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The Japanese studios I grew up loving are all dead to me now and I'm sad

I don't think putting the mainline Monster Hunter sequel onto Nintendo systems and having them help to promote it outside of Japan is mishandling a franchise when ten years on Sony consoles saw it sell sod-all outside of Japan. That sounds like a good idea when deciding to go with either the successor to the DS or PSP if your brief is 'grow franchise overseas, it's reached saturation at home'.

Do you think any series that ends up on Nintendo systems is being mishandled due to to hardware specs rather than sales potential?

Why is it okay for Nintendo to throw money at Monster Hunter exclusive yet when Microsoft does it with EA/Titanfall they're evil and also the devil.

It's the same thing. I don't want to own Nintendo hardware for multiple reasons but I want to play one of my favorite Capcom (not owned by Nintendo) video game series. If you can't see why that upsets fans and makes them angry at both companies I highly suggest checking out this thread, because again I'm not seeing much difference in these two moneyhat deals.
 

Koppai

Member
I don't even care about Capcom or Konami these days, they suck ass.

Marvelous, Nintendo, Atlus, Sony, Platinum, Grasshopper, etc <3
 

Riposte

Member
Why is it okay for Nintendo to throw money at Monster Hunter exclusive yet when Microsoft does it with EA/Titanfall they're evil and also the devil.

It's the same thing. I don't want to own Nintendo hardware for multiple reasons but I want to play one of my favorite Capcom (not owned by Nintendo) video game series. If you can't see why that upsets fans and makes them angry at both companies I highly suggest checking out this thread, because again I'm not seeing much difference in these two moneyhat deals.

People shouldn't be so upset at the Titanfall deal either. Instead of making one example sound less lame, they both sound lame.
 

Linkhero1

Member
For me, Capcom and Konami fell. I haven't bought a single game from either of them for the past few years. I don't know what happened but I have a feeling it has more to do with management than anything. I don't fully agree regarding SE. I can see that their quality did dip a bit but their handheld releases have been decent.
 
Why is it okay for Nintendo to throw money at Monster Hunter exclusive yet when Microsoft does it with EA/Titanfall they're evil and also the devil.

It's the same thing. I don't want to own Nintendo hardware for multiple reasons but I want to play one of my favorite Capcom (not owned by Nintendo) video game series. If you can't see why that upsets fans and makes them angry at both companies I highly suggest checking out this thread, because again I'm not seeing much difference in these two moneyhat deals.

All I see is Sony fans getting mad for some reason.
 
The thing is unlike Capcom and to a lesser extent Konami, SE still has a lot of talented devs. Capcom has lost quite a bit of talent unfortunately.
 

Riposte

Member
The thing is unlike Capcom and to a lesser extent Konami, SE still has a lot of talented devs. Capcom has lost quite a bit of talent unfortunately.

I don't think I've seen anyone on GAF qualified to talk about the talent at any of these Japanese companies. The whole idea of "who makes a game good" is hard to nail down in the first place, but all we know is that there are a select few names that have been beaten into our conscience through years of fan discussion/translated interviews/etc no longer work there. It is why people blame Nomura for games he had very little to do with or use an image of Uematsu to make fun of SE's game design as a meme. "Erm, Mikami + zombie = gud game. I am making big boy videogame talk" *folds arms and nods*
 

akaoni

Banned
"There is nothing permanent except change.
Nothing is permanent except change.
The only constant is change.
Change is the only constant.
Change alone is unchanging."

- Wise guy

I don't have any problems of this sort apart from survival horror I think. Companies not really, I'll rant about every RE that comes out and be done with it. They're just games, but there's a scary amount of people whose entire identity resides on the reception of series that started 20~ years ago.
 
I don't think I've seen anyone on GAF qualified to talk about the talent at any of these Japanese companies. The whole idea of "who makes a game good" is hard to nail down in the first place, but all we know is that there are a select few names that have been beaten into our conscience through years of fan discussion/translated interviews/etc no longer work there. It is why people blame Nomura for games he had very little to do with or use an image of Uematsu to make fun of SE's game design as a meme. "Erm, Mikami + zombie = gud game. I am making big boy videogame talk" *folds arms and nods*

And it overlooks the mindfield of bad leadership, bad conditions, bad goals, and bad receptions that saps at creativity, and reward for creative, well-executed endeavors (hence, the situation in the OP).
 

abadguy

Banned
Kill la Kill game by Platinum Games. With Trigger doing the OP.

