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Nintendo Turns Up Its Nose at Garage Developers [Update: Reggie Clarifies Comment]
- Thread starter FoxSpirit
- Start date
Looks, the games that are shit quality don't sell. A lot on the App Store doesn't sell. Things that don't sell aren't the future of the market, because...they don't sell. Fearing the App store because of some garbage 99 cent game that sold 50 copies and got no exposure anywhere is silly. Hell, I couldn't name one for you, because I don't care about them.AceBandage said:
The Indie Store has garbage too. SilverDollarGames isn't the future of the market. But would I disable the entire XNA App Hub just so they wouldn't make games? No. I'd be missing out on the Arkedo series, Zeboyd's games, Epic Dungeon and a lot of other great games that, even if some didn't meet sales hopes, I had a lot of fun playing. At less than three dollars.
The App Store as a new model for the industry doesn't mean everyone will be able to make shit and become millionaires. It means that smaller, more focused games will be able to get released with little barrier to entry. Some will stand out from the crowd, some will unfortunately be lost in the shuffle, which sucks, but the opportunity wouldn't have even been there otherwise.
'Pure game creation' would also be nice with the new interfaces like the PS Move, 3DS and Kinect.AceBandage said:
AceBandage
Banned
Cmagus said:
Yeah, Nintendo sure is shaking in its boots over games that will eventually get ported to their own download store...
Lyphen said:
And this is why we have the PC.
There's no entry fee, no middle man. Just pure game creation.
I still just don't get why people would want to put their games on systems that are already so loaded, and have to pay to do so, when they could put them on the PC and probably get a good following easily.
Good requirements, saves them the hassle of finding diamonds in all those roughs. BUT the american Idol thing is a bit much and it will makes them lose a lot of points on 3DSware, since as we all knows, DSiware isn't much better now than the shitty time around launch.
GeekyDad
Member
Htown said:
Sounds like you're almost referring to the ole Nintendo Seal of Quality. I don't think that's what Reggie was trying to convey. Nintendo are, in this particular matter, only concerned about the public's perception of dollar value. I'm sure Nintendo is still more than willing to allow floods of shit software on their platforms, so long as the prices don't get low enough to encourage consumer expectations of low-priced software. That's Reggie's only concern. I'm not making a judgment about it, personally, but that's the bottom line on the matter. I've always noticed the importance of this to Nintendo, and it surprises me that the media are making such a big deal about Reggie spelling it out. To me, the more interesting part of that Gamasutra interview had to do with the first-party, non-game content Nintendo intends to introduce on 3DS sometime around May. But whatever...the media latches onto the lowest common denominator-type drek.
boris feinbrand said:
Exactly, it's a business. Yes, other companies are opening up for smaller developers but at this point in time Nintendo doesn't believe in doing the same. It's a business decision and nothing more, why is that so hard to grasp? Maybe one day Nintendo will figure out a model that works for them but kudos to Nintendo for sticking to their business plan.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
the lowest price on WiiWare is $5, that's hardly a huge difference from the app store. Anyway, the discussion was about who can be an approved developer, what that takes, not what price the software is allowed to be after it's done. These are independent from each other.GeekyDad said:
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
It is better for Nintendo, and people with Nintendo platforms. Think about it. You will have more games at different prices. Some of the games will be good others bad, but let the consumers decide that.boris feinbrand said:
AceBandage
Banned
Boney said:
He's an inconsistent gimmick account.
AceBandage
Banned
PoliceCop said:
Condescension.
AceBandage said:
I believe this when I see it Nintendo's support for its download service are lackluster in my opinion.If you honestly think games like Steel Diver are worth 50.00 then your crazy.It's easy for Nintendo to go on about charging those types of prices cause it's Nintendo and they sell well.Others however at that price don't 90% of games now on DS end up in bargain bin within weeks.3DS will be the same as the DS a few good titles and the rest will be garbage shovelware.
I don't see a problem with developers charging .99 - 2.99 for their games why not.Sure Nintendo needs to make money they are a company and they have people they need to impress. 2-3 guys making a game for 1.99 that sells well and nets them decent profit is just as fine and they are allowed to be creative, no one to answer and they can get titles out faster.
Iphone is very much a threat to Nintendo 3DS specially with it's install base.I also believe the NGP could very well pose a big threat as well if it comes in around 250.00.
Nintendo-4Life said:
Considering how Reggie used the terms, I think the difference he wants to highlight is that indie developers would have established themselves officially as a game developer (as in, they develop games have a business), whereas garage developers would not have. (Instead, they develop games as an aside to their "official" work.) IIRC, this plays into the regulations or rules or whatnot that Nintendo has in supporting smaller developers or letting them develop for their system.
