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[TheRedRiders]

Looking recently at DF's video on the new Avatar game, the CPU utilisation is surprisingly low on PC, which is interesting because PC usually has more CPU overhead than consoles due to differences in hardware and API utilisation.

I know there was concern about the Pro's alleged Zen 2 spec, but I'm guessing Cerny looked at a graph of what most PS5 titles trend at in terms of CPU usage and cost and felt a higher clocked Zen 2 would be enough for the job.

 

[Moridianae]

Still, a part of me wonders if they could've at least gone with a Zen 3 and kept the price the same.

I don't know how much bonus that gives, though. The way folks speak that are more knowledgeable, anything is better than Zen 2..

I don't see the system costing over $600, though. Wasn't the Pro around $100 more than the regular version?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Looking recently at DF's video on the new Avatar game, the CPU utilisation is surprisingly low on PC, which is interesting because PC usually has more CPU overhead than consoles due to differences in hardware and API utilisation.

I know there was concern about the Pro's alleged Zen 2 spec, but I'm guessing Cerny looked at a graph of what most PS5 titles trend at in terms of CPU usage and cost and felt a higher clocked Zen 2 would be enough for the job.

People sometime forget that Sony talks to devs a lot and they do profile the games too. Also, new CPU generation is part of a much bigger system design and balancing decision which you do for a new generation architecture (R&D work of which is already in progress for sure).

For Pro consoles I see them more focused on making it the ultimate PS5 edition that does not require significant development effort by their teams (for BC support or Pro patches) or third parties. The budget on the architecture redesign is also likely more limited than a full generation leap, so you are likely to see very few and isolated Big changes (and those in an automatic fashion, development wise) like HW BVH traversal and HW shader reordering / ray coherency sorting because that is an area the base console suffered more than they expected (or just as much as they could afford to prepare things for launch of the base console HW) and has to get some more significant features upgrades to sort it out.
Even I/O wise I think they are likely tweaking some internal things (I doubt the internal SSD will be significantly faster, but more likely it will be more standardised and thus cheaper while maintaining the same performance characteristics); perhaps the OS will get more dedicated slower RAM and thus free 1-1.5 GB for games from the main memory pool that could then be used to store additional data and help titles that are less adept at using the new file I/O APIs and need more RAM to avoid streaming issues (looking at you Unreal Engine 5 for anything related to texture streaming ).

 

[Panajev2001a]

I don't see the system costing over $600, though. Wasn't the Pro around $100 more than the regular version?

No, that was the Xbox One X that released about a year later for $100 more (… and people were acting “surprised” it was a bigger specs increase ).


PS4 Pro launched at the same price the base PS4 launched at, but I do not expect it to happen this time (they may need to bump the price up to get the performance increase they need from a mid generation upgrade: once again, technology improvements are happening at a slower and slower pace… if you want to fight this trend it will cost you).

 

[PeteBull]

The Pro is closed platform and I think some of the extra GPU power would be used more to alleviate some tasks that would run on the CPU, like how Mark Cerny explained asynchronous compute during the PS4 unveiling.

AMD Radeon RX 6700 XT Specs

AMD Navi 22, 2581 MHz, 2560 Cores, 160 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 12288 MB GDDR6, 2000 MHz, 192 bit

www.techpowerup.com

Look at what amd launched in march 2021, 40cu, basically ps5 gpu on roids, visibly more tflops, it even beats xsx gpu, 479usd msrp, ofc it doesnt have to be contained in small box aka console form factor, hence 230W tdp.

We can extraplotae from that, sony had access to same tech for their ps5, on same 7nm process node, so they downclocked that very chip(ofc made apu from it, aka combo of cpu and gpu), which reduced its power requirements, they even decided to turn off 4cu's which again makes sense coz of massproduced ps5 chip- u want as many chips to be eligible as possible- and voila- we got ourselfs ps5 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/playstation-5-gpu.c3480

What we keep on saying is, the already existing 7800xt is such a gpu that very likely will be base for whats inside of ps5pr0, with 1 caviot, its made on 5nm node, while ps5pr0 is rumored to be made on 4n(not 4nm but 4n which is somewhere inbetween 5nm and 4nm), tldr it might be only just tiny bit slower from 7800xt(remember 263W tdp) , unlike ps5 vs 6700xt that was visibly slower, specs wise( 10,2tf vs 13,2tf).

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-7800-xt.c3839 here once again exact specs, 263tdp, 499usd msrp launch price, all point to realistic expectations we will get something similar to this kind of power(lower process node will make it possible to put it into ps5pr0 apu with barely any dowgrading on the clocks, hence again leaks mentioning around 60-70% uplift from base ps5, this gpu is 78% uplift).

