Also, there are lots of Comics and books
but Id understand wanting to keep it Tv/movies only.
Enjoy Clone Wars and Rebels, and prepare for the best female character in the franchise
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LTTP: Star Wars Saga [Updated as I watch]
- Thread starter Ray Wonder
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Also, there are lots of Comics and books
but Id understand wanting to keep it Tv/movies only.
Enjoy Clone Wars and Rebels, and prepare for the best female character in the franchise
dragonyeuw
Member
Ray Wonder, do yourself a favor and watch the redlettermedia prequel reviews. You're over an hour, but IMO well worth your time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho16PDZGzDM
Warning: There's some twisted humor in there during the reviews, don't know if that's your thing, but the content focusing squarely on breaking down the prequels is golden.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho16PDZGzDM
Warning: There's some twisted humor in there during the reviews, don't know if that's your thing, but the content focusing squarely on breaking down the prequels is golden.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The fan inclination to deify Marcia Lucas is weird, to me. She's not the reason Star Wars is good. At least, not the sole, or even one of the main reasons. George divorcing his wife doesn't explain why the Prequels sucked, and it's a hell of a reach to even try going there.
Making Marcia Lucas the magic wand that you boop Star Wars on the nose with does a disservice to all the people who came together to make those movies, just as attributing everything to George is obnoxious and inaccurate, too.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Oh man what I would give for Force Awakens to blow the original trilogy out of the water. I don't see anything sacrilegious about that, I've already committed the Star Wars fanboy cardinal sin of not putting Empire at the top.
But I believe the prequels were much less of a collaborative effort than the OT.
George wrote, directed, and produced all of them.
Therein lies the problem.
What collaboration George had on the prequels really wasn't so much collaboration as it was people who either couldn't or wouldn't challenge him.
bengraven
Member
brandonh83
Banned
It's fine, you're not wrong.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Not disagreeing with that at all. When the director of your movie is also the writer of your movie is also the guy bankrolling the movie and is also the CEO of the company - you better hope that guy has really, REALLY good storytelling discipline, because at some point, he's going to just tell people to fuck off if he doesn't wanna do something.
I'm mostly disagreeing with the weird fan narrative that's been around for awhile (and hugely popularized by that Secret History of Star Wars bullshit) that it was really Marcia Lucas that was the main factor in Star Wars (and Empire's) quality. It's less about her actual skill as an Editor (which is very high) and more of a means to use Marcia Lucas as a way to diminish George Lucas as much as possible.
She becomes a retaliatory weapon in that narrative. It's not really complimentary.
brandonh83
Banned
You should just watch the Plinkett reviews.
Pointing out that someone made a major contribution doesn't automatically negate the hard work of others. Saying "Hey, that person did a great job" doesn't mean everyone else was terrible.
Having said that, I think someone who was deeply, personally involved with the person most responsible for the films, as well as technically involved in its production is nothing to sneeze at. I think one of the reasons Star Wars fans are so inclined to give Marcia Lucas a lot of credit is because she received so very little, not just the editing (by all accounts, she turned a horrible mess into the Trench Run that it is) but keeping George in check. It's hard not to draw those kind of conclusions when you read quotes from Lucas himself saying "I'm not a good writer. It's very, very hard for me. I don't feel I have a natural talent for it...When I sit down I bleed on the page, and it's just awful." and know that one of the few people he actually listened to was his wife.
Magic wand? No. But still a very important part of what made Star Wars what it was, and even though her presence probably wouldn't fix the Prequels, they would almost certainly be better.
Phantom Menace is a film I will never be able to shed my hatred for despite knowing that it likely isn't as bad as I think. Context is everything and what made me so bitter was that I saw it opening day as a young teen and I still remember the feeling of despair as I walked out of the theater. It was crushing, fuck my life kind of disappointing. It felt like a nightmare to a kid who at the time was a total Star Wars nerd in the midst of the most hyped movie in my life up to that point.
Seeing it today for the first time without a connection to the series I'd imagine I'd feel much the same way the OP does. But because of where I was in my life it pretty much turned me into just a casual fan of the series from there on out. To the point where I'll likely wait a week or 2 for the new one.
Seeing it today for the first time without a connection to the series I'd imagine I'd feel much the same way the OP does. But because of where I was in my life it pretty much turned me into just a casual fan of the series from there on out. To the point where I'll likely wait a week or 2 for the new one.
