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[dotnotbot]

Panasonic also makes brighter OLED's.

Yes, but I was talking about near-black details, not peak HDR brightness. These are 2 unrelated things. And you clearly don't know how HDR works if you think that OLED is worse than LCD for HDR because it has 'only' 800 nits. In a proper environment, OLED is currently the best by far beacuse of practically infinite contrast ratio.

 

[decisions]

Hopefully this isn't too off-topic, but since we have bunch of TV discussion going here...

Recently got a great deal on a TCL 5-series. Really enjoying the TV, but just want to make sure I'm using the right settings for gaming. I usually have game mode on (pretty sure it automatically turns off when not playing games?), and use "Normal HDR". Any other suggestions?

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Yes, but I was talking about near-black details, not peak HDR brightness. These are 2 unrelated things. And you clearly don't know how HDR works if you think that OLED is worse than LCD for HDR because it has 'only' 800 nits. In a proper environment, OLED is currently the best by far beacuse of practically infinite contrast ratio.

Both things I covered:
I was talking about the blacks having a issue.
I was also talking about the low peak brightness being a issue cause it is.
OLED's have black crush.
As HDR gets brighter OLED will left in the dust.

 

[Kuranghi]

Short Answer (Or if you want something new rather than used): A Sony, Panasonic or LG 2018+ OLED is best for HDR.

Long Answer: Some specific LCDs from 2016 are going to better for HDR brightness and impact, namely: Sony ZD9/Z9D or Panasonic DX902. Aside from the Samsungs mentioned below, these two LCDs are the only sets with enough dimming zones and have 10% window peak brightnesses of 1650 and 1250 nits respectively. Which is almost triple and double what an OLED can do [Excepting the Panasonic GZ2000 with its 900+ nits on a 10% window but I've not much experience with it so can't say if it makes a big difference next to an AG9 or C9] on the same test pattern. So a lot of the scenes will have more "pop" on the these LCDs. The exception being very small bright objects in the frame, they will usually be brighter on the OLED. The ZD9/Z9D has ~646 zones in 65", ~848 zones in 75" and a mindblowing ~1500 zones in the 100"!! The DX902 has ~550 zones in 65", not sure about other sizes.

The 100" ZD9/Z9D is my dream TV but the cheapest I've ever seen it is £38k and that was a special case and used. It's ~2800 nits on a 10% window...

Samsung has really good dimming potential with the 2018 Q9FN and 2019 Q90R (320 zones in 55" and 480 zones in 65" and 75") but its ruined by their EOTF fuckery and shit image processing/game mode/upscaling/motion/fucking everything except the low input lag, which is meaningless for most modern games and it makes the image look like ass to get those low figures, when comparing it to Sony or Panasonic for instance.

Motion in 30hz games will look nicer on LCDs because of the higher pixel response times, specifically the 65" Z9D/ZD9 having a very high PRT which makes 24hz movies and 30hz games look good on it but black or near black colours shapes/lines sweeping across white or near white colour backgrounds will smear a bit but its few and far between the content it happens on. Pixelated games will prob look best on OLED due to its very low PRT, there will be no smearing at all.

Movies get the same advantage in HDR on the LCDs but its less useful here because films won't often have large parts of the frame being very bright for extended periods as its uncomfortable to watch. Plus, a space film or TV show that shows pure black backgrounds with stars on them will mostly be more impressive on the OLED.

I could go on for too long, but its getting to point where the question is pointless because you won't be able to get those sets anymore, used or not. The Q90R and the 2019 Sony ZG9/Z9G will then be the only answers, with the former being compromised in various ways [I forgot it also "only" has 480 zones in 75" which is too few for that size, the 55" will be far and away the best in this regard, edit: I made a mistake in my calculations, the 65" actually has the smallest dimming zones, at 3.76"2 per zone, the 55" model's zones are slightly bigger at 4"2 per zone, so 65" will be best for local dimming as long as the Samsung dimming algorithm can keep up with the larger screen size, if not there will be a lag between the zones dimming/brightening and the content moving on screen] and the latter being 8K, available in 85" and 98" only + stupidly expensive.

(edited the bit about Q90R various sizes dimming zone size.)

 

[Kuranghi]

Hopefully this isn't too off-topic, but since we have bunch of TV discussion going here...

Recently got a great deal on a TCL 5-series. Really enjoying the TV, but just want to make sure I'm using the right settings for gaming. I usually have game mode on (pretty sure it automatically turns off when not playing games?), and use "Normal HDR". Any other suggestions?

