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[TrebleShot]

Why does SM MM look better on an even weaker gpu?

 

[alucard0712_rus]

"It isn't a comparison unless it meets my exacting standards"

Ok

What are you talking about? It's BASICS of comparison. If 3080 runs 45+ fps at ULTRA, and XSX runs 30FPS on HIGH settings - they are same performance? Also what the point NOT to use DLSS in compatible title?

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

What are you talking about? It's BASICS of comparison. If 3080 runs 45+ fps at ULTRA, and XSX runs 30FPS they are same performance? Also what the point NOT to use DLSS in compatible title?

The XsX version is locked to 30fps, genius, so obviously that's not going to be a particularly revealing comparison. Maybe it can do more, maybe not, we'll never know.

Feel free to report the thread as not being an accurate/suitable comparison, though.

 

[alucard0712_rus]

The XsX version is locked to 30fps, genius, so obviously that's not going to be a particularly revealing comparison. Maybe it can do more, maybe not, we'll never know.

Feel free to report the thread as not being an accurate/suitable comparison, though.

I mean, sure it's graphical comparison. But XSX is nowhere near 3080, I don't see a point. XSX is 3070 like performance at best (with slower raytracing and without DLSS).

 

[rnlval]

XSX is probably ~25% behind 6800. (XSX runs 4K with ultra effects at 60fps)
Which puts it against 2080Ti, in a traditional engine, of course

XSX GPU doesn't match RTX 2080 Ti's rasterization.

128 MB Infinity Cache + delta color compression (DCC) is more than four times XBO's 32 MB eDRAM without DCC. XBO's 32 MB eDRAM can support 1600x900p framebuffers. RDNA 2 based game console's GPU SRAM storage not optimized for 4K frame buffers when compared to BiG NAVI's 128 MB Infinity Cache + delta color compression (DCC) design.

 

[MrLove]

Xbox looks terrible. There is very low or not at all RT on Xbox

NO RT, just Cube Maps. And overall Low-Mid settings with blurry filter. Not Good...

PS4 Pro

 

[GaviotaGrande]

Maybe it's just me - but honestly the more of this ray traced shit I see the less I can bring myself to care about it.

I was running a 1080 for a long time, but when one of my friends got a 3080 he lent me his old card (original launch model RTX2080) - I've been replaying some of the stuff I originally played on the 1080 and I'm deeply unimpressed. The biggest difference is on "RTX enhanced" games like Control - but that seems to be mostly because the graphics are gimped to fuck with RTX turned off compared to what some other titles have managed without using RT.

I'm getting a very strong "3D TV" vibe off this - it's technology that the vendors want to sell to you, but which actually provides minimal advantages to the user while adding cost and complexity.

You're wrong. In a few years time every game will be fully raytraced.

 

[Venom Snake]

It doesn't look bad at all.

 

[llien]

Barely 2080 TI level.

DF: "XSeX is around 2060-2070"
GAF: "llien, what is your problem with DF"

 

[longdi]

DF: "XSeX is around 2060-2070"
GAF: "llien, what is your problem with DF"

I dont remember DF saying that about XSX? Or you confused with the 'PS5 is around 2060' by the Alex guy?

IIRC they were shocked a console could rear Gears 5 at ultra 4K/60.

 

[onesvenus]

NO RT, just Cube Maps.

Your guess is that they are computing dynamic cubemaps each frame? Because those reflections show dynamic objects as well and they don't exhibit a lower frame rate.
So XSX is not powerful enough to use RT but somehow it's powerful enough to render the scene 7 times (1 from the camera position + 6 to create the cubemaps) each frame?

It's not SSR either because as you can see, the behaviour of the reflections in PS4 Pro is completely different than the one in XSX

I don't understand the length people go to bash their preferred console competitor

 

[acm2000]

Nah, it's 2080 level. You are not getting this performance out of a 2070.

its not native 4k and maxes at 30fps, shall see what DF say but thats 2070/2070 super level

edit: 2070 super @ 4k, RT high+dlss set to performance is literally 30fps, this is fine and expected, especially for a ubisoft game

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Baked SSR?