And yes coding to the metal/focusing on 1 specific platform will help for sure, but we talking specs here, aka what realistically will be found inside ps5pr0 devkits and later officially presented to us, likely somewhere around early 2nd half of 2024.

 

[shamoomoo]

AMD Radeon RX 6700 XT Specs

AMD Navi 22, 2581 MHz, 2560 Cores, 160 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 12288 MB GDDR6, 2000 MHz, 192 bit

www.techpowerup.com

Look at what amd launched in march 2021, 40cu, basically ps5 gpu on roids, visibly more tflops, it even beats xsx gpu, 479usd msrp, ofc it doesnt have to be contained in small box aka console form factor, hence 230W tdp.

We can extraplotae from that, sony had access to same tech for their ps5, on same 7nm process node, so they downclocked that very chip(ofc made apu from it, aka combo of cpu and gpu), which reduced its power requirements, they even decided to turn off 4cu's which again makes sense coz of massproduced ps5 chip- u want as many chips to be eligible as possible- and voila- we got ourselfs ps5 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/playstation-5-gpu.c3480

What we keep on saying is, the already existing 7800xt is such a gpu that very likely will be base for whats inside of ps5pr0, with 1 caviot, its made on 5nm node, while ps5pr0 is rumored to be made on 4n(not 4nm but 4n which is somewhere inbetween 5nm and 4nm), tldr it might be only just tiny bit slower from 7800xt(remember 263W tdp) , unlike ps5 vs 6700xt that was visibly slower, specs wise( 10,2tf vs 13,2tf).

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-7800-xt.c3839 here once again exact specs, 263tdp, 499usd msrp launch price, all point to realistic expectations we will get something similar to this kind of power(lower process node will make it possible to put it into ps5pr0 apu with barely any dowgrading on the clocks, hence again leaks mentioning around 60-70% uplift from base ps5, this gpu is 78% uplift).

And yes coding to the metal/focusing on 1 specific platform will help for sure, but we talking specs here, aka what realistically will be found inside ps5pr0 devkits and later officially presented to us, likely somewhere around early 2nd half of 2024.

I'm not sure what this has to do with my comment as the person I replied to is suggesting the power difference between CPU and GPU is going to cause a bottleneck on the Pro.

 

[StealthGoblin]

In this thread we have some interesting takes:

A group of people who think Sony will put out a Pro console and eat a huge amount of the cost for a lot more memory and the desire for a better GPU.

A group of people complaining that the specs aren't great but aren't willing to pay more.

Guys - it'll be a decent upgrade at a fair price for what you get. Sony won't go too hard because the PS6 is where the large jump between PS5 will be.

 

[MikeM]

Looking recently at DF's video on the new Avatar game, the CPU utilisation is surprisingly low on PC, which is interesting because PC usually has more CPU overhead than consoles due to differences in hardware and API utilisation.

I know there was concern about the Pro's alleged Zen 2 spec, but I'm guessing Cerny looked at a graph of what most PS5 titles trend at in terms of CPU usage and cost and felt a higher clocked Zen 2 would be enough for the job.

That and consulting with devs on where they’d like more overhead on. People here speculate but unless you actually dev on PS5 its nothing more than guesses.

 

[twilo99]

Looking recently at DF's video on the new Avatar game, the CPU utilisation is surprisingly low on PC, which is interesting because PC usually has more CPU overhead than consoles due to differences in hardware and API utilisation.

I know there was concern about the Pro's alleged Zen 2 spec, but I'm guessing Cerny looked at a graph of what most PS5 titles trend at in terms of CPU usage and cost and felt a higher clocked Zen 2 would be enough for the job.

Enough for 30 FPS? I can see that

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Looking recently at DF's video on the new Avatar game, the CPU utilisation is surprisingly low on PC, which is interesting because PC usually has more CPU overhead than consoles due to differences in hardware and API utilisation.

I know there was concern about the Pro's alleged Zen 2 spec, but I'm guessing Cerny looked at a graph of what most PS5 titles trend at in terms of CPU usage and cost and felt a higher clocked Zen 2 would be enough for the job.

This is pretty much the basis of everything I have said about the PS5pro sticking to Zen2.

If anything, my point has always been, that whatever it is they go with, it would be because they know that would be sufficient for 90%+ of every game released on the PS5.

Enough for 30 FPS? I can see that

I guess it's easy to stay ignorant if you just bury your head in the sand.

There is enough information, data and common sense to not be saying what you have just said. But atlas... here we are.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I guess it's easy to stay ignorant if you just bury your head in the sand.

