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We Actually Do Need Pro Consoles Again

Celcius

Celcius

°Temp. member
Less than 3 years into this generation of consoles and we’re finally starting to get some more demanding games that aren’t cross gen.

Final Fantasy 16 just came out and it can run as low as 720p or 1080p depending on whether you play in performance or graphics mode. It doesn’t have ray tracing, it doesn’t run at a locked 60 fps in performance mode, and Square Enix is a very competent/experienced game dev who puts plenty of polish on their games.

CyberPunk Phantom Liberty can get down to 900p-1080p based on the new digital foundry video as well.

Before this week I was in the camp that thought PS5 felt more like a PS4 Pro Pro and that it was barely getting to stretch its legs, but if we’re back to 1080p and below in 2023 (not even including ray tracing) then I think it’s clear that we do need a mid gen refresh again this generation.

What do you guys think? Has anyone else’s mind been changed this week?
 
MatrixReloaded101

MatrixReloaded101

Member
No, the consoles isn't the issue.

The issue is publishers are rushing games out before they are ready. For example, Jedi Survivor did not need to be released this year in the state it was in.

Once publishers saw what cyberpunk did, instead of learning from that they doubled down and continued the "release at full price and patch later" strategy. That's what is killing modern gaming IMO.
 
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ManaByte

ManaByte

Gold Member
Mike Myers No GIF
 
Nydius

Nydius

Member
You know what's going to happen. Developers are going to shove in even more graphical bells and whistles, more pointless RT and crazy particle and lighting effects, all with piss-poor optimization and you'll still get a game that runs at 30fps. Just a prettier, shinier 30fps.
 
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Reallink

Reallink

Member
Celcius said:
Less than 3 years into this generation of consoles and we’re finally starting to get some more demanding games that aren’t cross gen.

Final Fantasy 16 just came out and it can run as low as 720p or 1080p depending on whether you play in performance or graphics mode. It doesn’t have ray tracing, it doesn’t run at a locked 60 fps in performance mode, and Square Enix is a very competent/experienced game dev who puts plenty of polish on their games.

CyberPunk Phantom Liberty can get down to 900p-1080p based on the new digital foundry video as well.

Before this week I was in the camp that thought PS5 felt more like a PS4 Pro Pro and that it was barely getting to stretch its legs, but if we’re back to 1080p and below in 2023 (not even including ray tracing) then I think it’s clear that we do need a mid gen refresh again this generation.

What do you guys think? Has anyone else’s mind been changed this week?
Click to expand...

How did last-gen ports struggling to run at 1080/60 - 1440p/60 somehow suggest to you that the consoles were "not getting to stretch their legs"? How could you have possibly thought that ground up next gen assets on much more advanced engines would somehow run better than last-gen ports? The consoles were weak and outdated before they even released.
 
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Nydius

Nydius

Member
Celcius said:
To the people just saying no - why?
Is 1080p at 30fps or 720p at mostly 60fps just fine?
Click to expand...

It's not that I'm opposed to them coming out, I just wouldn't buy one because I don't think they'd be the cure-all people think they will be.

As we've seen this last year or so on the PC side, developers are like The Grand Tour's Jeremy Clarkson: They believe brute force power can overcome any hurdle. Give them more powerful consoles and you might see less resolution scaling for a while, but only a very short while. They'll start cranking up all the dials so they can show off how great their game looks and then we're right back to the same problem of poorly optimized games crutching on variable resolution scaling and variable refresh rate.
 
MatrixReloaded101

MatrixReloaded101

Member
Celcius said:
To the people just saying no - why?
Is 1080p at 30fps or 720p at mostly 60fps just fine?
Click to expand...

People that truly care about that own a PC

Most people on console outside of this site don't give a crap about 60 FPS or having different graphic options.

Also I think upgrading to a PC makes more sense than spending another $500+ on a pro console. There just isn't enough games releasing on these new consoles for it to even make sense to get a pro.
 
Celcius

Celcius

°Temp. member
93xfan said:
In ONE game.

Trash post much?
Click to expand...
It’s not even about just resolution and frame rate. Have you seen enemies in the distance in SF6 world tour mode running at reduced animation speeds? The same happens in ff16 and other games as well.

Also, you could say a bit more to contribute to the discussion than just dropping in and dropping a one liner calling my post “trash”.
 
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F

Feel Like I'm On 42

Member
Celcius said:
Less than 3 years into this generation of consoles and we’re finally starting to get some more demanding games that aren’t cross gen.

Final Fantasy 16 just came out and it can run as low as 720p or 1080p depending on whether you play in performance or graphics mode. It doesn’t have ray tracing, it doesn’t run at a locked 60 fps in performance mode, and Square Enix is a very competent/experienced game dev who puts plenty of polish on their games.

