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[hukasmokincaterpillar]

Momentum in sports is a good analogy IMO, but its definitely tangible. You can always point to one particular play, series of plays or events (say an injury to a star player) that caused the tide to start to shift (Nintendo sticking to carts). Thats the other thing about momentum, its a two way street. In order to gain real momentum the pendulum eventually has to swing. Ground has to be lost in order for it to be significantly gained in return.

What MS did with X-Box is establish themselves as a brand in the console market. They didnt make any money from it but they got their foot in the door. Momentum for MS will be actually turning a profit in the hardware business, until that first dollar is made its not momentum its conjecture. Obviously they think splitting the SKU in this fashion will advance that process in the long run. Personally it strikes me as a dangerously presumptive gamble even for an industry built on gambling. They're trying to have their cake and eat it too it seems... but we'll see how it goes.

And I dont buy the whole OS/Live trojan horse theory one bit. Maybe Im being short sighted but I think the lure of leading with hardware will always be lucrative enough keep competition a viable enterprise. One console future not in my lifetime, I think the market is always going to be split in some manner or another. Sony has shown that to win the bread you've got to know how to take a punch in the early rounds. They're in it for the long haul as its become their sacred cow. MS wants that pie eventually... but Im starting to wonder how many rounds they're willing to go for it.

 

[Mrbob]

That last line is ominous...

Yeah, that line scared me too. :/

Che has never steered anyone wrong. If he suggests the games may be underwhelming they probably are.

 

[Dave Long]

It probably says a lot that the editors of 1UP were mostly inclined to not defend Microsoft in the first place. That also probably says a lot about the games. :-/

 

[Varian]

That made me think how hilarious it would be if the PS3 launched at $360.

How's $3.0 sound?

 

[shpankey]

My point is almost anything is momentum when you have nothing. That's why it's a very bad thing to argue for. It requires so many qualifiers. Of course Xbox gained some momentum. It got some solid developer support, it outsold PS2 in America for a while in 2004. But what does Sony have then?

Here's my point. Momentum only means something when it outpaces the momentum the competition has. Momentum means nothing in terms of how we're discussing it, because it's an excuse imho. It's a way for people to argue its base without going into the facts.

It's just the most annoying word in the world now. Every company tries to use it in some way, and hardcore gamers on message boards are just bludgering it..

Yes, good points, indeed. I see what you mean now.

 

[gofreak]

Yeah, that line scared me too. :/

Che has never steered anyone wrong. If he suggests the games may be underwhelming they probably are.

The first time I read that, I didn't think twice that he was talking about the price of the games.

 

[----]

I thought they did a good job of expressing a lot of the concerns and dissatisfaction out there.

I also thought that it was a very interesting little tidbit they revealed that 1UP was told by Allard at E3 that there would definitely be 1 worldwide SKU and that retailers told them that they definitely preferred 1 SKU.

This coincides with my feelings that MS has now pissed off gamers, developers, retailers, and the media in one fell swoop.

1 thing I adamantly disagree with is the example of the PSP used in this roundtable. They claim that the PSP was not a big seller in the US because it only had 1 expensive SKU at launch. As far as I know the PSP is doing much better in the states than it is in Japan where 2 SKU's were available. Also the PSP had one of the most successful console launches in history in the United States and we can't forget that the system launched in March. I think the 1 SKU approach to PSP has worked out exceedingly well for Sony. Look at the July NPD report, the PSP is selling like hotcakes. If anything I think the PSP should have been used as an example of a 1 SKU approach doing better than a 2 SKU approach.

 

[AniHawk]

Yeah, that line scared me too. :/

Che has never steered anyone wrong. If he suggests the games may be underwhelming they probably are.

I thought he was talking about the price of the games.

 

[inpHilltr8r]

MS have stated only 7 on X360. PS2 achieves 8.

 

[Optimistic]

I thought he was talking about the price of the games.

That would be the logical conclusion - but this is Gaming Age, where logic does not apply.

 

[border]

Well, I don't think there's any "logical conclusion" for a statement as nebulous as the one Che made....some people will assume the best ($10 price increase), some people will assume the worst (games that look or play shitty) depending on their biases.

 

[Triumph]

Meh, I'm more pissed about the prospect of a $60 price tag for a game than the $400 system price.

Good video, tho.

 

[mrklaw]

not to the casuals when ms THEN drops the price to $299-$349 for the premium pack and the games look no better on the ps3 even with its $399+ price point...

casuals aren't going to be buying the PS3 at launch.

Casuals probably aren't even buying Xbox 360 at PS3 launch.

