Psycho_Mantis
Banned
E3 may give us a hint on what Nintendo thinks of future WiiU development.
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Media Create Sales: Week 17, 2015 (Apr 20 - Apr 26)
- Thread starter Chris1964
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E3 may give us a hint on what Nintendo thinks of future WiiU development.
theprodigy
Member
Retro Studios went from making Metroid Prime games which were unique and added diversity and value to Nintendo's console line-up, to making assets for Mario Kart and developing Donkey Kong Country games which simply enhance Nintendo's existing core line-up.
Brownie Brown went from making 2D RPGs like Magical Vacation and Mother 3 which added diversity and value to Nintendo's portable line-up, to making assets for existing first party Nintendo games.
Honne at Monolithsoft went from making unique RPGs like Baten Kaitos which added diversity and value to Nintendo's console line-up, to leading a new Monolithsoft studio in Kyoto which makes assets for existing first party Nintendo games.
I dunno, the evidence speaks for itself I think. If you really believe that Nintendo is completely immune to making business decisions first before creative decisions, I don't know what to say.
And of the games you listed, only one got a sequel. I have no idea how well (or poorly) Xenoblade did on the Wii. We know: its Japanese numbers, it did better in the West, and that it was an unlisted game in America on NPD tracking because it was retailer exclusive. That makes it very hard to gauge how well or mediocre it did.
That's not to say I'd expect Xenoblade to continue as a franchise. But I'd be sort of dubious of Nintendo restructuring one of their newest development studios into a full asset studio after one big budget game underperformed as an exclusive on Nintendo's worst selling console.
No, that's actually a good point. After all, XCX was one of the games showcased during the January 2013 Direct, and development seem to have started right after Xenoblade Chronicles came out.
But the thing is, the Wii U has been selling poorly for a long while, so it's pretty much guaranteed they revised their expectations (budget too?) since then (several times too).
So they must have been aware for a while that XCX wasn't going to earn them as much money as they initially hoped*... so if they haven't changed anything (like scope of the game), it's probably that the game has a different kind of "value"... Something similar to what Iwata was referring to when he said he wanted to make games to show that the Wii U wasn't underpowered.
* Not saying Nintendo is/will be bleeding money because of XCX or anything (I actually have no idea of the budget for the game).
I'm not suggesting that they will be completely restructured to an asset studio. I'm pointing out Nintendo has shifted tracks with developers they own before. So if there comes a day where they want to keep Monolithsoft open but not as a RPG studio in particular, I would not be completely surprised. It would be disappointing, but not surprising.
Retro burned out on making Metroid, and they wanted to make a DK game. I don't think this is indicative, and the Primes didn't bomb. They sold progressively less but it was still a million+ seller. Did they really have a 40+ million dollar budget for a Wii game built on a pre-existing engine and assets? Unless there was some crazy extravagant spending, I don't know how the title couldn't have broken even.
I don't see Monolith getting re-purposed over one title on the WiiU.
I don't think any one is arguing that Nintendo will throw money to the wind, we're obviously not going to see a S&P3, for example, but I don't think what we're seeing on XCX at the moment is enough information to draw a conclusion. I'll reference the recent Iwata Asks on the titles (X3D and XCX), they were surprised by the title's successes in the west not the east. And XCX is performing ~close~ to Xenoblade and they didn't ship 500k units for this expecting some sort of earth shattering success. (I also don't think this game has value for them purely in the "did we get returns", that's not the impression I got from the interviews from the IA as mentioned previously. They'e known for years what the budget was vs. their sales trajectory, either they adjusted or that wasn't the main concern for them.)
If XCX does really get positioned as one of the big holiday titles for the WiiU in the west, I wouldn't be surprised if it did relatively (to the WiiU) well. Well enough for the franchise to survive and continue being made in the future. Moreover, the next handheld may well see the title ported over since XCX isn't exactly pushing any envelopes. A suitably powerful handheld would run this game well enough on a lower resolution.
I also don't think this game actually cost "that much".
Yes, they have. I just don't think Xenoblade Chronicles X will be the game that does it.
Who knows. Maybe it'll do fine in the West! Apparently the first did okay here, even though we have no idea what number to ascribe to said point of Iwata's.
I don't think XCX will be the game to do it either. I'm talking longer term, especially with an eye on what Nintendo does next in terms of hardware. I just don't think people should feel that just because a studio Nintendo owns specializes in a genre which they lack, that it is a security for them to continue making that forever. So far Monolithsoft has released zero big hits for Nintendo out of the 5 games they've made (Baten Kaitos 2, Disaster, Soma Bringer, Xenoblade, Xenoblade X). If this continues for another game or two, who knows what will happen. The games sure aren't getting cheaper to develop.
