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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Darius87

Member
I think the order is audio / shadows / reflections / GI / full. I think bounce lighting is fairly expensive(?).
no i think you mistaking GI with normal indoor lightning because GI only requires 1 bounce and indoor lightning requires more then 1 bounce so indoor lightning is much more expensive then GI but there isn't indoor lightning mentioned in diagram so cerny is right of course.
 
wrong again master sensei. unless you see things in reverse.
Road-to-PS5-6.jpg

I really thought about this and I ponder how Cerny is weighing this up. Is he measuring this per pixel on the screen? Meaning does this mean that reflections > shadows all things equal? I think that's what it may mean. Because GI is supposed to be more expensive in its implementation.
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
wrong again master sensei. unless you see things in reverse.
Road-to-PS5-6.jpg

Darius87 Darius87 - Just because it shows what can be done doesn't mean it has the power to do them. It will depend on the scope of the game. Ray-tracing means you can do any of those things involved. But the GPU will suffer. Period. Nothing is for free.
 

Darius87

Member
Ok. I'm going to tell you this and you can take it or leave it. Your choice.

You stating that it subjectively looks better and then assuming that a brand new graphics engine was made in order to make it look better subjectively is about the weakest argument I've ever heard. It shows your extreme bias to want to "MAKE" the game look next-gen just because that's what YOU want.

We can't have a conversation if that's your stance. Graphics engines aren't built all over again just because a new piece of hardware comes onto the scene. You must remember that the tech you are seeing in the next-gen consoles isn't new at all. They have been around for years on the PC from AMD/Nvidia graphics cards. The ONLY claim to new tech hardware is the SSD and it's subsystems. There is literally NO new tech in the GPU end of things. Consoles will ALWAYS be the lowest common denominator concerning graphics tech. You just need to get over in your head that everything Sony makes doesn't mean the latest and greatest in technology in a mere $500 box.
1) There's nothing subjective about HFB visuals any person who can see clearly and have no bias could say it looks better then HZD.
2) I didn't say guerrilla have to make new engine it's newest version of decima engine but it's not the same on which HZD was made. it's much more evolved even Kojima team made advancements on Decima engine.
3) There's no need to be new tech in GPU's for what we arguing, current tech features are scalable like samples in motion blur, amount of rays and bounces in RT, resolution in shadows an so on...

Having said that, HZD looks damn near 100% like HFW. I observe all the shaders, lighting, and geometry. There is literally nothing in HFW that shows it can't be implemented on a PS4 Pro. The only thing we can't see is the SCOPE of the game design for the sequel. That could very well mean it can't run on last-gen. But it's NOT going to be graphics implementations. At least not from the small cinematic that we've seen - which is ALL we can go by.

:messenger_grinning_smiling: go tell that to Guerrilla or any dev and try to not make fool of yourself then comeback here let us know how it go.
 

VFXVeteran

Banned
1) There's nothing subjective about HFB visuals any person who can see clearly and have no bias could say it looks better then HZD.

Any person? But yet none spoke up when I presented the analysis. Why is that?

2) I didn't say guerrilla have to make new engine it's newest version of decima engine but it's not the same on which HZD was made. it's much more evolved even Kojima team made advancements on Decima engine.

How would you know what's in the Decima engine that's different? Do you work for GG? You speak like you work there.

3) There's no need to be new tech in GPU's for what we arguing, current tech features are scalable like samples in motion blur, amount of rays and bounces in RT, resolution in shadows an so on...

So what's the argument dude? You are talking about a mid-to-low tier graphics processor in the PS5 being able to do what better than current gen besides ray-tracing? Like what?

:messenger_grinning_smiling: go tell that to Guerrilla or any dev and try to not make fool of yourself then comeback here let us know how it go.

Again, you saw a cinematic demo and immediately stated "GG has enhanced their graphics engine to run this cinematic!! I don't know what they did but it just "looks" better to me! Enough of a difference to claim "next-gen"!! "
 

DaGwaphics

Member
This is a pet peeve of mine too.