But by Christmas 2006, any casuals that are thinking of buying an xbox 360 will see that PS3 is around (albeit out of their price range) and may choose to wait if they think PS3 is a safer option.

It has more stuff, more power (will be pushed as such by Sony), has BC, has the Playstation brand. What part of that is not perfectly pitched to Joe Average? Sony don't need to sell them PS3 immediately, they just need them to not buy X360

 

[border]

What I don't get is how they think $299 is really an entry-level price for casual gamers. Most people balked at a $299 PS2 and Xbox. Chances are that they are likely to do the same here....particularly when they see the cost of essential accesories. If they can go to $199 at the PS3 launch then things will be very serious, but right now I'm not seeing a huge advantage to the two-SKU setup.

 

[Borys]

Sony don't need to sell them PS3 immediately, they just need them to not buy X360

And vice versa.

 

[Triumph]

Really guys, shit costs more as time drags on. Inflation blah blah blah. Sure MS goofed, but it's probably a question of profits more than anything. I know we're all rabid consumers and cheap ass gamers, but did we really expect to get a next gen where we didn't get hit a little harder in the wallets, especially considering that we tend to have a pretty good idea of how the industry works?

I'm still not getting one at launch, tho. I'll wait for Gears of War/price drop.

 

[mrklaw]

And vice versa.

Agreed. And with a 200m installed base of Playstations (1+2) Vs 20m Xboxes, who do you think will have an easier time of this?

 

[shpankey]

Well, I don't think there's any "logical conclusion" for a statement as nebulous as the one Che made....some people will assume the best ($10 price increase), some people will assume the worst (games that look or play shitty) depending on their biases.

Or we could just ask him. Che is a regular here (aka: chespace).

 

[Gattsu25]

Well, I don't think there's any "logical conclusion" for a statement as nebulous as the one Che made....some people will assume the best ($10 price increase), some people will assume the worst (games that look or play shitty) depending on their biases.

His entire post was about price, his last line references games (which happen to be raising in price, coincidentally) and he then goes on to say in a later post:

$60 games as a standard blows my balls though.

I think it's obvious he's talking about game prices...but that's just me :b

 

[dlobro1080]

When the 360 comes out, it will obviously be the games that matter. We've learned over the last few years that technological power does not equal most successful system. If Madden 360 is great, PD0 is great, Tony Hawk and the others (it is a pretty impressive launch lineup) are great, then we'll all be happy. We can buy our premium packs at launch and Joe Average can get the core pack at Christmas, and then viola. There'll be a solid user base by the time HALO 3 comes out, which I'm guessing will be the same day the PS3 comes out.

Of course, if the games haven't shaped up (especially PD0), then who the hell knows what will happen. I'm guessing word of mouth will kill the thing.

Dan

 

[sonycowboy]

When the 360 comes out, it will obviously be the games that matter. We've learned over the last few years that technological power does not equal most successful system. If Madden 360 is great, PD0 is great, Tony Hawk and the others (it is a pretty impressive launch lineup) are great, then we'll all be happy. We can buy our premium packs at launch and Joe Average can get the core pack at Christmas, and then viola. There'll be a solid user base by the time HALO 3 comes out, which I'm guessing will be the same day the PS3 comes out.

Besides the dropping of the HDD & Wireless controller as standard config, this is the thing that surprised me the most about the pricing announcement. I think most of us expected Microsoft to be incredibly aggressive regarding pricing so that they could have the absolute highest userbase possible before the PS3 launch. While they do have the $299 core system, the 1st year buyers are generally pretty knowledgeable about the system, by and large. Certainly more than later down the road. So, many of those folk will see that the $399 package is by far the better package, and yet also recognize that the 360 will cost them $500+ by the time they get a game or two.

To me, that necessarily means, that the installed userbase will be lower than it could have been if they had been more aggressive. However, on the flip side, maybe Microsoft has decided that sprinting the first mile of a marathon isn't the smartest thing to do.

 

[bill0527]

Where was the outrage when MS released this for 110 bucks.

I dont see how the price for the wifi adapter is even an issue. It shouldent be since you can go out and buy one on your own for 40 bucks. Or just use one of the adapters you allready have.

I think some mis-conceptions need to be clared up. Maybe they already have, and I just missed it, but I'll try to be concise.

The Microsoft Xbox gaming adapter pictured is not a $40 USB wi-fi adapter. It is an ethernet bridge and it is comparably priced to other ethernet bridges made by other companies. Xbox had no USB ports so there was no way to go out and buy a $40 USB wi-fi adapter and make it work.

