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Pregnant woman ran down a fleeing man 'who stole purse from her car' in Walmart

It also means more than the loss justifies. Taking a life is still excessive over lost property.

True, but it's bullshit that a victim of theft is expected to stand and watch a thief take their stuff and do nothing. Though I just considered that giving them free reign to do whatever they want to pursue them puts them at risk, and also opens the possibility of someone attacking somebody and falsely claiming a theft took place in order to justify it. Those are points I hadn't really considered until now, so even though I honestly don't personally object to what this woman did, I can see how she still needs to be punished in accordance withbthe law. I'm glad she's at least only getting a misdemeanour.
 
Here's what you did say, though.



You said, although I'll allow you said it would be unlikely, but it's nonetheless not unthinkable that you would kill someone trying to steal your motorcycle. It would be "an easy choice."

In that instance if you were to make that not unthinkable choice, just as this woman made that choice as she chose to drive her car with the intent of hitting the thief with it as he was fleeing, you are the one posing the unlawful lethal threat, and not the thief. Someone else in that instance would be the one legally justified in killing you.

I said I'd value my motorcycle over someone who would steal it. A thief. Not a bystander, not a random. Someone stealing my motorcycle.

And that if I had to chose between the two I'd pick my motorcycle anyday. And I think I would. Doesn't mean that I'd physically do anything to the thief though.

I have no idea what nonsense you're on about in your final paragraph tho.
 

prag16

Banned
And the only reason she didn't "run over" him is because she hit a parking curb a moment before she plowed into him. She made no effort to stop at all and would have completely run over him if given the opportunity.

Ah, now we're dealing with "what ifs" again. What if he got fully run over. What if he had died. He has minor injuries.
 

.JayZii

Banned
Ah, now we're dealing with "what ifs" again. What if he got fully run over. What if he had died. He has minor injuries.
I mean... there's a reason there are things such as attempted murder. Not that she'll get charged with that, but just because she didn't "succeed" doesn't mean it's not a big deal.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I mean... there's a reason there are things such as attempted murder. Not that she'll get charged with that, but just because she didn't "succeed" doesn't mean it's not a big deal.

Don't bother, we'll all be labeled "The thief's defenders" again by prag16 lol
 

Meier

Member
Ah, now we're dealing with "what ifs" again. What if he got fully run over. What if he had died. He has minor injuries.

Who cares if his injuries are only minor? That is entirely irrelevant to the conversation. The intent to harm is the issue, not the result. If you're walking down the street and someone shoots at you for some reason but turns out to be a terrible shot and only graze your arm so you escape with minimal injuries, does it make the act of shooting at you less of an issue?
 
Ah, now we're dealing with "what ifs" again. What if he got fully run over. What if he had died. He has minor injuries.

If someone empties an entire AK-47 into a playground and it turns out he only grazed one kid, would you say "eh, it was only an injury"?

She was using the car as a weapon. She got into the car and drove after the thief with the intention of hitting him with her car. This wasn't an "oh golly gee I didn't see him there" instance.
 

Nester99

Member
Clearly she will have some legal repercussions. I don't think Attempted murder will stick but Assault with a deadly weapon might.

No sympathy for the thief however, that's is the risk associated with breaking the law. Maybe he wont think stealing is "easy money" in the future.
 
Ah, now we're dealing with "what ifs" again. What if he got fully run over. What if he had died. He has minor injuries.

306322.gif
 

prag16

Banned
Don't bother, we'll all be labeled "The thief's defenders" again by prag16 lol

A deserved label, when standing up for a thief who just got done breaking into a car and stealing a purse. As has been said numerous times in this topic, the thief took a risk, and it didn't work out for him. I don't think anybody here has quite said "the woman did absolutely nothing wrong". But to paint her as the main villain here is baffling. Which is what you and others are doing.

Who cares if his injuries are only minor? That is entirely irrelevant to the conversation. The intent to harm is the issue, not the result. If you're walking down the street and someone shoots at you for some reason but turns out to be a terrible shot and only graze your arm so you escape with minimal injuries, does it make the act of shooting at you less of an issue?

That's not analogous to what happened in this situation.

If someone empties an entire AK-47 into a playground and it turns out he only grazed one kid, would you say "eh, it was only an injury"?

She was using the car as a weapon. She got into the car and drove after the thief with the intention of hitting him with her car. This wasn't an "oh golly gee I didn't see him there" instance.

Not analogous to this situation. And what happened prior matters. It sure as hell will to a jury.
 

Budi

Member
If you aren't evem going to bother fucking reading the words you're quoting, then don't bother quoting them.

Here's what I said again:


"...so long as you don't use more force than is necessary to retrieve what was stolen.