I think I am lucky in that I was like 9 when the prequels were coming out, and thought they were freaking awesome. I had already seen the original trilogy before the prequels, but I was at that ripe young age when I didn't rank stuff and was able to enjoy things despite the knowledge better things exist.
mariachi507
Member
Shit, guess I was way off on my "at least it looks like they're trying to hit each other" remark. Maybe it's just the way it was framed or edited because I don't notice it as bad as the next two prequels. Then again, one might be able to slow down all of the fights in the series and pick them apart.
The Xtortionist
Member
Watched all of these for the first time yesterday and it was incredible. Creepio's voice actor is fucking godlike.
God damn. Sounds like the PM really traumatised you. I think maybe you should watch it again just to expel the bad memories. Don't let the hate flow through you. Don't go to the dark side.
I like you.
Spieler Eins
Member
I already thought Ep 2 was super schmalzy and annoying when I was 12. Ep 1 I watched like as a 10 year old, yet unlike the OT, my nostalgia for that movie is incredibly limited, since there's just not much to love. Unless you count Star Wars Racing, whose demo we played in school over and over. I thought Ep 3 was good when it came out. The action was decent and especially flashy when it came out, but if it wasn't Star Wars, it would have easily been forgotten even as an action movie. Story and writing is obviously still shit.
OT is still great. RotJ already had some blatant problems before it was hit hardest by the special editions, but even in that, the throne room scene alone is better than anything in the new films.
Flynning is a staple of movie sword-fighting. It's used in the OT too, and is noticeable in a few scenes like Luke bashing on Vader's saber when he's lying against the rail in the final fight of Return of the Jedi.
The goal of acting out a fight scene is to have the actors try not to hit each other while looking like they are trying to hit each other.
mariachi507
Member
This, the twisted humor may be hit or miss for your, but the reviews stand as a very good critical breakdown of the prequels. You don't have to agree with all of his points but it is still worth many viewings. There is a reason why these reviews are brought up so often, I enjoyed them more than the films that are being reviewed.
I feel like you just need to let yourself be "dumb" for a little while to enjoy the prequels. Sure, your not going to have your mind blown, or have some life changing experience, but if you let yourself be a kid again you might end up having fun. Even though present me knows the movies aren't good, I still enjoy them because I know 10 year old me would have really liked them. I'm weird, I know.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
But that's the narrative I'm talking about. I'm not saying people shouldn't note that Marcia Lucas (along with Richard Chew and Paul Hirsch) worked wonders on Star Wars, and that she absolutely helped George Lucas with advice and such over the course of that film's creation. Hell, she got an Oscar for that movie. George didn't.
So I'm not saying she wasn't an important part. She was. What I'm saying is that your post I responded to, and the link you posted to support it, inherently push that narrative. She is singled out as a means to explain why the Prequels don't work, and why Lucas' contributions should be devalued to some extent. That's the whole point. Otherwise people would just (as they've done for a long time now) note that Star Wars blew up the way it did because of the number of very creative, very thoughtful minds that all came together and collaborated brilliantly together. The editing crew, the DP, Dykstra & ILM, so on and so forth.
So yeah, it automatically does denigrate the hard work of others. That it happens as collateral in the pursuit of specifically trying to denigrate Lucas maybe wasn't specifically intended, but it is one of the effects of that narrative. Pushing that narrative minimizes why the films actually did succeed as a means to elevate her over George for purposes that don't even necessarily have anything to do with film analysis, as evidenced by the idea that her presence would have made the Prequels better, which is highly doubtful. If anything, that's absolutely suggesting she's some sort of magic wand. It's not as if her sole presence is going to mitigate the effect of 20+ years between directing jobs, not to mention the effect those 20+ years had on him as a person.
It's a bad answer to a question that already has a lot of well-cited, well-analyzed answers. The answer to "Why are the prequels not good" isn't "Marcia Lucas wasn't there."
kopitarrulez_11
Member
So im assuming you'll be walking into 7 the same way cause I know I will be
Warm Machine
Member
The responsibility of the entire movie lands on the lap of the director. People can point to Marcia or Gary or Ralph Mcquarrie or whoever but end of the day is that George Lucas hired the right people,
cast the film, organized the production, shot the footage and listened to advice while making a million other decisions that got the movie made. No one forced him to do anything he didn't want to. Marcia didn't shoot the material she edited and you can only cut together what you have. Really, every movie has the director in the editing room.
cast the film, organized the production, shot the footage and listened to advice while making a million other decisions that got the movie made. No one forced him to do anything he didn't want to. Marcia didn't shoot the material she edited and you can only cut together what you have. Really, every movie has the director in the editing room.
LookAtMeGo
Member
Hey Ray! Are you more or less excited for The Force Awakens at this point?
In my opinion, the biggest issues with the Prequels are the bad writing, bad dialogue and boring editing of anything that isn't a special effect, and those are all three areas where her contributions are pretty well documented.