There is enough information, data and common sense to not be saying what you have just said. But atlas... here we are.

And he tries to play innocent.

 

[PeteBull]

I'm not sure what this has to do with my comment as the person I replied to is suggesting the power difference between CPU and GPU is going to cause a bottleneck on the Pro.

About cpu bottleneck- depends on the game and exact situation, we saw how gta5 behaves with ulimited fps on both base ps4 and ps4pr0, it definitely can be cpu bottlenecked in that game, heavily, dips to 26fps on ps4 and around 35fps on pr0 in same scenes with big shoutouts/fast driving, lots of npcs on screen, basically when shit hits the fan.

If game gonna put heavy strain on the cpu, at least in some situations/areas ofc we can forget about stable 60, maybe we gonna get at least stable 40 while base ps5 gets 30 only?

Gpu wise there are many ways to lessen burden, usually all kinds of dynamic resolution scaling and upscaling help a lot there, cpu wise u have to make very nasty cuts, lowering draw distance(famous pop in in 60fps forza horizon mode, while in 30fps or in 60fps pc its non existant), lowering geometry/world detail lvl, reducing amount of npcs or even halfing/quartering their animation framerate, all are very visible but thats the sacrifices needed to hit stable 60, simply something gotta give.

 

[Physiognomonics]

AMD Radeon RX 6700 XT Specs

AMD Navi 22, 2581 MHz, 2560 Cores, 160 TMUs, 64 ROPs, 12288 MB GDDR6, 2000 MHz, 192 bit

www.techpowerup.com

Look at what amd launched in march 2021, 40cu, basically ps5 gpu on roids, visibly more tflops, it even beats xsx gpu, 479usd msrp, ofc it doesnt have to be contained in small box aka console form factor, hence 230W tdp.

We can extraplotae from that, sony had access to same tech for their ps5, on same 7nm process node, so they downclocked that very chip(ofc made apu from it, aka combo of cpu and gpu), which reduced its power requirements, they even decided to turn off 4cu's which again makes sense coz of massproduced ps5 chip- u want as many chips to be eligible as possible- and voila- we got ourselfs ps5 https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/playstation-5-gpu.c3480

What we keep on saying is, the already existing 7800xt is such a gpu that very likely will be base for whats inside of ps5pr0, with 1 caviot, its made on 5nm node, while ps5pr0 is rumored to be made on 4n(not 4nm but 4n which is somewhere inbetween 5nm and 4nm), tldr it might be only just tiny bit slower from 7800xt(remember 263W tdp) , unlike ps5 vs 6700xt that was visibly slower, specs wise( 10,2tf vs 13,2tf).

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-7800-xt.c3839 here once again exact specs, 263tdp, 499usd msrp launch price, all point to realistic expectations we will get something similar to this kind of power(lower process node will make it possible to put it into ps5pr0 apu with barely any dowgrading on the clocks, hence again leaks mentioning around 60-70% uplift from base ps5, this gpu is 78% uplift).

And yes coding to the metal/focusing on 1 specific platform will help for sure, but we talking specs here, aka what realistically will be found inside ps5pr0 devkits and later officially presented to us, likely somewhere around early 2nd half of 2024.

7800 XT won't be the PS5 Pro GPU, at all. PS5 Pro is supposedly based on RDNA3.5 with quite different architecture than RDNA3, the same used on future RDNA4 GPUs. That GPU (on PC) will have a total of 64CUs with 2 shader engines (possibly with 128 ROPs) while 7800XT has a total of 60CUs with 3 shader engines and 96 ROPs.

The "Navi 32" GPU physically features 60 compute units spread across three Shader Engines

AMD Radeon RX 7800 XT Review

With the Radeon RX 7800 XT, AMD is going after the GeForce RTX 4070. Our review confirms that AMD has achieved performance parity in rasterization and is pretty close in ray tracing, at a much better price point, and they are giving you 16 GB VRAM, instead of just 12 GB.

www.techpowerup.com

PS5 Pro GPU is going to be quite different than 7800 XT, as different as RDNA3 was compared to RDNA2. We don't know yet how it's going to perform.

 

[StealthGoblin]

That and consulting with devs on where they’d like more overhead on. People here speculate but unless you actually dev on PS5 its nothing more than guesses.

Exactly. He totally Outfoxed Microsoft in many ways:

The hardware is cheaper to produce
The hardware has cost reduction in mind
The I/O design has made things very easier for developers
In many ways it's performing equally, or even to a point where the difference isn't noticeable to a box with a greater TFLOPs differential and with a more expensive build.