Too bad licensed games never have good treatment.

To amazing to ever come to pass, sadly. I don't know if the world could handle that much batshit anyway. Surely the universe would implode into some sort of singularity the second the disc was put into a console!

The only studio I really miss is Smilebit.

They were the best thing about sega toward the end of the DC and beginning of the Xbox. Who knows how great they could have truly been if they were allowed to continue. Also i loved Gunvalkyrie's controls, fuck the haters!
 

spirity

Member
In the 70's I played mostly American games on the Atari.
In the 80's I played mostly UK games on the Spectrum.
In the 90's I played mostly Japanese games on the Playstation.
In the 2000's and beyond I play mostly western games on the PC.

Maybe I'm more adaptable than most. Or maybe I'm not as into gaming as most. But things change, markets change. I can't find a reason to be sad about that, I embrace the changes and I'm hoping there's another shift. Maybe it will come from Brazil, or Australia, or India. Who knows, I just hope the market does shift again to someone else. I admit to having some emotional attachment to games in the past, and by that extention publishers and developers who've made games I've loved. But only up to a point. I'd much rather look forward than back.
 

Village

Member
"There is nothing permanent except change.
Nothing is permanent except change.
The only constant is change.
Change is the only constant.
Change alone is unchanging."

- Wise guy

I don't have any problems of this sort apart from survival horror I think. Companies not really, I'll rant about every RE that comes out and be done with it. They're just games, but there's a scary amount of people whose entire identity resides on the reception of series that started 20~ years ago.
Reading threads might allow you to respond to them.

, Sonic is now claimed by weird nerds with animal fetishes,
What the fuck is this shit?
 

lupinko

Member
Probably a little bit of a misread but that's all they really have in the western market.

In Japan they flourish because of pachislot shit.



This coupled with the decline of console popularity in Japan, yeah.

Actually Konami does a lot of slot machine business in countries that have legalized gambling like the US.
 
Interesting as there was a good article tweeted on my Twitter feed the other day that was really relevant to the topic here. Although it's not new, it was the first I had read of it and is basically how Sony is aiming at turning their Japan Studio (ICO, SofC, Ape Escape) into something as big as Sony Santa Monica and the wider difficulties Japanese games development has faced over the last few years.

http://kotaku.com/how-sonys-most-creative-studio-rose-from-the-ashes-1458030068

Honestly, I am extremely happy that Sony is investing in this shake-up. I wish similar things happened at Konami, SE etc. There is nothing bad about Japanese developers returning to the forefront of gaming. I wish for it.
 
Actually Konami does a lot of slot machine business in countries that have legalized gambling like the US.
Konami actually has a bunch of different business divisions, including health clubs and such in Japan and casino games in Vegas. Digital entertainment is just one of their avenues.
 
Kojima & Shinji Mikami are the only old school classic developers still working.

Myamoto no longer directs or develops games.
Hironobu Sakaguchi no longer directs or develops games.
Yu Suzuki is gone.
Yuji Naka is gone.
Rare's Stamper brothers are gone.
Warren Spector & Harvey Smith are formal shells of their former selves.

All the guys that set standards, innovated & pioneered games are no longer making anything.
Now we have 2 bit hacks that only know how to copy the same tired old formulas of Call of Duty scripted set piece-a-thons & Gears of War cover based copy shooters.
 
Kojima & Shinji Mikami are the only old school classic developer still working.

Myamoto no longer directs or develops games.
Hironobu Sakaguchi no longer directs or develops games.
Yu Suzuki is gone.
Yuji Naka is gone.
Rare's Stamper brothers are gone.
Warren Spector & Harvey Smith are formal shells of them former selves.

All the guys that set standards, innovated & pioneered games are no longer making anything.
Now we have 2 bit hacks that only know how to copy the same tired old formulas of Call of Duty scripted set piece-a-thons & Gears of War cover based copy shooters.

b1eDI4w.jpg


He's still rockin' it.

Also, don't confuse what a developer works on with what they wanna work on, or are only capable of.
 

