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Is the Switch another Wii, or will their next console also be as successful or close?

Will the Switch be a temporary success like the Wii?

  • Yes

    Votes: 42 29.0%
  • No

    Votes: 103 71.0%

  • Total voters
    145

Woopah

Member
We have way too much historical evidence against Nintendo on this issue, the problem is western developers don't want to deal with them, and their hardware being much weaker than the home consoles doesn't help fix that. Switch has been around since 2017, why do you think the western hardware support it had earlier decreased so much? Couldn't they want to ride the software sales of a portable hybrid console that recently hit 111 million units sold? Why would you think the Switch 2 is when the support will increase but now NOW when the machine is selling very well?

What will happen with Switch 2, if that is even what it's going to be, is the same as every other Nintendo console, some support early, and then lip service support here and there for the rest of its life. Nintendo has made no effort to change their western support deficiency since the Gamecube, there is no reason to believe that Nintendo doing nothing and just releasing another Switch will improve support on its own given the years of evidence that never worked before.
The answer is that Western support has not decreased since launch. Its got better. Largely driven by the strong software and hardware sales (and in some cases from specific actions that Nintendo took). Which major Western publisher do you think is giving worse support than in 2017?

A big issues for Switch third party support is power. That's why we see Western publishers finishing the Xbox/PlayStation/PC versions first, and then porting down to the Switch. Plus as more and more developers move to PS5/Xbox Series only, Switch versions simply won't be feasible. More power will help address these problems somewhat (although Western third party support for Switch 2 will remain noticeably worse than that for PlayStation and Xbox).
 

Spukc

Gold Member
No. Portable gaming is on a rise right now, actually usable, and not a random fad that lasts for awhile. This usability won't go away, at least not in the near future.

With the Wii, they didn't know what a successor should look like. With the switch 2....all they need is a more powerful switch, with a couple of upgrades and done, people will buy in droves
imagine if they would sell it with a functioning joystick that is useable for shooters :pie_thinking:
 

levyjl1988

Member
I suspect with the success of the Nintendo Switch, Nintendo would make their consoles iterative like smartphones. Performs better, looks visually better, etc.
There is no more room for innovation in gameplay anymore. I guess when the power of the Switch is powerful enough they can attempt to do VR with it in some excelling capacity, but it seems very minute for now.
 

Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
The answer is that Western support has not decreased since launch. Its got better.

It objectively hasn't.

The Switch has had poor major western third party support at retail that got worse since earlier in its life. it's dropped off enough to be not too far from the Wii U's.

It's pointless to expect that to improve out of nowhere on the Switch 2 if Nintendo continues to not bother trying to get them onboard. if anything, they may feel they don't need them unlike the start of the gen given the current sales, outside a few IPS here and there.
 

Woopah

Member
It objectively hasn't.

The Switch has had poor major western third party support at retail that got worse since earlier in its life. it's dropped off enough to be not too far from the Wii U's.

It's pointless to expect that to improve out of nowhere on the Switch 2 if Nintendo continues to not bother trying to get them onboard. if anything, they may feel they don't need them unlike the start of the gen given the current sales, outside a few IPS here and there.
Which Western publisher has given Switch worse support in the last few years than it did in 2017? 2K didn't get worse, Activision didn't get worse, Ubisoft didnt get worse. So which Western support are you talking about?

Nintendo is trying to get Western publishers onboard, hence why they were working closely with Bethesda until MS bought them. For Nintendo to get more support, the best thing they can do to is make it easier for developers to port their games to their next system.
 
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blacktout

Member
The Switch has had poor major western third party support at retail that got worse since earlier in its life. it's dropped off enough to be not too far from the Wii U's.

Please clarify. Every Western third party that supported the Switch at launch has released games for it since, and multiple publishers that were on the sidelines at launch (like Activision/Blizzard and 2K) have gone on to support the console. You can't even be talking about AAA games, because the only third party AAA games that came out in the launch period that weren't ports of games from past generations were Doom and (maybe) Mario and Rabbids and both have sequels on the platform.

Please, I really want to understand *with examples* how support has gotten worse. Name launch games that haven't seen parallels since. Name publishers that bailed. Come on.
 
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Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
Which Western publisher has given Switch worse support in the last few years than it did in 2017?

The lists are publicly available, you can organize by year and literally count the games, it's gotten worse for major western releases, this isn't debatable.

Please clarify. Every Western third party that supported the Switch at launch has released games for it since,

See above, you guys are pretending this information isn't easy to find. A simple scan comparing releases the first few years and then the second half until now has notably less major western releases.

Just because some of the same studios from earlier are still releasing games, that has nothing to do with output. COD released on the Wii for years, means jack.

You can't even be talking about AAA games, because the only third party AAA games that came out in the launch period that weren't ports of games from past generations were Doom and (maybe) Mario and Rabbids and both have sequels on the platform.

Except I am, and i am including the ports, you seem to be trying to lower the numbers artificially to make the later half seem like there were more releases, they aren't. Western sales were dropping, it makes sense why the output would drop.

Shit, there's only 3 western publishers on the best seller list, Devolver Digital, Microsoft, and Forever ENT, and two of those came out in 2017, the best selling being Microsoft, which is of course Minecraft with over 3 million sold. Major western support is poorer whether in A, AA, or AAA.

https://www.nintendolife.com/nintendo-switch/games/browse?sort=date&status=released&page=13

Already got it in release date order for you, cross-reference with the lists on other sites if you think there's something missing but I doubt there's much if any, 2017-2019 had more western support than 2019-now. You can even take the 2nd half of 2019 off and it's still a big gap.

Output is what gets more buyers for games, which may also sell consoles, which means more western support, that's not happening on the Switch, and Nintendo isn't interested in trying. So assuming for NO reason, that Switch 2 will have better support because ... is really reaching for the star on Pluto in reaching.

Now if Nintendo surprises us, and tried like the GC, but harder, and then does more than lip-service to give reason for long term support, it's possible THEN the Switch 2 could have better major western support but given history that's unlikely.

Not to mention that the Switch has sold a bunch without it the last few years until now so the most likely path they will choose is ignore western devs anyway. unless they are small or indie studios throwing greenlight software on the digital shop.
 
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Bragr

Member
When it happened with the Wii it also didn't seem like anything was going to happen, but then out of nowhere came rapid deceleration
I remember people getting frustrated with the Wii, the lack of games was extreme during the last few years, and people got tired of motion controls. The big shock was more how the Wii-U didn't manage to get any of the casual crossovers.
 

Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
I remember people getting frustrated with the Wii, the lack of games was extreme during the last few years, and people got tired of motion controls. The big shock was more how the Wii-U didn't manage to get any of the casual crossovers.

Not really, some reports on that blamed the Kinect and Move, which sold 40 million together when before Xbox One/PS4 released, they took who didn't leave the Wii for the fad it was, which Nintendo did nothing to retain them, and then the Wii U really only appealed to the small group that was left, and whoever felt the Tablet was a game changing gimmick, but it wasn't most of the casuals. Even the BC with the Wii and Wiimotes didn't get their interest.
 

Bragr

Member
Not really, some reports on that blamed the Kinect and Move, which sold 40 million together when before Xbox One/PS4 released, they took who didn't leave the Wii for the fad it was, which Nintendo did nothing to retain them, and then the Wii U really only appealed to the small group that was left, and whoever felt the Tablet was a game changing gimmick, but it wasn't most of the casuals. Even the BC with the Wii and Wiimotes didn't get their interest.
Yeah, but we are talking 13 million units sold of the Wii-U. That was shocking, nobody cared about it. Just being a Nintendo console alone should net twice that number.
 

Woopah

Member
The lists are publicly available, you can organize by year and literally count the games, it's gotten worse for major western releases, this isn't debatable.



See above, you guys are pretending this information isn't easy to find. A simple scan comparing releases the first few years and then the second half until now has notably less major western releases.

Just because some of the same studios from earlier are still releasing games, that has nothing to do with output. COD released on the Wii for years, means jack.



Except I am, and i am including the ports, you seem to be trying to lower the numbers artificially to make the later half seem like there were more releases, they aren't. Western sales were dropping, it makes sense why the output would drop.

Shit, there's only 3 western publishers on the best seller list, Devolver Digital, Microsoft, and Forever ENT, and two of those came out in 2017, the best selling being Microsoft, which is of course Minecraft with over 3 million sold. Major western support is poorer whether in A, AA, or AAA.

https://www.nintendolife.com/nintendo-switch/games/browse?sort=date&status=released&page=13

Already got it in release date order for you, cross-reference with the lists on other sites if you think there's something missing but I doubt there's much if any, 2017-2019 had more western support than 2019-now. You can even take the 2nd half of 2019 off and it's still a big gap.