So you get all the disadvantages of Cubemaps/CaptureProbes/Planar Reflections but also all the disadvantages of Screen Space Reflections.....and literally none of the benefits?

Who the fuck would do that?


I take it you meant some other technique?
How would you even do that, you would need to have someone capture every single view the camera could possibly have including every single person/car/thing at which point just using an actual cubemap or captureprobe makes more sense.

That if the patch is coming in 10th of November of next gen, it means it's running XOX version on BC, which will have no RT. Not really sure though but could be cubemaps/captureProbes/Planar Reflections/SSR. Not very educated in the method personally. Someone more technical would provide a more detailed information. I was asking because I heard that the next gen patch comes in 10-12th of November.

 

[MrLove]

Your guess is that they are computing dynamic cubemaps each frame? Because those reflections show dynamic objects as well and they don't exhibit a lower frame rate.
So XSX is not powerful enough to use RT but somehow it's powerful enough to render the scene 7 times (1 from the camera position + 6 to create the cubemaps) each frame?

It's not SSR either because as you can see, the behaviour of the reflections in PS4 Pro is completely different than the one in XSX

I don't understand the length people go to bash their preferred console competitor

What are you talking about? Cube Maps or or similar are cheap und muc cheaper as RT. Xbox looks here compared bad.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

What's "baked SSR"? There's no way to precompute SSR unless you are talking about using a cube map to fake reflections and calling that SSR which is wrong.

And as always with you, please stop posting FUD. The watchdog legions trailer, confirmed to be running on XSX, is showing off-screen reflected objects on cars and buildings for example. Can you explain how can that be done using SSR?

This constant need to defend everybody's console of choice while bashing the other one doing empty claims it's killing this forum

Don't get mad, I was sincerely curious. I've read somewhere that the next gen patch comes on a later date and current gameplay is XOX version until 10-12th of November. If you may explain the difference of SSR/Cubemaps/etc I'll be your student and very grateful.

 

[martino]

XSX is probably ~25% behind 6800. (XSX runs 4K with ultra effects at 60fps)
Which puts it against 2080Ti, in a traditional engine, of course

important nuance here.
imo it's they are two approach for next gen between ms/ps and nvidia/amd
it's unclear to me if they on equal foot to perform with next design in mind or if one will have a real advantage
it's why i wait for next gen title to release
if godfall use a lot dx12u feature this title will be interesting to watch for exemple.

 

[LisaMariaMartin]

People have been brainwashed by Microsoft and Sony PR. If you want the absolute best performance, get a PC. But be prepared to drop over 1000$ to get equivalent performance of their consoles.

 

[kuncol02]

Xbox looks terrible. There is very low or not at all RT on Xbox

NO RT, just Cube Maps. And overall Low-Mid settings with blurry filter. Not Good...

PS4 Pro

Game on 12TFlop console looks worse that on 30Tflop graphic card. In next episode "water is wet".

 

[Mr Moose]

Barely 2080 TI level.
*Looks up the price of a 2080 Ti*
Oh.

 

[geordiemp]

important nuance here.
imo it's they are two approach for next gen between ms/ps and nvidia/amd
it's unclear to me if they on equal foot to perform with next design in mind or if one will have a real advantage
it's why i wait for next gen title to release
if godfall use a lot dx12u feature this title will be interesting to watch for exemple.

I think you mean VRS which I think is a good frature on racing games and the like, looks like from the AMD prseentation of Dirt it uses allot of VRS which is understandable, maybe thats how they get 120 FPS ?

I am not convinced on VRS for games like godfall where you can often see the artifacts, but lets see.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

PS4 Pro will never have RT, but what method is used here to have realistic reflection? Did developers bake a dynamic reflection of the vehicle that shows in such situations? Like a ghost in low res and make it blurry? If this helps performance, then it's welcome and keep RT for less expensive computations like audio, GI, and shadows? As raytraced reflections seem to be very taxing.