I would turn off anything that says "dynamic contrast" or "contrast enhancer" or things like "vivid/deep colour", basically you want anything that post processes the image to be off so you reduce the time it takes for the TV to present the image to you, reducing the input lag. Anything that intelligently [ie object/materials-based analysation] sharpens the image will be adding a lot of lag, if there.

If you PM me a picture of the settings menus of your TCL, while hovering over each setting to see a description of the setting I will tell you what I think should be off to reduce input lag.

 

[JAMMA]

,

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

Still blown away by my $1,200 Sony X950G LCD . (+$400 for calibration hardware and software)
It isn't perfect, but it is accurate, and allows for a lot of fine tuning to get things just right for each input source. SDR content is wonderful, even old-school PS2 games look stunning (when coupled with my OSSC/Framemiester -> mCable setup). HDR is nice too, but the TV can't work miracles. It has some flaws when you start trying to push things like it's very limited local dimming, low viewing angles, and it doesn't have CRT level input lag, although it's around 20ms. The remote is just above garbage level and the sound is mediocre, but I use a 7.1 receiver anyway.

Point is I tried to pick a TV that had flaws I could live with and was within my budget.

 

[Kuranghi]

Still blown away by my $1,200 Sony X950G LCD . (+$400 for calibration hardware and software)
It isn't perfect, but it is accurate, and allows for a lot of fine tuning to get things just right for each input source. SDR content is wonderful, even old-school PS2 games look stunning (when coupled with my OSSC/Framemiester -> mCable setup). HDR is nice too, but the TV can't work miracles. It has some flaws when you start trying to push things like it's very limited local dimming, low viewing angles, and it doesn't have CRT level input lag, although it's around 20ms. The remote is just above garbage level and the sound is mediocre, but I use a 7.1 receiver anyway.

Point is I tried to pick a TV that had flaws I could live with and was within my budget.

Personally, if looking for a 65" and you don't want to go to the price of the good OLEDs [ie, not a B9], I think the X950G is the best choice for gaming + they really improved the menus last year and I wish I could get that on my old Sony set. Samsung would be a contender if they didn't fuck around so much, even with professional calibration you can never fix some of their "improvements" to the tone curve, dimming algorithm, etc. Not to mention its more expensive that bloody OLED but without the overall quality of the LCDs I mentioned.

BTW, All these TV's I'm poo-pooing are great in isolation: B9, Q90R, etc but I'm grading them on an absolute scale compared to what you can find today. I really hope this Sony Z8H/ZH8 will be something special but I doubt it, I think it will be better than the ZF9 dimming zone wise but nowhere near the Z9G/ZG9 capabilities, which in turn are disappointing for the size of screen.

I hold out hope for an X980H or something similarly named that sits above the X950H and competes with the 2018-2020 Samsungs dimming zone count wise. I think the dream of a true Z9D/ZD9 successor is off the table as this point even if we got a 65" and 75" inch Z9G/ZG9 with 500+ dimming zones for the 65" I'd be happy, but I think the Z8H/ZH8 is supposed to fill that role, in those sizes, but the name suggests its not 9 series quality.

 

[Kuranghi]

I think all owners of QLEDs should be aware of Samsung's fuckery btw, I know creative marketing is a thing but Samsung effectively lies to its consumers about the brightness/nit values and "colour volume" of its QLEDs:

https://adstandards.com.au/sites/default/files/17acb2_-_case_report_-_final.pdf

This was brought my LG in 2017, you don't need to read it all, just scan to page 9 and read how they calculate various things and the tests they use to get these figures. Its all pure BS and I want more people to buy Sony, Panasonic and LG in the future instead of Samsung.

For instance Samsung will advertise the Q90R as having "Quantum HDR 2000", implying it has a peak brightness of 2000 nits, but these values are obtained from cherry-picked samples, in the lab, with tests they themselves made and for less than 1 second. So in real life content the brighest thing you are going to see on the screen is more like ~1250 nits. Bascially the same values as the 80% cheaper Sony X950G. Not dishonest at all.

Here are the true brightness values from rtings, "real scene brightness" is the in-practice figure since its known now that 2017+ [at least] Samsung sets detect ANSI and standard [2%, 10%, 25% white window on black background] test patterns and switches to a different dimming mode which you would never see used in real content because it would destroy the image.