Output is what gets more buyers for games, which may also sell consoles, which means more western support, that's not happening on the Switch, and Nintendo isn't interested in trying. So assuming for NO reason, that Switch 2 will have better support because ... is really reaching for the star on Pluto in reaching.

Now if Nintendo surprises us, and tried like the GC, but harder, and then does more than lip-service to give reason for long term support, it's possible THEN the Switch 2 could have better major western support but given history that's unlikely.

Not to mention that the Switch has sold a bunch without it the last few years until now so the most likely path they will choose is ignore western devs anyway. unless they are small or indie studios throwing greenlight software on the digital shop.
I know the lists are available, that's why I can see that no major Western publisher has decreased Switch support since launch. They've either kept the same level of support or improved it.

All we want is examples of major Western publishers who have decreased support since launch.

If you can't find any, doesn't that show it isn't true?

The type of games that missed Switch still miss it, the type of games that came to Switch are still coming. There was no "drop off

Nintendo gets a cut of every third party game sold, so they want as many titles as they can get (Eastern and Western). That's why Nintendo actively reaches out to companies like Bethesda, Warner Bros. and Ubisoft to get support.
 
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blacktout

Member
Already got it in release date order for you, cross-reference with the lists on other sites if you think there's something missing but I doubt there's much if any, 2017-2019 had more western support than 2019-now. You can even take the 2nd half of 2019 off and it's still a big gap.

I honestly started to try to do this, even though there is absolutely no good, rational reason why I should, but there's no way in the database to sort by publisher, which is essential, since we're talking about major *western* third party support. Wikipedia lets you sort by publisher, but their list of Switch games is divided across five different pages.

That said, even if you're right, there are three huge issues with this methodology:

1. The global pandemic has impacted the rate of releases across the board since 2020, so having one half of your sample pre-pandemic and one half post-pandemic tells you nothing about third party interest in the platform.

2. Next gen consoles launched in 2020 and the shift to developing next gen titles has both slowed releases across all platforms (see: the endless bitching on almost every thread in this forum) and diminished the number of games released that can feasibly be ported to the Switch.

3. 2018 and 2019 were gold rush years as developers rushed to get games on the platform after discovering that it was going to be successful. A lot of these games were older last gen titles, for obvious reasons. That pool is largely drained now, and since most new releases aren't viable to port, there simply are fewer release options for publishers.

None of these factors are indicative of publishers jumping ship or deciding that the Switch isn't a viable platform. It's just that you've constructed a frame that gives the illusion of meaning, while actually saying nothing and which, ironically, obfuscates facts that are self-evidently true and visible to anyone not trying to warp reality to fit their priors.
 
In fact, when you remove handheld games, or games configured for handheld play from the Switches best seller list and only focus on consoles games, the Wii actually sold more top software than the Switch, even if you cut Wii sports sales in half. You can check the lists out yourself, when you remove those the Wii has 38 games that sold over 2 million compared to 29 for the Switch, and 5 of those are debatable that may drop the Switch down lower but I kept them in. That's less than a console that had it's top 4 games sell over 183 million units which was almost more than all the rest of the Wiis best sellers combined.

Which Switch games are "handheld games" as opposed to "console games"?
 

Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
I know the lists are available, that's why I can see that no major Western publisher has decreased Switch support since launch. They've either kept the same level of support or improved it.

Which isn't what I said, you are clearly grasping trying to spin the fact the western support is dropping. You know exactly what my argument was and you are clearly trying to reframe the discussion it to pretend that support is improved, it's not. That's not even how YOU originally framed your position at the start of this discussion.

That said, even if you're right, there are three huge issues with this methodology:

1. The global pandemic has impacted the rate of releases across the board since 2020, so having one half of your sample pre-pandemic and one half post-pandemic tells you nothing about third party interest in the platform.

2. Next gen consoles launched in 2020 and the shift to developing next gen titles has both slowed releases across all platforms (see: the endless bitching on almost every thread in this forum) and diminished the number of games released that can feasibly be ported to the Switch.

3. 2018 and 2019 were gold rush years as developers rushed to get games on the platform after discovering that it was going to be successful. A lot of these games were older last gen titles, for obvious reasons. That pool is largely drained now, and since most new releases aren't viable to port, there simply are fewer release options for publishers.

None of these factors are indicative of publishers jumping ship or deciding that the Switch isn't a viable platform. It's just that you've constructed a frame that gives the illusion of meaning, while actually saying nothing and which, ironically, obfuscates facts that are self-evidently true and visible to anyone not trying to warp reality to fit their priors.
No you have constructed nonsense to give excuses for believing there isn't a drop, and I mean a big one, compared to 2017-2019.

I've never seen such a strange attempt to pretend the Switch has improving western third party support. It started out strong (for Nintendo consoles) in 2017, it was already dropping rapidly in 2019, a year before any of the new consoles came out, and there shouldn't have been much of an issue to continue to put scaled down ports or new releases on the Switch, if the games were actually selling (They are already scaling down for the Series S) but they clearly were not selling well enough which is why you are seeing an undeniably easy to observe drop in releases at the level of the Wii U, ok maybe not that bad, but it's not good. Lack of interest in developing for the platform also contributes to the issue

The only warping is with you and woopha, who for some reason, believe because the Switch sold 111 million units, that somehow guarantees improved major western support, without Nintendo doing a single thing, despite decades of evidence to the contrary. It's pretty much conspiracy theory as to what you and him are arguing, and it isn't based in reality.

UNLESS Nintendo actually attempts to court them for the Switch 2, which I think is pretty unlikely given historical evidence.

I mean look at the ballet you are doing with these excuses, 2018-2019 were a gold rush? Then why did the releases start collapsing in 2019? I said 2017-2019 had better output than after, I didn't say that it was consistently good across that time frame. But you spun it that way to find a way to dismiss the facts.

Not only are the next gen consoles excuse not relevant to times they weren't even out, or even the first year since there were a ton of last gen and cross gen releases, but there were plenty of western releases in A and AA categories that could have been on Switch too, even some ports of AAA games, despite their longer dev times, they scaled down games and produced ports before, why did the output of those start decaling fast in 2019? Simple questions you aren't asking.

Some of the excuses you both are making are similar excuses that Wii fans were making for the Wii U once that support died up.

The numbers are the only facts, there is no ambiguity. The output and interest dropped, dropped fast, and now you get something here and there once in awhile. Using common sense, if Nintendo continues to do nothing, don't expect Switch 2 to have better western support. Seems pretty simple. Why would I expect an improvement if there isn't any action taken to support improvement?

You are basically arguing that Nintendo will fix it's western support issue by doing nothing, very strange logic. (there also hasn't been an argument presented backing up that theory, only poorly attempting to dismiss mine, which is based on objective output of releases.)

Oh and before i forgot.

but there's no way in the database to sort by publisher,

The publisher is displayed under each game, it's already set in order of release date, all you had to do was count the releases as you went through the pages. You will see the the support climb up pretty high for the time frame I said. Not so much for after.

Now, if you include Indies and small mobilelike studios that aspect of western support may have improved, but Nintendo fans seem to have a poor reception on those shop games and compared it to steam greenlight. Those aren't going to move many consoles or sell that much software regardless.
 
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Marvel14

Member
Nintendo created a portable hybrid to unify their development teams, fix the market decline initiated by the 3DS, and included a dock to substitute dropping out of the home console market with the ill fated Wii U, attempting to bring their entire audience together under one roof. The Switch also brought back Wii esque motion controls, and despite weaker hardware, were able to get a fair amount of downgraded but serviceable console ports its earlier years, some even from western developers though they aren't so common these days.

Nintendo's plan succeeded, people went out to buy Switches just like the Wii minus the shortages. The Switch didn't start selling at a surprise breakneck pace like the Wii, but ended up gradually outpacing it more and more, month by month, leading it to meet the 111 million sales milestone just a couple weeks ago.

But is the Switch a sign of long term success for Nintendo's hardware, or like the Wii and DS, is it just a one meta knight stand? A splash in the pan? Bottle in a lightning?

We will need a few more quarterly reports to be sure, but already it appears that Switch sales are pulling back harder and faster than anticipated. it's hard to know the trend this early since it's still selling at a high number, but in a couple more quarters we should have enough data from Nintendo's financial meetings to see if the Switch is going to pull back hard and fast like the Wii did, or if the Switch will continue to sell for a longer period of time and this is a short term pullback.