 

[Trimesh]

You're wrong. In a few years time every game will be fully raytraced.

We will have to wait and see, I guess. Personally, I see it as being so far down the slope of diminishing returns that it's probably best to completely ignore it and spend the time and effort on something that actually improves the game. I'm just really glad I didn't pay $1200 for this video card, because I would be feeling utterly fucking ripped off if I had.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

its not native 4k and maxes at 30fps, shall see what DF say but thats 2070/2070 super level

edit: 2070 super @ 4k, RT high+dlss set to performance is literally 30fps, this is fine and expected, especially for a ubisoft game

It's native 4k during the day though. In fact, all we know outside that is it's 1520p during night+rain.

It also doesn't "max" at 30fps, it's locked to it.

People have been brainwashed by Microsoft and Sony PR. If you want the absolute best performance, get a PC. But be prepared to drop over 1000$ to get equivalent performance of their consoles.

Truth, ultimately these consoles are just PCs that deliver superior bang for the buck, PC gaming itself will always have the best results though.

That said, when I got my 2070 Super I never anticipated it being bested by a next gen console, but XsX is punching above it here.

 

[Trimesh]

PS4 Pro will never have RT, but what method is used here to have realistic reflection? Did developers baked a dynamic reflection of the vehicle that shows in such situations? Like a ghost in low res and make it blurry? If this helps performance, then it's welcome and keep RT for less expensive computations like audio, GI, and shadows? As raytraced reflections seem to be very taxing.

I guess that's a combination of environment mapping and screen-space reflections - that works really well in racing games because the camera position is heavily constrained by the track. Trying to use environment mapping in open world type games is a lot harder because you can't really predict where the camera is going to be and a lot of the time the results will look strange.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I guess that's a combination of environment mapping and screen-space reflections - that works really well in racing games because the camera position is heavily constrained by the track. Trying to use environment mapping in open world type games is a lot harder because you can't really predict where the camera is going to be and a lot of the time the results will look strange.

Can't developers bake those reflections using RT offline? Like giving proximity of the angle? Like after some level the reflection disappears to save power?

 

[GaviotaGrande]

We will have to wait and see, I guess. Personally, I see it as being so far down the slope of diminishing returns that it's probably best to completely ignore it and spend the time and effort on something that actually improves the game. I'm just really glad I didn't pay $1200 for this video card, because I would be feeling utterly fucking ripped off if I had.

Yeah, I guess it all depends on how deep are your pockets and how serious you are about the hobby.

 

[MrLove]

John Linneman knew it since the beginning

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Yeah, I guess it all depends on how deep are your pockets and how serious you are about the hobby.

It's the same with people calling 4K a gimmick, and now calling 8K a gimmick. RT is huge, and among all the craze in 2018, I was extremely happy about it being introduced, although I don't PC-game, at least currently.

No one should panic, you can always play at 1080p with no RT. I would most likely stick to PS5, but I appreciate the advancement and might upgrade my card as well if I feel so.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

John Linneman knew it since the beginning

He forgot about Watch Dogs



But then,you knew that, right?

 

[Black_Stride]

That if the patch is coming in 10th of November of next gen, it means it's running XOX version on BC, which will have no RT. Not really sure though but could be cubemaps/captureProbes/Planar Reflections/SSR. Not very educated in the method personally. Someone more technical would provide a more detailed information. I was asking because I heard that the next gen patch comes in 10-12th of November.

Don't get mad, I was sincerely curious. I've read somewhere that the next gen patch comes on a later date and current gameplay is XOX version until 10-12th of November. If you may explain the difference of SSR/Cubemaps/etc I'll be your student and very grateful.

The full nextgen patch might be coming later(havent seen a source on this), but what has been presented certainly looks like RT reflections, though it could be a high quality Cubemaps or Captureprobes.

