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[Hoddi]

this is more like a PS4 CGi level, maybe a PS3 CGi level graphics.
But we'll only see that on next gen, PS6...
This time I'm proud of playing early 2000's CGi, like Spirit Within and Toy Story 2
What do you think?

I think you missed the point because the current consoles are already powerful enough to run with these type of graphics. They just don't have enough memory to do so in games.

Had they shipped with 32GB then we'd already be seeing much bigger differences between PS4 and PS5 games. Going from 8GB to 16GB was a pitiful increase and it's pretty telling that people still struggle to say if something counts as 'next gen'.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

I think you missed the point because the current consoles are already powerful enough to run with these type of graphics. They just don't have enough memory to do so in games.

Had they shipped with 32GB then we'd already be seeing much bigger differences between PS4 and PS5 games. Going from 8GB to 16GB was a pitiful increase and it's pretty telling that people still struggle to say if something counts as 'next gen'.

Main memory bandwidth became MUCH less of an issue when GPU on-die caches increased from GCN to RDNA2, and current-gen consoles were fitted with high-performance SSDs.

If you're asking the question why we're not seeing next-gen visuals in currently available games and you start talking about the hardware, you're way off base.

The hardware is NOT the issue. The issue is on the development side.

 

[CGNoire]

I think you missed the point because the current consoles are already powerful enough to run with these type of graphics. They just don't have enough memory to do so in games.

Had they shipped with 32GB then we'd already be seeing much bigger differences between PS4 and PS5 games. Going from 8GB to 16GB was a pitiful increase and it's pretty telling that people still struggle to say if something counts as 'next gen'.

Been saying this for years. The fact the game journalists willfully ignored the Vram elephant in the room when the consoles where annocunced shows you the shit state of gaming "jounalism".

 

[MetalRain]

No, many PS4 / Xbox One games were running 900p, now something like 1600p or 1800p is more common. This generation is much more closer to that 4K than previous one and spends a lot more performance to do that. You can really see the difference when game has good textures and image quality.

Balance of GPU and CPU has shifted more towards the CPU in this generation, so we could see more complex games in terms of gameplay as well once "new generation only" games start releasing.

 

[Jimmy_liv]

It's because everyone started having a tantrum about 60fps being a must have.
All the extra power is funneled into that instead of everything else.

 

[rofif]

It's because everyone started having a tantrum about 60fps being a must have.
All the extra power is funneled into that instead of everything else.

People are not giving themselves enough credit. If you play for 5 minutes you get used to it again.
Magic trick to limit fps even lower for few minutes and then put on 30fps cap hellos to reset your brain.
Again. That said if 30 fps lock is good and devs don’t have huge input lag

 

[Lysandros]

I would say Dreamcast to ps2 is lower imo

That is the same generation.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I think you missed the point because the current consoles are already powerful enough to run with these type of graphics. They just don't have enough memory to do so in games.

Had they shipped with 32GB then we'd already be seeing much bigger differences between PS4 and PS5 games. Going from 8GB to 16GB was a pitiful increase and it's pretty telling that people still struggle to say if something counts as 'next gen'.

Been saying this for years. The fact the game journalists willfully ignored the Vram elephant in the room when the consoles where annocunced shows you the shit state of gaming "jounalism".

I can almost guarantee... that RAM amount is not the reason we have not seen the kinda jumping graphics that some are expecting. Its also not that the devs cant do it on the hardware. I mean look at that matrix demo. Look at the upcoming AW2. And as more UE5 games start making it to market we will start seeing more and more impressive stuff.

The issue is time/devs. If the overall state of all the in-engine trailers that has been shown on UE5 should have thought anyone anything, is that its not that hard making extremely joking good stuff that only exists in a 1-10min trailer whose world only exists in what the camera is showing. But doing that across an entire game, maintaining or pushing that level of fidelity across a whole game world... I not an easy task.

The problem we have now isn't that the hardware isn't capable, it's that the devs just don't have the time.