 

[hlm666]

We can extraplotae from that, sony had access to same tech for their ps5, on same 7nm process node, so they downclocked that very chip(ofc made apu from it, aka combo of cpu and gpu), which reduced its power requirements, they even decided to turn off 4cu's which again makes sense coz of massproduced ps5 chip- u want as many chips to be eligible as possible- and voila- we got ourselfs ps5

The 96GB of infinity cache has also been chopped, it's kinda an important part of the performance equation. It's probably a good time to point out all the comparisons with ada gpus in here seem to all forget the big increases in l2 cache of those gpus and is again an important part of the performance equation between ampere and ada.

 

[PeteBull]

7800 XT won't be the PS5 Pro GPU, at all. PS5 Pro is supposedly based on RDNA3.5 with quite different architecture than RDNA3, the same used on future RDNA4 GPUs. That GPU (on PC) will have a total of 64CUs with 2 shader engines (possibly with 128 ROPs) while 7800XT has a total of 60CUs with 3 shader engines and 96 ROPs.

AMD Radeon RX 7800 XT Review

With the Radeon RX 7800 XT, AMD is going after the GeForce RTX 4070. Our review confirms that AMD has achieved performance parity in rasterization and is pretty close in ray tracing, at a much better price point, and they are giving you 16 GB VRAM, instead of just 12 GB.

www.techpowerup.com

PS5 Pro GPU is going to be quite different than 7800 XT, as different as RDNA3 was compared to RDNA2. We don't know yet how it's going to perform.

Rdna3 wasnt all that different actually vs rdna2, in raster, it increased rt performance for sure, and by a lot, but rasterisation wise it was very small jump.

Just compare amd's best rnda2 card https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-6950-xt.c3875 1099$ launch price, 520mm die size
vs amd's best rdna3 card https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon-rx-7900-xtx.c3941 999$ launch price, 529mm die size, so same ballpark
+36% performance jump in raster, relatively lil, actually.

And remember its 7nm rnda2 vs 5nm rnda3, 7 to 5nm process node provided decent gains by itself, archi wise.
In raster, improvements werent that great, all the usual leakers(with mlid at the forefront) predicted even up to 70% jump in performance and even months later claimed it all came down to some kinds of software/bios being updated soon that will give the missing performance back, ofc nothing like that happened

Im bringing up best both architectures had to offer on purpose, but if u look at midrange/lower end models, its looking even worse, compare 6700xt to 7700xt(22%), or 6800xt to 7800xt(5%gain)- in that last case probably unfrair comparision coz launch price was 150$ lower but cant compare it to 7900xt that had 899$ launch price

Edit: Special case is 6600 to 7600 jump, both are monolitic chips since its lowrange card, 7600 is made on 6nm process and is 204mm die vs 6600 being 239mm die and made on 7nm process yet still 26% performance uplift, very interesting case study, even launch price is only 269$ on 7600 vs 329$ on 6600.

 

[DeathGuise]

Fair play if you have patience of a saint. Though you'll be missing out on years of gaming, waiting for a refresh/Pro model. For just the same games with better performance and image quality. Same goes for waiting for ports of PS games on PC.. even more waiting. If you cared for top performance, consoles ain't where its at. And be better off upgrading your PC. And have a console for exclusives.

Options are a nice thing to have. Especially when the console generations are getting longer, with several years in between.

I mean that's part of the point I was trying to make- it doesn't really require that much patience. What games am I missing out on by waiting for 5 Pro? We'd have to be talking about games that are only playable on PS5 right now. I think the DS remake is the big one.

 

[PeteBull]

I mean that's part of the point I was trying to make- it doesn't really require that much patience. What games am I missing out on by waiting for 5 Pro? We'd have to be talking about games that are only playable on PS5 right now. I think the DS remake is the big one.

Same pov here, i didnt buy base ps5 on purpose(got 3080ti instead) for the very reason i calced its smarter to stick with stronger pc for multiplats for now, and wont be long before i can play all exclusives(including timed like ff7rebirth and gta6) on much stronger pr0 console.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

7800 XT won't be the PS5 Pro GPU, at all. PS5 Pro is supposedly based on RDNA3.5 with quite different architecture than RDNA3, the same used on future RDNA4 GPUs. That GPU (on PC) will have a total of 64CUs with 2 shader engines (possibly with 128 ROPs) while 7800XT has a total of 60CUs with 3 shader engines and 96 ROPs.

AMD Radeon RX 7800 XT Review

With the Radeon RX 7800 XT, AMD is going after the GeForce RTX 4070. Our review confirms that AMD has achieved performance parity in rasterization and is pretty close in ray tracing, at a much better price point, and they are giving you 16 GB VRAM, instead of just 12 GB.

www.techpowerup.com

PS5 Pro GPU is going to be quite different than 7800 XT, as different as RDNA3 was compared to RDNA2. We don't know yet how it's going to perform.

