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Honestly, if Diablo IV will turn out to be a success, then we only have ourselves to blame for the state of the industry

Looking over an article, I mean... it's nothing. A battle pass with nothing pay to win included, and the only gameplay affecting items are boosters that are on the free tier. Store has cosmetic items, nothing affecting gameplay. You can earn the money you spend on a battle pass back, like any other game with a battle pass. Seems like typical internet overreacting and pearl clutching.
 

OmegaSupreme

advanced basic bitch
The problem I have at the moment is that none of the reviewers/youtubers I trust have reviewed this yet (which is odd in itself). I didn't play the beta either so would be flying blind. Just going to wait a few weeks and see what the consensus is once lots of people have had a decent amount of time with the final game.
Sure. Have you ever tried mortismal gaming? He's one of my favorite guys for this type of game. He specializes in arpgs,trpgs,crpgs etc. He 100 percents them. I look forward to his review.
 
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Mercador

Member
First reply nails it, like almost always. I don't plan to purchase any cosmetics in Diablo, I never did in any game. But there's some gamers that are willing to pay extra for virtual stuff, I don't care. If the game becomes a pay2win, then I'll take my pitchfork. I'm a bit salty about Overwatch 1 but considering how much hours I put in it, I got my fair share of fun for the price of admission.
 
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Drizzlehell

Banned
I'm also not a dumbass
200.gif


A thoughtful response unlike op.
No, you're just being lazy and expect people to give you everything on a platter, not to mention willfully ignorant to the problem that Activision Blizzard is about as trustworthy in their promises as a politician during an election season.

Want some examples? Okay:
  1. The entire Warcraft 3 Reforged release. Missing features, downgraded cutscenes and graphics compared to what was announced, technical issues, and so on.
  2. Overwatch 2's promised PvE mode getting shit-canned despite Blizzard making solemn promises to include it - and this happened like 2 weeks ago.
  3. Activision telling everyone that Call of Duty doesn't have pay-to-win microtransactions and stating that those are fairly balanced, when it's been proven that it's bullshit (keep in mind that Diablo 4 will employ a very similar monetization model to CoD).
  4. World of Warcraft consistently failing to innovate despite the publisher's promises to do so.
  5. The initial Destiny 2's release that came with a promise of regular post-launch updates that was left pretty much unfulfilled because Activision was pushing Bungie to make another sequel, until they got the hell out of there and finally started to deliver on what was promised - without Activision.
  6. Diablo Immortal, while technically not making any promises, even those who expected this game to have aggressive monetization were taken by surprise by the sheer level of avarice on display after it released.
Now you tell me, how trustworthy do you think they are when saying that Diablo 4 will remain a fairly balanced experience that will not be hampered by its plans for monetization? If you're still gonna tell me that you completely trust them to keep their word then sorry, but you are most definitely a dumbass.
 
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Laieon

Member
Seems a bit naive to think that it's gonna be any different from Immortal, except with a paid entry fee.

Hot take:
Immortal was pretty fun for a play through. I enjoyed leveling to max level, didn't put any money into it, and was surprised at how good a mobile Diablo game felt.

World of Warcraft consistently failing to innovate despite the publisher's promises to do so

Dragonflight has been an absolute blast. Innovative? No. Fun? Hell yeah.


The only Blizzard games in the past 15 or so years I've put less than 100-200 hours into (by far more than I put into anything else) was Starcraft II and Warcraft III, and that's largely because I'm not that big of a fan of that style of RTS. I always preferred the way Ensemble made them. Even at its worst, Blizzard knows how to make fun games.
 
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ZehDon

Gold Member
I think it's relevant because it's a GaaS game that the majority of users seem very excited about, while in most other cases such a business model is universally reviled and games that use it harshly criticized. It seems a bit hypocritical.
Not really, you're just failing to apply any kind of nuance to the topic. "GaaS = bad" isn't the general complaint. "Bad GaaS = bad" is the complaint. It just so happens most GaaS titles are pretty bad, because publishers use GaaS as a way to launch early access titles that, if they don't immediately explode into popularity, they wholesale abandon. So, gamers have come to equate "GaaS = broken, unfinished, poorly made game". With Diablo IV, we've had multiple extensive betas, the most transparent development process for any Blizzard title, and more than enough time to evaluate. That Blizzard intends to support it with major content via GaaS is neither here nor there: based on the multiple betas, Diablo IV is a very high-quality game worth paying for. If it turns out to be a terrible GaaS? That won't subtract from the core campaign and leveling experience that we already know is pretty good. Hence the excitement: we've played it, and Blizzard didn't fuck it up. That you're the highest poster in this thread, trying to convince everyone who's already played the game and already know it's worth paying for should be ringing alarm bells for you.
I get this point but I don't think it should be used as an excuse. It's a 70 dollar game that employs freemium model. It's exactly the kind of thing that should be harshly criticized and not hand-waved.
Sure, if that's your beef. The question is: why this game in particular? What is it about Diablo IV that specifically warrants its own thread and you specifically calling this one game out right here and now?
 