But so far, the trend is similar to what happened with the Wii in late 2010, and I'm not completely writing off that the Switch isn't just another temporary success like the Wii unless the current trend changes. When it happened with the Wii it also didn't seem like anything was going to happen, but then out of nowhere came rapid deceleration, so you never know with Nintendo consoles 100% which way they will go coming off success.
Shouldn't this thread be called " will the Switch successor be as successful as Wii U?" The topic has little to do with the actual Switch.
 

blacktout

Member
The publisher is displayed under each game, it's already set in order of release date, all you had to do was count the releases as you went through the pages.

If it's so simple to go through 13 pages, keeping a running tally of each game by a western publisher, why didn't you do it, instead of dropping a link and asking us to do your homework? You spend like fifteen hours a day posting on this forum anyway, it would give you (and, more importantly, the rest of us) a nice break.
 
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Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
If it's so simple to go through 13 pages, keeping a running tally of each game by a western publisher, why didn't you do it, instead of dropping a link and asking us to do your homework? You spend like fifteen hours a day posting on this forum anyway, it would give you (and, more importantly, the rest of us) a nice break.

You don't even need to make an excuse this poor, you can go a few pages for each time frame without doing all the releases and the numbers will still create a gap. You want to only do 2017 and just a few months in 18 and stop, and do the same for 2020-2021? Nothing changes.

Irony is, it's you btw, that's asking us to believe your lack of homework. it's not mine. The claim you and Woopah, made that just because the Switch sold well means western support improvement is going to come automatically with a successor, with Nintendo doing nothing to even make that possible, is baseless, and you want people to believe this with no evidence or a valid argument supporting it.

The fact you have to try and attack my post frequency (as if people haven't heard of tabs or mobile phones before, and takes less than 2-3 minutes to make a post) just shows you're not able to actual back up anything you say, and shows you are insecure with anyone disagreeing with such a evidence-free claim. On a subject people widely associate with Nintendo: Poor western support.

Nintendo is notorious for poor western support, most people here even know this, I don't know what else to tell you, be mad at them for not doing anything to improve or retain that support, making up evidence-free theories and then getting mad at someone pointing out the objectively (low) output, and history of the company having poor support going back years, instead of Nintendo, doesn't really help your claim become anymore factual than it already wasn't.

Now, if Nintendo at some point before the Switch 2 launch changes tune and actually works to attract western publishers, and creates a plan to retain them, then I can see the Switch 2 having improved support. A perfectly rational take on the issue, instead of imagining western publishers are going to run to Nintendo out of nowhere.
 
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Nautilus

Member
It objectively hasn't.

The Switch has had poor major western third party support at retail that got worse since earlier in its life. it's dropped off enough to be not too far from the Wii U's.

It's pointless to expect that to improve out of nowhere on the Switch 2 if Nintendo continues to not bother trying to get them onboard. if anything, they may feel they don't need them unlike the start of the gen given the current sales, outside a few IPS here and there.
Wut?

On what planet you live in? Since when getting Sonic Frontiers day and date, ALOT of Bethesda games(even if later), Hogwards Legacy, be the best console for indies, get a shitton of support from japanese devs, like Square and Capcom, is "getting close to what the Wii U was"? And mind you, the things I listed does not even represent 20% of the Switch's reality.

Switch has arguably the best third party support since the DS and the Super Nintendo.

You guys must be living on Mars...
 

Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
Wut?

On what planet you live in? Since when getting Sonic Frontiers day and date, ALOT of Bethesda games(even if later), Hogwards Legacy, be the best console for indies, get a shitton of support from japanese devs, like Square and Capcom, is "getting close to what the Wii U was"? And mind you, the things I listed does not even represent 20% of the Switch's reality.

Switch has arguably the best third party support since the DS and the Super Nintendo.

You guys must be living on Mars...

I'm confused by this post given what you quoted, which mentioned western third party support, and never talked about games like Sonic Frontiers, Square, or other Japanese third party support.
 

Woopah

Member
Which isn't what I said, you are clearly grasping trying to spin the fact the western support is dropping. You know exactly what my argument was and you are clearly trying to reframe the discussion it to pretend that support is improved, it's not. That's not even how YOU originally framed your position at the start of this discussion.
My argument was "Western support has got better since launch". You said "it hasn't". My argument right from the start was that Western support improved since launch, but then that progress stalled. So what am I trying to reframe exactly

I've asked you to provide some examples of publishers, so I guess it is only fair that I do the same:

Take Two Interactive

2017

  1. L.A. Noire
  2. NBA 2K18
  3. WWE 2K18
2018

  1. NBA 2K19
  2. NBA 2K Playgrounds 2
  3. Carnival Games
  4. Civilisation IV

2019

1. NBA 2K20

2020

1. Bioshock: The Collection
2. Borderlands: The Collection
3. XCOM2 Collection
4. The Outer Worlds
5. PGA Tour 2K21
6. NBA 2K21
7. WWE 2K Battlegrounds

2021

1. NBA 2K22
2.Tales from the Borderlands
3. GTA Definitive Collection

2022

1. NBA 2K23
2.New Tales from the Borderlands
3. Marvel's Midnight Suns(this was supposed to come out this year, but I don't believe we have a new date yet)

So there's no big noticeable drop off and support has been been stronger the last few years than it was at launch (with 2020 being a particularly big year)


Activision Blizzard

2017

1. Skylanders: Imaginators

2018

1.Crash Bandictoot N. Sane Trilogy
2. Diablo 3

2019

1. Crash Team Racing
2. Spyro: Reignited Trilogy

2020

nothing

2021

1. Crash Bandicoot 4
2. Tony Hawks Pro Skater 1+2

2022

1. Overwatch 2

So hopefully these lists explain my points better, that Switch is in a better place now that it was in 2017. You have publishers like 2k which improved support, and others like Activision Blizzard which kept it broadly the same. No western publisher has worsened Switch support.
 
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Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
My argument was "Western support has got better since launch". You said "it hasn't". My argument right from the start was that Western support improved since launch, but then that progress stalled. So what am I trying to reframe exactly

You make a broad claim, then try to reframe it as "I mean that some publishers who where there at the start still published games later" you know that's not what I was arguing, and you didn't frame it that way until several posts later after my first few replies. You even made an excuse for the poor support originally

In the West, the Switch support was held back by people not knowing if it could a be a success. A significantly more powerful Switch 2 would not suffer from this concern.

You said Switch support was held back by not knowing if it could be a success, that's not the reason why support was held back. You then say that a significantly more powerful Switch would NOT suffer this concern because reasons you never articulated well. You then made this claim

They don't need to focus on Switch 2, just include it in their plans. The expected large userbase and strong software sales should be enough to get western publishers to increase their support (outside of EA).

Which is silly, western devs aren't going to run to Nintendo because of stronge sales and a large userbase, it didn't happen before, Nintendo would have to actually try to get them on board, and have a plan to retain them to see a any real improvement in western support.

Since then you've reframed the discussion multiple times.
 

hinch7

Member
Nintendo's portables have historically sold well through the generations. And the NS has exceeded a lot of peoples expectations, including Nintendo no doubt. The next Nintendo console will probably continue that trend with another hybrid Switch-like console, so no.. its successor won't be another Wii to Wii U transition.

Unless Nintendo goes ditches the portable console and goes for the traditional approach and totally messes up it launch and marketing. I very much doubt they'll get into a Wii U situation again.
 
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Nautilus

Member
I'm confused by this post given what you quoted, which mentioned western third party support, and never talked about games like Sonic Frontiers, Square, or other Japanese third party support.
Sorry. I'm just tired of this old narrative of the Switch not having third party, so I always end up listing the japanese support.

But sure, western support has only grown:Bethesda, CD Project Red, Hogwards Legacy, indies in general(best console for indies), MS of all devs, Ubisoft, Blizzard, Activision, Take Two and so many more.
 
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blacktout

Member
https://www.nintendolife.com/nintendo-switch/games/browse?sort=date&status=released&page=13

Already got it in release date order for you, cross-reference with the lists on other sites if you think there's something missing but I doubt there's much if any, 2017-2019 had more western support than 2019-now. You can even take the 2nd half of 2019 off and it's still a big gap.

Alright, I'm a sucker, so I actually attempted this (again), using the Nintendo Life list, but this time I hit two new problems:

1. Some releases from western third parties aren't listed (Doom Eternal and Crysis 2 & 3 for example). I'm guessing this is because they didn't get physical releases, but I don't think you can just discount games that didn't release on carts as being insignificant, especially as digital distribution becomes more and more dominant and since, as was mentioned earlier, many Switch third party releases are ports of older games which might not end up with physical releases for any number of reasons.

