoming slate of games, which is a good sign.
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Tams
Member
There are only three occasions when putting your game on gaming subscription service maintains its financial value:
- Your game is old and well past its peak.
- The subscription service offers you multiple years worth of expected revenue upfront (not sustainable for the service).
- Your game is shit and the service is desperate for games and will pay you for your shite.
Rykan
Member
There's a bit more to it than that. It comes down to how much the subscription platform is willing to pay to have a 3rd party game on their platform.
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Magic Carpet
Member
Maybe someday in the future after all the GamePass haters have paid full price. Perhaps it will go free on Epic Game Store.
Drizzlehell
Banned
Based Devolver.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Based on the past (albeit limited) data we have, these subscription services usually cover 25% to 30% of development costs for non-D&D releases.
If a game is expected to sell well, the publisher will easily cover that cost just by pre-orders and day-one sales. It'd make more sense to put it on a subscription service after sales have died down.
But if there are extremely low sales forecasts to begin with, then there is no period to wait out.
Rhazkul
Member
Good. GamePass and other subscription based services hurt the industry, games, devs, publishers and even the players. Just check how much damage Spotify has caused to music and artists. No one values the music anymore. Artists get paid a laughable amount on Streaming platforms. Back to ownership and less middlemen snatching up the profits.
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GHG
Member
So anyone who buys games now is a "gamepass hater"?
Is this the next revolutionary talking point about to be bestowed upon us by the evangelists?
Rhazkul
Member
F*** subscriptions. That stuff is cancer. EVERYTHING is almost entirely sub based these days. Wanna play some classics on the Switch? Sub to Nintendo Online. Wanna play online on your PS5? Gotta sub. Wanna listen to music on the go? Sub to spotify Premium. Want to watch some movies? Sub to Prime, Netflix, and the million other streaming services. Want to update your digital audio workstation, photoshop, Word or Excel? Gotta sub for a year to get those sweet updates....
Who got that kind of money to sub to dozen different services?
I am sick of this rental based economy. Sorry for the rant...
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
RickMasters
Member
Maaaan…. And don’t get me started on those 700 dollar a year pro tools subs. …. 300 to update waves plug ins….. 300 for plug in alliance subscription ( that one is totally worth it tho, it pretty much pays for itself)
I’m just glad gaming subs are below 20 bucks a month . But we are getting there. I feel sorry for owners of multiple consoles with multiple subs.
Rhazkul
Member
If you sub monthly you are paying way more than if you sub yearly. It's manipulative and disgusting. They want you to sub yearly.
Mibu no ookami
Member
That's really unsustainable though. Here they aren't going to be able to make their own storefronts, so even in order to get on the platform you're going to have to give a large percentage of your revenue to the platform holder and in this case they aren't paying you directly for the content. So you have to charge high enough to get your historic revenue back... and that will cause people to not keep your subscription. How much content do they have? How long does it take to get through it all? How do they keep up with content?
RickMasters
Member
I don’t think subs are inherently bad. Just going back to the audio workstation example…. These plug ins costs hundreds and buy the time you buy 10 you’ve spent thousands. You can just subscribe for 300….. your average public studio probably makes 500 or more in a day, depending on location, tech level, reputation and expertise. So it pays for itself.
With consumer media it’s a bit different but I’ll put this out there…… there has always been game and movie rentals. Anybody born before 2000 knows that. Maybe the problem people have is the fact that it’s all digital store fronts now. You don’t rent from blockbuster anymore…. You subscribe online. There really is little difference. As long as the option remains to always sell/ buy the game to own.
I always owned games but rented others from blockbuster. Not much is different now. Back then I would rent three games in a weekend and it would still cost more than a gamepass monthly sub with hundreds of games just a few button clicks away. Times have changed. But not that much!
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Good. Every dev with balls and sense should do the same.
RickMasters
Member
Yeah just a shame they don’t offer a yearly sub for GPU.
I have yearly subs for my audio production plug ins, and I used to buy Xbox live annually. Wouldn’t mind the one year payment and done, but they don’t offer that anymore. Never did with GPU, aside from the old gold to GPU conversion. I had my first two year GPU like that via conversion.
RickMasters
Member
It’s a similar state of affair for musicians hence why they just sell their music on iTunes and Spotify. It’s hard to compete with larger store fronts selling products that are being made more visable and those large products are at the same time bringing attention to that store front. Some similar parallels between big and small there, that I can relate too. It’s tough. That’s all I can say,man.
Mibu no ookami
Member
All I'm saying is creating their own subscription service isn't an answer. At best, they'd need to create a collaboration with other indies and do some level of profit sharing, but that is fraught with concerns of its own. Maybe you could get around that by basing the profit around playtime... I don't know.
No. They were fine with putting their games on sub services. They just wanted more money.
Tsaki
Member
Well yeah at the end of the day everything can be converted to a sum of cash. If they got an offer of $1 billion for a game, they would have accepted it. What they are saying here is that every offer they got/realistically could get was not enough for the middle-to-long term damage to the sales potential of the games. Who knows? Maybe the games will turn out to be trash and getting the cash up front would have been better, with the sub service now getting the short end of the stick. I guess we'll have to wait if the games turn out good.
RickMasters
Member
Good and fair points. Especially with regards to the store fronts. Much like musicians I think they are gonna have to come to the table and work out with MS, Sony and Nintendo GOW the splits work per sale. But right now theyballl seem happy with 70 bucks for a game. That’s not a MS thing… that’s an industry thing.
But one things for sure. Digital store fronts are here to stay. What needs to happen is manufactur and developers alike need to work out the costs to the consumers. And maybe have sales more often? I just bought like a dragon premium edition for 20 bucks on xbox live store. So maybe more if that? We are already at 70 dollar games…. But I can’t complain, I was one of those people buying Japanese import snes and Saturn games in the 90s for considerably more. I remember buying street fighter 2 in snes for my import famo I’m back in early 1992 for 140 quid. I could have bought three U.K. snea games for that. I remember paying 120 quid for importted xmen vs street fighter with the RAM cart….. 100 quid for Japanese super Mario 64 before any of my friends could even buy an N64 off hmv shelves. It’s not new to me. What is new is the subs.
As for how much content do they have….. we’ll MS have well over 30 studios at this point so give it a few years and a steady release cadence and maybe it will start to make sense, what they are doing. We all know AAA games costs hundred la of mills these days to make. And they don’t happen over night or inna period of 12 months. But for sure at some point…. With all those studios there will start to be a regular release schedule of big and small games from MS. They have alll their prices lined up nicely to pull it off. Whether they can pull this off without shooting themselves inbthe foot is another question altogether.
MS have all the advantages but they are still not really flexing they they should…. 30 plus studios…… and they will probably acquire more. I’m not worried about them running out of things to put on the service. The real concern is whether they can reach enough subscribers to make the numbers all even out.
RickMasters
Member
Well…. They are gonna have to do something! Just focusing on these indies for a moment….. remember it would have been far harder for any of them to get any prescience in physical retail stores where EA and UBI and ABK pretty much owned the store space and the cost of putting games on discs and printing up boxes and shipping them made it impossible for them to even get to store. Digital removes that obstacle and the hold that majors had over gamestores in much the same way record labels owned marketing space in the old big chain record stores ( which are all dead just like video game stores will soon be too) even the staff get told to push the big AAA games over offerings from smaller devs.
Things can and will be different. The field is a bit more level for smaller devs and pubs because of the digital store front.
It can go both ways I guess. But I don’t believe any indie could say they liked the way things used to be run because how it was before, it pushed them and their games to the side.