 

[Lunarorbit]

Off the top of my head, yeah. This no more generations bullshit has definitely soured my feelings on the PS5. 3 years into this and only half the studios seem to give a shit about using the power they were given.

Hopefully ff16 flexes it's nutz over the industry and shows what this gen can do

 

[PeteBull]

I would say Dreamcast to ps2 is lower imo

dreamcast to ps2 was same generation tho

 

[YeulEmeralda]

Look I'm a PC gamer now but I have respect for what consoles are able to do with €399.

The PS5 is punching far above its weight trading blows with gaming rigs

 

[CGNoire]

I can almost guarantee... that RAM amount is not the reason we have not seen the kinda jumping graphics that some are expecting. Its also not that the devs cant do it on the hardware. I mean look at that matrix demo. Look at the upcoming AW2. And as more UE5 games start making it to market we will start seeing more and more impressive stuff.

The issue is time/devs. If the overall state of all the in-engine trailers that has been shown on UE5 should have thought anyone anything, is that its not that hard making extremely joking good stuff that only exists in a 1-10min trailer whose world only exists in what the camera is showing. But doing that across an entire game, maintaining or pushing that level of fidelity across a whole game world... I not an easy task.

The problem we have now isn't that the hardware isn't capable, it's that the devs just don't have the time.

Im sure additional Vram would have made a big difference in games with extensive use of RT like SM2. The extra memory most certainly wouldnt just help with RT but in turn provide addtional memory for texture res/variety and also allow for far more robust use of volumetric voxel based fluid dynamic effects work which is highly dependant on Vram.

I do think the fact that people keep blaming devs isnt helpfull and while I do agree that they dont have the ambition they used to they are really not the problem here. The problem is budget and the gatekeepers of that are the cheap risk adverse publishers. I wouldnt be the least bit suprised to find out that SM2's budget is either smaller or the same as SM1's was and yet the devs are exspected to do so much more with it.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Im sure additional Vram would have made a big difference in games with extensive use of RT like SM2. The extra memory most certainly wouldnt just help with RT but in turn provide addtional memory for texture res/variety and also allow for far more robust use of volumetric voxel based fluid dynamic effects work which is highly dependant on Vram.

I do think the fact that people keep blaming devs isnt helpfull and while I do agree that they dont have the ambition they used to they are really not the problem here. The problem is budget and the gatekeepers of that are the cheap risk adverse publishers. I wouldnt be the least bit suprised to find out that SM2's budget is either smaller or the same as SM1's was and yet the devs are exspected to do so much more with it.

While more RAMaways heps, (he with hardware more anything is way better), RAM is not the issue. And contrary to what people may think, RAM bandwidth s more important o RT than RAM amount.

But take these for instance. Agames at 4K and ultra settings.
RE4R
nRT - 11GB
wRT - 11.8GB

Hogwarts legacy
nRT - 12GB
wRT - 14.5GB

Dying light 2
nRT - 9.6GB
wRT - 11.2GB

You wi notice that going from non RT to RT is not making as significant a hit on RAM. But this is actually a bad example to use as I am using PC benchmarks here. And at native 4K at ultra settings. A better example would be to have shown 1440p instead.

And devs should be named, but try and understand that saying we blame devs is just a blanket statement. Be it the devs or the publishers or whatever... they are all in the same boat to me. And the buck ends with them. I am not even going to say they are not ambitious,I am simply saying they just do not have the time or resources or both.

And no, lets not even start saying SM2 had a lower budget, Sony doesn't do shit like that, They would have given Insomniac a blank cheque especially considering how successful the first one was. If one thing can't be said about Sony is that they don't invest in their games. As for SM2, putting the drama aside, the game is not a bad joking game. Not even in the slightest. Its just not as good-looking as most would have expected a next-gen-only game to look. And to that, it falls on the devs. It wouldn't surprise me if development for this game started properly only after Ratchet was released in 2021. What were people expecting?