2. Deciding what qualifies as a major western third party publisher is trickier than I thought. Like, obviously EA and Ubisoft count, but what about Devolver Digital? Nicalis? Are they too "indie"? What about all of the various arms of Embracer Group? Seems obvious that they should, even though they mostly publish AA games. What about Deep Silver? Techland? Then you have shovelware farms like Microids and GameMill. They don't feel like they should count, but they're prolific as fuck. And the you have weird situations like NIS America and XSEED, where you have Western labels that basically exist exclusively to publish Japanese games. And these are just a few examples. "Major western publisher" seems like it should be a simple label to apply, but it's actually a shitshow.
 
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Woopah

Member
You make a broad claim, then try to reframe it as "I mean that some publishers who where there at the start still published games later" you know that's not what I was arguing, and you didn't frame it that way until several posts later after my first few replies. You even made an excuse for the poor support originally
Maybe I am not understanding you. I thought you were saying that Western Switch support has gotten worse since its earlier life. My rebuttal is that, if some publishers have increased support and others kept the same level, then Western Switch support is not worse then earlier in its earlier life. This was shown by my lists.

You said Switch support was held back by not knowing if it could be a success, that's not the reason why support was held back. You then say that a significantly more powerful Switch would NOT suffer this concern because reasons you never articulated well. You then made this claim
Apologies if I'm not making myself clear. The Switch was coming off the 3DS/ Wii U, so third parties were reluctant to invest in it too much. The Switch 2 will be coming off the much more successful Switch, and so third parties will have more certainty that it will be successful and be more willing to invest in it. Therefore the Western support at the start of Switch 2 will be stronger than it was at the start of Switch. In addition to this, the greater power of the successor will make it easier for games to be ported to Switch 2 then the Switch. By making porting easier, more Western third party studios will include Switch 2 in their plans.

Which is silly, western devs aren't going to run to Nintendo because of stronge sales and a large userbase, it didn't happen before, Nintendo would have to actually try to get them on board, and have a plan to retain them to see a any real improvement in western support.
That is Nintendo's plan though, approach Western third parties and say "we have a platform with strong hardware/software sales, you can make money by bringing your games to our ecosystem". Nintendo talks with these third parties all the time.

Since then you've reframed the discussion multiple times.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Reframed the argument from what to what?
 

Ozzie666

Member
Nintendo's support for the WII in the finally few years fell off a cliff, gamers were not happy. The Media was not happy. Nintendo needs to avoid similar such things with this transition for whatever comes next. Nintendo will need to fight it's urge to re-create and revolutionize. They need to instead continue the Switch platform with minor changes, it's probably viable for another generation. All I know is Nintendo's current level of success is enviable, especially in Japan. Their level of domination is actually comical in Japan. I'd not be surprised if they are struggling internally on how to best proceed, it must be really difficult when they are more than holding their own. Just about to release Splatoon 3. Is this the last swan song?

In terms of Western Support, I'd not let perceived Quantity rule over quality in terms of what is being offered. No matter how big the user base is, companies like Electronic Arts (easy to pick on) continue to give the Switch the middle finger. A lot of Western developers aren't putting their talent on the system, making it an afterthought and quick cash crab.

Final comments, Nintendo has struck gold with the Switch, that's obvious. But current tech is coming into a really good place to allow for a scalable platforms to allow for a Switch Hybrid, Hand Held and either a more powerful console or dock that increases performance (scaling, extra hardware). Nintendo could keep their teams on still one platform, just seems to make too much sense. Microsoft and Sony really missed the boat, but found their own way.

Nintendo has let me down on transitions for nearly 30 years, I think they finally figure this one out and play it safe. Slightly more power, re-design, QQL features and fix the drift.
 
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Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
That is Nintendo's plan though, approach Western third parties and say "we have a platform with strong hardware/software sales, you can make money by bringing your games to our ecosystem". Nintendo talks with these third parties all the time.

They've been doing that since they entered the Western market decades ago and it hasn't really resulted in anything yet.

Apologies if I'm not making myself clear. The Switch was coming off the 3DS/ Wii U, so third parties were reluctant to invest in it too much. The Switch 2 will be coming off the much more successful Switch, and so third parties will have more certainty that it will be successful and be more willing to invest in it.

Western third parties will have no certainty at all that their GAMES will be successful on it based on the majority of ports not selling that well, there are only three western games published that sold over 1 million copies, two are just over it, and two are from 2017, one is from 2019. The best selling one by far, Minecraft from MS, came from 2017.

Only japanese third parties actually have a clear reason to be certain, but not western ones.

TRhe Switch was coming off the 3DS/ Wii U, so third parties were reluctant to invest in it too much. The Switch 2 will be coming off the much more successful Switch, and so third parties will have more certainty that it will be successful and be more willing to invest in it. Therefore the Western support at the start of Switch 2 will be stronger than it was at the start of Switch.

This is the part that doesn't make sense, there's no reason to believe a Switch 2 will be stronger in western support when Nintendo spend most of the Switches life not bothering, and so far hasn't shown any signs they are attempting to fix their relationship with western third parties.

Btw, the 3DS was a success, it just wasn't the DS which attracted Casuals along with the Wii. The 3DS also had power at launch unlike the original DS which was outdated, and was much weaker than the PSP. But you don't need power for Nintendogs which that along with games like Brainage and so on, were big hits.

third parties aren't listed (Doom Eternal and Crysis 2 & 3 for example). I'm guessing this is because they didn't get physical releases, but I don't think you can just discount games that didn't release on carts as being insignificant,

No one argued this or dismissed anything tho.

And these are just a few examples. "Major western publisher" seems like it should be a simple label to apply, but it's actually a shitshow.

It is simple. Xseed isn't pushing a western game so they wouldn't count as a western publisher in the context of western releases, you even named companies/IP before in a previous post showing you already had a definition of western support in mind, but here you seem to act like that never happened and there's ambiguity, when there isn't.

I also said A-AA-AAA games before, the only non-major companies would be those who are smaller than those or Indies. I also brought up Devolver digital before, which raises some questions if about if you skimmed the previous posts, considering they are one of the ONLY 3 western publishers to sell over 1 million copies on the Switch, 2 of those releases being from 2017 during launch year.

With declining western output, and eestern games not selling too well on the Switch unlike other platforms, it seems reaching to me to use the overall sales success and software success of the Switch, to use as an argument that Western Support will automatically improve with the successor.

The problem with this theory is one, it's unlikely the Switch 2 will be as successful and there's a high chance Nintendo will mess that up giving their history, and the hybrid model won't be a fresh take anymore.

2nd, if western games aren't selling that well and the biggest selling title is Minecraft from 2017, that doesn't give much confidence to western publishers about long term success or evergreen sales on Nintendo platforms, the output dropping is just icing, and isn't even as much of a problem as the sales figures.

Some of the most celebrated games or ports have no sales numbers reported. if they are, they just give lip service saying things like how they are satisfied with Switch sales but without ay numbers, then despite the lip service, don't put more effort into games for it right after the statement, just like other Nintendo platforms where they give similar lip service. These same companies usually don't have problems giving numbers for other platforms however.

Look at NBA 2k21, PGA Tour 2k21, Minecraft Dungeons, and The Outerworlds, just for example of some recent releases, you would expect these games to attract a sizable audience from the (at the time) 85 million units sold, yet we hear nothing, of it fwe do it's vague lip service. No wonder EA won't touch the platform, Minecraft only had major success earlier with the original release,, and Outerworlds was anticipated and growing fast when it released on the Switch, these are are mass appeal titles. That's not including popular less family friendly games like MK11, how badly did that sell on Switch?

If the sales aren't there than the output drops, as consequence there's not much confidence for developers to jump on board with more releases. Switch has been out since 2017, that was 5 years ago.

Just a reminder the Wii had 17 western best-selling releases through the Wii's lifespan. Where the Switch only had 3 with two in 2017. But the Switch has triple the software sales, higher adoption rate, and seems to be more popular with the parents and kids. If anything, the Switch is showing that not only does Nintendo not care much about working with western studios beyond a limited scope, but that there's not much sales or profit to be gained on the Nintendo Switch for Western publishers. Even the original DS had around 7 western best sellers and that was dominated by Japanese Nintendo FP, family, education, and pet games.

No matter how big the user base is, companies like Electronic Arts (easy to pick on) continue to give the Switch the middle finger. A lot of Western developers aren't putting their talent on the system, making it an afterthought and quick cash crab.