Tobor said:
They can make adjustments to their business plan if need be, there's a reason the company went from 26 million systems sold to the best selling home console on the market in one generation. Right now they do not feel like opening up their market to small developers and there is nothing wrong with that at all based on what we've all seen this generation.
A Twisty Fluken
Member
A few good games.... Man, I miss the lol smiley.Cmagus said:
Also, I didn't realize so many people had played Steel Diver.
AceBandage
Banned
Cmagus said:
wat
The DS had pretty much the best lineup of games last generation.
Yes, it had a good share of shovelware, but to say only a few games were good is just plain wrong.
Also, how many of those 2-3 man teams actually net a profit? I can't imagine it's a lot of them. The AppStore is not a hospitable environment for developers that actually want to see money in their pockets.
flyinpiranha
Member
farnham said:
On your first statement: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
On your second statement: While I'm not interested in many Wii titles I can't deny that they have an amazing lineup for their audience, and as for the 3DS ... it's been out a fucking month haha!
Seriously? You're basing the system off of IGN's review of 2 games?
Oh shit! Now we got PoliceCop all up in this doing some condescendingness.
He's a great cop though, sniffs out all Nintendo threads and then tries to shit on them with doom and gloom. If anything I applaud him for his consistency.
nincompoop
Banned
There's always the Homebrew Browser if you really want to play indie games from garage developers on your Wii. Good luck finding anything even remotely playable while sifting through the hundreds of worthless games though.
AceBandage
Banned
BroHuffman said:
By that token, so is the PC... but it has no entry fee other than having a PC.
So again, why do people choose consoles over the PC for their small budget games?
Cmagus said:
Yeah, this is false.
I've bought and kept more games for my DS over its lifetime than my 360, PS3, and Wii combined. Other than Dead Space 2, the best games to be released so far in 2011 have been on handhelds. (I would have said the DS, but that would have been ignoring Tactics Ogre, which is inexcusable.)
AceBandage said:
Probably comes down to money. PC has the reputation of being pirated to hell (not that consoles arn't) and that small devs maybe feel that they could sell more of their games on a console.
But if their main goal isn't to make money, but get their name out to fans and publishers... then I dunno why choose one over the other.
charlequin
Banned
Kintaro said:
Why does Nintendo even have to include online play? Or an analog stick? Why allow third-party development at all? Those are just what everyone else is doing, after all! This is a ridiculous argument and you know that.
The reason it makes sense for Nintendo to open up some form of indie development is that, if there's any truth whatsoever to the idea that Nintendo's system is a valuable target for development in and of itself, some people are going to want to develop titles for it -- people will have ideas for 3D-driven games or AR titles or other things that can't be done elsewhere (or maybe can't be done easily elsewhere) and want to bring those to the 3DS.
I mean, if Nintendo had an absolutely pitch-perfect, couldn't-possibly-be-improved software lineup across all their systems, then yes, I'd say "sure, they shouldn't try anything new" -- but they don't. Some form of small, inexpensive content from tiny developers could help serve as one way to flesh out an underdeveloped side of their library -- it doesn't have to be the way MS or Sony or Apple does it, just some acknowledgement that this area of the market exists.
GeekyDad said:
And that's a part of the problem: Nintendo's idea of "perception of dollar value" is foolish and actively self-destructive, and it's led them to more poor decisions (waiting too long on Wii pricedrops, not implementing a Player's Choice line) this generation than good ones. They need to move to a more holistic view of pricing and believe (as the evidence suggests) that their top games will still be worth $35 or $50 even when cheaper games are available elsewhere.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
That's not what he said, he was talking of a very specific way of doing a very specific thing... Nintendo did avoid having two analog sticks, and that turned out fine.charlequin said:
They have some form of indie development. People are crying because they don't have the exact form Apple does where literally anyone can hop onboard.
I'm pretty sure they believe that, and it's what they urged other developers to do in GDC. Do their best, offer software of this quality, and they will stand out from the shovelware that exists in all price ranges, from $1 to $60. Just like their Wii games in a market others consider a lost cause, just like Angry Birds on the Apple Store.
Me and Reggie on are the same wavelength, but he just was even more callous about it then I'd be.
It's not that there's not possibly some good out there, but you have to really show you've got what it takes. If you got what it takes and make a product that is amazing, it'll show without any 'Garage Developer' label. It's difficult if you're a company as big as Nintendo to tell the difference between who has what it takes and who is just talking a big game.