 

[FunkMiller]

Yep, of course it is. Because game development has become so expensive and time consuming, it means the games companies have to release the games they make on as many platforms as possible to turn a profit. Homogenising your games to play on so many platforms automatically means you lose a generational leap in gameplay or visuals.

We've hit lowest common denominator territory.

 

[buenoblue]

PS4 pro and one x has made the jump to next gen more subdued but overall I'm happy. Games look great and most have had 60fps options. Factor in the load times and coming from PS4 pro to ps5 the sound difference is worth it alone. My PS4 pro was like a hairdryer lol.

But yeah original Xbox one to series x is truly a generational leap.

 

[Clintizzle]

No. The PS5 alone has produced games that are not possible on last gen or PC. See Ratchet and Clank.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yes. Before that, it was going from PS3 to PS4. Before that, it was going from PS2 to PS3. The next one will be smaller.

Diminishing returns is an actual thing.

… “but come on I want a Pro console 2-3 years after the generation just started” and the face palm when reading these threads. I agree with you, but for very similar reasons I posted in other threads and I see winjer posting here too, it makes less and less sense each console generation…

Also, people underestimate how expensive games that target 4K, 60-120 FPS modes (which put a ceiling to what the quality modes can reach), and RT can be more than eating the generational increase of processing power and resources.

Gamers need to give games a chance too… great games that tank as players chase thousands dollar PC visuals benchmarks and AAAA production values and checkboxes: would people play a game targeting 900p internal resolution and fancy AI reconstruction methods at 30-40 FPS if it meant some great new approaches to world density, draw distance, AI, and physical interactions? That is a big issue because it is not cheap to design and build those kind of worlds either, but aside from exceptions (see TotK) those games tend to under perform against those who deliver or bullshot much more complex visuals / graphical checkboxes.

 

[HL3.exe]

I do, and I have it. But Nintendo and indies are the outlier. For every one game that does the things you’re asking for, there’s hundreds that don’t bother to.

It used to be more common though. The 2000's were the strive for immersive/simulationst design was king (instead of just visual/window dressing). I guess that died with Crysis 1 and Far Cry 2, or in that era anyway.

 

[DragoonWalker]

I think you missed the point because the current consoles are already powerful enough to run with these type of graphics. They just don't have enough memory to do so in games.

Had they shipped with 32GB then we'd already be seeing much bigger differences between PS4 and PS5 games. Going from 8GB to 16GB was a pitiful increase and it's pretty telling that people still struggle to say if something counts as 'next gen'.

I'm guessing current consoles are powerful enough to run much better than what we have, just developers haven't caught up with tools and vice versa. Look at the Matrix demo. Look at the Nanite demo. I don't need to be tech savvy to look back at the Samaritan demo of 2011 and and see Arkham Knight 2015. I remember devs talked about how AC Unity pushed the PS4 and XB1 to the limit. I'm not hearing anything like that these days from devs. Nobody's talking about innovations anymore. All I hear is 60fps. We will get better graphics, but devs haven't even been trying and it's so obvious.

 

[PeteBull]

No. The PS5 alone has produced games that are not possible on last gen or PC. See Ratchet and Clank.

Maybe possible after all, we will be sure on 26th july so under 2 months from now, hopefully it will be gloriuous

 

[zeroluck]

This generation is about rendering the same games(museum tours with little interactivity) at 60 fps.

 

[Guilty_AI]

No. The PS5 alone has produced games that are not possible on last gen or PC. See Ratchet and Clank.

Maybe possible after all, we will be sure on 26th july so under 2 months from now, hopefully it will be gloriuous

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/will-r-c-rift-apart-pc-need-a-ssd-to-run-place-your-bets.1657189/

 

[thismeinteil]

This is part of the problem with having a mid-gen Pro console. A lot of official and fanmade videos are captured on it to show it's abilities, so when you get to the next gen finally in, the gap doesn't seem so big. I mean the gap going from Pro to PS5 is only ~2.5x, from XBOX to XBX is only ~2x.