This has been the case for some time now and Nintendo has done little to change it. Even when EA was on their platform they didn't release their best, I remember the Fifa 13 scandal where it turned out EA just released Fifa 12 again but changed the box.

https://www.wired.com/2012/10/fifa-13-wii/
 

blacktout

Member
which raises some questions if about if you skimmed the previous posts

Of course I did, because each one is an impenetrable wall of text that takes statements out of context and does everything possible to reframe and deflect instead of engaging with the core of any argument. The sick thing is that I read and respond at all, which I won't be doing anymore (for real this time, I hope).
 

Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
that takes statements out of context and does everything possible to reframe and deflect

it's great you admitted that you've done this with every post you've made in the thread so far because you can't actually back up or provide a valid argument for your nonsensical stance that ignores objective numbers (which you call reframing) for personal wants and beliefs.

You can avoid addressing the valid flaw in your points all you want, it doesn't change the fact that western third party support won't improve unless the games are actually selling and Nintendo bothers to appeal to Western publishers. Every time your caught with your pants down,. you make some short post that only contains a poor attempt to move the goal posts and reframe the discussion while trying to attack me, instead of providing and intelligent or rational defense for your conspiracy theory. This is because you can't actually defend your statement so your only hope is to try and start some unrelated back and forth debate when the truth is plain to see.

Switch has 3 Western published best sellers, two are from launch, one is from 2019, not others have been discovered. Games that appeal to casuals have not resulted in high sales despite the audience being on the Switch, which has a larger install base, more family/kid users, much higher software sales than the Wii, but the Wii had 17.

The output of western games has objectively dropped, western publishers are not hopping on board despite the sales numbers, which are now over 11 million, this is likely because they see no benefit to releasing on it, other than a few publishers that believe they can make extra cash, and those are among the few that are still releasing games for it, and marketing them in stores, if they are marketing them at all.

The likelihood that the Switches success will result in automaniac improvement in western support with a successor, is just as logical as saying that the success of the Wii will result in improved western support on the Wii U, or the DS to the 3DS. never happened.

So far you haven't provided a single reason or argument to support the claim other than dodging and attacking me, but never actually supporting what you're saying, which shows me you have no confidence in your own argument and are instead trying to find some way to disassociate yourself from it. If you can't actually back up the conspiracy theory than just say it and we can move on. Every time you reply you don't hold up your claims, you just go around them and make accusations toward the person rightfully pointing out how absurd that logic is.

Unless Nintendo actually puts effort into trying, don't expect Switch 2 western support to improve.
 
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blacktout

Member
it's great you admitted that you've done this with every post you've made in the thread so far because you can't actually back up or provide a valid argument for your nonsensical stance that ignores objective numbers (which you call reframing) for personal wants and beliefs.

I've put you on ignore now. This is a courtesy statement, so you don't waste time writing another twelve paragraphs in response to my one sentence posts in the future.
 
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Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
I've put you on ignore now.

All you've done is shown you can't actually back up anything you argued for multiple posts, each time you are given an opportunity to support your augment or to answer questions about obvious flaws in your post, which ignores history and the objective numbers we DO have, you don't, and instead try to change the topic, attack me, or make posts like this.

The only conclusion to come to is you were arguing in bad faith, never had any idea what you were talking about, and argued based only on the fact I didn't believe your claim, but how can I do that if you provide no reason to?

<>
So addressing everyone else, his argument was that the Switch 2, because the Switch was/is a success, would automatically see improvement in major WESTERN third party support, with Nintendo doing nothing. He also believes that Switches third party support is currently better than it was the first half of its life cycle.

I responded that, historically Nintendo has had poor Western support, and that having a successful console has never guaranteed Nintendo any Western Support without trying to appeal to them even if only for a short time. Nintendo could actually try to appeal to western studios for their next handheld or hybrid, whatever they plan, but based on history it's unlikely and most people on Gaf know this.

I then pointed out the decreasing number of major western releases on Switch from the first few years, the lack of high sales for western output on the Switch which would impact confidence, and the fact only 3 Western published A-AA-AAA games have sold over 1 million copies on the Switch and two were from 2017. I even brought up several popular casual friendly titles and pointed out we have not seen any indication they sold well on the Switch.

I also pointed out that the Wii best sellers list had 17 western releases selling over 1 million copies across its lifespan and the DS 7. Showing that Western sales have not improved, along with the declining output, and if the sales are low why would the output increase?

Most of this stuff is objective, however Blacktout decided to blackout this information and still argue that this is all wrong, but never provided any reasoning or argument as to why. This is for something everyone knows, that Nintendo had had bad Western third party support. Instead of addressing the flaws in his claim, or defending it with something anything, all he has done is make posts attacking, posts dismissing the evidence, or posts like the one I quoted here. not once had there been any attempt to substantiate their position. Now I am on ignore, ok, that still doesn't make their position any less unbelievable.

Bottom line is, unless Nintendo changes for the Switch 2 and goes out of their way to put in effort to attract and then retain western devs and pubs, Nintendo will continue to have poor Western Support, especially in the long term, in regards to releases. Simple as that. A reasonable conclusion based on the facts and Nintendo's history.
 
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Woopah

Member
Western third parties will have no certainty at all that their GAMES will be successful on it based on the majority of ports not selling that well, there are only three western games published that sold over 1 million copies, two are just over it, and two are from 2017, one is from 2019. The best selling one by far, Minecraft from MS, came from 2017.

Only japanese third parties actually have a clear reason to be certain, but not western ones.
Where are you getting this information from? How do you know the ports aren't selling well?

Third party publishers very very rarely reveal the platform breakdowns of their games. If they don't report the sales of the PS, Xbox or PC versions, why would they reveal the sales of the Switch version?

What we do know is that in FY21 alone there were 14 third party Switch games with retail releases that sold over 1 million units. Nintendo reports third party million sellers every fiscal year.

I find it very unlikely that all 14 million sellers were from Japanese publishers. It's much more likely to be a mixture of Western and Eastern games.
This is the part that doesn't make sense, there's no reason to believe a Switch 2 will be stronger in western support when Nintendo spend most of the Switches life not bothering, and so far hasn't shown any signs they are attempting to fix their relationship with western third parties.

Btw, the 3DS was a success, it just wasn't the DS which attracted Casuals along with the Wii. The 3DS also had power at launch unlike the original DS which was outdated, and was much weaker than the PSP. But you don't need power for Nintendogs which that along with games like Brainage and so on, were big hits.
But Nintendo did bother. They made sure that commonly used engines run on Switch, they approach third parties about bringing games to their platform, they showcase Western third party titles in Directs, they distribute key Western third party games in places like Europe.

What kind of other things would you like to see them do?

On the 3DS, yes it was more powerful but it required specific software made for it. That isn't the case for Switch, as third parties can port existing titles to it.

By the way, I appreciate the effort you are putting into this discussion and I am really enjoying it. So thank you for that.
 

Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
Where are you getting this information from? How do you know the ports aren't selling well?

Look up their best sellers list? Between third party sales being cited online, and Nintendo often posting their own first party published sales, they are the most transparent when it comes to sales numbers for software and hardware.

Third party publishers very very rarely reveal the platform breakdowns of their games.

I think you are being hyperbolic here. Especially with Nintendo consoles historically.

I find it very unlikely that all 14 million sellers were from Japanese publishers. It's much more likely to be a mixture of Western and Eastern games.

This is really nothing else but you not having considered looking into Nintendo western support before this thread. Western output is down from the first few years, how many western games could sell over a million if there's less of them? This isn't an Xbox or PlayStation consoles, Nintendo is always known to be dominated by Japanese games, their handhelds also were dominated by Japanese games, there has never been close to an even mixture on any Nintendo game system, and since there's poor major western support in EVERY one of them compared to at least ONE if not more of the competition each generation this isn't surprising. This goes back to the NES.

If you cheat, and include Rare as a western game even though it was owned in part and published by Nintendo, you could maybe argue the N64, but the fact you have to do that in order to even have one system appear to have even support just shows how bad it's been.

But Nintendo did bother. They made sure that commonly used engines run on Switch, they approach third parties about bringing games to their platform, they showcase Western third party titles in Directs, they distribute key Western third party games in places like Europe.

They did the same thing they did with the Wii U, they never actually went to Western developers asking what they needed, they never created an environment encouraging western developer to jump in, to believe that their is profit to be made in the short or long term, that tools and hardware don't limit them, ot that they have enough power. Nintendo never went out to help-codevelop games to bring over tot he Switch, lack of partnerships, I can go on.

Look at the Gamecube for an example of Nintendo attempting to try at the start and then giving up after about a year or two. No tome during the Switches Lifespan has innuendo ever put in that much effort again for the short time they did on the GC. They haven't even put in as much effort as they have with the N64.

