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[Lucie Goosey]

And how do you suggest they have the money to continue to provide the games you want?

The answer is not:

Make more single player games
Do day and date on PC

That won't be enough. They need continuous revenue streams as their operating profit is razor thin.

Add in that Microsoft will be aggressively trying to disassociate COD from PlayStation and that income gets less and less too.

Is it though?

Care to provide what their operating profits are?

Because they've been in this business for 20+ years now and have grown exceptionally.

Also, we mine as well include failed expenses such as PSVR2 and these GAAS games, because they are eating away at their profits.

 

[Topher]

He is kinda of right.. you already saw what happens when we say they have fucking nothing SP/FIRST Party announced for the whole of 2024 ... its a bunch of spinning and "its all fine" comments

Sure, but there is also a bunch of "WTF, Sony?" There is also a bunch of "its all fine" nonsense when Xbox gets negative news as well. He wants to pretend that all the "doom and gloom" only ever applies to Xbox while Sony gets nothing but sunshine and roses. It's bullshit.

 

[gerth666]

It isn't about the GAAS necessarily It's the 30% of every fallout, elder scrolls, doom, crash etc they'd make. Microsoft will also aggressively be trying to take COD gamers to their platform. That's a lot of money lost that they currently didn't have to work for.

I get what your saying, and do understand why they're trying to make their own successful gaas, but as a traditional playstation fan I'm not happy with it. 12 games is overkill to me, I'd much prefer them to invest more in single player, and not their traditional stuff. More variety like classic playstation. They have so many IPS they could bring back. And I'll say it again they currently make loads of profit as is, so why should we as consumer's care about that, we're not shareholders

 

[Little Chicken]

Imagine all of your in-house studios being tied up with TWELVE GaaS titles... messy.

I can only imagine how much "doom and gloom" would be here on GAF if Xbox would came with statement "we delayed 6 out of 12 games."

"Incompetence"
"Xbox can't manage their studios"

With Sony it will be "they know it takes time to release great games"

300 pages of the same crap memes that only the Playstation discord could find funny.

 

[Buggy Loop]

The aftermath of Jim's organic growth

 

[Punished Miku]

Sure, but there is also a bunch of "WTF, Sony?" There is also a bunch of "its all fine" nonsense when Xbox gets negative news as well. He wants to pretend that all the "doom and gloom" only ever applies to Xbox while Sony gets nothing but sunshine and roses. It's bullshit.

Not that delving into any of this is ever productive, but all you have to do to make it true is change your statements from absolute statements to one of degrees and you fix it. Almost any absolute statement is false on a true/false test automatically.

So yes, Sony gets shit and Xbox gets some compliments. But the degree to which you see these things play out is different. This isn't a secret to anyone. Less people on here own Xbox, and Nintendo products. It's predominantly a PC and PS fanbase on here.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Sony confirms it’s delayed half of its 12 planned live service games | VGC

The company wants to “ensure [these games] are enjoyed and liked by gamers for a long time”…

www.videogameschronicle.com

Bungie doing overtime carrying an axe.

By the time the other 6 are ready, it might be in time for PS6 release.

 

[Heisenberg007]

To release 12 games by FY25 was a pipedream anyway. We all saw it coming.

It's more important for these games to meet PlayStation's usual single-player quality, so I'm glad Sony isn't rushing them.

 

[mrmustard]

There is a lot of difference. 90+ is a category for special games that will remember forever, like FH, Halo1-3, Gears1, God of War, Last of Us, Bloodborne, Zelda Mario, Gta, Rdr.
80+ is for good games but no incredible.

But the difference is their fans. Nintendo and Playstation fans demands high quality games instead MS fans are fine with 70-80 games if they are "free" on gamepass. That's why MS will never change.

That was once when we had much more variety in the ratings. Since nowadays AAAs are almost always mid to high 80s, the 90 isn't special anymore. To me special and exceptional games start at 94-95.
It's not impossible that Spider-Man 2 drops to a 89 with some late reviews. What then? Not remembered forever anymore?

If you think the 90 is a magical barrier that makes a game exceptional, so be it. I would have agreed in the 90s, but today my opionion is different.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

GaaS was never the salutary future.
There was a gold-rush atmosphere because there were / are some titles that have gone through the roof.
The success of these games could not be predicted in advance and it was "luck", ultimately also because the concepts were new.
After years of being flooded with GaaS by money-hungry publishers, these games are nothing special anymore and people realize that.
Of course, a lot of money is still being made with them and successful GaaS games will continue to be launched, but you can't seriously believe that you can throw 12 (!) games onto the market and the gaming public will be so stupid as to accept them all with a kissing hand and fuel them with money.