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Drizzlehell

Banned
Not really, you're just failing to apply any kind of nuance to the topic. "GaaS = bad" isn't the general complaint. "Bad GaaS = bad" is the complaint. It just so happens most GaaS titles are pretty bad, because publishers use GaaS as a way to launch early access titles that, if they don't immediately explode into popularity, they wholesale abandon. So, gamers have come to equate "GaaS = broken, unfinished, poorly made game". With Diablo IV, we've had multiple extensive betas, the most transparent development process for any Blizzard title, and more than enough time to evaluate. That Blizzard intends to support it with major content via GaaS is neither here nor there: based on the multiple betas, Diablo IV is a very high-quality game worth paying for. If it turns out to be a terrible GaaS? That won't subtract from the core campaign and leveling experience that we already know is pretty good. Hence the excitement: we've played it, and Blizzard didn't fuck it up. That you're the highest poster in this thread, trying to convince everyone who's already played the game and already know it's worth paying for should be ringing alarm bells for you.

Sure, if that's your beef. The question is: why this game in particular? What is it about Diablo IV that specifically warrants its own thread and you specifically calling this one game out right here and now?
If the recent playstation showcase is anything to go by, the majority of posters around here share a clear dislike towards these types of games at best, and absolutely shit on them at worst. I'm just speaking about what I saw happening in various threads that touched upon GaaS games.

With Diablo IV, on the other hand, it was mostly enthusiasm and anticipation so far, combined with consistent excuses for the monetization model that Blizzard has adapted for this game. So yeah, to repeat my previous answer to your repeat question - hypocrisy.
 
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Ozriel

M$FT
I get this point but I don't think it should be used as an excuse. It's a 70 dollar game that employs freemium model. It's exactly the kind of thing that should be harshly criticized and not hand-waved.

Why should it be criticized if the $70 you pay gets you a full featured game with tons of replay value?

Why? D4 looks like a well made game and polished for launch. I dont care about BP or cosmetics, i just dont buy them. Its that fucking simple

It really is that simple.
 
You only have to pay if you want cosmetics, big deal.

As for early access, I dont have the kids this weekend so for sure I paid the extra so I can sit back and play this. That cost me less than ordering a fucking pizza, boohoo
 
I kinda agree, the same goes for bad launches (like Cyberpunk).
That kinda sucked though, because cdpr was a ambitious xev that wasnt doing any DRM, GAAS, monetization schemes. And they try to push things forward with tech and prsentation and write all their quests and so on instead of procedural generation.

I personally thought it was a bad idea to go at CDPR harder than any other dev for releasing what was and still is
..an excellent, ambitious, risky game.

You basically made ubisoft and bethesda etc grin and ensured they will be taking no risks. Just sucks yall did that to CDPR of all devs
 

Minsc

Gold Member
Once you realize if you enjoy a game it's best to only care about what people say in its OT everything is much better, the people who dislike it generally will stay out, especially in larger games where they'd be outnumbered and last page's news in hours or less. You get threads like this time and again, because the game isn't what some people want, but hey, not everything is made for everybody and that's ok.

Again, if you like the game and discuss it in the OT, the discourse will be pleasant. In threads about issues people have with the game like this, you're going to find yourself up against a wall trying to win arguments imo.
 
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Bond007

Member
We are always to blame for accepting these practices. I remember being apalled xbox live had a fee. Sony was free
But i knew everyones acceptance of the fee would bite us in the ass. Now look


Tons of examples. From services, to DLC, to collectors editions. We eat this stuff up and complain later
 
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bender

What time is it?
Exactly. I'm going to be playing this game for a long time, I want continuing content.

Maybe my expectations are out of whack and I don't mind reasonable monetization in games. $28 bucks for a single characters skin seems pretty damned far from reasonable. I think it is safe to guess that whales could sink tens of thousands of dollars, if not more, into cosmetics. That feels more like exploitative than it does needing to fund development of additional content. And yes, you can ignore the battle passes and cosmetic shops, but I'm sure offers will greet you every time you boot the game.
 