Showing western games in the direct, is like Xbox showing a trailer of YS in a compilation reel at E3, that's not doing anything lol. Nintendo had no choice but to use commonly used engines, even the Japanese devs were using them, the DS days were long gone. Their approach to western third party developers was mostly lip service and limited, like their distribution.

If you research what Nintendo did with the N64, and especially the Gamecube, for that first year or two, you'll see that Nintendo has put little effort into not only increasing the number of major Western third parties on board, but retaining them, which I would say is a whole other issue that needs to be discussed, because with Switch and Wii U, we have had two consoles in a row where it looked like Western third party support may actually have improved (but it didn't) and that they got devs on board, but then the output drops significantly later on.
 

Woopah

Member
Look up their best sellers list? Between third party sales being cited online, and Nintendo often posting their own first party published sales, they are the most transparent when it comes to sales numbers for software and hardware.

There is an official list for first party games, there is no official list for third party. So what list are you using? I've found one on Wikipedia that I suspect you've been looking at, but we know for a fact that it is very very incomplete.

I think you are being hyperbolic here. Especially with Nintendo consoles historically.

It's not hyperbolic, it's a statement of fact. Third party publishers do not reveal the sales of all their games and, when they do announce sales figures, they rarely if ever give platform breakdowns. That's why that Wikipedia list is so unreliable.

I think we can both agree that it would be nice to have that data.

This is really nothing else but you not having considered looking into Nintendo western support before this thread. Western output is down from the first few years, how many western games could sell over a million if there's less of them? This isn't an Xbox or PlayStation consoles, Nintendo is always known to be dominated by Japanese games, their handhelds also were dominated by Japanese games, there has never been close to an even mixture on any Nintendo game system, and since there's poor major western support in EVERY one of them compared to at least ONE if not more of the competition each generation this isn't surprising. This goes back to the NES.

If you cheat, and include Rare as a western game even though it was owned in part and published by Nintendo, you could maybe argue the N64, but the fact you have to do that in order to even have one system appear to have even support just shows how bad it's been.

The last time Nintendo had a successful console (the Wii), there were several Western games with strong sales. Guitar Hero, the Lego titles, Rock Band, Carnival Games, Just Dance etc. etc. There will be some Western games doing well on Switch too.

I fully agree with you that the Western sales and support are still far below what is on PlayStation and Xbox.

They did the same thing they did with the Wii U, they never actually went to Western developers asking what they needed, they never created an environment encouraging western developer to jump in, to believe that their is profit to be made in the short or long term, that tools and hardware don't limit them, ot that they have enough power. Nintendo never went out to help-codevelop games to bring over tot he Switch, lack of partnerships, I can go on.



Look at the Gamecube for an example of Nintendo attempting to try at the start and then giving up after about a year or two. No tome during the Switches Lifespan has innuendo ever put in that much effort again for the short time they did on the GC. They haven't even put in as much effort as they have with the N64.



Showing western games in the direct, is like Xbox showing a trailer of YS in a compilation reel at E3, that's not doing anything lol. Nintendo had no choice but to use commonly used engines, even the Japanese devs were using them, the DS days were long gone. Their approach to western third party developers was mostly lip service and limited, like their distribution.



If you research what Nintendo did with the N64, and especially the Gamecube, for that first year or two, you'll see that Nintendo has put little effort into not only increasing the number of major Western third parties on board, but retaining them, which I would say is a whole other issue that needs to be discussed, because with Switch and Wii U, we have had two consoles in a row where it looked like Western third party support may actually have improved (but it didn't) and that they got devs on board, but then the output drops significantly later on.

Western support hasn't dropped significantly, I've already shown that with my publisher lists. If you'd like me to make lists of any other publishers I'd be happy to do so.

Regarding Nintendo working to increase and retain Western support, often times these deals are behind closed doors. But there's a post here from Emily Rogers talking about Nintendo increasing their focus on Western support - https://famiboards.com/threads/what...achter-and-nintendo-all-about.766/#post-53031

I hope you find it interesting. It talks about Nintendo doing some things you want them to do
 

Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
It's not hyperbolic, it's a statement of fact. Third party publishers do not reveal the sales of all their games and, when they do announce sales figures, they rarely if ever give platform breakdowns. That's why that Wikipedia list is so unreliable.

it's not a fact, it's only become a problem more recently. You even contradict this point later in your same post, especially on the subject of Nintendo consol;es.

The last time Nintendo had a successful console (the Wii), there were several Western games with strong sales. Guitar Hero, the Lego titles, Rock Band, Carnival Games, Just Dance etc. etc. There will be some Western games doing well on Switch too.

I fully agree with you that the Western sales and support are still far below what is on PlayStation and Xbox.

I already mentioned 3 western games that sold over a million ont he Switch, the problem is that two of them are from 2017, and one is from 2019, which is also the 2017-2019 time frame where the output was the highest relative to what happened after. proving my point. the Wii is not comparable to the Switch in Western developer success stories, despite having higher sales, more games that aren't cash grabs 9though it has plenty) more families purchasing, and much higher software sales.

Western support hasn't dropped significantly, I've already shown that with my publisher lists. If you'd like me to make lists of any other publishers I'd be happy to do so.

it factually has, it's not debatable. the output is lower. You keep reframing the conversation knowing full well that's not what I was arguing early in the conversation, changing it from the amount of major western support to whether the same developer still releases games, that tells you absolutely nothing about how well support is going.

What does is whether or not the high sales of the Switch, and the sales of other western games incentivizes more Western support, and it hasn't, there's now less than before objectively, many sites with Switch lists, it's all incredibly easy to see that the bulk of western support was in 2017-2019 mostly on the left end of that time frame.

Regarding Nintendo working to increase and retain Western support, often times these deals are behind closed doors. But there's a post here from Emily Rogers talking about Nintendo increasing their focus on Western support - https://famiboards.com/threads/what...achter-and-nintendo-all-about.766/#post-53031

That's not even what's being said in the thread, did you read it? It's echoing what I said before, lip service support, there's even someone arguing (with a good point) that the Wii U had games the Switch never got, and other posts pointing out the lack of western support and minimal improvement if any, and this is a Nintendo slanted board you linked.

I took decided to compare releases of major western releases between the Wii U 2012-2014 compared to the Switch across 2017-2019

Wii U 2012-2014

  1. Batman Arkham City
  2. Assassins Creed III
  3. COD Black Ops II
  4. Disney epic Mickey 2
  5. Darksiders II
  6. Game Party Champions
  7. Funky Barn
  8. Wipeout 3
  9. FIFA 13
  10. ESPN Sports Connection
  11. Rabbids Land
  12. Rapala Fishing
  13. Madden 13
  14. Just Dance 4
  15. Mass Effect 3
  16. Scribblenauts Unlimited
  17. NBA2k13
  18. Your shape fitness evolved
  19. Cabela 2013
  20. Zombi U
  21. Skylanders Giants
  22. Rise of the Guardians
  23. 007 Legends
  24. Marvel Avengers Battle
  25. Disney's Planes
  26. Walking Dead Survival Instinct
  27. Need for Speed Most Wanted U
  28. Amazing Spiderman
  29. Lego Batman 2
  30. Fast and Furious Showdown
  31. Injustice 1
  32. Phineas and Ferb
  33. Sniper Elite V2
  34. D&D Mystara
  35. Disney Infinity
  36. Rayman legends
  37. Hot Wheels worlds best
  38. Just Dance 2014
  39. Splinter Cell Blacklist
  40. Skylanders Swap Force
  41. Just Dance Kids 2014
  42. Spongebob Planktons Revenege
  43. Lego Marvel Super Heroes
  44. Deus EX human Revolution
  45. Batman Arkham Origins
  46. Zumba Fitness
  47. Wipeout Create and Crash
  48. Disneys Planes fire and rescue
  49. COD Ghosts
  50. Lego Movie Game
  51. F1 Race Stars
  52. Cabela Big Game Hunter
  53. Batman Arkham Origins Black Gate
  54. Lego Hobbit
  55. How to Train your Dragon 2
  56. Transformers Rise of Spark
  57. Amazing Spiderman 2
  58. Disney Infinity Marvel Heroes
  59. The Voice I want you
  60. Penguins of Madagascar
  61. Just Dance 2015
  62. Skylanders Trap team
  63. Shantae Pirate Curse
  64. Lego Batman 3
  65. Watch Dogs