Didn't a bunch of prime vets leave the studio though? I'm sure i read somewhere that some went to 343 and helped make Halo 4 (which is way it looks prime-ish).
Yes, a lot of the creative headstaff (Pacini for example) from Metroid left. And Kelbaugh wanted to make a DK game, which led to us getting Returns and then, later, Tropical Freeze. Returns sold ~5 million units, more or less three times that of Prime 3, but it was also built from scratch.
I don't think there's anything to indicate that they stopped making Metroid because it was losing money or anything, and just that they lost the talent interested in making it.
Also, I think people misunderstand the angle I'm seeing this from. It's not about "Xenoblade costs so much that it's making Nintendo lose money". Not at all. The games are probably profitable, especially with the inflated retail prices in Japan. The point is that they're not huge hits. If takes tons of manpower to make a game which sells 100-200k, but that same manpower can be diverted to making something which sells several times more, that's something any company will consider carefully. With games requiring more and more resources to make, Nintendo has clearly struggled to keep up in terms of having the manpower to internally create as many things as they want, even those under their marquee brands. If there comes a day where they want to make a console Super Mario RPG (not Paper Mario), or a Zelda RPG, and Monolithsoft is a candidate, I think it's a no brainer for the company to choose between making that or making another original Monolithsoft RPG. As a fan of the studio, that is my biggest concern.
Eolz
Member
Of course. And we can see that more recent titles aren't probably a big financial risk for them (or at least not as big). They're definitely slowing down, but the point is that we may still get some big announcements at E3 despite the WiiU being an utter failure.
I partly disagree. That's my point: Nintendo is making business decisions first, but while trying to allow creative decisions as much as possible.
Retro did an excellent Donkey Kong reboot and Monolithsoft is still doing big games. Brownie Brown is certainly a special case though, but there was probably a reason for this to happen (creative problems, small studio, etc). But this doesn't mean collaborations are something bad. This can also allow studios to show what they are capable of and give them chances to pitch concepts (which might very well already happen backstage).
I think I at least understood you, I think my concern is more that we're looking at this a little too black-and-white in terms of just the "units sold" angle. Monolith has been working with EAD for engine/graphical support since they were bought, so I think their value isn't just in their library offerings for the company. Streaming technology and world building tools used in XCX will (likely) be used heavily in Zelda.
Zelda will sell millions.
Does that not give Monolith's development of a game which in turn develops multiple tools for the system as a whole that will go on to be used elsewhere, justifiable purpose? Obviously, if the game W101s at the box-office, it doesn't but I don't think we're going to see anywhere near there. I think of their development here, effectively, as a "launch game" sort of sense in that its testing and working out something that Nintendo as a company hasn't actually ever done before. Huge sprawling worlds? That's new. All of a sudden, too, we have a "huge sprawling" Zelda game on the horizon. XCX is almost like a trial run at the whole thing.
I also don't disagree that we may well end up seeing Monolith make a more traditional game for Nintendo, that is, using Nintendo's IP, but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that was by choice. Not some sort of mandate.
Oh, I guess I got the chronology wrong. I thought they left after/during the time they turned into a DK house- suggesting they weren't eager to make a 2d platformer.
Far as I am aware, they'd (Mark Pacini, Todd Keller, and Jack Mathews) planned their departure long before DKCR came about as even being a planned game. They formed a studio shortly after so this wasn't some sort of knee-jerk reaction.
Eolz
Member
Missed some quotes when I wrote my first post, sorry about that
I think any reasonable person agree about that. It can happen to every studio belonging to a publisher sadly. But Monolith is also, so far, a "one game per gen" studio. Which might make them look different in the eyes of Nintendo. I don't think their future will change too much, but rather like some people already said, make them get different management and scope focus. Their next game might not be online for example.
Your concern is probably shared by many people here, but I'm sure (in my mind) that Nintendo also chose to (finally according to some) pursue other/parallel financial opportunities to allow that "statu quo" to continue. As said before, DLC/Amiibos/Mobile/partnerships are made to allow them to keep that creative freedom.
The current Nintendo also seems to be a lot more open once again to collaborating with other studios on some franchises, so I don't think this would be their first choice for a Zelda RPG for example, whereas they could use Monolith to create and/or grow other IPs, while still collaborating and using their talent on those other games (like Project X Zone for example).