Samsung Q90/Q90R QLED Review (QN65Q90RAFXZA, QN75Q90RAFXZA, QN82Q90RAFXZA)

The Samsung Q90R is an excellent 4k TV with impressive picture quality. It has a high native contrast ratio, great local dimming support, and excellent black uni...

www.rtings.com

Once again - I'm not saying you have a shit TV or that you are an idiot for buying it, I just want you to know how deceitful they are.

 

[holygeesus]

Review samples are always cherry picked, no matter which company and what TV technology. It is why I never rely on reviews for such things as uniformity and wait instead for actual real-world reviews from people once they are on general sale.

 

[Kuranghi]

Review samples are always cherry picked, no matter which company and what TV technology. It is why I never rely on reviews for such things as uniformity and wait instead for actual real-world reviews from people once they are on general sale.

Not every review/reviewer, independant people like Vincent Teoh from "HDTVTest" don't get them direct from manufacturers, they come from an AV shop like any of us would buy our sets from.

https://www.youtube.com/user/hdtvtest/ if you want to check him out.

I'm also of the mind that searching for the perfect panel uniformity is putting yourself in a world of pain, just be happy with what you get unless its really egregious and/or you only watch ice hockey, films set in deserts or solid-colour animated childrens shows. I think if you can take a photo of the set with the content playing and the DSE is noticeable then its grounds to get a better one.

 

[holygeesus]

Not every review/reviewer, independant people like Vincent Teoh from "HDTVTest" don't get them direct from manufacturers, they come from an AV shop like any of us would buy our sets from.

https://www.youtube.com/user/hdtvtest/ if you want to check him out.

I'm also of the mind that searching for the perfect panel uniformity is putting yourself in a world of pain, just be happy with what you get unless its really egregious and/or you only watch ice hockey, films set in deserts or solid-colour animated childrens shows. I think if you can take a photo of the set with the content playing and the DSE is noticeable then its grounds to get a better one.

Yeah big fan of VT too but he still borrows sets that are no doubt checked out beforehand by the retailers etc. I'm not a big fan of RTings reviews, but they certainly buy the TVs they review as we do, so are decent sources for such things as uniformity. While I do agree with you, anything that distracts while watching real world content should be exchanged, especially at the prices we are paying.

I'm especially prone to noticing tinting, but fortunately my AF9/A9F is spot on in that regard, but the 2019 LGs sound very poor in terms of QC. Sony and Panasonic seem to fare better with OLED uniformity unless LG are binning panels for them. If I see tinting or bands during sports such as hockey (or football here in the UK) the set is swapped out.

 

[Kagey K]

I posted in a different thread before I saw this one but I’m on the verge of impulse buying a LG B9 right now. I dont need it, but damn does it look pretty And it has all the HDMI 2.1 features already enabled. Going from a Samsung MU6300 this looks like a huge upgrade.

 

[Kuranghi]

I'm especially prone to noticing tinting, but fortunately my AF9/A9F is spot on in that regard, but the 2019 LGs sound very poor in terms of QC. Sony and Panasonic seem to fare better with OLED uniformity unless LG are binning panels for them.

Yeah me too mate, I always tried to mention these as reasons to buy Sony or Pana OLEDs over LG OLEDs but its hard when its a £400-800 difference and you can't just say "Look mate, people return defective/disappointing LGs at a far higher rate than Sony or Pana and the colour accuracy is shit out of the box so that £400 you saved would/should go towards professional calibration anyway", because its classed as "disparaging".

I don't like RTings review either because they don't subjectively rate the image processing/upscaling of the sets, they say Sony's X-Motion Clarity BFI technique is subpar (when its been better than anything else on the market since 2018) and say that pixel response rate being lower is better even though that inversely affects the frame hold time of the set. So lower PRT is not better for most/all cases. Among other problems with their "reviews".

 

[Kuranghi]

I posted in a different thread before I saw this one but I’m on the verge of impulse buying a LG B9 right now. I dont need it, but damn does it look pretty And it has all the HDMI 2.1 features already enabled. Going from a Samsung MU6300 this looks like a huge upgrade.

Definitely a huge improvement, you won't regret it!

If you can do it, definitely go up to the C9 or Sony AG8 [Pana if you in UK too], its well worth the extra couple hundo. IF you don't you'll still see a crazy upgrade just going from edge-lit LCD to OLED.

edit - A Sony OLED will give you much better sound than any LG OLED, which is great if you don't want/can't have a big sound system along with the TV. Check it out, its called Accoustic Surface.

 

[Kagey K]

Definitely a huge improvement, you won't regret it!