Technically... that's not how that ".5" monicker works. The PS5pro, can't be based on RDNA 3.5 which is very different from RDNA3 because that GPU doesn't exist. When we say something is "3.5" it means it's based on RDNA3 (in this case) but has some features that may be present in RDNA4 or not even in any RDNA GPU period. Again, in this case, this would be an RDNA3 GPU with RT cores from RDNA4, without the infinity cache of RDNA2/3/4 and maybe some dedicated ML hardware all on a 4nm process than no RDNA3 based GPU is on.

And no... the closest thing to the PS5pro would be the 7800XT being that that GPU has 60 CUs. So whether the PS5pro has 64CU but ends up with 60 active, or 60CU but ends up with 56 active, the 7800XT is still the best GPU to measure the PS5 against.

As it stands, on 5nm, the GCD of the 7800XT (meaning we are not taking into account the infinity cache and mem controllers) is 200mm2. So on a 4nm process that could be around 170mm2. Then, throw in the CPU, I/O complex, 256-bit memory bus, and likely bigger CUs to accommodate the 3rd gen RT cores... and you end up with an APU of around 300mm2+.

 

[twilo99]

I guess it's easy to stay ignorant if you just bury your head in the sand.

There is enough information, data and common sense to not be saying what you have just said. But atlas... here we are.

Higher clock speeds? What else am I missing?

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

This is pretty much the basis of everything I have said about the PS5pro sticking to Zen2.

If anything, my point has always been, that whatever it is they go with, it would be because they know that would be sufficient for 90%+ of every game released on the PS5.

Yeah these games are mostly gpu limited

Zen2 is plenty powerful and massive leap over jaguar. Giving a big cpu boost for a mid gen refresh doesn’t make a whole lot of sense

 

[MikeM]

Technically... that's not how that ".5" monicker works. The PS5pro, can't be based on RDNA 3.5 which is very different from RDNA3 because that GPU doesn't exist. When we say something is "3.5" it means it's based on RDNA3 (in this case) but has some features that may be present in RDNA4 or not even in any RDNA GPU period. Again, in this case, this would be an RDNA3 GPU with RT cores from RDNA4, without the infinity cache of RDNA2/3/4 and maybe some dedicated ML hardware all on a 4nm process than no RDNA3 based GPU is on.

And no... the closest thing to the PS5pro would be the 7800XT being that that GPU has 60 CUs. So whether the PS5pro has 54CU but ends up with 60 active, or 60CU but ends up with 56 active, the 7800XT is still the best GPU to measure the PS5 against.

As it stands, on 5nm, the GCD of the 7800XT (meaning we are not taking into account the infinity cache and mem controllers) is 200mm2. So on a 4nm process that could be around 170mm2. Then, throw in the CPU, I/O complex, 256-bit memory bus, and likely bigger CUs to accommodate the 3rd gen RT cores... and you end up with an APU of around 300mm2+.

If true, would be a damn solid console.

 

[twilo99]

And he tries to play innocent.

I think it's pretty obvious that relying on Zen2 architecture mid/end 2025 is a not ideal.

If you were building a gaming PC during summer 2025, would you consider Zen2 as your CPU?

 

[adamsapple]

Sony expects Pro specs to leak​

 

[DeepEnigma]

I think it's pretty obvious that relying on Zen2 architecture mid/end 2025 is a not ideal.

If you were building a gaming PC during summer 2025, would you consider Zen2 as your CPU?

 

[proandrad]

Just hope this isn’t a small upgrade. Give us a $999.99 pro console; I can’t go back to 30fps console gaming.

 

[PeteBull]

Yeah these games are mostly gpu limited

Zen2 is plenty powerful and massive leap over jaguar. Giving a big cpu boost for a mid gen refresh doesn’t make a whole lot of sense

For 30fps gaming definitely 0 need for zen4, indeed, ofc techsavy/enthusiast ppl like many here(including myself ofc) would love as beefy specs as possible, and if it costs 800$- fk it- it only means it will be easier to snag it on day 0(preorder) or day1 without budged conscous casuals trying to get it too =D
Ofc i fully understand sony cant base ps5pr0 specs/their strategy around maniacs like myself and other gaffers, if only, bros, if only =D

If i had any saying in it i would take downclocked 7900xtx and heavily downclocked 7800x3d with stacked cache so mashine is 2,5x stronger from base ps5 and has 1 mode only- quality at solid smooth 60fps with bunch of rt features put on top, hell i would gladly pay 1k bucks/euro for it w/o any 2nd thought, paid 2200 euro for 3080ti in the midle of crypto boom just coz i like that beefness =D

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Higher clock speeds? What else am I missing?