I think any reasonable person agree about that. It can happen to every studio belonging to a publisher sadly. But Monolith is also, so far, a "one game per gen" studio. Which might make them look different in the eyes of Nintendo. I don't think their future will change too much, but rather like some people already said, make them get different management and scope focus. Their next game might not be online for example.
Your concern is probably shared by many people here, but I'm sure (in my mind) that Nintendo also chose to (finally according to some) pursue other/parallel financial opportunities to allow that "statu quo" to continue. As said before, DLC/Amiibos/Mobile/partnerships are made to allow them to keep that creative freedom.
The current Nintendo also seems to be a lot more open once again to collaborating with other studios on some franchises, so I don't think this would be their first choice for a Zelda RPG for example, whereas they could use Monolith to create and/or grow other IPs, while still collaborating and using their talent on those other games (like Project X Zone for example).
Pennywise83
Banned
Intelligent Systems went from making Fire Emblem and Paper Mario to make more Fire Emblem, and new IPs such as a steam-punk Saturday morning cartoon-inspired sRPG and digital puzzle game with a cub character Pullblox.
Nintendo EAD 2 went from making Wii branded games such as Music and Play to make Nintendo Land and new IP shooter Splatoon, basically one of the genres Nintendo never developed internally.
Nintendo EAD 5 went from making Wii Fit to make a new IP, Steel Diver, which was converted into the first F2P Nintendo game, and three new Miyamoto projects (Project Guard, Project Giant Robot and Star Fox).
Also, Mother 4 is not happening because of Itoi more than financial issues; Mother 3 sold really well, as well as the collection of the first two. As far as we know, Earthbound on Western Virtual Consoles also sold quite ok.
Nintendo EAD 2 went from making Wii branded games such as Music and Play to make Nintendo Land and new IP shooter Splatoon, basically one of the genres Nintendo never developed internally.
Nintendo EAD 5 went from making Wii Fit to make a new IP, Steel Diver, which was converted into the first F2P Nintendo game, and three new Miyamoto projects (Project Guard, Project Giant Robot and Star Fox).
Also, Mother 4 is not happening because of Itoi more than financial issues; Mother 3 sold really well, as well as the collection of the first two. As far as we know, Earthbound on Western Virtual Consoles also sold quite ok.
I think the big difference between these and things like Xenoblade and Metroid Prime is that they're notably smaller titles in scope except perhaps Splatoon which is an attempt at a very popular genre Nintendo is lacking in.
Like if Splatoon does rather low volume are we all that likely to see countless entries in the series? On top of that it was originally conceived as a Mario title which was a risk hedge while getting it off the ground.
But in general I don't think Nintendo is opposed to risks so much as continuing indefinitely with risks that have gained little reward. I'm not expecting a sequel to Codename STEAM and am expecting them to work on another project instead be it an existing or new IP.
I wouldn't be surprised if MonolithSoft's next game was a handheld.
You're definitely right about their games released so far, though I would be wary to ascribe "failure" to Xenoblade X since it's been out for a week in the place where it performed worst (I don't actually expect it to light the charts on fire in the West, but it feels premature to dance on its grave).
You're definitely right about their games released so far, though I would be wary to ascribe "failure" to Xenoblade X since it's been out for a week in the place where it performed worst (I don't actually expect it to light the charts on fire in the West, but it feels premature to dance on its grave).
Well, Monolith Soft has been helping in some of Nintendo's projects ever since, from Smash Brawl and Skyward Sword on the Wii days to Animal Crossing: New Leaf and A Link Between Worlds for 3DS. Plus a part of that team was involved in side projects like Project X Zone, a Dragon Ball game and a Super Robot Taisen game. That didn't stop them from developing new titles of their own, which are Disaster: Day of Crisis, Soma Bringer, Xenoblade and Xenoblade X.
I would be
Disaster and Soma Bringer were made after Xenosaga Episode III, before Xenoblade. Skyward Sword was between Xenoblade and Xenoblade X. Dragonball Z was led by Honne, who is now head of Monolithsoft Kyoto. Animal Crossing and ALBW was Monolithsoft Kyoto. SRW OG Saga and Project X Zone are by a single team which was formed originally to make Namco x Capcom.
Monolithsoft Kyoto not making their own games means we no longer get games like Baten Kaitos and Dragonball Z. Resources being put towards Skyward Sword after Xenoblade could instead have been used to make another smaller original handheld title like Soma Bringer.