Opiate

Member
First, it might interest people to check these companies' bottom lines. Short story: they're doing okay. Not great -- not booming -- but not typically losing gobs of money and going out of business, either. This indicates that they're actually doing reasonably well. They're just typically doing well in non-traditional-console gaming ways.

Nintendo's recent successes are obvious: one phenomenally successful handheld, one phenomenally successful casual-oriented console, and another reasonably successful handheld. They've done fine, but the success they have had is mostly outside the scope of traditional home consoles.

Konami has opened a series of successful fitness centers and owns a variety of other non-gaming properties.

Sega has moved significantly to 1) Nintendo systems for Sonic and 2) PC DD for almost everything else. They also have pachinko machines.

SquareEnix makes a significant portion of their games for handheld systems and mobile. Their console-oriented development is done mostly by Eidos now, and they seem to be fairly popular, but they aren't Japanese.

Capcom's most profitable series is a 3DS exclusive.

In other words, these companies are mostly doing fine. If you specifically want them to make "core" games and strongly prefer them to be on home consoles then yes, you're mostly out of luck. I'm just hoping people distinguish between "Konami is dying" and "Konami is doing fine but the new stuff they're doing doesn't happen to personally interest me."
 

anaron

Member
Japanese companies don't seem terribly invested in protecting or treating their talent very well.

Something is wrong with the company culture when you let go of people like Sakaguchi, Mikami, Kamiya, Team Silent, etc.
 

traveler

Not Wario
I feel like you could probably do a similar list with the big Western publishers as well, though. At least Japan still has Nintendo and Platinum. There's only a small fraction of the whole development world that actually puts out quality, but, fortunately, our medium is big enough now that even a small fraction means a decent chunk of solid to great titles a year.
 

Some Nobody

Junior Member
OP is full of truth bombs. All the people talking about "adapt" are probably choosing not to accept that the reason most of us haven't...just might be that we feel these aren't proper replacements for what we lost. Persona was never a high-priority J-RPG to me, for instance.
 

ShinMaruku

Member
I don't think they are dead. I just think the market needs a big pick up from somebody. They are not dead they are just creatively and somewhat bugetwisely bankrupt. They few good ones still come out, so I can't call them dead. I think you are looking in the wrong place, if you want what you want to happen, Sony and Nintendo have to make the conditions right for the developers to flock back to where you frequent. Until then you have the mess you have.
 
Kojima & Shinji Mikami are the only old school classic developer still working.

Myamoto no longer directs or develops games.
Hironobu Sakaguchi no longer directs or develops games.
Yu Suzuki is gone.
Yuji Naka is gone.
Rare's Stamper brothers are gone.
Warren Spector & Harvey Smith are formal shells of them former selves.

All the guys that set standards, innovated & pioneered games are no longer making anything.
Now we have 2 bit hacks that only know how to copy the same tired old formulas of Call of Duty scripted set piece-a-thons & Gears of War cover based copy shooters.

What a load of cynical bullshit. There are amazing games every year. You're just too disillusioned about the good ol days to see wtf is happening in this industry now. Now get off my lawn.
 

Sesha

Member
I remember spotting commercials in Sapporo for the DMC4 pachislot game and dying a little inside. I want most of these companies to do well, based on previous efforts, because of a lot of the people that work there, but I want them to do so without relying on short-sighted business decisions and torching part of their consumer fan base. Yes, businesses shouldn't rely on "the fans", but I consider myself (if not once upon a time) a fan, and sometimes, if only sometimes, it's hard not to get a little bit disheartened seeing some of the decisions these companies are making.
 
Thankfully there's other Japanese developers that were able to scratch the itch: Atlus and Falcom, for example.

It is kind of depressing to see where the others have fallen. HD really hit japan hard.

If only Atlus or Falcom had ever made a title I enjoyed.

Also OP neglected to mention the death of Dragon Quest :(
 

Some Nobody

Junior Member
If only Atlus or Falcom had ever made a title I enjoyed.

Also OP neglected to mention the death of Dragon Quest :(

In all fairness the Legend of Heroes/Ys series both seem interesting, but I'm tired of portable games. That's why I'm really excited for this potential Falcom PS4 game.
 