Xbox 360 DOES have USB ports, but I still seriously doubt a $40 USB wi-fi adapter is going to work in the system because according to J Allard in his chat yesterday, Xbox 360's USB ports are read-only and they haven't been engineered so that data can be moved both ways. You can plug your iPod into it, you can plug your PSP into it, or any other type of music player, but Xbox 360 will only read what's on the device. You can't save anything from Xbox 360 to these devices because the data can only move one direction and that is into the system and not out of it.

Oh and I just want to say that...

I think one thing MSFT is doing is banking on their 'loyal' fanbase. I think they believe their hardcore fans will stick through them through anything. The thing is, we won't. Most of us are tech heads and people who have no problem switching camps to where we think the best tech and bang for the buck is. We aren't fucking Nintendo fans, who will take it up the ass and smile.

When the Xbox hit, it's value was off the fucking charts. More power, hard drive, built in network adapter, xbox live, Halo and some damn good games that other fanboys wouldn't even look at due to their biases. But for those of us that look at things as they are, we seen tremendous value in the system. We also seen a lot of injustice for a worthy system not getting a chance due to fanboyism, so we stuck up for it.

Now, MSFT thinks they can just turn us around and fuck us in the ass and we'll take it cause we're their fanbase? They seriously don't know their fanbase at all then. We have no reason, or have ever been given a reason other than maybe Halo, to do something like that. At least Nintendo fans have been rewarded throughout the years with (what they deem) awesome games, and that is reason enough to take a little ass cocking every once in awhile.

Anyhow... PS3 for me. I could not be any more dissapointed with the direction the X360 has taken than I am right now. Why they couldn't just pack in the HDD standard, one wired controller, a bare bones system and drop all the extra fluff and sell it for $299 and made up the difference in sales of accesories (reasonably priced of course) is beyond me.

IAWTP

I've owned a PS2 since launch day and didn't get an Xbox until Nov. 2002. I feel that from 2003-present day, the Xbox is a much better value than a PS2 system compared to what you get for the same price. Once Xbox got rolling with some great exclusives in 2003 and 2004, I think the system really took off. This is what I mean by momentum. Maybe not momentum compared to Sony in terms of sales, but momentum compared to where the console was at for the first 2 years of its life. The console did a 180-degree turn as far as game quality and selection over the last couple of years.

 

[Vieo]

I'm still trying to figure out how Xbox beat GCN for second place regardless of selling like week old cheese burgers in Japan and it's general lack of Japanese dev support (read: no japanese rpgs).

 

[Musashi Wins!]

I'm still trying to figure out how Xbox beat GCN for second place regardless of selling like week old cheese burgers in Japan and it's general lack of Japanese dev support (read: no japanese rpgs).

games.

 

[dlobro1080]

>>Besides the dropping of the HDD & Wireless controller as standard config, this is the thing that surprised me the most about the pricing announcement. I think most of us expected Microsoft to be incredibly aggressive regarding pricing so that they could have the absolute highest userbase possible before the PS3 launch. While they do have the $299 core system, the 1st year buyers are generally pretty knowledgeable about the system, by and large. Certainly more than later down the road. So, many of those folk will see that the $399 package is by far the better package, and yet also recognize that the 360 will cost them $500+ by the time they get a game or two.

To me, that necessarily means, that the installed userbase will be lower than it could have been if they had been more aggressive. However, on the flip side, maybe Microsoft has decided that sprinting the first mile of a marathon isn't the smartest thing to do.<<

That's true. I think if they announced the core system at $199, we'd all be saying, "Holy shit, nice move. Only Nintendo is going to be able to match that price." $199 is a lot more attractive than $299, and is much more of a digestible price for the casual fan. But they probably cannot afford to do that. Not yet anyway. And while we don't know what Sony will price the PS3 at, I have to hand it to Microsoft for trying something new and putting the pressure on Sony. The general consensus is that the PS3 will come in at around $399. Even though the core pack may not be the best value, may lack a HD, MS can still say, "Hey, for $299 you can play next-gen Madden and HALO 3," and it looks like Sony may not be able to say that. As for Nintendo, I love 'em, but at this point they're like senile grandparents. You love them but they're out of touch and do things that don't make much sense.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

I thought they did a good job of expressing a lot of the concerns and dissatisfaction out there.

I also thought that it was a very interesting little tidbit they revealed that 1UP was told by Allard at E3 that there would definitely be 1 worldwide SKU and that retailers told them that they definitely preferred 1 SKU.

This coincides with my feelings that MS has now pissed off gamers, developers, retailers, and the media in one fell swoop.

