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Europe Monthly Charts - October 2023: PS5 is up 143% yoy in October , Switch is 20% down yoy while Xbox is down 52% yoy

JohnnyFootball

GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
I wanted Gamepass to fail, but now I feel bad about that. I’m not too surprised these numbers are as bad as they are, but Starfield did nothing.

Day 1 AAA on Gamepass was a mistake.
 
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Ronin_7

Member
You've conflated revenue with profit. Any exclusivity rendered from the ABK deal outside of CoD will almost certainly see the same results as games like Starfield and Forza. These games don't drive system sales and are simply boxed in from outside sales. Operating costs exceed revenues, which means you're taking a loss.

Microsoft one way or another is going to diminish in the console space. That doesn't mean there will be a monopoly though. Nintendo could very well step back in compete garnering a great deal of Xbox fans. I wouldn't be surprised to see Nintendo buy Sega in that scenario to bolster their 1P production.
Bethesda games don't move, or at least aren't moving Consoles.

We're talking about Europe, Call of Duty is nothing here compared to EA FC or Fortnite.

So Bethesda & Activision are worthless to push Hardware in both Europe & ASIA AND honestly to be honest, current Bethesda uselessness applies Worldwide.
 
You've conflated revenue with profit. Any exclusivity rendered from the ABK deal outside of CoD will almost certainly see the same results as games like Starfield and Forza. These games don't drive system sales and are simply boxed in from outside sales. Operating costs exceed revenues, which means you're taking a loss.

How can they expect games to drive system sales when they told the world that you don't need their systems to play those games?

Actually you don't even need to buy those games : you can just rent them through Gamepass.....
 
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NeoIkaruGAF

Gold Member
I really wonder at gaming communities’ reaction at such news. Every damn time.

The average European gamer won’t buy two very similar consoles, especially at the price of the current hardware.
And since PlayStation has been the dominant brand for almost 30 years at this point, to see people still consider its absolute dominance surprising in any way at this point is baffling.

Xbox got a foothold in Europe in the early 360 era because of 1) price, 2) technical parity, if not outright advantage for some games, 3) online communities had not cemented yet. It was the cool place to play for a while but, as soon as the PS3 became more affordable, it regained all lost ground. The brand is that strong.

Now PS5 is more widely available and has all the IPs PlayStation always had, plus people have more money to spend on average after the initial impact of the COVID crisis. Imagine PlayStation taking off in such a conjuncture. Unbelievable!

It’s quite funny to see people considering this the end of Xbox in Europe. Xbox was doomed in Europe when people stormed Mediaworld stores to get PS4s ten years ago, not today. Put a PS on shelves at the same (or lower) price than the competition and people in Europe will go out and buy it. It’s that simple. No, Series S doesn’t really invalidate my point. People here want a PlayStation and will wait until they can get one. End of story.
 

StereoVsn

Member
Will be interesting to see Xbox sales for November in the UK. Microsoft have some good discounts going on. The Series X was available today for £329 and Series S £190 with Game Pass.

I have still not made the upgrade this Gen, still rocking a PS4 Pro and Xbox One X. Tempting to get a Series X during the sale this month and wait till next year to pick up PS5 Pro.
That would be a smart move. Trade in One X, get XSX on the “cheap “ and get PS5 Pro next year with bunch of cheap games or included on PS+ Extra.
 

NickFire

Member
I still find it hard to believe that Xbox is not capitalising on the raw power. They should be pushing superior fps etc on multi platform games. They got blown away the last three generations on power - this time they got it right with the X and they are still stuffed. I guess the S muddies things up.
For multiplatform console games it does not make financial sense to focus much on the power of Series X as it is just a pro model of the lead console with the lowest install base.
 

Flutta

Banned
F7ByL2_bkAAxfYB.jpg

Because Phil touches a PS5 plate, PlayStation is part of Xbox now. Sony has no choice but to bend the knee.
 
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Ar¢tos

Member
They're almost certainly still selling units for a loss. You have the ask yourself if it is worth taking a bigger loss on hardware units.