It's hard to take you seriously... but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

You are basing your entire argument or theory on this notion that EVERY game on the PS5 is CPU-limited. When that couldn't be further from the truth. As it stands, and this is the data part, more than 90% of every game on the PS5 currently also has a performance mode that targets 60fps. This is just a fact.

Now the common sense part, being that the base platform will still be the PS5, then any game that can manage to hit a framerate of 45 - 60fps on the PS5, will be able to hit 60fps on the PS5pro. If you know anything about tech, you will know this to be true (this is why its hard to take you seriously because everything I just said is common, general knowledge). Furthermore, this is all ignoring any benefits that having a better GPU or more bandwidth brings to the table.

And lastly, now this is the part that makes me say you have your head in the sand... obviously, there may be that one game or more that will simply not have a performance mode, even on the PS5pro. That game may peak at 40fps and never hit 60... that is a possibility. But it would not be the norm. It would be in the minority. So it's a real head-in-the-sand moment to base an entire argument of a platform's performance on the outlier 5% of titles in that platform's library and conveniently ignore that 95% of titles that will hit that 60fps.

 

[twilo99]

It's hard to take you seriously... but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

You are basing your entire argument or theory on this notion that EVERY game on the PS5 is CPU-limited. When that couldn't be further from the truth. As it stands, and this is the data part, more than 90% of every game on the PS5 currently also has a performance mode that targets 60fps. This is just a fact.

Now the common sense part, being that the base platform will still be the PS5, then any game that can manage to hit a framerate of 45 - 60fps on the PS5, will be able to hit 60fps on the PS5pro. If you know anything about tech, you will know this to be true (this is why its hard to take you seriously because everything I just said is common, general knowledge). Furthermore, this is all ignoring any benefits that having a better GPU or more bandwidth brings to the table.

And lastly, now this is the part that makes me say you have your head in the sand... obviously, there may be that one game or more that will simply not have a performance mode, even on the PS5pro. That game may peak at 40fps and never hit 60... that is a possibility. But it would not be the norm. It would be in the minority. So it's a real head-in-the-sand moment to base an entire argument of a platform's performance on the outlier 5% of titles in that platform's library and conveniently ignore that 95% of titles that will hit that 60fps.

I understand all of that, my question is why use a CPU architecture from 2019 in 2025? It made sense to use Zen2 in 2020, but it makes very little sense to use the same thing 6 years later, and since you know a lot about tech, you would also know that 6 years in CPU development is a VERY long time.

Of course the devs will make the games work on it, thay can technically make those game run on Zen2 in 2030, but why bottleneck the whole system like that.. it makes very little sense to me.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

Just hope this isn’t a small upgrade. Give us a $999.99 pro console; I can’t go back to 30fps console gaming.

Nope.

If one truly wants a machine that guarantees higher fps, it's time to invest in a capable PC. A $1000 console is not happening nor should it.

 

[Mr Moose]

I understand all of that, my question is why use a CPU architecture from 2019 in 2025? It made sense to use Zen2 in 2020, but it makes very little sense to use the same thing 6 years later, and since you know a lot about tech, you would also know that 6 years in CPU development is a VERY long time.

Of course the devs will make the games work on it, thay can technically make those game run on Zen2 in 2030, but why bottleneck the whole system like that.. it makes very little sense to me.

You know next year isn't 2025, right?

 

[PeteBull]

I understand all of that, my question is why use a CPU architecture from 2019 in 2025? It made sense to use Zen2 in 2020, but it makes very little sense to use the same thing 6 years later, and since you know a lot about tech, you would also know that 6 years in CPU development is a VERY long time.

Of course the devs will make the games work on it, thay can technically make those game run on Zen2 in 2030, but why bottleneck the whole system like that.. it makes very little sense to me.

Cost effectiveness, simple as that, look at the price of zen3 based r7 5700x https://pcpartpicker.com/product/JmhFf7/amd-ryzen-7-5700x-34-ghz-8-core-processor-100-100000926wof 178usd retail.
Now lets compare to zen4 based r7 7700 https://pcpartpicker.com/product/dXmmP6/amd-ryzen-7-7700-36-ghz-8-core-processor-100-100000592box 329bucks cheapest

Thats some massive price difference right there, meaning u definitely will have to add 100$ to ps5pr0 if its on zen4 instead of zen2/zen3( both are on am4, zen4 tho is already much newer and more expensive am5), many of gaffers would love it, but for those casuals 500 vs 600usd is big gap.