1 thing I adamantly disagree with is the example of the PSP used in this roundtable. They claim that the PSP was not a big seller in the US because it only had 1 expensive SKU at launch. As far as I know the PSP is doing much better in the states than it is in Japan where 2 SKU's were available. Also the PSP had one of the most successful console launches in history in the United States and we can't forget that the system launched in March. I think the 1 SKU approach to PSP has worked out exceedingly well for Sony. Look at the July NPD report, the PSP is selling like hotcakes. If anything I think the PSP should have been used as an example of a 1 SKU approach doing better than a 2 SKU approach.

Yeah, this is the main reason for the backlash in my opinion. I think the press, the developers, and the hardcore audience were all dreading a split-market with the two SKUs. I know that I don't want the Crippled Pack, but I'm also reluctant to pay an extra $100 for the Premium Pack if most developers are going to ignore the hard drive feature for the most part (some will be better than others).

Also, Allard flat out lied to the audience about the built-in features of the Xbox 360. Wireless controllers were supposed to be the standard, wi-fi gaming was supposed to be the standard, HD resolutions are supposed to be the standard (give us free component cables you moron or let us use our old cables from the Xbox), A FRICKIN' HARD DRIVE was supposed to be standard...but somehow all of these things became expensive options.

My hype for the Xbox 360 launch fell from a firey ten to a frosty 2 overnight. I was once sure I'd be picking up the system at launch with 2-3 games, now I'm not so sure I'll be getting one for at least a year. I feel like Microsoft intentionally lied and deceived people for the past 6 months while they KNEW this gouging strategy was going to be announced at this time.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

casuals and hype.

Fixed.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Fixed.

Well, I didn't mean games for Jeff-DSA and his refined tastes. Obviously the PS2 must have even more casuals and hype if that's always the reason for the Cube's failure.

 

[SolidSnakex]

It wouldn't have mattered if MS had the same hype and casual appeal that they have with the Xbox if Nintendo hadn't done such a terrible job with the GC. They essentially handed 2nd place to MS.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Well, I didn't mean games for Jeff-DSA and his refined tastes. Obviously the PS2 must have even more casuals and hype if that's always the reason for the Cube's failure.

No, the PS2 is the ONLY console with a complete library this generation. I'm not saying that the Xbox has a weak library, I'm just saying it benefitted A LOT from casual hype as compared to the GameCube.

 

[jarrod]

It wouldn't have mattered if MS had the same hype and casual appeal that they have with the Xbox if Nintendo hadn't done such a terrible job with the GC. They essentially handed 2nd place to MS.

It's true... Xbox passing GC was more Nintendo's fault than Microsoft's. Microsoft shouldn't exactly be too proud though, given they have the worst performing 2nd place console since the 1980s.

 

[dlobro1080]

>>Also, Allard flat out lied to the audience about the built-in features of the Xbox 360. Wireless controllers were supposed to be the standard, wi-fi gaming was supposed to be the standard, HD resolutions are supposed to be the standard (give us free component cables you moron or let us use our old cables from the Xbox), A FRICKIN' HARD DRIVE was supposed to be standard...but somehow all of these things became expensive options.<<

I understand your frustration, but does it really matter if wireless controllers are standard, or if wi-fi gaming is standard? Yes, it sucks that to get that, you have to go with the more expensive option, but the important thing is that you have the option! There are tons of different DVD players out there, tons of different iPods, but I'm guessing you were able to choose the one right for you. There is no standard there, but the markets have thrived. I know I'm happy with my DVD player that meets my requirements, and my 30GB iPod that was the right price and had the right amount of space for me. So, I'll be getting the premium pack, cause it has what I want. To some people, they're not gonna care about wireless controller, wi-fi, or having a hard drive, so they'll go with the core option, and why not? How does that affect me? It doesn't. My point is that MS is taking chance by releasing a system that has no standard, and I have to say that I think it's a very smart business move.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

>>Also, Allard flat out lied to the audience about the built-in features of the Xbox 360. Wireless controllers were supposed to be the standard, wi-fi gaming was supposed to be the standard, HD resolutions are supposed to be the standard (give us free component cables you moron or let us use our old cables from the Xbox), A FRICKIN' HARD DRIVE was supposed to be standard...but somehow all of these things became expensive options.<<

I understand your frustration, but does it really matter if wireless controllers are standard, or if wi-fi gaming is standard? Yes, it sucks that to get that, you have to go with the more expensive option, but the important thing is that you have the option! There are tons of different DVD players out there, tons of different iPods, but I'm guessing you were able to choose the one right for you. There is no standard there, but the markets have thrived. I know I'm happy with my DVD player that meets my requirements, and my 30GB iPod that was the right price and had the right amount of space for me. So, I'll be getting the premium pack, cause it has what I want. To some people, they're not gonna care about wireless controller, wi-fi, or having a hard drive, so they'll go with the core option, and why not? How does that affect me? It doesn't. My point is that MS is taking chance by releasing a system that has no standard, and I have to say that I think it's a very smart business move.