Let's say they're losing 50 dollars on the XSS and 35 dollars on the XSX. You drop those an extra 50 dollars... now you're losing 100 dollars per unit and 85 dollars per unit... now you aren't getting that back on software because your consumer base isn't buying games. Even with them buying 3rd party games, you only get 30% of the royalties. So that's 21 dollars per game. Just to break even on the XSS they need someone to buy 5 3rd party games. That's actually pretty significant (and that's assuming they buy them all at full price).

Then you have the problem that you're selling the system at a discounted price to those who would have bought it at the regular price. So you're taking a net loss there on top of the people you're selling in addition to probably being the least motivated to do things like GamePass or buy a ton of full price games. They might be someone who just wants to play a handful of Microsoft games at discounted prices, like used physical games and such.
They can always ditch hardware completely and stop losing money there.
Become a 3rd party publisher, keep growing through Acquisitions (since studio incubation is an alien concept for them) and push gamepass to more TV manufacturers (while keeping gamepass PC).
 

Luigi Mario

Member
Also, how the hell is Xbox down -52% YoY when last year was supposed to have shortages of supply? Such bullshit from MS. Remember all those claims from MS fans that the Series X was sold out and the main reason why sales were low? LOL
It is pretty interesting how the “Xbox Series consoles are still supply-constrained” narrative slowly disappeared over the last few months, especially on social media and forums like ResetEra.
Make of that what you will.
 
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Daneel Elijah

Gold Member
Maybe Microsoft can benefit from a stronger Sony. Basically to be in a situation where they recognise their mistakes and try to fix them. It seems the issue they have is they don't admit the issues they have. Always spinning everything in a positive light and never talking about their issues is where the problem is.
It depends on what the issue is. Did Microsoft really harmed Xbox in the first few years of the Xbox One era, causing irremediable damage? Was it true that gamepass was a last effort to prevent Xbox from dying? Or did Xbox just made a few bad moves like going Day one PC, then Gamepass, then 2 consoles and each of those decisions made the problem worse? For me they are too focused on the US market, and did not try to compete enough in the rest of the world. Instead of going for the cheaper option with the S I would have prefered for them to have a better Series X. This and more games of course. Not just exclusivity bud publishing deals like Sony did for games like Sifu and Stray. For me Xbox can "learn from a strong Sony". But Microsoft can't, as they have different needs and ressources. If Nintendo and Sony were not protected they would have tried to buy one of them (and they did ask for Nintendo). How can you learn from a company that would cost you less than a year of profit?
 
I'm not really sure what Xbox can do in the short or medium term to turn things around.

The much hyped potential game of the generation didn't move the needle and dropped out of the charts quicker than any of us would have predicted, so games like HellBlade and Avowed won't move the needle either.

Sony put the price of their console and their subscription up and are still hitting amazing numbers. Each PS5 sold is a gamer much less likely to buy into Xbox and Gamepass. That'll stunt growth of the sub platform.

And all this while PS5 is having a slow internal software slate. Now would be the time to capitalise. That ten year COD deal for PlayStation has to sting, plus the cloud deal for Ubisoft gives Sony ten years to get their ducks in a row.
 

MrA

Member
In that case they'll destroy all their goodwill with the Xbox faithful and still be competing with the PS5 Pro. It's a no win situation for MS.
MS really is between a rock and a hard place, they really needed to get their games pipeline in order 5 years ago
 

Edmund

Member
Guys. All of you are wrong. Remember Phil saying PlayStation and Nintendo gamers are part of the Xbox community?

That means if my maths is right, Xbox grew by
+143% - 20% - 52% = 71%!!!

Xbox grew by a staggering 71 percent!!!!!!
Learn to math, guys!!!!



 
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DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
Maybe Microsoft can benefit from a stronger Sony. Basically to be in a situation where they recognise their mistakes and try to fix them. It seems the issue they have is they don't admit the issues they have. Always spinning everything in a positive light and never talking about their issues is where the problem is.