The only option this woman had to get her purse back was to do what she did."

You do know what "excessive" means, right? It means more than is necessary. She had no other option available to her if she wanted to get her purse back. Therefore I believe it shouldn't be considered excessive force, because the only way it can be considered as such is to say she should just let the thief take her purse. Which I think is bullshit, and is my whole point. It's not about "justice" or "the guy getting what he deserved". I believe that if you're the victim of theft, you shouldn't be penalised for taking the only opportunity you have to recover your stuff.
Edit: Seems like this was already covered, nevermind.

It's not really that simple. On citizen's arrest and use of force in the US:

In general, a private person is justified in using non-deadly force upon another if they reasonably believe that: (1) such other person is committing a felony, or a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace; and (2) the force used is necessary to prevent further commission of the offense and to apprehend the offender. The force must be reasonable under the circumstances to restrain the individual arrested. This includes the nature of the offense and the amount of force required to overcome resistance

Just because she wouldn't have got her purse back on the spot without hitting him with a car, doesn't automatically mean it wasn't excessive.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
A deserved label, when standing up for a thief who just got done breaking into a car and stealing a purse. As has been said numerous times in this topic, the thief took a risk, and it didn't work out for him. I don't think anybody here has quite said "the woman did absolutely nothing wrong". But to paint her as the main villain here is baffling. Which is what you and others are doing.
.

Here's the thing, any one of us you're calling 'thief defenders' aren't actually defending any action taken by this thief, stop this misconception and come out of the bubble.

They're both bad guys in this case but attempted murder and assault with a deadly weapon is a bigger offence than petty theft.

That's not analogous to what happened in this situation.

Why ? You used the same argument, because the guy didn't have any serious injuries, you said its OK and we shouldn't use the 'what if' arguments. The action leading up to the end results matter just a much as the end results. The thief stole from her but with no intent to harm her, the woman purposefully got into a car to ram down the thief, the intent is pretty clear.

She said it as much in her statement "I wasn't gonna let him get away with it".

Not analogous to this situation. And what happened prior matters. It sure as hell will to a jury.
Well .. if there's people like yourself in the jury, she might as well get a medal for bravery.
 

.JayZii

Banned
Just in case anyone is confused.

Stealing from people is incredibly shitty.

Attempting to run someone over with your car is incredibly shitty (call me an asshole, but I would say worse).

Neither was justified in their actions, and both should face legal repercussions.
 

prag16

Banned
Here's the thing, any one of us you're calling 'thief defenders' aren't actually defending any action taken by this thief, stop this misconception and come out of the bubble.

They're both bad guys in this case but attempted murder and assault with a deadly weapon is a bigger offence than petty theft.

She's not being charged with attempted murder. And no reasonable jury will convict her of assault with a deadly weapon either.

The thief is probably reading this thread right now, taking note of which posters will stand idly by while he steals their stuff.
 
How would you feel if she took out a gun and shot him in the back as he ran away? Honest question. Because I can't distinguish between that and what she did in any material way, and I want to know if you think shooting an unarmed person as they run away is an okay thing to do in response to petty theft.

I'm in no way saying what she did was ok, but it is alot different than if she got robbed by this guy saw him 30 mins later and then ran him over.

Im referringto the Sharia law and Zimmerman analogies
 
Who cares if his injuries are only minor? That is entirely irrelevant to the conversation. The intent to harm is the issue, not the result. If you're walking down the street and someone shoots at you for some reason but turns out to be a terrible shot and only graze your arm so you escape with minimal injuries, does it make the act of shooting at you less of an issue?
How do you know the intent is to harm? Maybe the intent was to stop him.

I bet Sharia and Capital Punishment defenders are also reading this thread singling out potential new recruits :)
There is a major difference between someone doing something like this in the moments after being robbed, and the authorities doing it as actual punishment for the crime.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
She's not being charged with attempted murder. And no reasonable jury will convict her of assault with a deadly weapon either.

The thief is probably reading this thread right now, taking note of which posters will stand idly by while he steals their stuff.

I bet Sharia and Capital Punishment defenders are also reading this thread singling out potential new recruits :)
 

prag16

Banned
She said it as much in her statement "I wasn't gonna let him get away with it".

She didn't want to let the thief get away with her purse, and she stated as much. Obviously means she thinks he deserves to die! Solid logic.

How do you know the intent is to harm? Maybe the intent was to stop him.


There is a major difference between someone doing something like this in the moments after being robbed, and doing it as actual punishment after the fact.

Exactly. As I've stated multiple times, even a portion (most apparently, at least in this topic) of gaf doesn't care about this distinction, any jury sure as hell will.
 