But it's an answer, and a fairly important one in my opinion, and a pretty good place to start. I mean, it's not like the "Secret History of Star Wars" book is pulling those quotes from thin air.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Were. Almost 40 years ago isn't now. Again, you can't just boop Star Wars on the nose with some Marcia Lucas and make it all better. That's not how it works. That's not how STAR WARS worked.
Not really, no.
Generic Power Ranger
Member
The biggest issue with revenge of the sith, and one that ruined a lot of the movie for me, was that he went from a decently good guy, to ok I'll join the bad guys, to next time you see him, is on a video feed, killing younglings.. WHAT. If they had left that part out, it could have been a little little liitle bit believable, but that right there just ruins it for me. Makes no sense for him to escalate directly to that.
Chasing that Sith dragon.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
Thank you Ray Wonder for sharing this experience with us. Thoroughly enjoyed reading the thread, and also very much enjoyed your refreshingly non-cynical perspective on the entire series.
Didn't know there were good, thorough answers to this question available online. For some reason I believed critical thought had been mostly dedicated to answering "In what ways where the prequels not good?". Could you link some noteworthy pieces?
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Waaaay more excited, multitudes more. Like, I'm probably gonna buy an RC BB8 or R2 lol.
Is there a particular element you're most curious about/looking forward to going forward now? Like now that you've taken it in and gotten context and everything, is there stuff you're like "okay, I want more of that! I wanna see where that goes..."?
Also, now that about 99% of the Expanded Universe has been retconned out of existence, any interest in exploring any of that stuff?
The Attack of the Podcast dedicates an episode to one very solid theory of why the prequels are so bad and basically out of anyone's control: They pushed the limits on all fronts in terms of special effects and digital filmmaking, further than they could manage with reasonable resource use, and so the demands of digital and CGI-loaded filmmaking took all the focus and effort. The "storyboards" were largerly controlled by the special effects guys who had to plan out every scene in detail, there was no space for human creativity from the actors or Lucas or anyone else. A stiff thing with no emotional resonence was the only possible result, and the crappy dialogue and convoluted, dry plots came on top as a bonus.
My friends to this day give me shit for saying 'finally, a good Star Wars!' after watching III, considering how my feelings changed after i've cooled down a bit of the excitement.
III was dissapointing, to say the least.
You can see all the way through that the actors, especially Portman and McGregor, don't really care anymore. The angry Anakin vs Amidala dialogue near the end had for me the worst acting there is in Star Wars.
The big fight was great, until the end: it was so abrupt and badly constructed, with a blurred jump. And Obi-Wan, the great, noble Jedi, looks while his limbless friend combusts in flames, and leaves him there to die in agony. He just wants his friend to suffer? There were so many ways they could have done that scene differently, Anakin could have fallen to far or something, but no Obi just stands there few meters away and goes away. Stone cold, Obi-Wan.
And Amidala just dies. From sadness. Really? She was ok a second ago, what happened?
And then the Comical Noooooo, that's still a meme to this day.
I kinda like I, II is terrible, but III had so much potential and wasted almost all of it.
III was dissapointing, to say the least.
You can see all the way through that the actors, especially Portman and McGregor, don't really care anymore. The angry Anakin vs Amidala dialogue near the end had for me the worst acting there is in Star Wars.
The big fight was great, until the end: it was so abrupt and badly constructed, with a blurred jump. And Obi-Wan, the great, noble Jedi, looks while his limbless friend combusts in flames, and leaves him there to die in agony. He just wants his friend to suffer? There were so many ways they could have done that scene differently, Anakin could have fallen to far or something, but no Obi just stands there few meters away and goes away. Stone cold, Obi-Wan.
And Amidala just dies. From sadness. Really? She was ok a second ago, what happened?
And then the Comical Noooooo, that's still a meme to this day.
I kinda like I, II is terrible, but III had so much potential and wasted almost all of it.
Writing was really bad all the way through. The movies looked like they were made out of first rushed drafts, and that's probably true since they had to start special effects production very early on.
RobbieNick
Junior Member
I'm with you. Despite some faults, it's the best in the prequel trilogy and has many memorable scenes.
In a way Revenge of the Sith is a mirror image to Return of the Jedi. Besides the titles being purposely similar, ROTJ was considered by many to be the worst of the original trilogy while ROTS is considered the best of the prequels. ROTJ ends with the happiest ending possible while ROTS ends with the worst thing that could happen. ROTS has Anakin turn to the dark side and become Darth Vader while ROTJ has Anakin save Luke and redeem himself. Outside of those opposites, both seem to have the most action and adventure of their respective trilogies.