It's so bizarre in this case, because a proper informative graph would have been such a huge victory for the PS5 anyway. The tallest bar on the Xbox side would be barely taller than the raw throughput of the PS5, no lies needed to sell this feature with the numbers that have been released so far. When information is presented in such a poor way, it kills the credibility.
 

Ptarmiganx2

Member
I think there might be another twist in all this yet.

I mean on one hand, ok you can say MS are just incompetent. Personally I don’t believe that.

Yet MS are in this weird position now so something has led them to this point. If it’s not incompetence then it’s other factors.

Those other factors will have affected Sony too - perhaps even to a similar extent.

So yeah - I’m bracing myself for the possibility of more negative news but from Sony this time ...

I think they have provided plenty of examples: the RROD, skipping an entire generation to prepare for the next only to have nothing to show, and changing the narrative constantly to whatever Sony is doing ”look we have almost no load times and can stream assets 10x faster the our hardware limitations with mega X velocity architecture 2.0”. Sony botched the PS3 release, but after that it’s been smooth sailing. Everything we have heard contradicts your assumption that Sony will have a letdown. The dev kits are refined (as numerous programmers have confirmed), Sony has a major collaboration with UE5, and Sony’s studios are geographically diverse.
 
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VFXVeteran

Banned
tenor.gif


again you said reflections is least expensive of RT features


clearly is not.


So are you looking at the order in that list and thinking that's a list of how complex each of the RT features is? He even says in that talk that he saw a game using RT reflections with only "modest" costs (most likely Spiderman). :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Get outta here man! You are wasting my time.
 
AAAARRRRGH. BACK AGAIN.

I always feel like whenever this happens,, here comes more about how "next-gen isn't next-gen because Pee. Cee"
yBZR4bZ.jpg


PC is better. Great. Its always going to be better. We know that. The real question is-

Where is Silent Hill? Is it real for PS5 or has it lost all credibility since Dusk fell apart?
 

AeneaGames

Member
How can they use unreal 5. If Epic are still collaborating & building it with Playstation. Sucks for team green. Playstation even have timed exclusivity on game engines.

That UE5 is not publicly available has several reasons, it's of course not quite finished yet but it also contains code that is under heavy NDA. That anyone can't download it yet until after the new consoles have been out for a few months does not mean that game devs might not be able to get their hands on early builds from Epic themselves, they have the same NDA anyway.

Even if that is not the case, UE5 is not a completely new engine, it's basically UE4.xx with a whole bunch of new features. A dev can easily recompile once UE5 becomes available to them AND then start to use the new stuff in there, but they might also already have the documentation for UE5 and already be able to add non-testable, non-compilable pieces of code for when they receive the new engine (with the C++ preprocessor you can do this in case someone is wanting to object).

All in all saying they can't have access might not be true. We have no idea if some of the scenarios above are true either of course but don't say things are for sure one way when we can't be sure at all yet...
 

ErRor88

Member
XSX SSD.

The custom NVME SSD in Xbox Series X is designed for consistent, sustained performance as opposed to peak performance


Innocenceii vid is engineered FUD as XSX SSD is a consistent 2.4 GB/s.
 

Imtjnotu

Member
So are you looking at the order in that list and thinking that's a list of how complex each of the RT features is? He even says in that talk that he saw a game using RT reflections with only "modest" costs (most likely Spiderman). :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Get outta here man! You are wasting my time.
Well yes. The list uses the same green to red as the ps4 heat to noise chart.

Just going off what Cerny said
 
This convenient hair splitting chestnut? I'm not a subscriber to this particular theory, this is a console discussion. I don't have a good quality gaming PC, certainly nothing that would go close to the power of a Series X.

Xbox games are exclusively Xbox in my house. If they're not in yours, then good luck to you.

This is a GOAT level post for the next gen thread.
 

By-mission

Member
So are you looking at the order in that list and thinking that's a list of how complex each of the RT features is? He even says in that talk that he saw a game using RT reflections with only "modest" costs (most likely Spiderman). :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Get outta here man! You are wasting my time.