A stronger Sony would be like an nvidia vs amd scenario which wouldn't ne great for any of us. How could Sony get stronger vs ms. Its already like 75 to 25 or 80 vs 20 or something lol.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
Because that raw power hardly matters against the PS5 (a system with its own advantages). Sure, they can do it themselves, but then for what? The Series S wouldn't see those pluses and since they treat it as the main current gen platform, it's extra work for little to no gain.
This is what some keep overlooking.

Damn near across the board the PS4 had the power advantage. Its enough trade offs between the PS5 and XSX its a wash. 'its the closest 2 consoles have ever been'

MS had to go so much above for the One X vs PS4 Pro...and whether price or late in the gen or brand...it didnt matter.
 
They can always ditch hardware completely and stop losing money there.
Become a 3rd party publisher, keep growing through Acquisitions (since studio incubation is an alien concept for them) and push gamepass to more TV manufacturers (while keeping gamepass PC).

There becomes a time as a 3rd party publisher that you start competing against yourself with game releases. Acquisitions aren't necessarily the answer for real growth.

GamePass will crater without Xbox hardware and getting adoption of just xCloud through GamePass (especially without the Xbox hardware consumerbase) will be very hard.

There isn't a single 3rd party publisher on the market that can manage a GamePass-like experience and that included ABK.
 

ulantan

Member
A stronger Sony would be like an nvidia vs amd scenario which wouldn't ne great for any of us. How could Sony get stronger vs ms. Its already like 75 to 25 or 80 vs 20 or something lol.
I always thought it interesting that an argument for "competition" would be that a stronger Microsoft would force sony to become better, but sony competing with Microsoft won't help xbox get better.
 
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DenchDeckard

Moderated wildly
PlayStation was fucking strong during the ps2 era when it obliterated all competition.
That was 3 generations ago lol. It's completely different nowadays. You'd be paying ridiculous yearly subscriptions. Half assed hardware. 100 dollar games. Remakes every other year. Same for if anyone had 100 percent market share. They would all do it. MS too.

You need competition and decent healthy competition.
 

skit_data

Member
Console gaming would be dead.
If these numbers are an indication of anything its that Europes console market seems to be doing pretty damn well without Xbox.

Of course on a larger scale it would be bad but I wouldn't say it would be dead by any means.
 
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That was 3 generations ago lol. It's completely different nowadays. You'd be paying ridiculous yearly subscriptions. Half assed hardware. 100 dollar games. Remakes every other year. Same for if anyone had 100 percent market share. They would all do it. MS too.

You need competition and decent healthy competition.

Xbox is not competition....

Doesn't matter if they go third-party or not, nobody cares about the brand
 
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I wanted Gamepass to fail, but now I feel bad about that. I’m not too surprised these numbers are as bad as they are, but Starfield did nothing.

Day 1 AAA on Gamepass was a mistake.

GamePass was never going to work.

The entertainment industry has already seen the destructive nature of streaming services. Gaming is separate from TV/movies, but they still saw it.

The pie shrunk. To keep margins up, Microsoft and Sony are offering less money to games showing up on the sub-services. This will make them less and less appealing. That hurts both companies, but Microsoft made it a focal point of their business and growth model.

I think it works as largely a catalog subscription service, but it still needed to be priced appropriately. 10-15 dollars is simply too cheap and that is why Sony went with a tiered approach with PS+ premium already being as high as 18 dollars. I still think their obvious answer is to bundle Crunchyroll in there (that's actually a value add), but that's neither here nor there.

We'll see if Microsoft budges on Day 1 AAA on GamePass and Day 1 AAA on PC. It's going to be an interesting 12 months.
 
Yea, Xbox is pretty much dead in Europe now.


Geezus, Starfield is tracking behind FH5 and sales are down 52%. MS should just pack up and forget this gen, it's over.


Start making plans for what they will do next gen because they can't come out with another console because it will even be worse next gen.
 
Wow Sony still going stronger than ever, Nintendo holding on strong for 7 years and Microsoft I just don't know, over 50 percent drop from last year is a huge concern.
I really think they will go third party at some point.
 