Most of the time, however, garage developed games are just really horrendous. Less content, less quality, less everything than a fully developed retail game. There's always exceptions but that's what makes them exceptions: they don't play very much like Garage games.
In summary: I support Garage Developers in spirit; just not with money.
It's not that there's not possibly some good out there, but you have to really show you've got what it takes. If you got what it takes and make a product that is amazing, it'll show without any 'Garage Developer' label. It's difficult if you're a company as big as Nintendo to tell the difference between who has what it takes and who is just talking a big game.
Most of the time, however, garage developed games are just really horrendous. Less content, less quality, less everything than a fully developed retail game. There's always exceptions but that's what makes them exceptions: they don't play very much like Garage games.
In summary: I support Garage Developers in spirit; just not with money.
charlequin said:
I see your point about the price point. But why do developers have to drop their price after they make their money back off the title? Why not keep it 49.99 or 59.99? Because we gamers want cheap things ? I do not see Art pieces losing value or becoming cheaper after they have been made 100 years later. I can see dropping the price after a year or two by like 10 dollars but many gamers out their think now "well I will wait until its in the bargin bin or cheap used game". You know what lead to this way of thinking? Individuals perception of value and how they want everything for free.
Sorry but I still think Twilight Princess is worth more than 30 dollars. Its just pathetic that we as consumers believe everything should drop in value so quickly (in the gaming market that is).
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
That is not entirely true, various small developers had their first games on WiiWare. I think NyxQuest is Over the Top Games' first title. It really isn't a gigantic barrier to entry. It's just not low enough that even I and other people like me could do it. That's a good thing, imo.Momo said:
Momo said:
That's another thing about Garage Developers; 80% of the time they can't stop thinking about how hip they're so the extent of their vision is going back 20 years and making a game with retro sprites and chiptunes. Look at how RETRO I am.
That game looks cool, though. Interesting idea
But like I said, if a game like that comes and demonstrates its quality and vision, a publisher will pick up on it. It's just... if I was Nintendo, I'm not going to sit there trolling websites for a concept 1 out of a million that turns out to be legitimately good. If a Garage Developer has that talent, they will demonstrate it over time.
andymcc said:
I would not always buy something at MSRP. I would not pay 40 for steel diver just like how I would not pay 15k for a Colbalt LS. But alot of titles (especially AAA HD titles) are worthy of the price tag.
Once you are in the situation then you will understand. Most people here do not know how it is.
I edited that out because I'm thinking by garage devs you didnt mean three man named studios like these =PAmir0x said:
Here is another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zm7gEDhrPfk&feature=player_embedded
Veering off point cause I dont consider them to be "garage devs".
By which point they will already have established commercial and working relationships with other platform holders/partners and will be less inclined to work with Nintendo.
Momo said:
Not necessarily. If they have a fully developed game that demonstrates its quality and shops it around, it will demonstrate that to someone even like Nintendo. I just mean Garage Developers have the demonstrate more up front then anyone else, because they're...Garage Developers.
Oppo
Member
Apple isn't really a publisher in the traditional sense, they sell hardware primarily, so of course they have no problem handing out $99 dev kits to anyone with a Mac.
I can see why Nintendo wouldn't be interested in an App Store model, as it works against them in many ways (Nintendo is still weak in the online space, and definitely want to make their own games as hits where they can), but I have to agree with GoFreak and others in that this means Nintendo will definitely be missing out on some of the more innovative, grassroots stuff in the near term. You can't compete with a motivated army of pseudo-volunteer devs selling trendy, flashy games for a pittance that players can use on their phones. The DS has no way of really matching the likes of Angry Birds and Cut the Rope. Not because they can't technically run games like that on Nintendo hardware, but just because those small flashy games can get to market (and get bough) so quickly and cheaply with Apple's setup.
I can see why Nintendo wouldn't be interested in an App Store model, as it works against them in many ways (Nintendo is still weak in the online space, and definitely want to make their own games as hits where they can), but I have to agree with GoFreak and others in that this means Nintendo will definitely be missing out on some of the more innovative, grassroots stuff in the near term. You can't compete with a motivated army of pseudo-volunteer devs selling trendy, flashy games for a pittance that players can use on their phones. The DS has no way of really matching the likes of Angry Birds and Cut the Rope. Not because they can't technically run games like that on Nintendo hardware, but just because those small flashy games can get to market (and get bough) so quickly and cheaply with Apple's setup.