This post epitomizes what many of y'all get wrong about Live Service.

Live Service is not a genre.

The people who play Palia are not the same people who play GT7, and they are not the same as those who play The Finals.

PlayStation is creating 12 Live Service games that will have very little overlap.

They're playing Battleship. A B2 target will be followed by a F9 target, which will be followed by a C8 target. If you know Milton Bradleys Battleship, you understand what Jim Ryan is doing.

Japan has historically always had a Navy that punched well above its weight. PlayStations Live Service shock and awe is an extension of that.

 

[Topher]

Not that delving into any of this is ever productive, but all you have to do to make it true is change your statements from absolute statements to one of degrees and you fix it. Almost any absolute statement is false on a true/false test automatically.

So yes, Sony gets shit and Xbox gets some compliments. But the degree to which you see these things play out is different. This isn't a secret to anyone. Less people on here own Xbox, and Nintendo products. It's predominantly a PC and PS fanbase on here.

Sure. Disproving the absolute statements previously made was exactly my point. Xbox is definitely the minority platform here (and everywhere else, frankly), but it also isn't a secret to anyone that Xbox fans make up a very vocal segment of this forum. Regardless, generalizing the forum in such a polarizing way is, as you say, never productive.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

It's more important for these games to meet PlayStation's usual single-player quality, so I'm glad Sony isn't rushing them.

Fairgame$, Concord etc.

Is this gonna be Sony SP quality?

 

[Calverz]

So when we getting the horizon multiplayer game?

 

[DrFigs]

This post epitomizes what many of y'all get wrong about Live Service.

Live Service is not a genre.

The people who play Palia are not the same people who play GT7, and they are not the same as those who play The Finals.

PlayStation is creating 12 Live Service games that will have very little overlap.

They're playing Battleship. A B2 target will be followed by a F9 target, which will be followed by a C8 target. If you know Milton Bradleys Battleship, you understand what Jim Ryan is doing.

Japan has historically always had a Navy that punched well above its weight. PlayStations Live Service shock and awe is an extension of that.

keep fighting the good fight brother. there's so much negativity about playstation doing something new. you simply hate to see it

 

[iHaunter]

I can only imagine how much "doom and gloom" would be here on GAF if Xbox would came with statement "we delayed 6 out of 12 games."

"Incompetence"
"Xbox can't manage their studios"

With Sony it will be "they know it takes time to release great games"

Yeah but Xbox hasn't really a good game in 10+ years. Even their premier games like Halo and Starfield were mildly received. Sony at least has had excellently rated and revered first party games for the better part of a decade.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

keep fighting the good fight brother. there's so much negativity about playstation doing something new. you simply hate to see it

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Sure, but there is also a bunch of "WTF, Sony?" There is also a bunch of "its all fine" nonsense when Xbox gets negative news as well. He wants to pretend that all the "doom and gloom" only ever applies to Xbox while Sony gets nothing but sunshine and roses. It's bullshit.

People are way easier on Sony. Their are doom and gloom threads but they are most people bitching about something, eg their lack of communication etc. Otherwise it's seated on pedestal for most part.

There is good reason for that. Let me give an example.

Last year I played Grounded. After thinking about it for long, I feel it was 10/10 experience. So good and memorable, it's imprinted on my mind, all good stuff it does.

But that narrative won't fly. People dismiss it calling GAAS. I can't prove otherwise with high metascore or GOTY awards. Extension of that is, Xbox hasn't made a good game since X360 days.

I don't care what people think online, but let's call a spade a spade.

 

[Topher]

People are way easier on Sony. Their are doom and gloom threads but they are most people bitching about something, eg their lack of communication etc. Otherwise it's seated on pedestal for most part.

There is good reason for that. Let me give an example.

Last year I played Grounded. After thinking about it for long, I feel it was 10/10 experience. So good and memorable, it's imprinted on my mind, all good stuff it does.

But that narrative won't fly. People dismiss it calling GAAS. I can't prove otherwise with high metascore or GOTY awards. Extension of that is, Xbox hasn't made a good game since X360 days.

I don't care what people think online, but let's call a spade a spade.

Eh….and then you have all the folks dismissing PlayStation games as “movie games”. Works both ways.