It's like poetry
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Honestly I'm not really looking into getting into the non canon. There's just so much out there it's a bit overwhelming. Maybe in the far future, but as for right now I'm going to avoid it.
I'm just looking forward to a new story, and seeing the OT crew get back together. I'm excited to see if the Jedi will ever replenish their numbers, and bring balance back to the damn universe! And to see the new sith. Isn't there always supposed to be two? The master and the apprentice?
Yeah that Sith rule always seemed odd, especially considering how many 'Sith' there are in the fiction at any given time. But I suppose it could mean multiple things... That you can't have one without the other. Also who is to say these new guys are actual 'Sith'? I mean you can be a dark jedi doing tons of evil shit, but that doesn't inherently make you 'Sith'. It's kind of its own specific special thing. There's a title, there are traditions, etc. that go beyond just being an evil Jedi.
dragonyeuw
Member
The interesting thing about the 'high ground' ending, is that it was how the Maul-Obiwan fight should have ended. As Obi was force-leaping out of the pit, Maul should have cut him down as he was leaping over him, the same way Obi-wan did it to Anakin. And Maul had even more of a 'high-ground' advantage, so it's funny that Lucas wrote the ending to Anakin-Obi-wan in a way that completely ignores the internal logic he established earlier in the PT.
I also hated how Anakin lost his arm to Dooku, there was a very obvious pause and opening that Ray Charles could have exploited. Really, all the fights had moments as if Lucas had no plausible way to get from A to B. He didn't seem to have a way for Obi-wan to 'cleanly' beat Anakin by out-dueling him in saber combat, so he created a 'high ground scenario' where Anakin( even as arrogant as he had become) should have known not to attempt.
Overall, everyone seems to prefer to style of the prequel fights, aesthetically they were more advanced but in the OT, the sabers were handled like they actually had a weight behind them, and you were 'hacking' at your opponent instead of the feathery handling of the Jedi/Sith in the PT.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
I much prefer the PT style. It just flows so sick. Like 1950s NFL to 2015 NFL. It's finesse now, when it was brute force back then.
I much prefer the PT style. It just flows so sick. Like 1950s NFL to 2015 NFL. It's finesse now, when it was brute force back then.
They kind of overdid it in the PT, especially with Yoda. But I guess they had to do something considering his small size.
Here's hoping JJ found a nice middle ground between the PT style and the OT style with EP7.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
Which really makes no sense at all, they're small pieces of (what is no doubt) lightweight metal that emit energy, there really shouldn't be any weight to them.
I much prefer the PT style. It just flows so sick. Like 1950s NFL to 2015 NFL. It's finesse now, when it was brute force back then.
It looks like they are dancing, not fighting.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
They're in tune with the force, they can sense the future and react to it before it happens. They should be able to fight as if it's a choreographed dance.
dragonyeuw
Member
I much prefer the PT style. It just flows so sick. Like 1950s NFL to 2015 NFL. It's finesse now, when it was brute force back then.
But see, for me there-in lies the problem. Dooku-Yoda looks less like a fight, and more like a pre-arranged dance( which it is but it's not supposed to look this way in the movie). Which was a problem for most of the prequel saber duels. The fact that most of the fights don't have the same personal stakes behind them exasperates the problem.
This, to me, is still my favorite saber duel moment, the culmination of everything that had been perfectly building to that point. It had the organic feel of a real fight, Luke's anger in the moment overwhelming Vader who we see vulnerable for the first time, the haunting music in the background. If this scene had been done by Lucas ten years ago, it would have occurred with Luke and Vader surfing over a flowing lava lake or some other over the top environment.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
The idea of having the abilities of a Jedi should allow it be that way though. That's what I thought about it.
I agree this fight was the most tense I was throughout the entire series, it felt like it meant the most. That's why I put RotJ as number one.
dragonyeuw
Member
It lacks punch and emotional impact. Look at Luke's first fight with Vader, where he's clearly struggling and Vader is toying with him. That adds an extra layer of tension because we know Luke is over his head. Where's the drama in 2 force masters so attuned that their fight comes off like a dance, and not like two people actually trying to kill each other.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
I do think it could be toned down a bit. I agree with striking a middle ground between PT and OT.
What I like most about that fight scene is how Luke completely loses all his composure and just starts wildly and haphazardly swinging away in a fit of pure rage. He's not trying to do some overly elaborate stunt routine he's trying to viciously murder a dude as he's blinded by hate. It feels emotionally real and that emotion is transferred into the fight itself. All training goes out the window at that point and it's great.
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