With all due respect, but unless you are working on a PS5 exclusive game, please accept that you are also not the master of all things, and as many of us don't know either, you don't either.

 

Neo Blaster

Member
I had an Xbox and 360. I remember when Microsoft wasn't just about multiplayer GaaS games.
Discovered JRPGs on the 360 if you can believe it.
I was mainly a 360 gamer till Kinect came. Got mine on 2006 and had a blast with it, then got a PS3 on 2008 but most of the time it was collecting dust or being used as a media client (PS media server was really good). It always baffles me how MS had such a good system and dropped the ball so hard just to follow the Wii fad. From the point Sony released great after great exclusives, I went away from Xbox and never came back.
 
Baited? This guy attacked me!!

This goes for everyone in general.

This thread was locked before so please try and keep it civil here.

We've been keeping an eye on this thread the past few days. There really doesn't seem to be much merit in it existing any more. Hardly anything is on topic any more, people are posting any random tweets about game sales/general snippets of anythign design related, and despite many requests you still can't speak to each in a civil manner. Instead, preferring to just click the report button. We made this clear last time, sort out your own problems. If you are not going to self moderate by using the ignore feature or press down until a post you don't like disappears from the screen, then you are responsible for your own misery. And before anyone announces any 'conspiracy theories', we've had crying xbox fans and crying playstation fans reporting posts. And just to be clear, before the dramatisation is added, the number of xbox fans was slightly higher (but not significantly).
 
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Darius87

Member
Any person? But yet none spoke up when I presented the analysis. Why is that?
maybe they don't want to argue with you about your false claims and nonsense arguments?
How would you know what's in the Decima engine that's different? Do you work for GG? You speak like you work there.
nope just common knowledge that engines evolves over time.
So what's the argument dude? You are talking about a mid-to-low tier graphics processor in the PS5 being able to do what better than current gen besides ray-tracing? Like what?
  • 8K textures
  • Mega textures
  • up to 16K shadows
  • Higher sample motion blur
  • better ambient occlusion
  • more/high quality particle effects
  • fluid fire/liquid effects
  • per pixel Geometry
  • better AA/ post processing techniques
  • better Texture filtering
  • better Tessellation
  • better shading techniques
  • better HDR up to 10000 nits
  • better traditional GI/lightning techniques(not RT)
  • more lightning sources
  • higher resolution SSR
  • better/higher quality hair rendering
  • wider FOV
  • larger/higher quality draw distance
  • more dynamic objects
  • more realistic skin shading
  • 4K/8K resolution
there's more i don't know...


Again, you saw a cinematic demo and immediately stated "GG has enhanced their graphics engine to run this cinematic!! I don't know what they did but it just "looks" better to me! Enough of a difference to claim "next-gen"!! "
like i said you don't need to know engine in out to see what looks better and not.

So are you looking at the order in that list and thinking that's a list of how complex each of the RT features is? He even says in that talk that he saw a game using RT reflections with only "modest" costs (most likely Spiderman). :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Get outta here man! You are wasting my time.
Do you even heard when Cerny says that shadows and reflections takes about 100 millions rays? audio less then 1 million and GI more then 1 million.
if it takes modest cost for PS5 to do reflection in complex scenes then it's advantage for PS5 meaning it could do more RT effects.
 
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Cool demo. Everything too shiny as always, but still.
God there is no winning with this crowd! When you make everything shiny and every surface metallic so that those blind bastards finally see what is the difference when RT is maximally applied when otherwise they cry 'but but but there is no difference', then they start crying 'everything is so shiny' well duh it was a showcase it is exaggerated on purpose, dialed to 11. Please just try to be at least reasonable and think the purpose of these showcases before trying to find something to criticize. Say cool and just move on, not everything requires critical reaction.
 

Jboemios

Banned
If the Xbox Series X did it better they would simply choose it for the UE5 presentation!
It's time to get over this, ...

Unreal Engine 5, is a commercial Engine ... and of course it will be available on all platforms that Epic can reach, Jesus if they could make it work even in a refrigerator ...
The point is that you have a product, and make no mistake the UE5 is a product, you would present it in the best condition for the whole world to see ...