I think this gen is going to be more about experimenting with, and mastering, the SSD tech and raytracing HW. More about pushing resolution, which includes overall resolution and that of the textures used. I personally got blown away by how improved the textures were in Spider-Man Remastered compared to the PS4 version. Or how sharp they look in games like Ratchet & Clank and Horizon Forbidden West. It makes you appreciate native 4K on a 4K TV.

Basically, this gen we are getting much improved PS4 games, with better resolutions, textures, and lighting. You're going to have to wait for next gen before we can have the higher resolution and better raytracing, while also pushing much higher draw distances and poly counts. Which even if next gen is only a 4x upgrade, that's still ~41 Tflops. That's A LOT of headroom to work with.

 

[ahtlas7]

I’ve certainly noticed an uptick in loading speed, texture, reflections, etc. I would love to see improvements in physics and destruction. Come on devs.

 

[OCASM]

"Playstation 5 marks the biggest generational transition our industry has yet seen."



From that to "expecting exclusive PS5 games to look better than cross-gen titles is delusional."

The gaslighting is real.

And for those making excuses about budgets:

EDIT: Better source:

"All in all, it took a team of over 20 employees more than a year to complete production on the demo."

The Matrix Awakens imagines the future of storytelling in Unreal Engine 5

Matrix movie veterans help bring Neo to virtual life for Epic Games

www.polygon.com

 

[Rippa]

Yup and for two reasons:

1. 40/60/120fps
2. Open World

The push for these sacrifices more and more bells and whistles graphically.

I can’t wait for Naughty Gods to come out with some eye melting true next-gen experience and have it be linear and run at 30fps.

 

[Jibran#one]

Where's the jump , Its only better load times and 60 fos on last gen titles.
Pretty sure the small handful of nextgen only games could've been done on last gen with 30 FPS.
Save us GTA 6

 

[CamHostage]

And for those making excuses about budgets:

EDIT: Better source:

"All in all, it took a team of over 20 employees more than a year to complete production on the demo."

The Matrix Awakens imagines the future of storytelling in Unreal Engine 5

Matrix movie veterans help bring Neo to virtual life for Epic Games

www.polygon.com

"20 employees"? Not sure how Polygon got that number (maybe only internal, dedicated Epic staff?), but between the asset design houses and the development assistance and the VFX houses and sound shops and such, it took almost 20 studios to make The Matrix Awakens.

The Matrix Awakens: An Unreal Engine 5 Experience - Thank you

Unreal Engine is the world’s most open and advanced real-time 3D creation platform for photoreal visuals and immersive experiences.

www.unrealengine.com

 

[daninthemix]

Visuals may have diminishing returns, but you don't think that the elimination of load times and a standardisation on 60fps aren't pretty hefty and worthwhile upgrades? Because I do.

 

[OCASM]

"20 employees"? Not sure how Polygon got that number (maybe only internal, dedicated Epic staff?), but between the asset design houses and the development assistance and the VFX houses and sound shops and such, it took almost 20 studios to make The Matrix Awakens.

The Matrix Awakens: An Unreal Engine 5 Experience - Thank you

Unreal Engine is the world’s most open and advanced real-time 3D creation platform for photoreal visuals and immersive experiences.

www.unrealengine.com

"Special thanks" doesn't mean those people actually did any work on the project.

 

[CamHostage]

"Special thanks" doesn't mean those people actually did any work on the project.

Oh, okay. So then, what happened is that Epic went to Airship Images and Animatrik Film Design and Aspiring Unicorn Games and The Coalition and Dekogon Studios and Evil Eye Pictures and Formosa Group and Halon Entertainment and Industrial Pixel VFX and Keywords Studios and Mimic Production and Mold3D and Superseed Studios and asked each of these companies, "Hey, do you all have one guy to spare? We have a team of 7 people making a Matrix project and need some help..."?