When you see the car driving under the "Threat Level High" scrolling sign its reflecting it pretty much as you would expect even when the camera can no longer see the actual sign.

SSR basically looks at the current scene takes a picture of it, then draws it upside down(on the surface)................whatever isnt on camera isnt drawn because the camera cant see it to take the picture.......the cutoff is usually dramatic and easy to spot.

Planar draws the whole scene again this is expensive because everything needs to be redrawn from scratch including things NOT visible on screen (Rarely if ever used for dynamic objects) but perfect for buildings and other static geometry.

CaptureProbes could do the reflections we have seen so far because the capture probe errrrr........captures a section around the camera and reprojects it into reflections....but doing this at 1:1 frames would be pretty taxing because you are capturing everything around the reflection then drawing it in the same time you have to actually draw the things that camera would see.
Most capture probes happen at intervals, maybe once ever few seconds....you can spot these anytime you look at games with dynamic objects but the reflection seems to be lagging behind.

The most logical answer to what this is when looking at the dynamic objects being reflected is a mix of SSR, RT and CaptureProbes.

 

[Trimesh]

Can't developers bake those reflections using RT offline? Like giving proximity of the angle? Like after some level the reflection disappears to save power?

You can generate pre-baked reflections using any method you like - the problem is that the more degrees of freedom the camera and the actors have the more sets of reflection data you need and the size quickly becomes unmanageable.

In a racing game, you can assume that most of the time the camera is going to be in a fairly narrow path down the racing line of the track, and you can bake the reflections based on that. Sure, sometimes the car will move off the line, but if you have the map modelled as being a relatively long distance away the errors are not really noticable.
If you're reflecting stuff that's on-screen then you can do that with shaders - which don't require that much computational overhead.

The real advantage of ray tracing is that it's completely general - the problem is that it's also computationally expensive.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

The full nextgen patch might be coming later(havent seen a source on this), but what has been presented certainly looks like RT reflections, though it could be a high quality Cubemaps or Captureprobes.

When you see the car driving under the "Threat Level High" scrolling sign its reflecting it pretty much as you would expect even when the camera can no longer see the actual sign.

SSR basically looks at the current scene takes a picture of it, then draws it upside down(on the surface)................whatever isnt on camera isnt drawn because the camera cant see it to take the picture.......the cutoff is usually dramatic and easy to spot.

Planar draws the whole scene again this is expensive because everything needs to be redrawn from scratch including things NOT visible on screen (Rarely if ever used for dynamic objects) but perfect for buildings and other static geometry.

CaptureProbes could do the reflections we have seen so far because the capture probe errrrr........captures a section around the camera and reprojects it into reflections....but doing this at 1:1 frames would be pretty taxing because you are capturing everything around the reflection then drawing it in the same time you have to actually draw the things that camera would see.
Most capture probes happen at intervals, maybe once ever few seconds....you can spot these anytime you look at games with dynamic objects but the reflection seems to be lagging behind.

The most logical answer to what this is when looking at the dynamic objects being reflected is a mix of SSR, RT and CaptureProbes.

You can generate pre-baked reflections using any method you like - the problem is that the more degrees of freedom the camera and the actors have the more sets of reflection data you need and the size quickly becomes unmanageable.

In a racing game, you can assume that most of the time the camera is going to be in a fairly narrow path down the racing line of the track, and you can bake the reflections based on that. Sure, sometimes the car will move off the line, but if you have the map modelled as being a relatively long distance away the errors are not really noticable.
If you're reflecting stuff that's on-screen then you can do that with shaders - which don't require that much computational overhead.

The real advantage of ray tracing is that it's completely general - the problem is that it's also computationally expensive.

Thank you both for the input. So SSR is pretty tricky because it's on screen reflection (knew that though before, but not very educated on the other methods). Planar Draws/CaptureProbes sounds interesting, but I think it's cheaper than RT reflections anyway, right? You can use very low res CaptureProbes and slap some blur to it to give an overall nice looking image, even if it's not 100% accurate as RT or SSR?