If you can do it, definitely go up to the C9 or Sony AG8 [Pana if you in UK too], its well worth the extra couple hundo. IF you don't you'll still see a crazy upgrade just going from edge-lit LCD to OLED.

edit - A Sony OLED will give you much better sound than any LG OLED, which is great if you don't want/can't have a big sound system along with the TV. Check it out, its called Accoustic Surface.

Well you and Ulysses 31 made my decision harder. I was looking at the B9 because it was on sale and rtings had it as the best tv for winter 2020. C9 is on sale also for the same discount and makes it the same price as the B9 if the B9 was full price.

Not too fussed about the sound as I’m running external sound and don’t use the tv speakers.

 

[Kuranghi]

If they are both on sale then definitely still the C9 at least, if you don't intend to upgrade for another few years. How much is the Sony AG8 where you are? In the UK it was the same price as the C9 for a few months now.

If you do go up to the C9 and the AG8 is the same price I'd recommend it over the C9, because I prefer the processing and motion on it, especially for movies, but if you are just gaming on it then the C9 has the better gaming features.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I don't like RTings review either because they don't subjectively rate the image processing/upscaling of the sets, they say Sony's X-Motion Clarity BFI technique is subpar (when its been better than anything else on the market since 2018) and say that pixel response rate being lower is better even though that inversely affects the frame hold time of the set. So lower PRT is not better for most/all cases. Among other problems with their "reviews".

Pixel Response time is a HUGE advantage in gaming and if they could get OLED screens down to monitor sizes. You could likely get the perfect 360 Hz sets.

However, you are correct that PRT is a disadvantage when it comes to movies in that the quick response can lead to some of the worst stutter when watching movies imaginable. It was the biggest disadvantage with my B7A.

LG has made some very nice strides to fix this with the Clear setting in TruMotion. That setting minimizes the stutter without introducing the soap opera effect. My C9 is light and days better when it comes to watching movies.

If they are both on sale then definitely still the C9 at least, if you don't intend to upgrade for another few years. How much is the Sony AG8 where you are? In the UK it was the same price as the C9 for a few months now.

If you do go up to the C9 and the AG8 is the same price I'd recommend it over the C9, because I prefer the processing and motion on it, especially for movies, but if you are just gaming on it then the C9 has the better gaming features.

Sorry, but I got to disagree with this. Until Sony gets HDMI 2.1 on their OLEDs there is absolutely no reason to consider Sony OLEDs. HDMI 2.1 just has too many features that will be of huge benefit to next gen gaming that it's just pointless to consider anything else. If you were getting an OLED for the sole purpose of movies/TV then by all means.

As someone who owns a C9, LG has made major gains in motion processing and movies now look really good with the Clear in TruMotion so the difference between them and Sony is probably smaller than it has ever been., but the lack of HDMI 2.1 makes the gap too huge to ignore.

If Sony TVs had HDMI 2.1 support and the prices were in the ballpark, I'm with you, I would absolutely get a Sony as I love their TVs.

 

[holygeesus]

I posted in a different thread before I saw this one but I’m on the verge of impulse buying a LG B9 right now. I dont need it, but damn does it look pretty And it has all the HDMI 2.1 features already enabled. Going from a Samsung MU6300 this looks like a huge upgrade.

Depends how much you need 2.1 but having owned an LG OLED I will never buy one again, for how they botched the last B6 firmware which permanently left the set with raised black levels. That really limits you if you need 2.1 as neither Sony or Panasonic are putting the hardware in their TVs for 2020. As mentioned above both Panasonic and Sony produce better TVs and their prices are more competitive of late.

My AF9 is the best TV I have ever owned, and I've had everything from top of the line CRTs to Pioneer Kuro plasmas and Optoma projectors.

 

[Kuranghi]

Ohh you reminded me that X-Motion Clarity is coming for the 2020 Sony OLEDs! Can't wait to see how that looks.

 

[Kagey K]

If they are both on sale then definitely still the C9 at least, if you don't intend to upgrade for another few years. How much is the Sony AG8 where you are? In the UK it was the same price as the C9 for a few months now.

If you do go up to the C9 and the AG8 is the same price I'd recommend it over the C9, because I prefer the processing and motion on it, especially for movies, but if you are just gaming on it then the C9 has the better gaming features.

It’s the slightly cheaper then the C9 if the C9 wasn’t on sale. The B9 is 1699 CAD right now the C9 is 1999 and the Sony is 2199

 

[Kagey K]

Depends how much you need 2.1 but having owned an LG OLED I will never buy one again, for how they botched the last B6 firmware which permanently left the set with raised black levels. That really limits you if you need 2.1 as neither Sony or Panasonic are putting the hardware in their TVs for 2020. As mentioned above both Panasonic and Sony produce better TVs and their prices are more competitive of late.