And they chose PS5, because that's where they had the best version
.. just accept that and move on ...
this was debated exhausted 500 pages ago, and when the games come out it will be debated again.

If this is true, every current gen third party game would be show in Xbox One X
 

DaGwaphics

Member
God there is no winning with this crowd! When you make everything shiny and every surface metallic so that those blind bastards finally see what is the difference when RT is maximally applied when otherwise they cry 'but but but there is no difference', then they start crying 'everything is so shiny' well duh it was a showcase it is exaggerated on purpose, dialed to 11. Please just try to be at least reasonable and think the purpose of these showcases before trying to find something to criticize. Say cool and just move on, not everything requires critical reaction.

I made a casual statement, I absolutely understand that tech demos are built to emphasize the feature that is being sold.

I agree that a hair trigger is never a good thing, a measured and thoughtful response is always the best way forward (unless I'm in the mood to BS, which is most of the time on Gaf). :messenger_grinning:
 
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Rudius

Member
Not true, Sackboy, Astro bot and Destruction All Stars have been confirmed to be sub 4K so far.
According to Digital Foundry in it's pixel counting, Astrobot is mostly native 4K 60, with a few screens coming at 80% resolution, indicating dynamic resolution when needed. Destruction All Stars is 4K 60 in almost all instances, but with a few 1080p captures; that's a drop to great to be dynamic resolution, so they speculate it could be a cross gen game. Sackboy is 1512p at 60 fps.
 

Vae_Victis

Banned
I noticed every time the news flow stops, the discussions becomes stagnant. And since the discussion is stagnant and nobody is really arguing any point that require you to actually read up on and think about new pieces of information as they develop, slowly but surely more and more bottom-feeder console warriors magically appear until the entire thread devolves into youtube-comments-session level of bullshit. I guess since now the debate is nothing but buzzwords and "no you"s, that's the perfect level they are comfortable engaging other people at.

It's a fascinating phenomenon, but if Gamescom doesn't bring anything to the table I don't want to think what another week of drought will do to this thread.
 

BGs

Industry Professional
That graph is misleading then. There is no way that reflections cost more thanq es s aaaawswasssa#@@######@@#£¥£¥££¥¥££¥¥¥£££££££££¥¥¥¥£¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥¥£¥¥¥£££££¥¥££¥£££¥£¥£##@@@@#@@#@@12@@@@1@##2#@@#2#2#@@@@@@@@@@@#@@@@@1@@2@aaasaass ass aaaaa es asa wwwGI. Never never never.w
Sorry, surely the fault is mine and I am not understanding you properly, but if I have understood you correctly, I, being a specialist in lighting optimization and GPU rendering in both BR and IPR and also RT, I cannot agree with you. Based on my experience, Cerny's graph is much closer to reality than your approach. But as I have already said, it is surely my fault and I have misunderstood you. In that case, I apologize for any inconvenience my comment may have caused you.

Parallel to this, I would like to add that Ambient Occlusion is no longer necessary at the precise moment that the hardware allows real-time GI. Since the AO is designed precisely to help simulate a false GI. Once the GI can be calculated, the AO can be dispensed with. It could be used as a support for low levels of GI imprecision but if you can save that pass much better.

My professional "vocabulary" may differ from Google Translate. So I don't know if the denominations of are translating correctly.

PS.- I don't know what happened to the aforementioned message. I hope it's not because GAF doesn't understand what you mean either (just kidding, don't mind).
 
This convenient hair splitting chestnut? I'm not a subscriber to this particular theory, this is a console discussion. I don't have a good quality gaming PC, certainly nothing that would go close to the power of a Series X.

Xbox games are exclusively Xbox in my house. If they're not in yours, then good luck to you.
giphy.gif



This puts it in to perspective


OX4vS2F.jpg
Guys he is an student according to his words, don't take literal everything you see in youtube,
the devs need to use the devkit to understand its limits and strengths, if they need to do it
you just cannot pretend you not.
my guess is, since xbox games are releasing on PC too they dont need to rush on it running on series X

where is PS5 games should be running on the dev kit pretty soonish

but this is pure guess work
You are not completely wrong but the problem with that is the uncertainty to doesn't know for many
time a release date for some title in Xbox like with Gears tactics and its IPs until now are not strong
enough to not require a marketing campaign close to the release date specially when you already
spent part of your budget for the same in PC months before.

