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[Mr.Squirrel]

Yes, it's pretty sad. They're judging the game for what it represents more so than the merits of the game itself.

It's a disgusting trend, and I'm sad to see that it caught on.

What did you expect? I haven't seen a single Tomb Raider thread that didn't get trolled with people making the same corny jokes about saving laura, it being a murder sim, and any sound she makes being compared to a porno.

The game looks great to me, so I'll just play it, enjoy it, and let those who hate it continue to be angry over a game they can easily ignore.

 

[RagnarokX]

*sigh* Here we go again. There ARE mandatory story tombs. The GamesMaster review mentioned 6 big temple/tomb locations as part of the story. What does seem to be only present in the challenge tombs, though, seem to be actually challenging puzzles.

I think you are taking the word "tomb" too literal. The entire point of the tomb argument is the puzzle platforming gameplay. If that's absent the locations may LITERALLY be tombs, but lack the gameplay that people mean when they talk about tombs. What does it matter if the game has 6 tombs if they aren't very good?

 

[GoddyofAus]

Except if you actually read the reviews and not just look at the scores, the reviews prove it is as much of a train wreck from a gameplay standpoint as we feared it would be. It's about as dumb and modern as you get in this industry anymore.

It has nothing to do with not being a TR game and everything to do with it being a *bad* game.

GAF continues to make judgements about games it's never played.

 

[tiny raptor]

Great post. Agreed with everything you said. People are mistaking "good game" for a "good Tomb Raider game".

The phrase "optional tombs" perfectly describes everything that is wrong with this game.

As I've been reading this thread, I've been nodding to the points you've been making too (aside from the fact that Uncharted wets my whistle, but that's the thing, I didn't want my Tomb Raider game to be an Uncharted/Far Cry game when I already have Uncharted for an Uncharted game).

 

[Steve McQueen]

Oh and here's a PS3/360 comparison in case it hasn't been posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svlHuWlAGvM

They look almost identical but the PS3 version seems to have sharper textures and better contrast.

Thanks for posting this. PS3 seems sharper indeed. Especially foliage, grass seems sharper to my eyes.
Don't know if I should bite though...to much of an action movie to me.

 

[Majmun]

YAS, I knew it'd be good.

"Bu bu but all the changes ;_;"

 

[Paul Alexander]

I've spent the better part of this morning reading reviews that ALL agree with most of my gameplay complaints. The only difference is they still gave it a 8 whereas if I was reviewing it and came across those problems I'd be giving it a 4. In fact the reviews spent too much time talking about non-gameplay stuff like Lara as a character or the plot and weighed it too much into the overall score. I haven't seen anything yet that says I was wrong, unless you do nothing but look at the score and not what was actually said.

You've played it, then?

This is confirmation bias at its finest.

 

[OriginofHysteria]

Sure if it happened once, but there's at least 10 unique animations like this that make me roll my eyes:

It's just disappointing that the game had to resort to that.

I personally don't mind it mainly because i love the gritty direction this game took. Obviously that's a complete 180 from the old tomb raider games but that's just my opinion.

 

[Ashok]

I'm just going to be honest here... I think this game looks pretty awesome.

 

[Ravensmash]

Except if you actually read the reviews and not just look at the scores, the reviews prove it is as much of a train wreck from a gameplay standpoint as we feared it would be. It's about as dumb and modern as you get in this industry anymore.

It has nothing to do with not being a TR game and everything to do with it being a *bad* game.

Cool, maybe some of us enjoy 'dumb' and 'modern' games from time to time.

 

[Hari Seldon]

This game does look great if you are not sick of this gen's generic action games by this point. If you are not sick of them, then have fun with it! To me this looks like a bargain bin game, and only because I am a fan of the franchise. If it was another franchise I would ignore the reviews and would not care at all.

Maybe if this game came out 3-4 years ago I would be a lot more excited about it.

 

[Lime]

Given that a lot of the review sites are American, I imagine they just inherit the grade system.

Here an A is 90-100%, a B is 80-89%, and a C is 70-79%, and anything below that is seen as pretty horrible and even a C is seen as quite questionable in most places.