My AF9 is the best TV I have ever owned, and I've had everything from top of the line CRTs to Pioneer Kuro plasmas and Optoma projectors.

I don’t need HDMI 2.1 per say, I’m just trying to future proof myself as much as possible. Plus my XB1X can take advantage of some of the features today.

I don’t think I’d want to buy a TV without HDMI 2.1 because I know next gen consoles are going to take advantage of it.

 

[holygeesus]

I don’t think I’d want to buy a TV without HDMI 2.1 because I know next gen consoles are going to take advantage of it.

I guess that remains to be seen. No doubt both will feature HDMI2.1 but whether the actual games make use of the features at this stage is open to debate.

 

[Kagey K]

Definitely a huge improvement, you won't regret it!

If you can do it, definitely go up to the C9 or Sony AG8 [Pana if you in UK too], its well worth the extra couple hundo. IF you don't you'll still see a crazy upgrade just going from edge-lit LCD to OLED.

edit - A Sony OLED will give you much better sound than any LG OLED, which is great if you don't want/can't have a big sound system along with the TV. Check it out, its called Accoustic Surface.

Just got home with my C9 thanks for all the input in this thread and the other one.

Now to set it up and test it out.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

I guess that remains to be seen. No doubt both will feature HDMI2.1 but whether the actual games make use of the features at this stage is open to debate.

I have little doubt that most games will take advantage of VRR.

 

[Represent.]

Decided to save the extra money and go with the B9.
Coming from a 2012 1080P Samsung. Going to be a fucking massive upgrade, I'm excited.
Don't even have a PS4 Pro or XB1X yet, just going to get a PS5.
So I'll still be gaming in 1080p, but it should still look much better than what Im used to, right?
Fully expecting my head to explode when I finally get on that 4K HDR next gen wave.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Enjoy

 

[skneogaf]

Oled at 120hz is absolutely incredible, jts so blur free that my 144hz lcd monitor looks garbage in comparison. I can't wait for a gpu with hdmi 2.1 so I can try my LG c9 at 4k 120hz!

 

[Kagey K]

I made a huge mistake by setting up the C9 in the main room to test it out. My g/f fell in love with the quality of Dolby Vision on Disney+ and Netflix, as well as her playing on her X, and now I'm apparently not allowed to take it down to my gaming area.

Looks like I may have to buy a second one if I want to be able to log any kind of gaming hours on one, that was a terribly expensive mistake, I should have taken it straight down to my setup.

 

[TheBoss1]

I made a huge mistake by setting up the C9 in the main room to test it out. My g/f fell in love with the quality of Dolby Vision on Disney+ and Netflix, as well as her playing on her X, and now I'm apparently not allowed to take it down to my gaming area.

Looks like I may have to buy a second one if I want to be able to log any kind of gaming hours on one, that was a terribly expensive mistake, I should have taken it straight down to my setup.

Exactly what almost happened with me. I said if she sees what this thing can do, I will never be allowed to move it again. So I made sure to set it up in the game room. I was even begged to put it in the living room after setting it up but I said it's too much to move rn lol

 

[DemonCleaner]

OLED is just better atm.

 

[holygeesus]

Kentucky Route Zero is a game that shines on an OLED. Just wouldn't look the same on an LCD no matter how good the local dimming or bloom control. Wow.

 

[Ulysses 31]

OLED is just better atm.

And if you're a fan of brightness then QLED is just better.

 

[DemonCleaner]

And if you're a fan of brightness then QLED is just better.

that doesn't amount to much, if you have to live with totally washed out blacks while in game mode.

 

[holygeesus]

that doesn't amount to much, if you have to live with totally washed out blacks while in game mode.

You are fighting a losing battle. He is the resident OLED-shitter-on. No idea why but maybe he is an industry plant or something, paid to prowl Internet forums spreading misinformation.

 

[Ulysses 31]

that doesn't amount to much, if you have to live with totally washed out blacks while in game mode.

I can only speak for my Q950R that black levels aren't remotely washed out in game mode, they're fine. I would've taken back the TV and gone another brand if game mode made the picture that much worse.

You are fighting a losing battle. He is the resident OLED-shitter-on. No idea why but maybe he is an industry plant or something, paid to prowl Internet forums spreading misinformation.

What are you on about? I've said several times that OLED is the choice for better picture quality.