Is not the end of the world but is a problem which can affect sales.

Ok. I'm going to tell you this and you can take it or leave it. Your choice.

You stating that it subjectively looks better and then assuming that a brand new graphics engine was made in order to make it look better subjectively is about the weakest argument I've ever heard. It shows your extreme bias to want to "MAKE" the game look next-gen just because that's what YOU want.

We can't have a conversation if that's your stance. Graphics engines aren't built all over again just because a new piece of hardware comes onto the scene. You must remember that the tech you are seeing in the next-gen consoles isn't new at all. They have been around for years on the PC from AMD/Nvidia graphics cards. The ONLY claim to new tech hardware is the SSD and it's subsystems. There is literally NO new tech in the GPU end of things. Consoles will ALWAYS be the lowest common denominator concerning graphics tech. You just need to get over in your head that everything Sony makes doesn't mean the latest and greatest in technology in a mere $500 box.

Having said that, HZD looks damn near 100% like HFW. I observe all the shaders, lighting, and geometry. There is literally nothing in HFW that shows it can't be implemented on a PS4 Pro. The only thing we can't see is the SCOPE of the game design for the sequel. That could very well mean it can't run on last-gen. But it's NOT going to be graphics implementations. At least not from the small cinematic that we've seen - which is ALL we can go by.
1.- Man you are known basically for every person in this thread to have a very strange bias in favor the PC gaming, which limits the toxicity so you are
not the best to talk about that.

2.-Is true the engines are almost never rebuilt completely again but also those involved with the pass of the time and Guerrilla is know for how good its engine
take use of the features of the Sony consoles, they basically pass from use CELL to Jaguar x86 CPUs I cannot even imagine a bigger jump where you need to
adapt your engine.

3.-Not every technology you see in this consoles exists now in PC and many even if exists doesn't has the same implementation sorry for break your bubble, your PC is
not the same than research centers of companies like AMD.

I found incredible you use that as argument and before you start to request examples please tell us a GPU which was in the market which hardware for cache scrubbers,
where are the RDNA 2 GPUs with RT in general now in PC? because I cannot find it, a similar thing happens with Xbox 360 more a decade ago for god sake.

4.-You had to understand you are paying GPU and CPU to a companies which have a incredible high profit per unit, the price you see in your retail are far of being the real
cost, instead companies like Microsoft and Sony even lost money per unit and they bought by dozens of millions.

5.- Regarding the HZD and HFW looks near for you, well man is time go to ophthalmologist or get psychiatrist because think you can make without problem in a PS4 pro
is be blind or be crazy, only with the fact they now are using Zen 2 CPU that game cannot be make in PS4 pro using jaguar and when don't even talk about how much memory
will be free because the pool for streaming will be much smaller now also they will be able to use new features of current GPUs compare with GCN/Vega which is the PS4 pro.

I always found incredible how much half reasoning comments you are able to write in a day, if you do it because you are verified and for this the people will be impressed ,
maybe that work with people which the closest thing to make a game is made a level something like mario maker or little big planet.
 
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BluRayHiDef

Banned
Someone help me out here. Would my current setup bottleneck an RTX 3090?

1. i7-5820k
2. Asus X99 Deluxe
3. 8 x 4GB Crucial 2400Mhz DDR4 RAM
4. EVGA GTX 1080 Ti
5. Samsung EVO 500GB SATA SSD
6. Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB HDD
7. Western Digital Blue 6TB and 4TB HDD
8. NZXT H440 Mid-Sized Tower

Here's the latest information on the 3090.
 

Tonidayo

Member
Hi can anyone make a list on pcpartpicker that details the equivalent of a PS5 for building a custom PC with similar specs? Thanks in advance
 
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