CyberPunk Phantom Liberty can get down to 900p-1080p based on the new digital foundry video as well.

Before this week I was in the camp that thought PS5 felt more like a PS4 Pro Pro and that it was barely getting to stretch its legs, but if we’re back to 1080p and below in 2023 (not even including ray tracing) then I think it’s clear that we do need a mid gen refresh again this generation.

What do you guys think? Has anyone else’s mind been changed this week?
Click to expand...

Absolutely agree. FF16 and Starfield are making it clear buy honestly it was already obvious these consoles were going to struggle bases off the hundreds of cross gen games we've gotten, not being able to go beyond the typical 4k/30 high/ultra and 1440p/60 medium settings

I'm not sure why so many people seem to hate the idea of mid gen refreshes here on Gaf but be prepared to be met with a lot of passive aggressiveness and insults for suggesting this.
 
F

Feel Like I'm On 42

Member
Celcius said:
It’s not even about just resolution and frame rate. Have you seen enemies in the distance in SF6 world mode running at reduced animation speeds? The same happens in ff16 and other games as well.

Also, you could say a bit more to contribute to the discussion than just dropping in and dropping a one liner calling my post “trash”.
Click to expand...

The first post I read after making my comment is of course someone childishly insulting you.

Best policy is to hit that ignore button. There are so many of these little clowns lately on Gaf
 
odhiex

odhiex

Member
If the next gen consoles aimed at 2028 releases, then yes, there will be pro models of PS5 and XBOX.

I mean, 8 years is a long ass time for a generation.
 
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93xfan

93xfan

Banned
Celcius said:
It’s not even about just resolution and frame rate. Have you seen enemies in the distance in SF6 world mode running at reduced animation speeds? The same happens in ff16 and other games as well.

Also, you could say a bit more to contribute to the discussion than just dropping in and dropping a one liner calling my post “trash”.
Click to expand...
ok sure.

But using one game as an example and asking is this okay is not a good argument.

I think the problem is devs scrambling to get games out asap.
 
Walter Matthau

Walter Matthau

Member
Clearly these consoles are highly capable... look at games like Ratchet or the PS5 Unreal demo.

The issue is that games have gotten too big to manage properly and publishers are rushing them out the door without optimization because they take years to develop now.

Giving them more power to work with will only raise expectations further and few developers appear prepared for it.
 
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Whitecrow

Whitecrow

Banned
It does have ray-traicing... Probably.
No ps5 game hit 4k 60 fps, and ff16 proves that at the moment you start to make games look great, fps starts to tank.

Do we NEED pro consoles? No, the real question is, do we want technology keep pushing forward?

We want everything, but we cant have everything, but for a next gen console to have great looking games at good frame rate, we need current gen consoles to have great looking games at bad frame rate.

Im not sure what I want to say. Im sure theres a message there. Im a bit drunk.

Hey GAF!
 
N

NahaNago

Member
It is more of a dev issue than a console issue. Devs are gonna push these consoles to have all of these new graphical features and bells and whistles so the fps and resolution are going to take a hit.
Whitecrow said:
It does have ray-traicing... Probably.
No ps5 game hit 4k 60 fps, and ff16 proves that at the moment you start to make games look great, fps starts to tank.

Do we NEED pro consoles? No, the real question is, do we want technology keep pushing forward?

We want everything, but we cant have everything, but for a next gen console to have great looking games at good frame rate, we need current gen consoles to have great looking games at bad frame rate.

Im not sure what I want to say. Im sure theres a message there. Im a bit drunk.

Hey GAF!
Click to expand...
We went from kinda 1080p games, 30 fps, and no raytracing of last gen to trying to aim for/wanting 4k, 60 fps, and raytracing. This was just not going to go well.

I'd honestly just prefer the next gen to come quicker rather than a pro model. This way we could possibly hit all of those targets and be better prepared for the visual bump ups for the ps7 and xbsx3
 
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Raploz

Raploz

Member
Yes, if you want the ultimate graphics, Pro versions would be welcome, however, chips are not getting any cheaper. Both Playstation and now Xbox had price increases, and if they were to release Pro consoles you'd see them cost $700-$900 or even more, while the base models would stay at the release price. At that point a PC starts to be more interesting, since you can use it beyond gaming.

I think Pro consoles would be very niche devices this generation, way more niche than in the last one. While you might want them, your best bet would be building a PC at that point.
 