 

[tmlDan]

I think there's enough evidence in market now to use in order to create a good live service game. The original approach they had of "12 games see what hits" shouldn't be something they do when quality is their brand.

take your time, create good and quality live service games and I am confident it will be successful.

also, why are xbox fans crying in this thread. wtf is going on, get over it guys lol

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

People are way easier on Sony. Their are doom and gloom threads but they are most people bitching about something, eg their lack of communication etc. Otherwise it's seated on pedestal for most part.

There is good reason for that. Let me give an example.

Last year I played Grounded. After thinking about it for long, I feel it was 10/10 experience. So good and memorable, it's imprinted on my mind, all good stuff it does.

But that narrative won't fly. People dismiss it calling GAAS. I can't prove otherwise with high metascore or GOTY awards. Extension of that is, Xbox hasn't made a good game since X360 days.

I don't care what people think online, but let's call a spade a spade.

I see this too.

PlayStation, smartly, identified what made a high Metascore game, and put most of their focus into that formula over the last decade. 20 hour games with high production values and a heavy emphasis on story is like catnip to people who gravitate towards games criticism.

XBox didn't have that focus.

That resulted in an advantage amongst the console warrior types online. "The game I prefer is better than the game you prefer because 92 is a higher number than 81."

That's an effective tactic because both sides have to admit that Metacritic/Opencritic had a certain amount of objectivity...when clearly they don't. Catnip will always appeal to those types.

That being said, the power of Metacritic + Opencritic diminishes with each passing year. More and more gamers are playing the games their friends love rather than the games Jeff Gerstmann loves.

 

[jonnyp]

No wonder heads are rolling over there

 

[Topher]

I see this too.

PlayStation, smartly, identified what made a high Metascore game, and put most of their focus into that formula over the last decade. 20 hour games with high production values and a heavy emphasis on story is like catnip to people who gravitate towards games criticism.

XBox didn't have that focus.

That resulted in an advantage amongst the console warrior types online. "The game I prefer is better than the game you prefer because 92 is a higher number than 81."

That's an effective tactic because both sides have to admit that Metacritic/Opencritic had a certain amount of objectivity...when clearly they don't. Catnip will always appeal to those types.

That being said, the power of Metacritic + Opencritic diminishes with each passing year. More and more gamers are playing the games their friends love rather than the games Jeff Gerstmann loves.

Metacritic scores are also trotted out just about every time GT is compared with Forza. Just another warrior tactic that works both ways when it is convenient.

 

[Robb]

Delays aren’t really worrying imo, if it results in better games go for it. I just hope they aren’t in dev-hell.

 

[MScarpa]

And is insanely expensive to make, takes 5 years to do etc. It's high risk all the time with the single player games we enjoy.

It insane to solely pursue a high risk-high reward strategy. Having a mixed portfolio where Sony will get those Single player big hitter incomes periodically with some games that will provide continuous revenue is far wiser.

Alongside that they are growing their PC presence and cautiously growing Mobile.

Their games take a long time, cost a lot of money and they are also expected to be GOTY contenders for the most part. Diversification will help them continue to achieve that.

So you're saying without GaaS, Sony will be unable to be profitable in gaming!?

 

[R3TRODYCE]

Meh their first party output has been trash this gen anyway.

 

[Games of Today]

Right? I don't think Sony know either, since they clearly aren't interested in delivering these kinds of games now.

The level of fidelity their first party studios could deliver in an FPS game would be unparalleled.

 

[ZoukGalaxy]

Let's hope it's delayed to the same HL3 release date.

 

[FoxMcChief]

Meh their first party output has been trash this gen anyway.

Covid fucked a lot of stuff up.

 

[FIREKNIGHT2029]

I don't give a shit about live service games either way but it's good news that they are prioritizing quality.

 

[StealthGoblin]

So you're saying without GaaS, Sony will be unable to be profitable in gaming!?

They have incredibly high production, hardware and R&D costs. The last time I checked they had massive revenue but were operating on a 15% profit whereas a company like Activision was making about 30%

 

[Clear]

People are way easier on Sony. Their are doom and gloom threads but they are most people bitching about something, eg their lack of communication etc. Otherwise it's seated on pedestal for most part.

Probably because Sony have been reliable for the last decade. They out out big AAA exclusives almost every year, which by and large review and sell well. This combined with access to most big-name third-party releases keeps their audience mostly happy.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Meh their first party output has been trash this gen anyway.

Well that's certainly an unusual take. I've been eating good.

 

[Kagoshima_Luke]

Neu Sony makes me sad. I know a lot of people like their stuff, but for me their PS5 output peaked at Demons Souls on launch.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I think their biggest problem is their approach.