There is a difference between iPods and gaming consoles though. You don't have music developers deciding whether or not it's worth the extra effort to take advantage of an iPod's hard drive or not. With the Xbox 360 that will be a real issue for each game developed. Had MS made the hard drive standard, the decision would be much simpler to just support hard drive features.

 

[dlobro1080]

<<There is a difference between iPods and gaming consoles though. You don't have music developers deciding whether or not it's worth the extra effort to take advantage of an iPod's hard drive or not. With the Xbox 360 that will be a real issue for each game developed. Had MS made the hard drive standard, the decision would be much simpler to just support hard drive features.<<

Absolutely true. History will show how developers ignoring/not ignoring the 360 hard drive turns out. But I think we were spoiled by Xbox1. I owned all 3 systems, and PS2 and Gamecube, at their best, did just fine without hard drives. Why should X360 be any different? Granted, it may be a step backwards, but my guess is that the MS business people were saying, "Um, if you want to include a hard drive with the system and not break the bank, we have to lauch at $399, and since that's too expensive a launch price, we'll need to release a bare bones system at $299 so that we don't frighten everyone away."

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Absolutely true. History will show how developers ignoring/not ignoring the 360 hard drive turns out. But I think we were spoiled by Xbox1. I owned all 3 systems, and PS2 and Gamecube, at their best, did just fine without hard drives. Why should X360 be any different? Granted, it may be a step backwards, but my guess is that the MS business people were saying, "Um, if you want to include a hard drive with the system and not break the bank, we have to lauch at $399, and since that's too expensive a launch price, we'll need to release a bare bones system at $299 so that we don't frighten everyone away."

I can agree that the PS2 and GameCube were ok without hard drives, but I was very spoiled by the Xbox load times. I guess making the hard drive optional next gen isn't so much of a step backwards as it is a step back in line...

 

[Speevy]

I'm still trying to figure out how Xbox beat GCN for second place regardless of selling like week old cheese burgers in Japan and it's general lack of Japanese dev support (read: no japanese rpgs).

A comparison of what one platform has that the other does not, 80% review scores or above. Forgive me if this list is slightly off.