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Neo_game

Neo_game

Member
Phantom Liberty demo was 900P-1440P FSR2 without RT but it was dropping 50fps. Starfield demo was dropping to 20's and uses dynamic res. FF16 can drop to 720P in boss battles in performance mode. We have had DL2 run at 1080p 30fps with RT shadows. Spiderman 2 demo was 1296-1872P with RT shadows at 30fps as well. So yeah it is little disappointing.

I was expecting 1080P 60fps and 1440P 30fps to be standard but even that seems a challenge for these consoles. Pro consoles will release this gen for sure or it is going to be very short gen. lol.
 
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Loxus

Loxus

Member


It's amazing the PS 1, 2 & 3 lasted as long as they did without Pro consoles. Especially with the specs they had. Even the PS4 held up well.

Maybe instead of long generations, we should be looking at short generations. PS6 in 2025 and PS7 in 2030, if we think the PS5 can't last as long as the previous consoles did without a Pro model.
 
rofif

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
no we still don't.
It will just move the goalpost...
ff16, if anything is a prove we don't need pro. Looks and run fantastic (stable) in quality 30fps mode and it's just a 3rd party game.
I played whole last 2 days and I got so used to 30fps again, I really couldn't care. Ok it helps that 30fps here is at least pretty good with quite low input lag.

and yes. I will buy pro when it comes out because I am a sucker
 
In Cold Blood

In Cold Blood

Banned
Hey, I'm always up for a more powerful console, so sign me up.
However, devs have yet to take advantage of everything that both the PS5 and XSX have to offer.
For far too long devs have just relied on increases in raster to provide their improvement game to game. A few more high level textures, a few more polygons in each character, a bit better animations, then release that baby.

We have Medh and Primitive Shaders that are not being utilised by any third party devs. The use of these will add to performance. XSXS has Sampler Feedback Streaming which will absolutely help with RAM utilisation, yet not being used.

I think maybe if we don't have an upgrade we will see devs adopt this stuff quicker.
 
ProtoByte

ProtoByte

Member
rofif said:
no we still don't.
It will just move the goalpost...
ff16, if anything is a prove we don't need pro. Looks and run fantastic (stable) in quality 30fps mode and it's just a 3rd party game.
I played whole last 2 days and I got so used to 30fps again, I really couldn't care. Ok it helps that 30fps here is at least pretty good with quite low input lag.

and yes. I will buy pro when it comes out because I am a sucker
Click to expand...
Under no circumstances can it be stated that FF16 "runs well". That said, OP has misidentified the issue. The problem is a gaggle of poorly optimized games, from teams that have never shown to be technically proficient. Pro consoles aren't going to fix that. Lest we forget how Jedi Survivor was running on i7's and 4090s.
 
rofif

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
ProtoByte said:
Under no circumstances can it be stated that FF16 "runs well". That said, OP has misidentified the issue. The problem is a gaggle of poorly optimized games, from teams that have never shown to be technically proficient. Pro consoles aren't going to fix that. Lest we forget how Jedi Survivor was running on i7's and 4090s.
Click to expand...
Runs and looks perfect in 30fps mode. Absolutely no complaints here.

Of course the performance 60 mode runs bad because it’s half cooked shit. If they really cared about performance mode, I am sure they could do solid 60 on current ps5 with enough optimisation.
They just half assed 60 to shut up 60fps warriors from not buying the game.
 
Celcius

Celcius

°Temp. member
ProtoByte said:
Under no circumstances can it be stated that FF16 "runs well". That said, OP has misidentified the issue. The problem is a gaggle of poorly optimized games, from teams that have never shown to be technically proficient. Pro consoles aren't going to fix that. Lest we forget how Jedi Survivor was running on i7's and 4090s.
Click to expand...
You’re saying that Square Enix has never shown to be technically proficient?
What about Capcom and others as well?
 
Mr.Phoenix

Mr.Phoenix

Member
No, we do not need pro consoles. But yes it would be nice to have them.

Why we don't need them? Because people like you seem to forget that having them won't stop games from being made for the OG consoles first and foremost, but more importantly, that 95% of the rest of the world and the user base simply do not care or (and in some cases) do not even know about most of the shit we here or on sites like GAF are ready to fall on swords for.

I mean, if you take a step back and think about what most of our bickering is about... like really take a step back... you start to see how stupid most of it really is. Make no mistake, I am guilty of it like most of the people here too, the difference between me and you though (and likely a few others) is that I am fully aware that we are a very small minority, and what we think seldom ever is reflective of what is going on in the industry at large.

Once upon a time, especially with GAF... It wasn't always like that, but now, we are as far removed from the reality of the industry as most of the suits in corporate we are always attacking.

The only reason we don't notice it is cause there is no one out there attacking us like we attack them.
 
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