 

[Thedtrain]

 

[twilo99]

You know next year isn't 2025, right?

Isn't this supposed to be a "holiday 2024" release? That would make it the predominant hardware in 2025, which means you will be gaming on a zen2 CPU in 2025 and probably 2026.

Cost effectiveness, simple as that, look at the price of zen3 based r7 5700x https://pcpartpicker.com/product/JmhFf7/amd-ryzen-7-5700x-34-ghz-8-core-processor-100-100000926wof 178usd retail.
Now lets compare to zen4 based r7 7700 https://pcpartpicker.com/product/dXmmP6/amd-ryzen-7-7700-36-ghz-8-core-processor-100-100000592box 329bucks cheapest

Thats some massive price difference right there, meaning u definitely will have to add 100$ to ps5pr0 if its on zen4 instead of zen2/zen3( both are on am4, zen4 tho is already much newer and more expensive am5), many of gaffers would love it, but for those casuals 500 vs 600usd is big gap.

Right, unfortunately catering to that low price point is the reason why consoles are always stuck using components that are generations behind..

Give gafers the option to buy a $800-900 PlayStation with Zen4/7800xt type performance and they will be all over it.

Just hope this isn’t a small upgrade. Give us a $999.99 pro console; I can’t go back to 30fps console gaming.

Why haven't Sony or Microsoft experimented with a high end console that is not as compromised as what we are used to? Hasn't Nvidia proved that gamers will pay for performance?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Give gafers the option to buy a $800-900 PlayStation with Zen4/7800xt type performance and they will be all over it.

Some.

Others don't even want to pay for games.

 

[Mr Moose]

Isn't this supposed to be a "holiday 2024" release? That would make it the predominant hardware in 2025, which means you will be gaming on a zen2 CPU in 2025 and probably 2026.

Yeah, just like a PS5/Series consoles. Do you think they will stop selling those in late 2024 when the Pro comes out?
Do you think PS4 Pro (2016)/One X (2017) upgraded to a new CPU?

 

[twilo99]

Some.

Others don't even want to pay for games.

Make it a poll! I'll bet you its way more than you think..

Paying for games? Sounds archaic...

 

[DeepEnigma]

Make it a poll! I'll bet you its way more than you think..

Paying for games? Sounds archaic...

You'll get your major CPU upgrade when the PS6 comes out. Everything will be okay, no cause for concern.

 

[twilo99]

Yeah, just like a PS5/Series consoles. Do you think they will stop selling those in late 2024 when the Pro comes out?
Do you think PS4 Pro (2016)/One X (2017) upgraded to a new CPU?

Of course not.. I am advocating for more expensive options so people who want newer hardware can have it if they wish

You'll get your CPU upgrade when the PS6 comes out. Everything will be okay, no cause for concern.

You are just conditioned that way because that's what console manufactures have been doing for decades...

 

[DeepEnigma]

You are just conditioned that way because that's what console manufactures have been doing for decades...

Oh console manufacturer, please sell us $1K boxes, said only us minority of people, ever.

You want to spend more, there's the PC with the $1500-$2K GPU upgrade cycle. Since they conditioned them to do so as well.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Technically... that's not how that ".5" monicker works. The PS5pro, can't be based on RDNA 3.5 which is very different from RDNA3 because that GPU doesn't exist. When we say something is "3.5" it means it's based on RDNA3 (in this case) but has some features that may be present in RDNA4 or not even in any RDNA GPU period. Again, in this case, this would be an RDNA3 GPU with RT cores from RDNA4, without the infinity cache of RDNA2/3/4 and maybe some dedicated ML hardware all on a 4nm process than no RDNA3 based GPU is on.

And no... the closest thing to the PS5pro would be the 7800XT being that that GPU has 60 CUs. So whether the PS5pro has 64CU but ends up with 60 active, or 60CU but ends up with 56 active, the 7800XT is still the best GPU to measure the PS5 against.

As it stands, on 5nm, the GCD of the 7800XT (meaning we are not taking into account the infinity cache and mem controllers) is 200mm2. So on a 4nm process that could be around 170mm2. Then, throw in the CPU, I/O complex, 256-bit memory bus, and likely bigger CUs to accommodate the 3rd gen RT cores... and you end up with an APU of around 300mm2+.

PS5 Pro doesn't officially exist either. My point is PS5 Pro GPU won't be any of current GPU already on the market (why should it be?). Theorically that GPU will be 7800XT successor, they could call it 8800XT. Both GPUs should be very different, one with 2 Shader engines and 64CUs, the other with 3 Shader engines and 60CUs. The whole caches architecture should be re-made to feed 64CUs with only 2 shader engines.