So yes, Nintendo appropriating resources to help with their games does have a direct impact on Monolithsoft's output. After Nintendo bought Monolithsoft, they were still able to develop Disaster, Soma Bringer, SRW OG Saga, and Dragonball Z all at the same time. 1 console title, 3 handheld titles. But after they started helping with Nintendo games, they're only able to work on one console game and one Project X Zone game at a time.
Project X Zone 2?
theprodigy
Member
The first game doing better in "the west", which is such a large region that it better have, doesn't say much by itself.
Though it did decently enough in France at least, the only other country that actually has sales figures for the game.
Are nintendo's internal studios as rigid as that? I assumed they were fairly nebulous.
Isn't this fairly normal when you consider increasing dev costs (in money, time, and manpower)? The 1+3 was at the time of Wii/DS, 1+1 is now the WiiU/3DS, and helping to cross-develop project isn't exactly "not producing a game", they are still working on getting games done just as part of a collective.
This seems fairly normal for the times.
2DS does not exist in JP. and i believe 3DSLL have been stop it's production?
There's no 2DS in Japan, but yes you can see the split below.
Eolz
Member
They don't really "need to" given how poorly the other consoles are doing and how many 3DS they sold LTD, but should.
Right, which is why I qualified that saying that we actually have no numbers, so that's all sort of whatever.
Weirdly enough, the first Baten Kaitos actually performed the best (relatively) in France, but Baten Kaitos Origins never got a European release.
Pennywise83
Banned
Of course, and that is why the debate is a bit pointless in my opinion. Monolith Soft. was developing more handheld games back then because it was cheaper AND faster to do so; Monolith Soft also always developed games that did not sell well; XBX will likely be their best-selling game since they are under Nintendo.
Nintendo, as a company, obviously gives priority to all top IPs, and that has always been the case. That is why there are dead series such as F-Zero, Chibi-Robo, and so on.
Let me spell it out for you. Before Monolithsoft Kyoto, we got stuff like this from Yasuyuki Honne:
After Monolithsoft Kyoto, this is what we get from Yasuyuki Honne:
Going by Dengeki Samurai Warriors 4-II initial shipment was 137k, it dropped out of top 50 at 130k, probably no need for further shipments. It sold a further 9k digitally first month according to Famitsu, so ~150k for Japan leaves ~30k for Asia, about 20% of Japanese sales.
Atelier Shallie initial shipment was 65k, it dropped out of top 50 at 63k, probably no need for further shipments. It sold a further 2.5k digitally first month, so ~68k for Japan and ~12k for Asia, about 18% of Japanese sales.
Those percentages are in the same region that I've seen for other PS3 Asian software shipments on the rare occasion that we get them. Maybe it will rise with PS4.
An office?
And plz Duckroll, we all know another Baten Kaitos is riiiiight around the corner.
Oh god Monolith you must live please
An office?
Yes. He manages Monolithsoft Kyoto now instead of producing/directing/art directing games.
Yes. He manages Monolithsoft Kyoto now instead of producing/directing/art directing games.
I was just teasing (and knew this), but
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
no need to be so blunt ;___;
GhostTrick
Banned
Stop it. It hurts. I'm sorry I ever brought this up. It's my fault!
Eh, see the good thing: If Nintendo does things right (yikes) and unify their platforms, Monolith Soft Kyoto may have more time to work on their own titles.
Pennywise83
Banned
There were times where one could have said that Honne was not working on anything relevant (e.g. as a producer or director). After Baten Kaitos Origins, for example, since Dragon Ball was announced two years after the former had been released. There was a two-year gap between the first Baten Kaitos and the second one as well.
You must have faith, young padawan.
Yes. He manages Monolithsoft Kyoto now instead of producing/directing/art directing games.
So what do we do when at E3 they announce a game he headed for the 3DS?
But still, I know your point with regards to your previous post, but I still don't think we can really just talk about raw throughput as development times and budgets are naturally increasing for various reasons. I understand that his talents aren't being put to what he once did and did well, but times change. I'd love to see Sakaguchi actually make TerraBattle or a new RPG for handhelds/consoles but I will likely be holding my breathe for a long time. At least Honne has a secure job.
It has been 6 years since Dragon Ball Z, and we actually -know- what he has been doing since then. There have been interviews and media coverage of Monolithsoft Kyoto. That's what hurts the most.
Stop it. It hurts. I'm sorry I ever brought this up. It's my fault!
At least Koh Kojima is still working. He's the one that took the bland mess that was the Baten Kaitos cast and gave us Milly, Sagi, and Guillo, while simultaneously using BKO to make the cast of the first Baten Kaitos Origins more interesting by design.
Oh my god I'm really sad now.
Ooh. Can you point me towards said interviews?