Official credits for The Matrix Awakens are not included in the product, but MobyGames has a report of the leads (who IMO are strangely not even included in the over 70 people on the "big thank-you" list. That's 15 people they dug up credits for there (plus the Pres of SideFX,) I assume they're the full-time staff of "20 employees" that Polygon is referring to.

The Matrix Awakens credits (Xbox Series, 2021) - MobyGames

The official game credits for The Matrix Awakens released on Xbox Series in 2021. The credits include 119 people.

www.mobygames.com

IMDB has a separate list of the filmmakers involved (who also do not seem to be on the thank-you list.)

The Matrix Awakens: An Unreal Engine 5 Experience (Video Game 2021) - IMDb

The Matrix Awakens: An Unreal Engine 5 Experience (Video Game 2021) cast and crew credits, including actors, actresses, directors, writers and more.

www.imdb.com

 

[OCASM]

Oh, okay. So then, what happened is that Epic went to Airship Images and Animatrik Film Design and Aspiring Unicorn Games and The Coalition and Dekogon Studios and Evil Eye Pictures and Formosa Group and Halon Entertainment and Industrial Pixel VFX and Keywords Studios and Mimic Production and Mold3D and Superseed Studios and asked each of these companies, "Hey, do you all have one guy to spare? We have a team of 7 people making a Matrix project and need some help..."?

Suppose all those people in fact worked on the project. Did they do so for the full duration of development or did they just contribute a patch or an asset here or there?

 

[Azurro]

It's because everyone started having a tantrum about 60fps being a must have.
All the extra power is funneled into that instead of everything else.

It's not going to make much of a difference, look at how games look between performance mode vs quality mode. It's usually barely noticeable and not enough to let go of 60 FPS.

 

[SeraphJan]

People are not giving themselves enough credit. If you play for 5 minutes you get used to it again.
Magic trick to limit fps even lower for few minutes and then put on 30fps cap hellos to reset your brain.
Again. That said if 30 fps lock is good and devs don’t have huge input lag

60fps warriors are going to tear me apart if I told them I deliberately play games at 30fps on my PC that is fully capable of playing almost every game at 60fps with max setting

For single player games, the extra input lag doesn't matter. 30fps will make me more adaptable when I switch to console

 

[buenoblue]

Woops

 

[Jimmy_liv]

It's not going to make much of a difference, look at how games look between performance mode vs quality mode. It's usually barely noticeable and not enough to let go of 60 FPS.

Yes because they're trying to aim for 60fps.

I mean, the hardware is literally doubling the work it has to do and so if devs were aiming for only 30fps there would be significant power left for other graphical enhancements.

 

[PeteBull]

If ps4 to ps5 jump was as big as ps1 to ps2 jump(so roughly 100x power increase), base ps5 would be about 7-8x stronger vs what we currently got in terms of gpu , u wouldnt have any doubts about next gen games/looks coz matrix demo and all other games would be running in 4k60fps with tons of power to spare for rt and additional bells and whistles.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Visuals may have diminishing returns, but you don't think that the elimination of load times and a standardisation on 60fps aren't pretty hefty and worthwhile upgrades? Because I do.

If 60 fps didn't come with the loss of fidelity we see in most games I would be much more content with this gen. I see some comments saying "there's barely a noticeable difference between 30 and 60" but I disagree. Most of the time playing at 60 feels like a major compromise.

 

[Azurro]

Yes because they're trying to aim for 60fps.

I mean, the hardware is literally doubling the work it has to do and so if devs were aiming for only 30fps there would be significant power left for other graphical enhancements.

I don't think you understand what you are asking for. The game, whether it's running at 30 FPS or 60 FPS has the same underlying technology. Now, if they add raytracing reflections, a little bit better AO and such, it won't make much of a difference since the underlying rendering pipeline is unchanged. 2x the rendering budget does not equal 2x the quality of the visuals.