Switch 2017-2019

  1. Just Dance 2017
  2. Skylanders Imaginators
  3. Cars 3
  4. Minecraft Story Mode
  5. Rayman legends Definitive
  6. RBI Baseball 2017
  7. Lego Worlds
  8. NBA 2K18
  9. Lego Ninjago
  10. FIFA 18
  11. Just Dance 2018
  12. Monopoly
  13. Farming Simulator
  14. Doom
  15. Batman Telltale
  16. Lego Marvel Super Heroes 2
  17. L.A. Noir
  18. WWE2k18
  19. Skyrim
  20. Payday 2
  21. Scribblenauts Showdown
  22. South Park Fractured but hole
  23. Minecraft Switch
  24. Lego Incredibles
  25. Crash Nsane Trilogy
  26. Adventure Time Pirates
  27. Hello Neighbor
  28. Wolfenstein 2
  29. de Blob 2
  30. FIFA 19
  31. NBA 2k Playgrounds
  32. NBA2K19
  33. Lego DC super villains
  34. Just Dance 2019
  35. Civilization VI
  36. Diablo III
  37. Lego Movie 2
  38. Darksiders Warmastered
  39. Saints Row III
  40. Mortal Kombat 11
  41. Assassins Creed III remastered
  42. Crash Team Racing
  43. Wolfenstein Youngblood
  44. Spyro Reignited
  45. NBA 2k20
  46. Lego Jurassic World
  47. Darksiders II definitive
  48. Dead by Daylight
  49. Ghostbusters remastered
  50. Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 remastered
  51. Overwatch
  52. Planetscape Torment and icewind dale
  53. Witcher III
  54. Just Dance 2020
  55. Doom Eternal
  56. Assassins Creed Rebel
  57. Never Winter nights Enhanced.

May be possible I might be missing a small amount from each list, but it won't change the fact that the Wii U had more Western third party support, I'm not even sure the Switch is ahead if you include small studios and indies since there's more on the Wii U than I though but that's a different discussion.

These lists look even worse for the Switch when you consider that the Wii U had more spaced out releases, and significantly less of them in the US and pretty much everywhere else. The Switch has much more in the way of software support, yet had less Western support in its peak years of Western support than the Wii, as both consoles Western Support output dropped considerably after that 3rd year which is why I used the same time frame for both.

What's also pretty concerning is that, even if the Switch was ahead by 5 or 10 games, that gap would still be too small given the sizes of their library but it's not even that, it's behind the Wii U. I also noticed the Wii u has several companies or games in certain genres that are absent on the Switch, more so than the otherway around.
 

Woopah

Member
it's not a fact, it's only become a problem more recently. You even contradict this point later in your same post, especially on the subject of Nintendo consoles.

It's not a problem more recently, it's been that way for a long long time. I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say.

EA does not tell us how much each of their games sold on each platform. We have no idea how much the PS4 version of FIFA 22 sold, or the Xbox One version sold, or the Switch version sold, or the PC version sold. None of the other major publishers regularly share this information either.

So my point is we don't know the identity of all Switch's third party million sellers. We don't know the identity of all third party million sellers for any platform.

This is not something I've contradicted.

I already mentioned 3 western games that sold over a million ont he Switch, the problem is that two of them are from 2017, and one is from 2019, which is also the 2017-2019 time frame where the output was the highest relative to what happened after. proving my point. the Wii is not comparable to the Switch in Western developer success stories, despite having higher sales, more games th't cash grabs 9though it has plenty) more families purchasing, and much higher software sales.

Please can you share your source for the "three western games that sold over a million". Is it the Wikipedia article which we know is wrong?

For reference, this is the Xbox One version of the Wikipedia article.. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_Xbox_One_video_games. You would agree this list is unreliable yes?


it factually has, it's not debatable. the output is lower. You keep reframing the conversation knowing full well that's not what I was arguing early in the conversation, changing it from the amount of major western support to whether the same developer still releases games, that tells you absolutely nothing about how well support is going.

I am not trying to reframe the argument, I apologize if it has come off this way.

You're argument (as I understand it) is that Western third party support was stronger in its early years but then dropped significantly. I was investigating whether this was true by looking at specific publishers (because it's simpler than looking at all publishers)

But you have clearly put a lot of effort into the Wii U comparison (which is very interesting btw), so I should do the same. I'll do a through Switch analysis tomorrow when I'm back home

That's not even what's being said in the thread, did you read it? It's echoing what I said before, lip service support.

I linked to a specific post in that thread from a games journalist which said:

1. Nintendo paid for a new engine for EA so that that would bring FIFA to the platform
2. Nintendo provided funding for Bethesda to bring over Skyrim, Doom and Doom Eternal to Switch
3. Nintendo provided funding for CDProject Red to bring the Witcher 3 to Switch
4. Nintendo provided funding for Blizzard to bring Diablo 3 to Switch
5. Nintendo provided funding for Rockstar to bring GTA Trilogy to Switch

That's not lip service. That's actually spending money. These are the sorts of actions you want Nintendo to take right?
 

Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
EA does not tell us how much each of their games sold on each platform. We have no idea how much the PS4 version of FIFA 22 sold, or the Xbox One version sold, or the Switch version sold, or the PC version sold. None of the other major publishers regularly share this information either.

Yes, and this has been an issue in recent years, going back firther they were more open and so where other third parties, what's funny is that openess was related to showing if their games were selling on Nintendo systems as well, which is why we got as much sales for the Wii U and Wii that we did. especially the former.

Please can you share your source for the "three western games that sold over a million". Is it the Wikipedia article which we know is wrong?

Are you just refusing to research on what Western sales numbers have been revealed and won't leave Wiki or? Switch sales numbers are out there, few western devs have sold over a million.

The new sales data for Switch (and 3DS) also puts emphasis on how lopsided sales are to Japan, and even Japanese third parties, while there's more million sellers, it does seem to mostly fall into the same group of companies. Nintendo is known for shoving others aside for themselves.

But back tot he point, you seem to be trying very hard to argue, for some reason, that there's these hidden multi-million sellers from Western releases on the Switch which is as likely as believing that for any other Nintendo system, so in other words it's not realistic.

You're argument (as I understand it) is that Western third party support was stronger in its early years but then dropped significantly. I was investigating whether this was true by looking at specific publishers (because it's simpler than looking at all publishers)

This doesn't make any sense.

I can have Ubisoft, Activision, and Google pick up games and release cumulatively 20 games on a system, but if at the same time, the total releases was 75 for all western releases, and it dropped to 15, it doesn't matter if among that 15 it still included games rereleased by Ubisoft, Activision, and Google, in this example, like any other realistic scenario, the question would be where did the other 60 releases go that were contributng to software and hardware sales and expanding the consoles demographics? The answer is gone.

The output is what matters here, the convincing of more western releases on the Switch should be the goal, higher sales figures will increase both as well and is another factor to consider, if all 3 of these aren't doing well after seemingly being passable in the first half of the systems lifecycle, and falls in the 2nd that's BAD.

I linked to a specific post in that thread from a games journalist which said:

1. Nintendo paid for a new engine for EA so that that would bring FIFA to the platform
2. Nintendo provided funding for Bethesda to bring over Skyrim, Doom and Doom Eternal to Switch
3. Nintendo provided funding for CDProject Red to bring the Witcher 3 to Switch
4. Nintendo provided funding for Blizzard to bring Diablo 3 to Switch
5. Nintendo provided funding for Rockstar to bring GTA Trilogy to Switch

That's not lip service. That's actually spending money. These are the sorts of actions you want Nintendo to take right?

It's 100% lip service and less effort than they put in from the past.

They helped bring over a handful of games, some of which they helped fund, and then their efforts halved as time went on.

What you listed here is the bare minimum, especially compared to the competition, or the Wii U, or the Gamecube, or even the N64.

There are so many things that Microsoft and Sony do that Nintendo doesn't do with the Switch it's astounding, and the fact they can't even meet their previous attempts at effort is even more shocking. 111 million consoles sold not even bothering to try so far.

All you're doing is trying to find anything that looks like effort and then exaggerating the effect. Microsoft and Sony, have funded games, co-developed games, various partnerships models, distributed games, helped market games and more.

Microsoft put more effort in their first 4 years trying to gain a foothold with anime obsessed and in the country of Japan with the 360 than Nintendo has put in trying to get Western devs across the Switch, and possibly the Wii U put together.

I also listed the Wii U compared to the Switch, if the Switch was such an improvement, let's ignore the higher number count for the Wii U, if Switch was a step in the right direction why is western output falling off in the same time frame? I am not seeing any improvement in output or retention.

Instead what I am seeing, is compared to the Wii and Wii U, a much higher percentage of Nintendo games selling well, and Japanese third parties, and not much room for western devs, and Nintendo clearly isn't trying to remedy that, including partnering to expand marketing for the long term for long term sales of the western games they "funded". All lip service.
 