1. Halo: Combat Evolved XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 87 8.8 94.9% 95.5%
2. Halo 2 XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 96 8.2 94.0% 95.1%
3. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic XBOX LucasArts 98 9.0 93.9% 94.7%
4. Grand Theft Auto Double Pack XBOX Rockstar Games 52 8.8 93.7% 93.8%
6. Burnout 3: Takedown XBOX EA Games 73 8.9 92.1% 93.3%
7. Project Gotham Racing 2 XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 84 8.6 92.2% 92.9%
10. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas XBOX Rockstar Games 58 8.3 92.4% 92.6%
12. Forza Motorsport XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 73 8.5 92.7% 92.3%
13. Ninja Gaiden XBOX Tecmo 88 8.8 91.7% 92.3%
15. Pro Evolution Soccer 4 XBOX Konami 14 8.4 91.3% 91.5%
16. Psychonauts XBOX Majesco Games 42 7.9 90.6% 90.4%
17. Panzer Dragoon Orta XBOX Sega 82 8.3 89.9% 90.2%
20. Crimson Skies: High Road to Revenge XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 88 8.5 89.6% 89.8%
22. Halo 2 Multiplayer Map Pack XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 36 8.0 87.9% 89.5%
25. ESPN NFL Football XBOX Sega 33 8.1 88.9% 89.5%
26. World Series Baseball 2K3 XBOX Sega 31 8.0 88.8% 89.5%
27. ESPN NFL 2K5 XBOX Sega 54 8.7 90.7% 89.3%
28. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind Game of the Year Edition XBOX Bethesda Softworks 24 8.7 88.3% 89.3%
30. NCAA Football 06 XBOX EA Sports 33 7.9 89.1% 89.1%
32. Jade Empire XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 79 8.5 88.7% 88.8%
33. World Soccer Winning Eleven 8 International XBOX Konami 22 8.3 89.1% 88.8%
35. Brothers in Arms: Road to Hill 30 XBOX Ubisoft 66 8.5 89.1% 88.7%
39. Rallisport Challenge 2 XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 74 8.4 88.5% 88.6%
40. The Chronicles of Riddick: Escape From Butcher Bay XBOX VU Games 79 8.5 88.9% 88.5%
46. Top Spin XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 80 8.2 87.4% 87.9%
49. MotoGP 2 XBOX THQ 49 8.2 87.6% 87.6%
54. Rallisport Challenge XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 77 8.2 87.6% 87.4%
56. Oddworld Stranger's Wrath XBOX EA Games 64 8.1 87.4% 87.3%
58. Midnight Club II XBOX Rockstar Games 56 7.7 85.9% 87.1%
60. Unreal Championship 2: The Liandri Conflict XBOX Midway 48 8.0 87.4% 87.0%
62. Doom 3 XBOX Activision 80 8.2 87.4% 87.0%
63. MechAssault XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 74 7.9 86.5% 87.0%
65. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind XBOX Bethesda Softworks 72 8.5 86.4% 87.0%
66. World Series Baseball XBOX Sega 32 8.0 84.8% 86.9%
67. Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance XBOX Konami 64 8.4 87.2% 86.9%
68. Project Gotham Racing XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 78 8.0 87.4% 86.8%
70. ESPN NBA Basketball XBOX Sega 19 7.6 87.0% 86.5%
71. MotoGP XBOX THQ 53 7.9 86.4% 86.5%
72. JSRF: Jet Set Radio Future XBOX Sega 86 7.7 87.2% 86.4%
74. ESPN NHL 2K5 XBOX Sega 37 8.2 85.9% 86.0%
75. Colin McRae Rally 3 XBOX Codemasters 63 7.6 85.9% 86.0%
76. Max Payne 2: The Fall of Max Payne XBOX Rockstar Games 54 8.2 85.2% 86.0%
77. Colin McRae Rally 04 XBOX Codemasters 44 7.6 85.5% 86.0%
78. Mercenaries XBOX LucasArts 58 8.5 84.9% 85.9%
80. Dead or Alive 3 XBOX Tecmo 67 8.3 85.7% 85.8%
81. NASCAR 2005: Chase for the Cup XBOX EA Games 21 7.3 85.4% 85.7%
82. Midnight Club 3: DUB Edition XBOX Rockstar Games 56 8.1 85.6% 85.6%
84. Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords XBOX LucasArts 60 8.5 86.1% 85.6%
87. Max Payne XBOX Rockstar Games 63 8.1 85.8% 85.4%
88. Deus Ex: Invisible War XBOX Eidos Interactive 66 8.2 84.3% 85.4%
89. Championship Manager Season: 02/03 XBOX Eidos Interactive 14 7.0 84.7% 85.4%
90. Steel Battalion XBOX Capcom 30 8.2 84.4% 85.3%
92. ESPN College Hoops 2K5 XBOX Sega 17 7.2 86.1% 85.0%
93. TOCA Race Driver 2: The Ultimate Racing Simulator XBOX Codemasters 44 7.6 84.6% 85.0%