Not analogous to this situation. And what happened prior matters. It sure as hell will to a jury.

Ugh, fine. Pregnant woman finds thief stealing purse. Thief runs away. Pregnant woman pulls an assault rifle out from the back of her car and empties it into the parking lot after the thief, and only wings him once or twice. Is that analogous enough for you?

Car = weapon that can kill. Other people could have been hurt as well. Thief did not deserve possible death for stealing a purse. Does he deserve something? Sure. Not what the lady did. Lady needs to learn that, too.
 
She didn't want to let the thief get away with her purse, and she stated as much. Obviously means she thinks he deserves to die! Solid logic.



Exactly. As I've stated multiple times, even if portions of gaf doesn't care about this distinction, any jury sure as hell will.

If you hit someone with a car they tend to die. This guy didn't die out of sheer luck.
 
Just in case anyone is confused.

Stealing from people is incredibly shitty.

Attempting to run someone over with your car is incredibly shitty (call me an asshole, but I would say worse).

Neither was justified in their actions, and both should face legal repercussions.

Attempting to run over someone who just stole from you is a bit of a grey area though.

A bit a misdemeanor you could say.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
She didn't want to let the thief get away with her purse, and she stated as much. Obviously means she thinks he deserves to die! Solid logic.

SHE RAN HIM THE FUCK OVER WITH A 99' FORD !

You don't do things like that as an analogue for retrieving your purse.

ALSO. THE GUY FUCKING DROPPED THE PURSE BEFORE FLEEING.

Asheville Police spokesman Wallace Welch said in a news release Raines dropped the purse before running away and suffered minor injuries when he was hit by the car. Raines was taken to the hospital and treated for minor injuries, CBS affiliate WFMY reports.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/christi...na-woman-runs-down-robert-raines-purse-thief/

There was even less reason for her to give chase other than vengeance.

There is a major difference between someone doing something like this in the moments after being robbed, and the authorities doing it as actual punishment for the crime.

They're both just as bad. Reactionary violence isn't any better than planned punishment
 

Budi

Member
The thief is probably reading this thread right now, taking note of which posters will stand idly by while he steals their stuff.
60s8lrE.gif

A deserved label, when standing up for a thief who just got done breaking into a car and stealing a purse. As has been said numerous times in this topic, the thief took a risk, and it didn't work out for him. I don't think anybody here has quite said "the woman did absolutely nothing wrong". But to paint her as the main villain here is baffling. Which is what you and others are doing.
People are standing up for human life. How the fuck you don't get that.
 
They're both just as bad. Reactionary violence isn't any better than planned punishment
No, it isn't. There is a clear difference. If you can't see how someone doing this in the heat of the moment is different from, let's say, a government having a law to cut a criminals hand off for stealing, I am truly at a loss for words.
 
Wait, can someone explain why this isn't attempted murder?

A lot of people in this thread sure are trying.

ALSO. THE GUY FUCKING DROPPED THE PURSE BEFORE FLEEING.

Wait he didn't even have the purse? Okay that's even worse.

I mean, it's ambiguous for a jury because there's no telling whether the woman knew the purse had been dropped already, but if she had noticed that changes everything as all the people saying "she was just doing it to stop him and get her purse back" have nothing anymore.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
There is no evidence of her attempt to kill him. She was trying get her purse back. Not trying to murder.

Plot twist, he dropped the purse before fleeing.

Asheville Police spokesman Wallace Welch said in a news release Raines dropped the purse before running away and suffered minor injuries when he was hit by the car. Raines was taken to the hospital and treated for minor injuries, CBS affiliate WFMY reports.

Cue comments about how the poor woman might not have seen it.

No, it isn't. There is a clear difference. If you can't see how someone doing this in the heat of the moment is different from, let's say, a government having a law to cut a criminals hand off for stealing, I am truly at a loss for words.

Have you read this topic in its entirety ? We have a whole bunch of people agreeing what the woman did was justified, inflicting potential bodily harm to the thief is acceptable ... how can you say that is not the same levels of inhumane as cutting someone's hands off ?

The point you're quoting of my post isn't based on the woman's action, I was replying to someone saying something about peoples responses in this thread.
 

prag16

Banned
Plot twist, he dropped the purse before fleeing.



Cue comments about how the poor woman might not have seen it.

Here you are, assuming the worst in the woman, while giving the thief the benefit of the doubt. Yet getting up in arms when I said you're defending the thief.
 
There's a big different between your person objects and random objects. And the life of someone who'd rob you and a random life.

I'd value my motorcycle over the life of someone who'd steal it anyday anytime for example.

But not a random motorcycle.

Not that I think I'd try to kill someone for attempting to steal my bike. But if I had to chose between them, it's an easy choice.