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Minsc

Gold Member
Maybe my expectations are out of whack, but I don't mind reasonable monetization in games. $28 bucks for a single characters skin seems pretty damned far from reasonable. I think it is safe to guess that whales could sink tens of thousands of dollars, if not more, into cosmetics. That feels more like exploitative than it does needing to fund development of additional content. And yes, you can ignore the battle passes and cosmetic shops, but I'm sure offers will greet you every time you boot the game.

I'll be surprised if there's pop up ads and the sort, like the first time every day you go to the Blacksmith you have to X out five windows of advertisements for clothing or something, I hope that's not the case.

But I do fully expect you to constantly see other players running around in their $30 outfits with their paid cosmetic battle pass weapons and such, to the point you feel like you're maybe missing out. I really don't see myself going for paid cosmetics like that though.

But if they manage to incorporate fun gameplay challenges in to the paid battle pass tiers that results in extra cosmetics, that I'd consider more as of a accomplishment to achieve than actually significantly caring about the prize, as challenging myself to hit the paid tiers is something I could see as fun and worth the little bit of money, if the goals to reach the tiers are enjoyable.
 
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bender

What time is it?
I'll be surprised if there's pop up ads and the sort, like the first time every day you go to the Blacksmith you have to X out five windows of advertisements for clothing or something, I hope that's not the case.

But I do fully expect you to constantly see other players running around in their $30 outfits with their paid cosmetic battle pass weapons and such, to the point you feel like you're maybe missing out. I really don't see myself going for paid cosmetics like that though.

But if they manage to incorporate fun gameplay challenges in to the paid battle pass tiers that results in extra cosmetics, that I'd consider more as of a accomplishment to achieve than actually significantly caring about the prize, as challenging myself to hit the paid tiers is something I could see as fun and worth the little bit of money, if the goals to reach the tiers are enjoyable.

Go for the eyes, Boo!

I don't expect it to be obnoxious but I do expect it to be present. And while I'd prefer the traditional release a game and then release an expansion pass model, I don't necessarily hate monetization through battle passes or cosmetic shops. I paid money for Mercy's Cancer Awareness skin in Overwatch and I always supported the Capcom Pro Tour DLC for Street Fighter. But when a single skin Diablo IV is more expensive than that Pro Tour DLC which gave you costumes and a stage, not to mention supported prize money for those Pro Players, it just feels exploitative than a necessity to support ongoing content.

/old robot yelling at clouds
 

Bungie

Member
It seems gameplay length & content wise that it's worth the $70 price point. Especially when compared to a lot of other games at the same price point that isn't a service & was lackluster. The additional "freemium" content wouldn't have been developed if it wasn't for the GaS model I'd assume. So I don't see the issue, more content & coming out quickly is a great service that suits this style of game. I'd only have a complaint if the game felt like it was stripped down to make up for future content they will charge for but again, doesn't seem like the case here.
 
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MMaRsu

Banned
Would you rather have a game be a one and done affair, or would you prefer to have the developers continue to work on it post-release? If you want continued progress, would you prefer it being funded via a subscription model that everyone pays, or a microtransaction model that only some people pay?
This is such bullshit

Devs supported older games for years and they didnt ask 20€ for skins.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
This is such bullshit

Devs supported older games for years and they didnt ask 20€ for skins.
There's a difference between "support" and "adding new content".

They've been doing fine supporting Diablo 3 post-release for years at no extra cost. And I'd rather they release a bigger expansion every once in a while like they did with Reaper of Souls because at least then I know that I'm paying extra for actual product and not some nebulous promise of post-launch aftercare.

Honestly, this is such a good example of how skewed the perception got on these things has gotten. Back in the day you'd expect to get something tangible, like an actual expansion pack in a box, when you paid to expand your gaming experience, but nowadays people are just happy to throw money at nothing just for a vague promise that they will get something later. It really makes me feel like an insane person for having to explain this in the first place.
No extra cost? Diablo 3 launched with the real money auction house. There are also cosmetics that you can purchase with the deluxe edition of Reaper of Souls.

With an actual expansion pack, you're definitely paying for that. With periodic DLC funded by microtransactions, other people are paying for that.
 

mxbison

Member
People defending mtx in full price games, it's so sad.