Yea, Xbox is pretty much dead in Europe now.


Geezus, Starfield is tracking behind FH5 and sales are down 52%. MS should just pack up and forget this gen, it's over.


Start making plans for what they will do next gen because they can't come out with another console because it will even be worse next gen.

How they perform in this generation and how they close this generation out will have a large impact on next generation. So when you say they should forget this generation, what does that mean exactly?
 

skit_data

Member
Start making plans for what they will do next gen because they can't come out with another console because it will even be worse next gen.
The smartest thing IMO would be to create some kind of hybrid console/PC. A standardized set of hardware that can be used for gaming but also for Windows OS. Have the user boot into either the leaner specialized console OS or the regular Windows PC OS on startup and give it mouse and keyboard support on both.

I'd buy that day 1.
 
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Wow Sony still going stronger than ever, Nintendo holding on strong for 7 years and Microsoft I just don't know, over 50 percent drop from last year is a huge concern.
I really think they will go third party at some point.

They should have made things work out with Bungie where they did 1 for them and 1 for Microsoft or something. They also should have bought Epic Games early.

All of their top franchises have been poorly handled.

Even the studio that is doing Fable now looks like it might be due for layoffs after the performance of Forza Motorsports.
 
Holy shit :(

IMO, this was the final straw



Saying that shit was absolutely pathetic and misguided. I get what he was saying but saying that nothing is going to turn it around I think took a lot out of XBOX and it's overall reputation. Buying publishers like they have with Bethesda/Acti is not the way to turn things around. I feel like a few nails remain to close the casket so please turn things around, competition is needed!
 
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The smartest thing IMO would be to create some kind of hybrid console/PC. A standardized set of hardware that can be used for gaming but also for Windows OS. Have it boot into either the leaner specialized console OS or the regular Windows PC OS on startup and give it mouse and keyboard support on both.

I'd buy that day 1.

LOL, you can already do this now. You can just dual boot SteamOS on a computer. Not sure how this is selling point for some custom hardware and not sure how eschewing royalties would benefit them.
 

Ar¢tos

Member
There becomes a time as a 3rd party publisher that you start competing against yourself with game releases. Acquisitions aren't necessarily the answer for real growth.

GamePass will crater without Xbox hardware and getting adoption of just xCloud through GamePass (especially without the Xbox hardware consumerbase) will be very hard.

There isn't a single 3rd party publisher on the market that can manage a GamePass-like experience and that included ABK.
But how can shareholders approve millions for hardware R&D and manufacturing for next gen, to be sold at loss, when hardware sales are plummeting?
 
PlayStation was fucking strong during the ps2 era when it obliterated all competition.
3rd parties would tell you that Sony raked them over the coals during the PS1 and PS2 eras, which is one reason why you saw a push to diversify outside of the PS2 (though that failed).

I think Nintendo really needs to look at their options as they could make a serious comeback in AAA gaming if they played their cards right.

But how can shareholders approve millions for hardware R&D and manufacturing for next gen, to be sold at loss, when hardware sales are plummeting?

I don't think they can. Something interesting is going to happen with Microsoft in the next 18-24 months. They can't hide these poor results much longer and they're going to have to make some major strategic decisions moving forward.

It can't be understated what a poor year MGS has had in 2023 and the fact that 2024 looks significantly worse should be sounding alarm bells across the industry.
 
A stronger Sony would be like an nvidia vs amd scenario which wouldn't ne great for any of us. How could Sony get stronger vs ms. Its already like 75 to 25 or 80 vs 20 or something lol.

I mean that if Microsoft sees Sony as a strong competitor they would be more willing to recognise their flaws. And then make changes to address a strong competitor. I guess Microsoft doesn't really see Sony as being strong competition which is why they are going down this path.
 
GamePass was never going to work.

The entertainment industry has already seen the destructive nature of streaming services. Gaming is separate from TV/movies, but they still saw it.