Since they know that's the conception everyone here has for ~10+ years of letter graded schooling, they probably try to trick to it so it's more intuitive to their readers. I mean how many times have we seen 7's and seen a response of "That is horrible how dare Edge do that!!!!". It's a reaction that comes from years upon years of institutionalized focus on what these specific number bands mean.

However, this also means that while 6 out of 100 points may be viewed as very small on an absolute scale, a lot of their audience will look at that and see the games as far apart, which still gets their original message across.

That's very interesting. I never considered what the cultural impact of the American grade system has on review scores. It definitely makes more sense.

Thank you. I'm amazed at the extent to which substantive game design is undervalued on these boards and in general, and it's unfortunate that most reviews don't differentiate polish from narrative and mechanical depth in their assessment of quality.

So true. Just like AAA game design, reviews have become checklists for a quantitative assessment - see the recent Arthur Gies vs. Bennett Foddy discussion on how a popular mainstream reviewer doesn't get what's wrong with his methodology and approach to assessing the quality of a game.

 

[Mindman]

I'm just going to be honest here... I think this game looks pretty awesome.

Me too. Thank you for your honesty.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

"Tomb Raider is a bad game"
"Why?"
"Read the reviews"
"Didn't the reviews give the game 8's and 9's and say the positives outweighed the negatives overall?"
"Yeah, it's bad"
"Have you played it even?"
"No"
"??????"
"I still may buy it though"

 

[XOMTOR]

I think it's a fine day actually because this is the final nail in the coffin for long time fans so it's the best time to move on.The fanboys and the respectful "journalists" can finally have what they always wanted/cared about in this game:

Spoiler

Lara.

Agreed, I've already come to terms with the fact that the direction of this franchise is no longer in line with what I enjoyed about Tomb Raider. The 3D adventure/platformer genre now has no representation as far as I know. Anyway, I'll shift gears and embrace The Last of Us since it at least looks to be doing something interesting, not just ticking a bunch of boxes on a AAA game development checklist.

 

[Derrick01]

You've played it, then?

This is confirmation bias at its finest.

I don't need to experience bad TPS gameplay with shoehorned RPG elements to know I don't like it, even though I've gone through it a dozen times this generation.

I guess that's one benefit of a game that doesn't try to do anything unique. You can just copy and paste your experiences with the games its copycatting.

"Tomb Raider is a bad game"
"Why?"
"Read the reviews"
"Didn't the reviews give the game 8's and 9's?"
"Yeah, it's bad"
"??????"

This bringing up nothing but the score thing is getting to the point where I'm going to have to start asking if some of you need some kind of help.

 

[CambriaRising]

I'm just going to be honest here... I think this game looks pretty awesome.

You will never get to sit at the Cool Kids table with this kind of thinking.

 

[antitrop]

Fuck it, I love this shit in games. Don't buy it, its not for you.

I agree, that GIF is awesome.

 

[Revven]

Except for the part where you haven't played it and are basing ur opinion on what someones else wrote.

Annnnnnnd so is everyone else, even the people being positive. Do the people who are happy about the scores get a free pass on needing to play the game to actually be definitively right about it being good? I guess so.

Hold everyone to the same standard, not just people who "hate" the game.

 

[Ahasverus]

I've spent the better part of this morning reading reviews that ALL agree with most of my gameplay complaints. The only difference is they still gave it a 8 whereas if I was reviewing it and came across those problems I'd be giving it a 4. In fact the reviews spent too much time talking about non-gameplay stuff like Lara as a character or the plot and weighed it too much into the overall score. I haven't seen anything yet that says I was wrong, unless you do nothing but look at the score and not what was actually said.

Oh no, they consider a game to be more than the sum of its parts, burn it in fire, and add Silent HIll 2 too

 

[tiny raptor]

"Tomb Raider is a bad game"
"Why?"
"Read the reviews"
"Didn't the reviews give the game 8's and 9's and say the positives outweighed the negatives overall?"
"Yeah, it's bad"
"??????"

Thank you for not oversimplifying the issue and really addressing all the concerns we have with what we're reading. Also thank you for not using any strawmen. What a fine post.

 

[Vire]

Fuck it, I love this shit in games. Don't buy it, its not for you.