A mixture of all should do magic indeed, I need to search further about those keywords. Thanks a lot again!

 

[eNT1TY]

Nothing in that video indicates how performant it is or that it is even near 2080ti levels, seems like RT vs hybrid SSR with some RT embelishments. The 2080ti level performance is wishful thinking, TC makes a facetious mention of it and everyone enthusiastically ran with it.

 

[onesvenus]

I've read somewhere that the next gen patch comes on a later date and current gameplay is XOX version until 10-12th of November.

But that's a Ubi video. I'm sure they would have access to it, wouldn't they?

Another thing is those other videos saying it's XSX footage. It is, but running the Xbox One version in backwards compatibility mode because as you say, the next gen patch is still not there.

I was going to write that I wouldn't have time to write to you explaining all the different techniques until later but Black_Stride already did that. Thanks!

What are you talking about? Cube Maps or or similar are cheap und muc cheaper as RT

That's why they aren't computed on each frame, right? Look at the great post by Black_Stride . It's mostly a mix of techniques, as expected. Cube mapping would not result in what we are seeing

 

[Bo_Hazem]

But that's a Ubi video. I'm sure they would have access to it, wouldn't they?

Another thing is those other videos saying it's XSX footage. It is, but running the Xbox One version in backwards compatibility mode because as you say, the next gen patch is still not there.

I was going to write that I wouldn't have time to write to you explaining all the different techniques until later but Black_Stride Black_Stride already did that. Thanks!

Well, I'm not a developer nor that tech savvy. So feel free to educate me if you have the time and feel so, even if I don't agree with you in some points, as I might be a naughty student sometimes.

 

[TBiddy]

He forgot about Watch Dogs



But then,you knew that, right?

Of course he did. Check the post history.

 

[longdi]

Nothing in that video indicates how performant it is or that it is even near 2080ti levels, seems like RT vs hybrid SSR with some RT embelishments. The 2080ti level performance is wishful thinking, TC makes a facetious mention of it and everyone enthusiastically ran with it.

With little or no RT, and no DLSS, XSX should be around 2080Ti levels.
We've seen the Gears5 benchmarks, now together with Amd rDNA2 cards, specifically 6800, which is the closer to XSX custom GPU.
The rough CU maths are reasonable vis-avis the fps results.

 

[ZimZum]

For €500 box thats great

 

[Phrixotrichus]

Maybe it's just me - but honestly the more of this ray traced shit I see the less I can bring myself to care about it.

I was running a 1080 for a long time, but when one of my friends got a 3080 he lent me his old card (original launch model RTX2080) - I've been replaying some of the stuff I originally played on the 1080 and I'm deeply unimpressed. The biggest difference is on "RTX enhanced" games like Control - but that seems to be mostly because the graphics are gimped to fuck with RTX turned off compared to what some other titles have managed without using RT.

I'm getting a very strong "3D TV" vibe off this - it's technology that the vendors want to sell to you, but which actually provides minimal advantages to the user while adding cost and complexity.

RT has been used for decades, it is the only way to get (dynamic) light/shadow/reflections etc right.
We´ve just now begun having it in real time and people like you who don`t see the difference do so because we simply don`t have the power to use it on a level where it really makes the "punch in your face" difference, yet. If all games were using full RT-global illumination and you then turned it off, you`d weep.

 

[Armorian]

Nothing in that video indicates how performant it is or that it is even near 2080ti levels, seems like RT vs hybrid SSR with some RT embelishments. The 2080ti level performance is wishful thinking, TC makes a facetious mention of it and everyone enthusiastically ran with it.

Exactly, as far as we know XSX is ~2080 perfromance.

With little or no RT, and no DLSS, XSX should be around 2080Ti levels.
We've seen the Gears5 benchmarks, now together with Amd rDNA2 cards, specifically 6800, which is the closer to XSX custom GPU.
The rough CU maths are reasonable vis-avis the fps results.