The pie shrunk. To keep margins up, Microsoft and Sony are offering less money to games showing up on the sub-services. This will make them less and less appealing. That hurts both companies, but Microsoft made it a focal point of their business and growth model.

I think it works as largely a catalog subscription service, but it still needed to be priced appropriately. 10-15 dollars is simply too cheap and that is why Sony went with a tiered approach with PS+ premium already being as high as 18 dollars. I still think their obvious answer is to bundle Crunchyroll in there (that's actually a value add), but that's neither here nor there.

We'll see if Microsoft budges on Day 1 AAA on GamePass and Day 1 AAA on PC. It's going to be an interesting 12 months.

We know internal discussions about scrapping the day one element happened due to some of the emails we saw.
 

Forth

Neophyte
At this point I've absolutely no idea how Microsoft can turn this around, I honestly don't think I've ever seen it this bad for them.
Just think how much more money they would have made having Starfield and HiFi Ruch on PS5?
 

skit_data

Member
LOL, you can already do this now. You can just dual boot SteamOS on a computer. Not sure how this is selling point for some custom hardware and not sure how eschewing royalties would benefit them.
Yes, with SteamOS but not with whatever version of Windows the Series console uses.
I liked the idea of the Steam machines for example, but Valve didn't have the economic grunt back then to make it work on a larger scale. Microsoft does, they are already subsidizing their consoles by a certain amount.

You're probably right about the royalties though, but what if for example the console OS is left as is (locked to Xbox storefront) while the "regular Windows OS" is open? You could make an argument for the console storefront would be more attractive due to effeciancy gains from using a OS adapted for gaming. I have no idea about the whole juridical and economic aspects about it being viable though.

Think Steam deck, but desk top computer only using Windows console OS (and possibility to boot into "work station mode"). I could see that being a USP for a Microsoft device given the price being right.
 
We know internal discussions about scrapping the day one element happened due to some of the emails we saw.

Exactly, but the question is how do you pivot without further damaging the brand.

I think they have to pick one.

Day 1 on GamePass or Day 1 on PC, you can't have both.

The problem is let's say you don't do Day 1 on PC, that means you aren't doing Day 1 on GamePass on PC, which craters GamePass on PC, which craters GamePass.

The smart thing would be to give up their ambitions of both GamePass and PC and focus entirely on recreating the Xbox brand, but their investment into ABK makes that especially difficult.

The only logical thing to do would be to go 3rd party and trim operating costs as much as you can across the business.
 

Flutta

Banned
Yea, Xbox is pretty much dead in Europe now.


Geezus, Starfield is tracking behind FH5 and sales are down 52%. MS should just pack up and forget this gen, it's over.


Start making plans for what they will do next gen because they can't come out with another console because it will even be worse next gen.
MS might aswell start next-gen already have 3 years head start….. i mean why not they have the money to burn right, RIGHT!

DO IT Phily boy i dare you 🤣🤣
 

PeteBull

Member
I wanted Gamepass to fail, but now I feel bad about that. I’m not too surprised these numbers are as bad as they are, but Starfield did nothing.

Day 1 AAA on Gamepass was a mistake.
Starfield had to be BG3 lvl of masterpiece to make a dent, and even then most eurobros would simply buy it on stronger platform, a pc, since xbox series x feels like s if u got a choice to get beefy pc instead ;P
 
I'm not really sure what Xbox can do in the short or medium term to turn things around.

The much hyped potential game of the generation didn't move the needle and dropped out of the charts quicker than any of us would have predicted, so games like HellBlade and Avowed won't move the needle either.

Sony put the price of their console and their subscription up and are still hitting amazing numbers. Each PS5 sold is a gamer much less likely to buy into Xbox and Gamepass. That'll stunt growth of the sub platform.

And all this while PS5 is having a slow internal software slate. Now would be the time to capitalise. That ten year COD deal for PlayStation has to sting, plus the cloud deal for Ubisoft gives Sony ten years to get their ducks in a row.
Yep Hellblade won't sell consoles just as Ico didn't sell consoles.
 
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