 

[Crayon]

Would be a massive shame if they don’t up the cpu (I don’t think we need a memory upgrade) but I’m not expecting much

The cpu may be new in the sense if they take advantage of a smaller node and clock it up. That's not much of an upgrade but if they decide it doesn't need anymore it'll need to get proven when the games come out.

If I had to guess rn, I'd say games still manage 60fps but not increases world density settings, which is most of what a much better CPU would allow

It's got to do stuff that doesn't effect the design of the regular game, so even turning up world density (more cars, pedestrians, etc) might not even be on the table since you could argue it affects the gameplay.

What I want to see if is how much weight these supposed improved features can carry. It can have twice the raster power but in a lot of cases that's not going to get you much as far as on-screen impact. If the upscaling is real and the rt hardware is real, future games that make better use of rt, being able to run multiple effects could really make a difference in a game's look.

Avatar is promising because they took the little rt performance they had to work with and made a difference you can appreciate. More games like that could make a pro that focuses on rt more useful. But if games keep using it for shadows and ao and stuff, it will still be unimpressive.

 

[saintjules]

Give gafers the option to buy a $800-900 PlayStation with Zen4/7800xt type performance and they will be all over it.

Some.

Others don't even want to pay for games.

I laugh every time (timestamp).

 

[leizzra]

Why haven't Sony or Microsoft experimented with a high end console that is not as compromised as what we are used to? Hasn't Nvidia proved that gamers will pay for performance?

The answer is pretty simple - look at the numbers of those cards and then at the consoles numbers. Casual gamers (and some hardcore ones too) won’t buy this expensive hardware for games. End of story.

Even then - why do you want a expensive upgrade, if even less expensive ones weren’t utilized. PS5 will still be a base configuration so Pro will be utilized in some easy ways. More expensive hardware would be even bigger waste (like XOX was in my opinion).

The best way would be if the next gen consoles would cost from the start those high prices. As stated though it won’t happen. In theory Sony and MS could have adopted the approach that they are making two SKUs from the start and force the industry into making two versions of a game (like PC config). But this is very risky and MS already made an error.

Also one of the strengths of the consoles was that they had single configuration. You are making a game for a specific hardware. Simple end effective. More hardware means more work for devs and QA.

 

[twilo99]

Oh console manufacturer, please sell us $1K boxes, said only us minority of people, ever.

You want to spend more, there's the PC with the $1500-$2K GPU upgrade cycle. Since they conditioned them to do so as well.

That's exactly it.. the PC market has shown that gamers have a very real thirst for performance, and I don't see why that can't be replicated on the console side.

The answer is pretty simple - look at the numbers of those cards and then at the consoles numbers. Casual gamers (and some hardcore ones too) won’t buy this expensive hardware for games. End of story.

Even then - why do you want a expensive upgrade, if even less expensive ones weren’t utilized. PS5 will still be a base configuration so Pro will be utilized in some easy ways. More expensive hardware would be even bigger waste (like XOX was in my opinion).

The best way would be if the next gen consoles would cost from the start those high prices. As stated though it won’t happen. In theory Sony and MS could have adopted the approach that they are making two SKUs from the start and force the industry into making two versions of a game (like PC config). But this is very risky and MS already made an error.

Also one of the strengths of the consoles was that they had single configuration. You are making a game for a specific hardware. Simple end effective. More hardware means more work for devs and QA.

Nah, I don't buy it.. until someone tests the market for a high end console and fails I don't think you can make such conclusions.

 

[DeepEnigma]

That's exactly it.. the PC market has shown that gamers have a very real thirst for performance, and I don't see why that can't be replicated on the console side.

Actually, it doesn't. Thirst and affordable application are two different things.

 

[Mr Moose]

That's exactly it.. the PC market has shown that gamers have a very real thirst for performance, and I don't see why that can't be replicated on the console side.

Most TVs are 60Hz, 120Hz are starting to become more common but 60 still leads.

 

[Gaiff]

That's exactly it.. the PC market has shown that gamers have a very real thirst for performance, and I don't see why that can't be replicated on the console side.

Ask Sony who almost crashed and burned by pricing their premium console at $600.

The R&D and associated costs with developing a machine you'll sell for $800 don't make sense in the console space.

 

[twilo99]

Ask Sony who almost crashed and burned by pricing their premium console at $600.

The R&D and associated costs with developing a machine you'll sell for $800 don't make sense in the console space.

I'm not saying that the high end option should be the only option.. "option" being the key word.

 

[twilo99]

Actually, it doesn't. Thirst and affordable application are two different things.

Not mutually exclusive.. you can cover both ends of the spectrum with a 2 or 3 SKUs