During the time Coalition was making Gears 5 benchmark and mentioning XSX performance Xbox was still the same architecture as it is today. It's not exactly RDNA2 as it's missing Infinity Cache.

 

[PaintTinJr]

Yep, XsX performs at 2080 level.



Did you even watch the video? The XsX comes out of this comparison very favourably.

What an embarrassing post.

Does it? I can't think of any quality game on a PC graphics card in the last gen that resorted to such a reduction in frustum setup.

At its baseline the XsX doesn't render the game properly in the way a PC graphics card would - even if you turned off all the resource intensive lighting features - so the comparison with a 2080 is not representative at all of what is on display. The fudging of the frustum setup almost certainly mitigates lighting errors that would occur if using less RT rays when rendering the scene correctly.

Some of the texturing issues - presumably because on XsX GPU it is RT accelerator or 4 TMUs per Workgroup (IIRC from the hotchips diagram) but not at the same time - would never be acceptable PC image quality settings for comparison - where high quality texturing + AF would be the absolute minimum IQ on display.

 

[Neko Mimi Mode]

Does it? I can't think of any quality game on a PC graphics card in the last gen that resorted to such a reduction in frustum setup.

At its baseline the XsX doesn't render the game properly in the way a PC graphics card would - even if you turned off all the resource intensive lighting features - so the comparison with a 2080 is not representative at all of what is on display. The fudging of the frustum setup almost certainly mitigates lighting errors that would occur if using less RT rays when rendering the scene correctly.

Some of the texturing issues - presumably because on XsX GPU it is RT accelerator or 4 TMUs per Workgroup (IIRC from the hotchips diagram) but not at the same time - would never be acceptable PC image quality settings for comparison - where high quality texturing + AF would be the absolute minimum IQ on display.

I mean, this is a load of technobabble when 99% of people watching this video will think "it looks good on Series X and not far off the 3080".

I see, based on your post history, you are a Sony fan. How do you think the PS5 will compare here?

 

[PaintTinJr]

I mean, this is a load of technobabble when 99% of people watching this video will think "it looks good on Series X and not far off the 3080".

I see, based on your post history, you are a Sony fan. How do you think the PS5 will compare here?

Sorry this is nothing to do with being a fan of one side or the other - because the PS5 version might just as likely look as poor because Ubisoft clearly don't care about the way they send a 12TF console game out the door.

If you know how to program graphics you will know it isn't technobabble, and is fair comment as the comparison is doing significantly less work from the XsX frustum setup and texturing issues. A fair comparison would probably still put a RTX 2060 ahead.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

I get this way of thinking but this is the console we are stuck with for at least 3 years and is already pretty cut back on a brand new game.PC hardware and RT is only going to get better and faster and quickly.

It will not get "faster", but dev will learn where and how to use it efficiently so we will only see better/more realistic uses of it (sparingly, but in the right place).

 

[DForce]

Now XsX is being compared to a 2080 Ti?

This brings back memories from 2017 when people were comparing XB1X to a GTX 1080.

 

[tkscz]

Lower resolution, medium / high RT preset instead of ultra.

Barely 2080 TI level.

Yeah, just like everyone expected

 

[onesvenus]

I can't think of any quality game on a PC graphics card in the last gen that resorted to such a reduction in frustum setup.

Can you explain what you are saying here? What do you mean with "a reduction in frustum setup"?

 

[Thirty7ven]

People complaining are lame AF. The RT looks dope on the XSX.

 

[Rickyiez]

Relax you guys. Stop judging a console capability based on a game that is cross gen and developed by Ubisoft. It's Ubisoft guys, even the PC version runs like poo and it doesn't look anywhere as good as the bullshots suggest.

 

[geordiemp]

Can you explain what you are saying here? What do you mean with "a reduction in frustum setup"?

Viewing angle, the PC is rendering more of a wider angle scene than on XSX (and likely ps5) if you compare similar scenes and field of view.