It physically pained me to RttP for FFXIII yesterday. It hurts so badly. So I RttP on Final Fantasy Tactics and then that hurt even more when I realized not only old-Square is dead but also Quest.

Capcom needs to fucking stop trying to be a cookie-cutter me-too western developer. Frank West, RE, just stop. Go back to your roots; we need it.

Namco has been largely ok so I will leave them alone.

No clue what happened to Konami but was never a big Konami fan.

I like Sega solely for Creative Assembly but I wish they'd put out a new Valkyrie and Sakura Wars.

Nintendo is still good in spurts but they need to give Mario, Zelda, and all those cutesy fuckers a rest.
 

IrishNinja

Member
we all know this feel, bro - handhelds and the occasional console gem are the way to go! also do some digging on classic/retro consoles, there's so much we didn't get. im digging through Saturn's library now & look forward to SNK AES/MVS in the future.

Konami - Dead

Capcom - will be revived when they hit gold with RE again

SquareEnix - will be revived when they hit gold with FF again

Sega - Dead in the Japanese sense but a big PC player with Western games

Namco - Dead

Nintendo - will never die

i agree with much of this, Sega isn't entirely dead in the japanese sense as long as they're putting out Yakuza games, even if they're dropping the ball localizing them at the moment (but Atlus will fix this - BELIEVE)

Nintendo and Sega are still pretty great on occasion, and FROM, Atlus and Platinum seem capable of putting out a half-decent game every few years (being generous with Platinum) but yeah, most of the Japanese mega-publishers could shutter and the modern video games landscape wouldn't look all that different. A lot less dated tech, shoddy UIs and archaic design, perhaps.

another gem of a post~

And now you realize that the Dreamcast was their Hail Mary bid for greatness (and it worked).

SEGA's done better than most other big Japanese publishers in recent history, their big competitor (as always) being Namco. For all the atrocious things they've done (targeting western Shining fans for inexplicable reasons), they've compensated with hallmarks in their long company history (M2's recent spate of 3D Classics). Sonic games have been improving and branching in unexpected ways ever since Sonic '06, and the company understands the PC market to a good degree. Not to forget, most folks on NeoGAF would rather play S&AS Transformed than a new Mario Kart, and acquisitions like Atlus and Relic are bound to pay off (provided the part of SEGA managing them doesn't go berserk like the Shining team did). I think SEGA's always going to have trouble because of its chronically-ill internal politics, but to see them survive for so long with so many ups and downs is impressive.

this, on the other hand, was a legit good post on at least one of OP's companies in question
 

Steel

Banned
In other words, these companies are mostly doing fine. If you specifically want them to make "core" games and strongly prefer them to be on home consoles then yes, you're mostly out of luck. I'm just hoping people distinguish between "Konami is dying" and "Konami is doing fine but the new stuff they're doing doesn't happen to personally interest me."

I'm not so sure people are saying the companies are financially dieing, more that they are dieing in the sense of becoming insignificant in the things that they loved them for(big budget console gaming).
 

Famassu

Member
It sounds so stupid to say "publisher X is dead to me", why can't you people just ignore the bad games and get the good ones? Sure, there are plenty of disappointing stuff these publishers have done, but it seems a lot of you whiners are willfully ignoring all the good stuff just to reinfornce some drama queen-ish BS you've come up in your head.


I mean, come on... during the last generation of consoles & handhelds and within the last couple of years...

Capcom
Dragon's Dogma
Last Ranker
several Monster Hunter games
Layton vs. Ace Attorney
Resident Evil Revelations
Ghost Trick
Okamiden
Okami HD
Mega Man: Powered Up!
Ultimate Ghosts 'n Goblins
Bionic Commando ReArmed
Dead Rising
Dead Rising 2
Lost Planet
Lost Planet 2
Remember Me
(Ultimate) Marvel vs. Capcom 3
Street Fighter IV
Ace Attorney 5
Devil May Cry 4
Tatsunoko vs. Capcom
Mega Man 9
Mega Man 10
Zack & Wiki
Resident Evil 5
+ upcoming promising stuff like
Deep Down
hopefully-they've-learned-something-from-RE6 Resident Evil 7
Strider HD