95. Tony Hawk's Underground XBOX Activision 48 8.4 85.2% 84.9%
98. Fable XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 97 8.3 85.2% 84.8%
99. Fatal Frame II: Crimson Butterfly Director's Cut XBOX Tecmo 35 7.4 84.7% 84.7%
100. Guilty Gear X2 #Reload XBOX Majesco Games 36 7.8 85.1% 84.7%
101. Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six 3: Black Arrow XBOX Ubisoft 53 8.2 85.1% 84.7%
105. Fight Night 2004 XBOX EA Sports 51 7.6 84.5% 84.3%
106. Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Tides of War XBOX Activision 65 8.2 84.2% 84.3%
107. NASCAR Thunder 2004 XBOX EA Games 16 6.7 83.1% 84.1%
109. ESPN NBA 2K5 XBOX Sega 33 8.0 84.6% 84.0%
115. Full Spectrum Warrior XBOX THQ 74 7.9 84.1% 83.6%
116. Psi-Ops: The Mindgate Conspiracy XBOX Midway 61 8.1 83.8% 83.5%
117. Colin McRae Rally 2005 XBOX Codemasters 37 7.4 83.7% 83.5%
118. Unreal Championship XBOX Atari 66 8.0 83.9% 83.5%
119. Links 2004 XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 69 7.8 82.3% 83.1%
120. Dead or Alive Ultimate XBOX Tecmo 63 8.4 84.1% 83.1%
121. Major League Baseball 2K5 XBOX Take-Two Interactive 23 7.1 81.8% 83.1%
124. NBA Ballers XBOX Midway 41 7.2 82.3% 83.0%
126. Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2x XBOX Activision 32 7.3 82.5% 82.9%
136. Wakeboarding Unleashed Featuring Shaun Murray XBOX Activision 42 7.8 81.2% 82.3%
137. Silent Hill 2: Restless Dreams XBOX Konami 43 7.7 81.6% 82.3%
139. Amped 2 XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 74 7.6 82.4% 82.2%
140. Sega GT 2002 XBOX Sega 51 7.3 82.8% 82.0%
141. Shenmue II XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 67 8.2 80.7% 81.9%
142. MLB Slugfest 20-03 XBOX Midway 17 6.9 83.1% 81.8%
143. Amped: Freestyle Snowboarding XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 65 7.2 81.0% 81.8%
145. High Heat Major League Baseball 2004 XBOX 3DO 17 6.4 81.6% 81.7%
147. Darkwatch XBOX Capcom 10 7.8 80.8% 81.6%
148. Dance Dance Revolution Ultramix XBOX Konami 29 6.0 82.5% 81.6%
149. The Suffering XBOX Midway 52 7.9 81.5% 81.5%
151. F1 2001 XBOX Electronic Arts 15 6.4 81.3% 81.5%
153. Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon: Island Thunder XBOX Ubisoft 58 8.0 81.1% 81.3% 155. MechAssault 2: Lone Wolf XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 67 7.8 81.8% 81.3%
156. Thief: Deadly Shadows XBOX Eidos Interactive 58 7.9 80.9% 81.2%
157. Dance Dance Revolution Ultramix 2 XBOX Konami 17 6.0 80.5% 81.2%
159. Otogi: Myth of Demons XBOX Sega 69 8.0 80.4% 81.2%
160. NCAA March Madness 2005 XBOX EA Sports 17 5.9 80.1% 81.1%
161. Phantom Dust XBOX Majesco Games 40 7.3 82.4% 81.1%
162. Pro Race Driver XBOX Codemasters 37 6.7 81.0% 81.1%
167. Sid Meier's Pirates! XBOX 2K Games 41 7.3 81.4% 80.7%
169. NCAA March Madness 2004 XBOX Electronic Arts 17 6.0 80.1% 80.6%
170. Kingdom Under Fire: The Crusaders XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 53 8.1 79.7% 80.6%
172. Genma Onimusha XBOX Capcom 49 7.4 80.5% 80.6%
173. NFL Fever 2002 XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 37 7.3 80.3% 80.5%
175. Fatal Frame XBOX Tecmo 29 7.5 79.2% 80.3%
176. Buffy the Vampire Slayer XBOX Electronic Arts 73 7.6 79.9% 80.3%
179. MTV Music Generator 3: This Is the Remix XBOX Codemasters 28 5.0 79.4% 80.3%
180. Deathrow XBOX Ubisoft 55 7.8 81.1% 80.2%
182. Chessmaster XBOX Ubisoft 15 5.3 80.5% 79.9%
184. Project: Snowblind XBOX Eidos Interactive 41 7.5 81.5% 79.9%
185. NASCAR Heat 2002 XBOX Atari 22 6.3 78.2% 79.8%
188. NFL Fever 2003 XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 48 7.1 77.5% 79.7%
191. Otogi 2: Immortal Warriors XBOX Sega 36 7.8 79.7% 79.7%
192. OutRun2 XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 54 7.6 79.8% 79.6%
193. Star Wars: Battlefront XBOX LucasArts 56 8.0 79.2% 79.5%
194. Midtown Madness 3 XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 77 7.5 79.5% 79.5