When I was younger I used to feel this way.

But as I've gotten older, my tolerance for this kind of stuff has gone down. After witnessing countless tragedies in real life, the utter disregard for human life that these games show almost disgust me. Especially after games like Journey that show you can make a compelling experience without resulting to excessive amounts of violence.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

 

[BigWeather]

Fuck it, I love this shit in games. Don't buy it, its not for you.

But the series WAS for those that didn't like it. There are tons of games that cater to that crap, go play those. What's next, taking Ultima and making it a FTP ARPG?! Oh...

 

[Squire]

The berries Lara picks in the wild are actually the sour grapes of the haters.

 

[SammiiDoogles]

I did not see this coming...

When I played it at Eurogamer Expo I thought it was horrendous...

 

[RedAssedApe]

"Tomb Raider is a bad game"
"Why?"
"Read the reviews"
"Didn't the reviews give the game 8's and 9's and say the positives outweighed the negatives overall?"
"Yeah, it's bad"
"Have you played it even?"
"No"
"??????"
"I still may buy it though"

Pretty much how every review thread goes these days. haha

Or the last line can also be... will buy after game reaches $xx.xx pricepoint.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Thank you for not oversimplifying the issue and really addressing all the concerns we have with what we're reading. Also thank you for not using any strawmen. What a fine post.

I call it like I see it. Sure not everyone is doing that, but saying the game is bad based on positive reviews and not having played it is beyond me.

Not your type of game? Sure. Bad in general? No.

 

[Derrick01]

I call it like I see it.

So I should be questioning your ability to read then? Maybe it's the standard sentence structure throwing you off? Help me help you.

 

[Papercuts]

Reviewing higher than I expected, excited to try it out.

 

[Harlequin]

I don't need to experience bad TPS gameplay with shoehorned RPG elements to know I don't like it, even though I've gone through it a dozen times this generation.

I guess that's one benefit of a game that doesn't try to do anything unique. You can just copy and paste your experiences with the games its copycatting.



This bringing up nothing but the score thing is getting to the point where I'm going to have to start asking if some of you need some kind of help.

Bad TPS gameplay? Every review I've read said the combat was excellent.

Not to mention that the score IS relevant. Sure, you can't just ignore the actual review with its pros and cons like some people here are. But you can also CERTAINLY NOT just ignore the score like you are. If the game gets good scores that means that - overall - it was found to be a good game.

 

[GoddyofAus]

When I was younger I used to feel this way.

But as I've gotten older, my tolerance for this kind of stuff has gone down. After witnessing countless tragedies in real life, the utter disregard for human life that these games show almost disgust me. Especially after games like Journey that show you can make a compelling experience without resulting to excessive amounts of violence.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

See, as an Aussie, with our ridiculous game prices, we sortof have to put amount of content on the same shelf as quality of content.

You can claim that Journey was a short game but was amazing sure, but when you have Aussies paying exorbitant prices for every game, regardless of length, you have to sympathize with us about how much content we're getting for our dollar. We would love to have an industry where games with the length/quality of Journey was commonplace, but when we're still being ripped off, it's hard to justify. So if the only games that are going to give us returns on our dollar are violent mediocre knock offs, we have to put up with it.

Our situation, quite frankly sucks dick.

 

[Squire]

"Tomb Raider is a bad game"
"Why?"
"Read the reviews"
"Didn't the reviews give the game 8's and 9's and say the positives outweighed the negatives overall?"
"Yeah, it's bad"
"Have you played it even?"
"No"
"??????"
"I still may buy it though"

^Post so spot-on it deserves a goddamn medal.

 

[CambriaRising]

When I was younger I used to feel this way.

But as I've gotten older, my tolerance for this kind of stuff has gone down. Especially after games like Journey that show you can make a compelling experience without resulting to excessive amounts of violence.

As a huge Journey fan and fan of games that have no violence or antagonistic qualities to speak of, there is room for both types of game and not every game needs to be one or the other. It is fine that you enjoy games that don't have this type of violence, I do as well.

This game is not one of those games.

Edit: To your edited point, that is where the separation of visual media and reality comes into play. That is an entirely different discussion.