There are some obvious avenues to approaching making some live service games that I think would have been successful and varied in content

1. PlayStation Home, PlayStation Home PC, PlayStation Home VR
2. Dreams PS5, PC, VR
3. SOCOM US Navy Seals
4. SingStar + Sound Studio, PS5 + VR + PC
5. Gran Turismo 7 expanded to PC
6. MLB The Show expanded to PC
7. TLOU Online PS4, PS5, PC
8. Warhawk/Starhahwk PS5 PC
9. Twisted Metal PS5, PC
10. Everybody's Golf PS5, Mobile, PC, VR

That's 10 that in my estimation make a lot of sense and honestly I think they need to invest in a CRPG or WRPG with online elements as well as their own JRPG with online elements, maybe something with Level 5.

I could see each one of these being a hit in their own right.

 

[YukiOnna]

12 Live Service games? I forgot how hard they decided to pivot and waste their time on that, it's lucky their 3rd party monopolies carry them for me. No matter how much they spend on reviewing them, I won't give them the time of day since their current view on what's interesting is incompatible with mine. You can argue profits all day, but that was their own decision to chase trends when they already had solid IP's to continue their usual path. I was hoping the change in leadership meant they'd give up and put some meaning back in WWS, but maybe next generation.

I miss Shu and Andrew House

 

[Drizzlehell]

Twelve?

TWELVE?

Holy shit. Just stop, Sony. Cancel.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Nobody. I just think that this double standard is pretty hilarious.

It's also funny because you can't even deny that it would not be the case...

What's even funnier is your persecution complex.

Anyways we should all learn from your lesson.

 

[Represent.]

Jim Ryan fucked this company so hard. Why they didn’t get rid of him the instant he put this god awful plan together is beyond me.

12 freaking live service games.
Literally the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the fanbase asked for lmao

So now they have 6 delayed/cancelled games, what are those studios gonna do now? Just hang in limbo? Start something new from scratch?

This gen will be very light on Sony 1st Party games.

Thanks Jim. Thanks Herman. You’re both retarded

 

[FoxMcChief]

The fact that they haven’t cancelled at least half is still a bad sign of poor leadership. These latest regimes are standing on the shoulders of better people and coasting on their successes.

 

[Danjin44]

I find your idealism endearing and I wish that was true (it probably is with many indie studios), but once things get to a corporate level, the artistic ambition diminishes quickly and gets replaced by sales expectations and such. I really wish this wasn't the case, but cynical old me hasn't found any evidence to the contrary.

I give you example: Vanillaware could have made another 2D action RPG to make more money but instead they decided to make much more risky game like 13 Sentinels because they were passionate about it.

Even FromSoftware could have made another Soul game but instead they decided to make Armored Core VI even tho it’s very niche series especially in west but they still decided to risk it because they are passionate about the series.

You don’t make this type of decision just to make money.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Just don't delay the Killzone and Socom games.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Some of these quietly cancelled.

 

[nowhat]

I give you example: Vanillaware could have made another 2D action RPG to make more money but instead they decided to make much more risky game like 13 Sentinels because they were passionate about it.

Even FromSoftware could have made another Soul game but instead they decided to make Armored Core VI even tho it’s very niche series especially in west but they still decided to risk it because they are passionate about the series.

You don’t make this type of decision just to make money.

You're kind of proving my point here. Vanillaware has (as per Wikipedia) 29 employees. Granted, that was four years ago, but I think it's quite safe to say they are within AA category at best. From Software has some 400 employees, so we're definitely getting into AAA territory here, but their success allows them to still remain independent (not going forward with the Demon's Souls IP is probably Shuhei Yoshidas greatest mistake ever). But once you're under the corporate umbrella, be it Sony, Nintendo or MS (or some of the other larger publishers), things get different. I wish this wasn't the case, but it seems to be.

 

[Punished Miku]

You're kind of proving my point here. Vanillaware has (as per Wikipedia) 29 employees. Granted, that was four years ago, but I think it's quite safe to say they are within AA category at best. From Software has some 400 employees, so we're definitely getting into AAA territory here, but their success allows them to still remain independent (not going forward with the Demon's Souls IP is probably Shuhei Yoshidas greatest mistake ever). But once you're under the corporate umbrella, be it Sony, Nintendo or MS (or some other larger publishers), things get different. I wish this wasn't the case, but it seems to be.