Your claim maybe would be more plausible with something like Nanite and virtualized geometry, but remember, the Matrix demo was struggling to consistently have 30 FPS and did not have a real game running underneath.

The jump is just not all that great, not much new is possible at decent framerates and resolutions.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

60fps warriors are going to tear me apart if I told them I deliberately play games at 30fps on my PC that is fully capable of playing almost every game at 60fps with max setting

For single player games, the extra input lag doesn't matter. 30fps will make me more adaptable when I switch to console

Input lag between 30 and 60 is important esp in any type of shooter. Single player or not. Cyberpunk at 30 is a miserable experience for example. Even Last of Us 1 remake at 30 is rough. I can tolerate 40 fps tho

 

[DragoonWalker]

Visuals may have diminishing returns, but you don't think that the elimination of load times and a standardisation on 60fps aren't pretty hefty and worthwhile upgrades? Because I do.

these are quality of life upgrades, not mind blowing generational innovations I expect if I pay the full price for a new console.

 

[SeraphJan]

Input lag between 30 and 60 is important esp in any type of shooter. Single player or not. Cyberpunk at 30 is a miserable experience for example. Even Last of Us 1 remake at 30 is rough. I can tolerate 40 fps tho

16ms of difference to me is negligible for single player games

 

[OCASM]

Input lag between 30 and 60 is important esp in any type of shooter. Single player or not. Cyberpunk at 30 is a miserable experience for example. Even Last of Us 1 remake at 30 is rough. I can tolerate 40 fps tho

TBF modern 30fps are laggier than old school games due to the buffering and re-ordering of CPU instructions to increase performance. Ocarina running at 20fps on the N64 is more responsive than a modern 60fps game.

 

[UnNamed]

During the transition between PS1 and PS2 the difference between RRT4, a late PS1 game and RRV, an early PS2 game was abysmal.

Now we need a 400X lense to see differences between Spiderman on PS4 and Spiderman2 on PS5.

 

[RoboFu]

There is no real leap to be had. Maybe when raytracing gets mature enough but I think that will be a gradual thing not really a jump.

In all seriousness it’s going to take something like holographic projection to really give the same wow factor as going from nes to snes to PlayStation.

 

[Chinpoko_Master]

I would say so. We're still in the cross-gen period, but even the real next-gen looking stuff that has been shown looks like the smallest leap yet to me. There's also the fact that we had mid-gen upgrades last gen, which makes the generational jump look even smaller.

 

[OCASM]

There is no real leap to be had. Maybe when raytracing gets mature enough but I think that will be a gradual thing not really a jump.

In all seriousness it’s going to take something like holographic projection to really give the same wow factor as going from nes to snes to PlayStation.

No ray tracing was necessary for this:

 

[Kyo]

You couldn't enjoy a game at 30fps?

Yes. The choppy camera movement hurts my eyes, you can always tell when quality animation is being kept from achieving its full potential, and the controls are usually less responsive. Ratchet & Clank and Spider-Man were prime examples. I tried both at 30 fps and really disliked how they felt. And it was very obvious that the top notch animation work wasn't getting its due.

With slower games this was less of an issue, but even there (TLoU2 being one example that I played for several hours before stopping), the realization that I would very likely get to play these games at 60 fps in the future usually made me wait rather than settle for experiencing them at merely 30 fps.

In retrospect, it was one of the best gaming-related decisions I've made, as it provided me with a ton of de facto PS5 exclusives that still felt fresh to me.

 

[hinch7]

No ray tracing was necessary for this:

Thats not right. There's RT for reflections, shadows and ambient occlusion. Turn those Raytracing effects off and the demo's image quality falls apart, fast

 

[kevm3]

The problem is that we're not really 'seeing this generation' because the vast majority of this generation is cross gen. PS5, aside from a couple of games like Ratchet and Clank, is essentially being used like a PS4 Pro Plus.

The jump in graphics doesn't look that huge because we got a mid gen refresh during the PS4 generation and 98% of games are still developed to be able to support PS4.