Do what you want with your money but stop acting like that shit is ok. Yeah it's only cosmetics, so? They are part of the game and it's full price.

Might aswell start playing with wireframe models since everything else is just cosmetic anyway.
 

StueyDuck

Member
For a game like cod or siege or whatever where cosmetics really play no role in the game itself then the whole $60 and a battle pass thing doesn't irritate me.

But when the game is lootbased, even if it is cosmetic, then it's dirty as fuck. The whole point about looters is the loot and that means how it looks as much as what it does.

So to spend all the dollarydoos and not have full access to the game is pretty messed up.

But blizzard is and have been huge cunts for a long while now so I'm not shocked.
 

MMaRsu

Banned
People defending mtx in full price games, it's so sad.

Do what you want with your money but stop acting like that shit is ok. Yeah it's only cosmetics, so? They are part of the game and it's full price.

Might aswell start playing with wireframe models since everything else is just cosmetic anyway.
The poor devs need our support! Blizzard is too indie a company to support their game long term without hassling the users for more money. Dont you get it?
 

ProtoByte

Member
Drizzlehell Drizzlehell 's right, people. You can't be surprised when companies see games like Diablo 4 and worse when it comes to monetization and game design twisted around it, when you give massive time, attention and money to the Diablo 4's of the world.
 

bender

What time is it?
No extra cost? Diablo 3 launched with the real money auction house. There are also cosmetics that you can purchase with the deluxe edition of Reaper of Souls.

With an actual expansion pack, you're definitely paying for that. With periodic DLC funded by microtransactions, other people are paying for that.

Comparing a battle pass and the cosmetic shop to the cosmetics in the D3 Collectors Editions is a weird pull. Yes, they had exclusive content (below) but the came with the base game, content for other Blizzard game, a physical copy of the game, art books, sound tracks, other goodies (mouse pad, themed USB thumbstick with D2/LOD installed).

D3: Call forth glowing angel wings, unfurl an exclusive banner sigil, and dye your armor sets with the Bottled Cloud or Bottled Smoke items.
Reaper of Souls: Spectral Hound minion, Trio of Ageless Helms, Malthael Inspired Weapons

Those would have set you back $99.99 and $79.99. Or $40 over the price of the standard editions.

Diablo 3's launch was a mess and the real money auction house was finally scrapped with Blizzard admitting it undermined the point of the game so this comparison is also confusing. It took them far too long to remedy this.

Blizzard already announced that there will be paid expansions for D4 so they are using every avenue possible to monetize the game. We are going to have to wait to see how the content roadmaps pan out before we can say what good these monetization schemes have done for the game.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Comparing a battle pass and the cosmetic shop to the cosmetics in the D3 Collectors Editions is a weird pull.
How so? From what I see, it appears that the monetization was proportional to how much effort they put into the game post release.
 

Ozriel

M$FT
This is such bullshit

Devs supported older games for years and they didnt ask 20€ for skins.

Relatively smaller and cheaper support. And many of these older games had paid expansion packs.

It’d be a really weird business decision to sell a full featured game, then still commit to years of support with expensive dev time for zero revenue. Especially with how fast games get discounted these days.
 

bender

What time is it?
I'm comparing what happened with D3 to what Blizzard has plans for D4. They've already said that D4's seasons are going to be bigger than D3's.

That's not hard to imagine considering D4 seems to have an endgame built into it unlike D3. Also trusting Blizzard's plans is foolish given their recent track record.
 

Zheph

Member
I am not sure many people here remember the seasons in D3, it was very lackluster to say the least
even the "big" update for the last season wasn't something to brag about
 

bender

What time is it?
Relatively smaller and cheaper support. And many of these older games had paid expansion packs.

It’d be a really weird business decision to sell a full featured game, then still commit to years of support with expensive dev time for zero revenue. Especially with how fast games get discounted these days.

As will this game.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
That's not hard to imagine considering D4 seems to have an endgame built into it unlike D3. Also trusting Blizzard's plans is foolish given their recent track record.
My analysis is purely based on the available information. I'm not claiming that I know the future and that Blizzard will or won't stick to their promises.

The microtransaction-funded model is not inherently bad, but it has a bad reputation because it has been abused so often with predatory practices. Had Blizzard done predatory practices in the past? Yes. Does Diablo 4 currently have any predatory practices? No. Will it have predatory practices in the future? I have no idea, but I hope not. The game as it is now is shaping up to be an acceptable model with net benefits for the customer base. If it goes well, I would hope that Blizzard is rewarded so that they can be incentivized to continue to be better.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
I am not sure many people here remember the seasons in D3, it was very lackluster to say the least
even the "big" update for the last season wasn't something to brag about
Indeed. This is what I was talking about when I talked about proportionality a few comments back.