You value your bike over a person's life?

People need to get some perspective, it's sickening.
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Here you are, assuming the worst in the woman, while giving the thief the benefit of the doubt. Yet getting up in arms when I said you're defending the thief.

lol .. just because i'm pointing the woman's many idiocies doesn't mean i'm automatically siding with the other party.

please don't quote me and say how i support thievery .. lol
 

Aske

Member
Don't bother, we'll all be labeled "The thief's defenders" again by prag16 lol

And everyone who empathises more strongly with the woman will be labeled psychopathic monsters who are one bad day away from murdering people who give them the stink eye. The hyperbole from both sides is cringe-worthy.

Surely it's not impossible to understand that some people empathise more strongly with the man who was almost killed, while others empathise more strongly with the woman who was robbed?

I think the more constructive discourse at this point is trying to figure out how things ought to work in a society that doesn't want to promote desperate, dangerous attempts to recover ones property like this.

I feel like compensating a victim for lost property is reasonable. While it would obviously be open to abuse, fraud is a crime with its own set of punishments. I think the vast majority of people on both sides of this debate would prefer a system that disincentivizes violent protection of one's property by mitigating the damage that loss might cause the victim. Would that be workable? Is this something that's done in other countries?

Obviously the best thing would be to replace the prison system with something designed solely to reduce recidivism, while working to eliminate poverty and provide better care for the most marginalised members of society; but that's a pipe dream in the US.
 
Have you read this topic in its entirety ? We have a whole bunch of people agreeing what the woman did was justified, inflicting potential bodily harm to the thief is acceptable ... how can you say that is not the same levels of inhumane as cutting someone's hands off ?

The point you're quoting of my post isn't based on the woman's action, I was replying to someone saying something about peoples responses in this thread.
And I am replying to your posts, saying there is a clear difference between reactionary violence and planned violence. Because that was your argument in the previous post.
 
You value your bike over a person's life?

People need to get some perspective, it's sickening.

Yeah, I'd care about my valuables more than some thief actively trying to steal my most sentimentally valuable possession. It's common sense.

You are maladjusted and your post history in this thread has been nothing short of reprehensible and burgeoning on sociopathic.

S e e k h e l p.

lmao how do you people function in real life?
 

adamsapple

Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
And I am replying to your posts, saying there is a clear difference between reactionary violence and planned violence. Because that was your argument in the previous post.

You're entitled to your opinion on this as much as I am to mine. I think reactionary violence is just as bad as the alternative. Neither lead to good outcomes.

Surely it's not impossible to understand that some people empathise more strongly with the man who was almost killed, while others empathise more strongly with the woman

Good post, I agree with most of what you said but will single out this quote to reply to

You're right, it's not. But the divide between petty theft and assault with a deadly weapon is pretty large to judge them on the same scale IMO.
 

MJLord

Member
And everyone who empathises more strongly with the woman will be labeled psychopathic monsters who are one bad day away from murdering people who give them the stink eye. The hyperbole from both sides is cringe-worthy.

Surely it's not impossible to understand that some people empathise more strongly with the man who was almost killed, while others empathise more strongly with the woman who was robbed?

I think the more constructive discourse at this point is trying to figure out how things ought to work in a society that doesn't want to promote desperate, dangerous attempts to recover ones property like this.

I feel like compensating a victim for lost property is reasonable. While it would obviously be open to abuse, fraud is a crime with its own set of punishments. I think the vast majority of people on both sides of this debate would prefer a system that disincentivizes violent protection of one's property by mitigating the damage that loss might cause the victim. Would that be workable? Is this something that's done in other countries?

Obviously the best thing would be to replace the prison system with something designed solely to reduce recidivism, while working to eliminate poverty and provide better care for the most marginalised members of society; but that's a pipe dream in the US.

I'm quoting this post as a form of support for posts that are great but get buried by polarised arguments.
 

Budi

Member
Yeah, I'd care about my valuables more than some thief actively trying to steal my most sentimentally valuable possession. It's common sense.



lmao how do you people function in real life?
Pretty well because we aren't sociopaths. You should try it too! Real life isn't about some kind of vigilante justice.
 
You're entitled to your opinion on this as much as I am to mine. I think reactionary violence is just as bad as the alternative. Neither lead to good outcomes.
Sure, and this is a message board where most posts will be about disagreements in opinions, otherwise it would be kind of boring.

I rather have no violence of course, but I don't see how for example punching a burglar in the face, would be on the same level as going out in the street with the intent to punch someone in the face, let alone having a judge make a ruling that someone should be punched in the face as punishment for a crime. Those are all different things and some are most certainly worse then others.
 
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