Woopah

Member
Yes, and this has been an issue in recent years, going back firther they were more open and so where other third parties, what's funny is that openess was related to showing if their games were selling on Nintendo systems as well, which is why we got as much sales for the Wii U and Wii that we did. especially the former.
So we agree that third parties don't reveal all their sale information. Which companies do you think were better at sharing sales numbers in the past?

Are you just refusing to researh on what Western sales numbers have been revealed and won't leave Wiki or? Switch sales numbers are out there, few western devs have sold over a million.

The new sales data for Switch (and 3DS) also puts emphasis on how lopsided sales are to Japan, and even Japanese third parties, while there's more million sellers, it does seem to mostly fall into the same group of companies. Nintendo is known for shoving others aside for themselves.

But back tot he point, you seem to be trying very hard to argue, for some reason, that there's these hidden multi-million sellers from Western releases on the Switch which is as likely as believing that for any other Nintendo system, so in other words it's not realistic.

It's not just hidden sellers for Nintendo systems, there are hidden sellers for almost all systems. We do not have a complete list of million sellers for Xbox One, 360, PS4, PS3, Switch, 3DS etc. etc.

So if the complete information is not available, what list are you looking at? All I'm asking is for you to share your source for the claim you made about three western million sellers on Switch. What are you basing that claim on?

If you have access to non-public sales information and we are able to identify the 14 third party million sellers on Switch from the last fiscal year, then that would be great! Then we could see how many were Japanese and how many were Western.

There are so many things that Microsoft and Sony do that Nintendo doesn't do with the Switch it's astounding, and the fact they can't even meet their previous attempts at effort is even more shocking. 111 million consoles sold not even bothering to try so



All you're doing is trying to find anything that looks like effort and then exaggerating the effect. Microsoft and Sony, have funded games, co-developed games, various partnerships models, distributed games, helped market games and more

Microsoft put more effort in their first 4 years trying to gain a foothold with anime obsessed and in the country of Japan with the 360 than Nintendo has put in trying to get Western devs across the Switch, and possibly the Wii U put together.

I'm not exaggerating anything. I'm stating facts. It is not "lip service" to fund development. That's an action, not words.

Do they do as much as Sony/Microsoft? No. Can Nintendo do a lot more? Yes. We are in complete agreement there.

I'll comment on Western output when I've done the analysis :)
 
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Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
So if the complete information is not available, what list are you looking at? All I'm asking is for you to share your source for the claim you made about three western million sellers on Switch. What are you basing that claim on?


https://hardcoregamer.com/news/ente...itch-with-physical-edition-on-the-way/326203/

https://exputer.com/news/games/minecraft-best-selling-switch-game/

To be fair, it's really 2 instead of 3 since one of those is an indie style release, but the grand total is 3 for now.
 

SF Kosmo

...please disperse...
I think high end handheld with console functionality is a good market segment for Nintendo, and one that they can continue to own if they stay the course.

But this is Nintendo, so there are no guarantees. They like to change up just for the sake of novelty. Their next system might be a hybrid console/waffle iron with edible controllers. We just have to wait and see.
 

Woopah

Member

https://hardcoregamer.com/news/ente...itch-with-physical-edition-on-the-way/326203/

https://exputer.com/news/games/minecraft-best-selling-switch-game/

To be fair, it's really 2 instead of 3 since one of those is an indie style release, but the grand total is 3 for now.
Thank you for sharing your sources. I appreciate that.

The problem we have is that this is just 3 of the many million sellers on Switch. So we can say that these are 3 of the Western million sellers on Switch. We can't say these are the only Western million sellers on Switch. We don't have a complete list of Switch million sellers, do we don't know how many of them are Western or how many of them are Japanese.

In recent years, Nintendo has been revealing the number of third party games which sold more than 1 million units in that particular year. Those numbers are:

FY22 - 13 https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2022/220510_7e.pdf (page 10)
FY21 - 14 https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2021/210506_4e.pdf (page 11)
FY20 - 9 https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2020/200507_4e.pdf (page 12)

Unfortunately that still doesn't give us the total number because:

1. It doesn't cover the entire Switch's lifespan
2. It doesn't include games which sold over 1 million in total but in different fiscal years
3. It doesn't cover games without retail releases (so Thief Simulator or Enter the Gunegeon would not be included here, not unless Enter the Gungeon sold an additional million units in a single fiscal year after the physical version came out)

The only way we can ever have a complete list is if publishers reveal the breakdown of their games, but that is very very rare. Luckily CD Project Red are one of those rare publishers who do share platform breakdowns. That's how we know The Witcher 3 is a million seller on Switch.

So unfortunately it is highly unlikely that we will ever know the true number of third party million sellers on Switch, Western or otherwise.
 

Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
Thank you for sharing your sources. I appreciate that.

The problem we have is that this is just 3 of the many million sellers on Switch. So we can say that these are 3 of the Western million sellers on Switch. We can't say these are the only Western million sellers on Switch. We don't have a complete list of Switch million sellers, do we don't know how many of them are Western or how many of them are Japanese.

In recent years, Nintendo has been revealing the number of third party games which sold more than 1 million units in that particular year. Those numbers are:

FY22 - 13 https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2022/220510_7e.pdf (page 10)
FY21 - 14 https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2021/210506_4e.pdf (page 11)
FY20 - 9 https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2020/200507_4e.pdf (page 12)

Unfortunately that still doesn't give us the total number because:

1. It doesn't cover the entire Switch's lifespan
2. It doesn't include games which sold over 1 million in total but in different fiscal years
3. It doesn't cover games without retail releases (so Thief Simulator or Enter the Gunegeon would not be included here, not unless Enter the Gungeon sold an additional million units in a single fiscal year after the physical version came out)

The only way we can ever have a complete list is if publishers reveal the breakdown of their games, but that is very very rare. Luckily CD Project Red are one of those rare publishers who do share platform breakdowns. That's how we know The Witcher 3 is a million seller on Switch.

So unfortunately it is highly unlikely that we will ever know the true number of third party million sellers on Switch, Western or otherwise.

Your link does not say anything about CD Project saying they sold a million on the Switch. Only thing I can find on that is this: https://www.gamespot.com/a/uploads/...2673-screen shot 2020-04-09 at 9.40.45 am.png

You are also ignoring how lopsided Nintendos console sales are toward themselves, then usually the same select Japanese third-parties before any of the others, Western games are at the bottom. There aren't a bunch of hidden western million sellers.
 
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Woopah

Member
Your link does not say anything about CD Project saying they sold a million on the Switch. Only thing I can find on that is this: https://www.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/1179/11799911/3652673-screen shot 2020-04-09 at 9.40.45 am.png

You are also ignoring how lopsided Nintendos console sales are toward themselves, then usually the same select Japanese third-parties before any of the others, Western games are at the bottom. There aren't a bunch of hidden western million sellers.
That graph shows The Witcher 3 at 700,000 on Switch at the end of 2019. The updated version up to 2021 has it sat at 1.8 million as shown by the post I linked to (I've copied the text below in case that is easier)

Xbox = 5.8275M
Playstation = 14.451M
PC = 21.6206M
Switch = 1.8026M
Total = 43.7017M

We can't say "there aren't a bunch of hidden western million sellers" because we do not know that. We don't have enough information to make that claim. The Witcher 3 was a hidden million seller until recently, so there may be others as well.
 

Eddie-Griffin

Gold Member
That graph shows The Witcher 3 at 700,000 on Switch at the end of 2019. The updated version up to 2021 has it sat at 1.8 million as shown by the post I linked to (I've copied the text below in case that is easier)

Xbox = 5.8275M
Playstation = 14.451M
PC = 21.6206M
Switch = 1.8026M
Total = 43.7017M

We can't say "there aren't a bunch of hidden western million sellers" because we do not know that. We don't have enough information to make that claim. The Witcher 3 was a hidden million seller until recently, so there may be others as well.

I don't see this post, but it seems I would have to register to see it anyway. Looking into those numbers for verification which you should also do) that's not from CDproject at all, and it seems to be the forums guessing data.

I also find it curious how they have the PS5 close to 15.5 million, which is 4.5 million more than the 2019 total despite the sales shrinking down considerably during 2019, while the Xbox One basically stopped after adding only slightly more than a million more.

This isn't accurate data, even VGchartz has a lower number, and they are quick to correct when real data comes out, so that means that even they haven't found this 1.8 million.

You say the claimed update was as of 2021, but in 2021, the only sales news was that the Witcher 3 sold 30 million, and it sold 28 million later in 2020, So you getting a total of 43 million added together is impossible for 2021, because the 40 million announcement didn't happen until this year, 2022.
 
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