Not always. Pentiment for example. Ninja Theory is working on some mental illness game (aside from Hellblade). Psychonauts 2. Whatever inXile is making. I think they actually put out a fair bit of passion projects now.

It used to be that 1st party would purposely view their role as more of a patron, funding some passion projects and niche products because they get all the money from being the platform holder and can take more financial risks that may not pay off. Nintendo put out 4 entries of Pikmin before it really took off because Miyamoto loves it. Sony used to put out lots of games like this like The Last Guardian, Puppeteer, Echochrome.

They are businesses but they employ people that care about art as well and get to sometimes take a few chances. Obviously this is more rare in massive AAA games, but that's not where the conversation started.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Some of these quietly cancelled.

Sony: We're still working on all 12 Live Service games.

Thirty7ven: They quietly canceled a few of them.

SMH

 

[Danjin44]

You're kind of proving my point here. Vanillaware has (as per Wikipedia) 29 employees. Granted, that was four years ago, but I think it's quite safe to say they are within AA category at best. From Software has some 400 employees, so we're definitely getting into AAA territory here, but their success allows them to still remain independent (not going forward with the Demon's Souls IP is probably Shuhei Yoshidas greatest mistake ever). But once you're under the corporate umbrella, be it Sony, Nintendo or MS (or some of the other larger publishers), things get different. I wish this wasn't the case, but it seems to be.

you can even look at AAA Company like Capcom that makes niche games like Ace Attorney and Ghost Trick and even Nintendo decided bring back very niche game like Another Code, these type of games don’t make money they still decide do it anyway.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

And how do you suggest they have the money to continue to provide the games you want?

The answer is not:

Make more single player games
Do day and date on PC

That won't be enough. They need continuous revenue streams as their operating profit is razor thin.

Add in that Microsoft will be aggressively trying to disassociate COD from PlayStation and that income gets less and less too.

Their profit margins are not razor thin. It's huge in software. And that includes first party revenue and third party cuts.

They make around $2 billion profit per year in the Games division and good chunk of those sales are on PS5 hardware which they probably break even or barely make any profits. Exclude the hardware part and anything software related they make a killing. They also just raised the price of PS+ subs 33%. That alone will add about $1 billion in pure profit assuming all gamers stay. Of course the big boost wont be effective in totality since lots of games are already stacked on current memberships, but when it's time to renew each subber will pay an extra $20-40 per annual sub.

When anyone brings up total games division with tons of hardware sales built in driving down profits, that's like saying McDonalds operates on razor thin margins since both McD and Sony's game division both have about the same net profit % of around 10% or so. McD's might have a 12% margin overall, but you got tons of overhead and lease costs etc..... But the margin of burgers, fries and fountain pop is giant. That high margin food and drink is like software sales. Its doesn't mean every watered down cup of Coke they sell only makes them 12% margin. It's probably like 90% margin. But what drags down the profits are all the equipment leases, property costs and people.

 

[Crayon]

Still makes me laugh the idea of bungie vistiting studios and indescriminatly wrecking shop. "Shit, shit, shit, garbage, shit..."

This could have said "It's Jimbover". Big comedy miss, here.

 

[Moriarty1889]

Waste of time and resources for Playstation studios. Their strength is and always has been single player story driven games.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Their profit margins are not razor thin. It's huge in software. And that includes first party revenue and third party cuts.

They make around $2 billion profit per year in the Games division and good chunk of those sales are on PS5 hardware which they probably break even or barely make any profits. Exclude the hardware part and anything software related they make a killing. They also just raised the price of PS+ subs 33%. That alone will add about $1 billion in pure profit assuming all gamers stay. Of course the big boost wont be effective in totality since lots of games are already stacked on current memberships, but when it's time to renew each subber will pay an extra $20-40 per annual sub.

When anyone brings up total games division with tons of hardware sales built in driving down profits, that's like saying McDonalds operates on razor thin margins since both McD and Sony's game division both have about the same net profit % of around 10% or so. McD's might have a 12% margin overall, but you got tons of overhead and lease costs etc..... But the margin of burgers, fries and fountain pop is giant. That high margin food and drink is like software sales. Its doesn't mean every watered down cup of Coke they sell only makes them 12% margin. It's probably like 90% margin. But what drags down the profits are all the equipment leases, property costs and people.

Their R&D spend is huge
Their marketing spend is huge
Their studios cost a lot to run
They aren't making much money on PS5 hardware
Running PSN is expensive

Yes they make a lot of money on 3rd party games but that gets eaten up very quickly.