But the series WAS for those that didn't like it. There are tons of games that cater to that crap, go play those. What's next, taking Ultima and making it a FTP ARPG?! Oh...

Yeah, the Tomb Raider series is known for its non-violent and non-gratuitous ways.

 

[Derrick01]

Bad TPS gameplay? Every review I've read said the combat was excellent.

Sit behind chest high walls, pick off guys with bad AI, finish them off with unnecessarily brutal finishing kills.

Been there done that too many times this gen.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

So I should be questioning your ability to read then? Maybe it's the standard sentence structure throwing you off? Help me help you.

You said the game was bad. Overall bad. Not "it's not my type of Tomb Raider" or "the downsides the reviews mentioned were enough to put me off, even with the positives," you said it is just a bad game.

I just can't fathom saying this about a game that has reviewed very well and I have yet to play myself. I can understand the "not my type of TR" or opinions on how certain mechanics are poorly implemented, but saying it's outright bad is just not something one can say without even touching it.

Also for how much you hate this game I laugh at the fact that you're still going to play it. You should have been off this bandwagon 6 months ago and played something you like.

 

[pakkit]

This seems like a great rental, but I'm not sure if it'll hold enough water to justify a day 1 purchase. The lack of tomb raiding is disconcerting, although the setting does look really varied and rich in history.

I don't need to experience bad TPS gameplay with shoehorned RPG elements to know I don't like it, even though I've gone through it a dozen times this generation.

I guess that's one benefit of a game that doesn't try to do anything unique. You can just copy and paste your experiences with the games its copycatting.

If you want to take this cynicism to its logical conclusion, you've been pressing the same buttons year in and year out to accomplish fabricated achievements that in the end mean nothing. Tomb Raider may not have a flashy new feature that you can brandish as a "game changer," but that's true of the overwhelming majority of videogames, including several that you have enjoyed!

 

[LightofRohan]

Wow, this actually seems pretty good. Goddammit, I don't have extra money for this!

The R3v review was weird... she seemed like she loved it and had only a bit of negatives to say, but gave it 3/5. Interesting. So this is the best Tomb Raider this gen though right? Which isnt very hard

I don't need to experience bad TPS gameplay with shoehorned RPG elements to know I don't like it, even though I've gone through it a dozen times this generation.

I guess that's one benefit of a game that doesn't try to do anything unique. You can just copy and paste your experiences with the games its copycatting.



This bringing up nothing but the score thing is getting to the point where I'm going to have to start asking if some of you need some kind of help.

Ehh... you are pretty negative in every thread I've seen you in.

 

[plagiarize]

I don't need to experience bad TPS gameplay with shoehorned RPG elements to know I don't like it, even though I've gone through it a dozen times this generation.

I guess that's one benefit of a game that doesn't try to do anything unique. You can just copy and paste your experiences with the games its copycatting.



This bringing up nothing but the score thing is getting to the point where I'm going to have to start asking if some of you need some kind of help.

the most negative review I saw, (the 3/5) said the game was compelling and fun. most of the complaints I'm reading aren't with the core platforming/combat gameplay.

the scripted sequences, the qte events, those have been receiving complaints, but I haven't seen people calling the third person shooter gameplay bad. quite the opposite. the consensus on that element seems to be that the third person shooting is *good*.

but then maybe I'm as guilty of confirmation bias as you are clearly being.

 

[GoddyofAus]

Derrick needs to create a thread detailing exactly what it is he looks for in a game.

 

[Paul Alexander]

I don't need to experience bad TPS gameplay with shoehorned RPG elements to know I don't like it, even though I've gone through it a dozen times this generation.

I guess that's one benefit of a game that doesn't try to do anything unique. You can just copy and paste your experiences with the games its copycatting.

Point me to reviews that label the gameplay as bad or the RPG elements as shoehorned on.

You're conjuring an opinion from thin air, having not played the game, based on second-hand impressions and preconceived biases, and it shows.

 

[dreamfall]

What is going on here?

"This series isn't for you anymore."
"Eat crow, suck it haters, etc."