Square Enix
TWEWY
KH:BBS
KH:DDD
KH ReCoded (hey, it's a fun game to play even if in the bigger picture it's a pretty pointless release)
Bravely Default
NieR
Dragon Quest IX
Dragon Quest X
Dragon Quest DS remakes
Tactics Ogre: Let Us Cling Together
Final Fantasy XIV 2.0
KH1.5 HD
FFX | X-2 HD
Theatrhythm
The Last Remnant
Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Ring of Fates
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Echoes of Time
Space Invaders Extreme
Lufia: Curse of the Sinistrals
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: My Life As A King/Dark Lord
Dissidia 012
Crisis Core
Final Fantasy Type-0
+ with upcoming games like
Drakengard III
Theatrhythm Curtain Call
Bravely Second
FFXV
KHIII
Kingdom Hearts 2.5HD

Namco Bandai
Tales of Graces F
Tales of Xillia
Tales of Xillia 2
Tales of Vesperia
Dark Souls
Dark Souls 2
Ace Combat 6
God Eaters Burst
God Eaters 2
Eternal Sonata
Soul Calibur IV & V
Ridge Racer 7
Solatorobo
Beautiful Katamari and other Katamari games
Ni No Kuni
Enslaved
One Piece Pirate Warriors
Naruto: Ultimate Ninja series
Tekken 5: Dark Resurrection

Looking those lists, I can't help but feel all boo-fucking-hoo towards all of you whiners complaining about some kind of imaginary downfall of Japanese publishers. They've made mistakes, handled some franchises badly (though, I don't blame them from trying something different with franchises like Ridge Racer, after 10-15+ years with some of these franchises they SHOULD try something new), not localized some games a lot of people want etc. but it's not like gamers aren't at fault at all. You demand more, yet want to pay less. That isn't sustainable. I know none of you give a shit about the survival of these money-hungry, evil corporations, but you can't expect them to cater to your needs when many of you are so out of sync with reality.

I feel Konami is the only one to really deserve this kind of apathy towards, as they have dropped the ball with Kojima & his team(s) (they don't ever let him do anything else but Metal Gear), screwed up Metal Gear Rising before Platinum came in to save the day, ran both Suikoden and Silent Hill to the ground, have failed to keep up with FIFA with PES, half-assed Zone of the Enders HD Collection (though fixed it for PS3), came up with games like Bomberman Act Zero that raped millions of children's childhood memories, haven't really come up with many new interesting IPs (and failed with the few they did) or successfully kept up old ones at all... Metal Gear Solid & Castlevania: LoS are the only things going on for them at the moment, as far as console gaming goes.
 

Riposte

Member
why can't you people just ignore the bad games and get the good ones?

I agree. That's why you should drop Remember Me, or at least include DmC and Resident Evil 6 if you are going to go that low (or as low as Resident Evil Revelations, etc). :3
 

Dark_castle

Junior Member
Lmao.

So many gloom and doom and emo, cry babies in this thread.

Here's my helpful suggestion:

Vote by your wallet. There's no use whining or crying on NeoGAF, it really gets you nowhere. If X company makes a game that doesn't interest you in the slightest, you ignore it. If X company makes a game that interest you, then buy it. How hard can that be?
 

Famassu

Member
I agree. That's why you should drop Remember Me, or at least include DmC and Resident Evil 6 if you are going that low (or as low as Resident Evil Revelations, etc). :3
I didn't want to include some stuff like XIII-2, RE6 & DmC because even though I personally like XIII-2 & DmC (haven't played RE6) and think they are overall good, enjoyable experiences (not on par with the best in the franchise, but not even near the kind of shitfests some hyperbolic fans claim them to be), I knew it would take away from my arguments in some people's eyes.

And I liked Remember Me. It's got a good setting, a decent female main character and okay combat (playing on hard, you can't just mash buttons but have to really pay attention & figure out the best combos), the memory altering sequences were decently interesting (though they could've done more) and I had a generally good time going through the world set before me. I personally don't hate linear games with a passion, so that aspect didn't really bring down the experience for me.
 

Jack cw

Member
Hard to disagree with too much of the OP. As others have said, Atlus, From, Platinum and of course Nintendo are still keeping the flag flying, but otherwise it's a grim scene.