If I was in charge, I'd set up a modest microtransaction model for D3 that would serve to fund further development (better end game, revamped balance, revamped itemization, QoL improvements, etc) and server infrastructure.
 

MMaRsu

Banned
Relatively smaller and cheaper support. And many of these older games had paid expansion packs.

It’d be a really weird business decision to sell a full featured game, then still commit to years of support with expensive dev time for zero revenue. Especially with how fast games get discounted these days.
Blizzard has millions to spare.
 

bender

What time is it?
The microtransaction-funded model is not inherently bad, but it has a bad reputation because it has been abused so often with predatory practices. Does Diablo 4 currently have any predatory practices? No.

I wonder what gives players the impression of abuse and predatory practices.

Thanks to the images of Diablo IV's in-game store posted to Reddit, fans now have a better idea of what to expect from the game's optional cosmetics. One image shows a set of armor for the Necromancer selling for around 2,800 platinum, Diablo IV's premium currency. Blizzard has previously stated that the game's premium battle pass would sell for around 1,000 platinum, which is the equivalent of roughly $10. That means the cosmetic armor set in the image costs around $28. Another image shows the price of an in-game mount and armor set at 1,600 platinum, or $16.

Fans point out that it's rare that players can buy the exact amount of a premium currency they want, meaning players in Diablo IV will likely need to buy $30 or $20 worth of platinum in order to buy the $28 or $16 cosmetics respectively.


Even if you want to defend the absurd pricing, you can't defend having to spend money to buy currency that let's you buy those cosmetics and is designed so that your balance is never zero.
 
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Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
I wonder what gives players the impression of abuse and predatory practices.

Thanks to the images of Diablo IV's in-game store posted to Reddit, fans now have a better idea of what to expect from the game's optional cosmetics. One image shows a set of armor for the Necromancer selling for around 2,800 platinum, Diablo IV's premium currency. Blizzard has previously stated that the game's premium battle pass would sell for around 1,000 platinum, which is the equivalent of roughly $10. That means the cosmetic armor set in the image costs around $28. Another image shows the price of an in-game mount and armor set at 1,600 platinum, or $16.

Fans point out that it's rare that players can buy the exact amount of a premium currency they want, meaning players in Diablo IV will likely need to buy $30 or $20 worth of platinum in order to buy the $28 or $16 cosmetics respectively.


Even if you want to defend the absurd pricing, you can't defend having to spend money to buy currency that let's you buy those cosmetics and is designed so that your balance is never zero.
Completely optional cosmetics that have nothing to do with gameplay are not predatory.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Then tell me what your definition of predatory is, and what your threshold is that crosses the line between normal and predatory?

Blatant pay to win schemes, loot boxes, and overpriced hidden gambling mechanics are predatory. Optional cosmetics are not. Is your complaint that they cost too much?
 

bender

What time is it?
Then tell me what your definition of predatory is, and what your threshold is that crosses the line between normal and predatory?

Blatant pay to win schemes, loot boxes, and overpriced hidden gambling mechanics are predatory. Optional cosmetics are not. Is your complaint that they cost too much?

Try reading. Having players exchange money to purchase a currency that is need to buy in game content that is designed to not allow your balance hit zero is predatory.
 
I've never bought a cosmetic in a game in my life not about to start

Same here. I honestly do not see that point in wasting money on cosmetic DLC in a game that (a) is loot-drop based; and (b) I will spend 99.9999% of my time playing solo (since I have no interest in online PvP or PvE gaming at all).
 

Ozriel

M$FT
Blizzard has millions to spare.

That’s not how it works, though. Doesn’t make sense to dig into your reserves to support a project. Everyone has to stand on its own.

Overwatch and WoW aren’t at their peaks anymore, so they’ll have to be careful.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Try reading. Having players exchange money to purchase a currency that is need to buy in game content that is designed to not allow your balance hit zero is predatory.
You're moving the goalposts. Please acknowledge/respond to my previous points before moving on to something else. As for the currency demarcations, that already exists in many other online stores. Does that make it less scummy? No. Players should be able to buy as much or as little currency as they want/need. Battle.net does this already, but the same probably can't be said for the D4 shop. Is it dumb? Yes. Predatory? No.
 
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