This isn't contributing to the discussion. I'm trying to figure out if the elements that I love in an adventure franchise can coexist with a greater focus on combat. It's nice to see the great reception, but it's also good to analyze these reviews. And Derrick is justified in identifying some of the modern game mechanics that could undeniably drag the game down.

The fact that tombs are only a single room, that exploration is a bit more open and that there are excessive QTE's are off putting. That said, most seemed to attribute praise to the combat system, even if the narrative is slightly one dimensional. I've pre-ordered the game, and am just trying to find out if some of the concerns are justified. And they are.

I want to play this, I want to explore, I'll probably enjoy bits and pieces of the combat. But it does feel strange as a Tomb Raider game, which isn't a bad thing. Just different.

 

[Ravensmash]

Sit behind chest high walls, pick off guys with bad AI, finish them off with unnecessarily brutal finishing kills.

Been there done that too many times this gen.

Then clearly this game isn't for you, yet supposedly you're still going to buy it knowing that you hate the gameplay?

 

[hlhbk]

I come in here, see the review scores are very good only to see GAF bashing the game. How predicable. This is not the same Tomb Raider game we grew up on people, get used to the idea and move on. As a huge fan of the origional Tomb Raider (I had the Saturn version), and the reboot in Legend, Anniversary, and Underworld, and a huge fan of the Uncharted games I can't wait for this game to be released! Now that I have read the reviews this is a no doubt day 1 purchase via Steam.

I swear sometimes GAF hates just to hate...

 

[antitrop]

Wow, this actually seems pretty good. Goddammit, I don't have extra money for this!

The R3v review was weird... she seemed like she loved it and had only a bit of negatives to say, but gave it 3/5. Interesting. So this is the best Tomb Raider this gen though right? Which isnt very hard

It might be the best Tomb Raider game ever.

 

[Gustav]

Wow - didn't know the game was this gore-y. Looks like I'm not going to buy.

 

[Derrick01]

You said the game was bad. Overall bad. Not "it's not my type of Tomb Raider" or "the downsides the reviews mentioned were enough to put me off, even with the positives," you said it is just a bad game.

I just can't fathom saying this about a game that has reviewed very well and I have yet to play myself. I can understand the "not my type of TR" or opinions on how certain mechanics are poorly implemented, but saying it's outright bad is just not something one can say without even touching it.

Also for how much you hate this game I laugh at the fact that you're still going to play it. You should have been off this bandwagon 6 months ago and played something you like.

I wouldn't have played anything from this year until June if I did that. I need something to pass the time here and there.

Then clearly this game isn't for you, yet supposedly you're still going to buy it knowing that you hate the gameplay?

I haven't made that decision yet. It hinges entirely on my ability to put up with a terrible console version for 10 hours when I have a nice PC sitting in front of me.

 

[Andrew.]

Come on guys, it probably isn't so bad...

 

[RoKKeR]

As I've been reading this thread, I've been nodding to the points you've been making too (aside from the fact that Uncharted wets my whistle, but that's the thing, I didn't want my Tomb Raider game to be an Uncharted/Far Cry game when I already have Uncharted for an Uncharted game).

We'll get along just fine. This is the main point that should be made about this game. If you're fine with it, great. Enjoy. If not, TR will be a disappointment to you.

Think I'll move along now.

 

[Vire]

As a huge Journey fan and fan of games that have no violence or antagonistic qualities to speak of, there is room for both types of game and not every game needs to be one or the other. It is fine that you enjoy games that don't have this type of violence, I do as well.

This game is not one of those games.

That's a pretty fair assessment. I don't think that games can't have violence, I just think that they should serve purpose. For instance, I'm really excited for The Last of Us, even though it's an exceedingly brutal game. The element of survival in a gritty world doesn't bother me in the slightest, and if approached correctly can be done really well. It's the need to show close ups of guys getting chainsawed in half in slow-motion kind of thing. Why?

But if that floats your boat, all the more power to you, I'm just saying it doesn't appeal to me and I wish they didn't go that route.

 

[chrono01]

I was going to avoid/pass on this, but after all of the postive reviews, I'm tempted to pick it up at launch now.

While it doesn't look like classic Tomb Raider, it still looks incredibly solid.