What happened? My theories / guesses:
1. As games became more complex - both visually and narratively - the cultural differences between Japan and the West that were hidden behind a simple sprite and short dialogue became more and more obvious, and started turning off more and more fans in the west.

From FFX onwards I've felt like I have to endure character designs and dialogue in almost all JRPGs, rather than actually enjoying them. Eventually I pretty much stopped playing the genre in its entirety.

I always used to wonder - 'What if a talented Japanese dev made a game that was utterly seeped in Western/Euro culture, to the point that you couldn't tell it was made in Japan?' Well, FromSoftware answered that question this generation and became one of the most successful and beloved dev houses out there. Add it all up and seems obvious to me that culture is a problem.

2. As games became more complex - in terms of gameplay - they started to fall out of the mainstream in Japan. It's simple phone games that rule the roost now, but I feel like this has been a long time coming - the average Japanese person checked out of complex gaming some years ago, and traditional Japanese game devs have struggled with that reduced audience etc. To compensate it seems like a lot of them decided that rather than trying to rope everyone back in, that they'd focus on niche audiences like otaku. These games are almost impossible to sell outside of that niche, and almost impossible to localise as there aren't a huge amount of Japanophile western otaku.

3. The rise of the AAA anualised mega-game made by western devs who understand the western mass-market mainstream gamer in an instinctual way that Japanese devs simply don't. These games dominate the market to such an extent that the slice of the pie in the West that Japanese devs can reach is actually smaller than ever, and I don't think those devs are equipped to compete in those areas with CoD or Assassin's Creed.

When their top IPs fail to sell like these games, they think there's a problem with those IPs, but the truth is that only two or three Western IPs are capable of selling like this, and it shouldn't be a goal for anyone. Budget responsibly, and accept the limitations of your IP. But don't simply shelve a popular IP because you're looking for the next CoD, WoW or P&D.

4. Due to the rigid corporate structure of Japanese companies, it seems (to my eyes) that they handled to transition to next-gen far worse than Western devs. They seem to react to market changes very slowly, and I can't think of any other reason why. They also often seem very out of touch with what their fan-base wants, or what the market in general would respond to. Again, I think that this is a function of having older, out-of-touch people making unchallenged decisions at the top of the chain.

All of that is idle speculation from someone who has never even been to Japan, so it's probably worthless. But that's what it looks like to a complete outsider who used to play Japanese games almost exclusively. There are quite obviously a bunch of difficult problems there, but there shouldn't be despair. If you keep making good games for an audience that actually exists, then you will sell copies. There's still plenty of talent in Japan.
A wonderful post, mate. At least from a western perspective a mixture of all these things happened.
 

StayDead

Member
In all fairness the Legend of Heroes/Ys series both seem interesting, but I'm tired of portable games. That's why I'm really excited for this potential Falcom PS4 game.

May I ask why? I personally play mainly handheld games but I'd hardly saay I'm "tired" of console games. If a games good, does it matter what format it's on?
 
Quintet, Cing, Love-de-Lic, Hudson Soft and Flagship.
iLmhVETS0m92y.gif


Some of these might have been absorbed into another studio, but that's just not the same. Perhaps not Japanese, but while I'm at it, I miss Bullfrog as well. At least Platinum Games rose from the ashes of Clover Studios like a glorious phoenix.
 
What the hell happened over there? From the NES to the PS2 there were so many amazing things coming from Japan. So many legendary franchises that were strong and relevant but are now in the shitter. It's like none of them understand how to make a solid game anymore or even what to do with the IP's they own. Is it something in the water? I mean why is it so hard to figure out a viable business model that honors the traditions that made these companies a success in the first place?



I feel your pain and I wholeheartedly agree with your post. I always loved and will most likely love Japanese games more than any other types of games due to their sheer quality, creativity and polish, but unfortunately it seems like Japan is becoming nonchalant about video games and losing their relevance. It's almost like they are slowing giving up by constant outsourcing, lack of advertising/marketing, trying to emulate Western games, unfamiliarity with powerful hardware, running to portables and unreasonably lengthy development time on most of their games. I do also blame the shift in the market though. I think Japan would be a little more formidable if shooters, sports games and licensed games didn't literally dominate world-wide. Gamer's preferences and tastes has also changed though which contributes to it as well.
 
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