vs.

1. Metroid Prime GC Nintendo 87 8.8 95.5% 96.4%
2. Resident Evil 4 GC Capcom 79 9.2 96.1% 96.1%
3. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker GC Nintendo 88 8.9 94.5% 94.7%
5. The Legend of Zelda Collector's Edition GC Nintendo 12 9.0 92.2% 92.9%
8. Metroid Prime 2: Echoes GC Nintendo 57 8.6 92.1% 91.9%
9. Viewtiful Joe GC Capcom 71 8.6 92.0% 91.6%
10. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time GC Nintendo 20 9.1 90.0% 91.4%
11. Super Mario Sunshine GC Nintendo 77 8.4 89.9% 91.4%
12. Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem GC Nintendo 79 8.7 91.2% 91.0%
20. Super Smash Bros. Melee GC Nintendo 67 8.9 90.1% 90.1%
21. Resident Evil GC Capcom 68 8.7 90.0% 90.0%
22. Star Wars Rogue Leader: Rogue Squadron II GC LucasArts 75 8.3 89.3% 89.9%
27. Pikmin 2 GC Nintendo 48 8.7 89.3% 89.3%
28. F-Zero GX GC Nintendo 73 8.6 89.5% 89.1%
36. Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door GC Nintendo 53 8.5 87.2% 87.9%
37. Mario Kart: Double Dash!! GC Nintendo 69 8.7 86.3% 87.9%
49. Animal Crossing GC Nintendo 66 8.4 87.6% 86.8%
50. Skies of Arcadia Legends GC Sega 50 8.3 85.5% 86.2%
52. Pikmin GC Nintendo 70 8.0 86.9% 86.0%
54. Tales of Symphonia GC Namco 67 8.5 85.8% 85.5%
57. Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes GC Konami 67 8.8 85.0% 85.4%
58. Ikaruga GC Atari 65 8.3 85.6% 85.3%
65. Viewtiful Joe 2 GC Capcom 35 7.9 85.4% 84.8%
68. The Legend of Zelda: Four Swords Adventures GC Nintendo 53 8.5 84.0% 84.6%
80. Resident Evil 0 GC Capcom 67 8.4 84.2% 82.8%
81. Wave Race: Blue Storm GC Nintendo 57 7.5 82.5% 82.6%
82. Baten Kaitos: Eternal Wings and the Lost Ocean GC Namco 46 8.1 82.2% 82.4%
84. Donkey Kong Jungle Beat GC Nintendo 45 8.2 82.1% 82.3%
86. Mario Power Tennis GC Nintendo 38 8.3 83.1% 81.9%
87. Mario Golf: Toadstool Tour GC Nintendo 49 8.1 81.9% 81.9%
98. Star Fox Adventures GC Nintendo 71 7.9 82.0% 81.1%
108. Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles GC Nintendo 64 8.1 80.2% 80.3%
109. Pac-Man vs. GC Namco 36 7.3 80.9% 80.3%
114. Luigi's Mansion GC Nintendo 66 7.3 79.1% 79.6%

 

[Jeff-DSA]

A comparison of what one platform has that the other does not, 80% review scores or above. Forgive me if this list is slightly off.

1. Halo: Combat Evolved XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 87 8.8 94.9% 95.5%
2. Halo 2 XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 96 8.2 94.0% 95.1%
3. Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic XBOX LucasArts 98 9.0 93.9% 94.7%
....

194. Midtown Madness 3 XBOX Microsoft Game Studios 77 7.5 79.5% 79.5

vs.

1. Metroid Prime GC Nintendo 87 8.8 95.5% 96.4%
2. Resident Evil 4 GC Capcom 79 9.2 96.1% 96.1%
3. The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker GC Nintendo 88 8.9 94.5% 94.7%
5. The Legend of Zelda Collector's Edition GC Nintendo 12 9.0 92.2% 92.9%
...
108. Final Fantasy: Crystal Chronicles GC Nintendo 64 8.1 80.2% 80.3%
109. Pac-Man vs. GC Namco 36 7.3 80.9% 80.3%
114. Luigi's Mansion GC Nintendo 66 7.3 79.1% 79.6%

It seems like there are missing titles in both lists. Madden didn't show in either, and the Sega Sports line is present in the Xbox lists absent from the GCN one. Did you pull this off of gamerankings.com or something? There are some weird gaps on each side...

 

[Speevy]

I was showing what one platform has that the other doesn't. I thought I posted that. Both have Madden... Also, ESPN games are not on the Cube.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

omg speevy don't play list war. I was merely saying that consumers tend to go for games and nintendo fans always say it's advertising/marketing, etc. I'm not implying anyone here need appreciate one more than the other, we can all have our own tastes.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

I was showing what one platform has that the other doesn't. I thought I posted that. Both have Madden... Also, ESPN games are not on the Cube.

They were when they were part of the Sega Sports name.

 

[Speevy]

omg speevy don't play list war. I was merely saying that consumers tend to go for games and nintendo fans always say it's advertising/marketing, etc. I'm not implying anyone here need appreciate one more than the other, we can all have our own tastes.

Well it's pretty easy to say "Well, the casuals never gave the Gamecube a chance." when in fact, there are plenty of publishers who didn't either.

 

[Speevy]

They were when they were part of the Sega Sports name.

Excuse me. Then I should take NFL 2K2 off the Xbox list. Otherwise, it's a wash, like I said. I excluded everything that appears on both platforms.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Well it's pretty easy to say "Well, the casuals never gave the Gamecube a chance." when in fact, there are plenty of publishers who didn't either.

You can't really blame the publishers though...the Cube fans suck at supporting anything besides 1st and 2nd party efforts.

Basically, GameCube fans doomed the GameCube to 3rd place. If they weren't so freaking reluctant to try something without Mario in it, maybe they would have had good support throughout the life of the system. The controller was weird, yes, but if the gamers would have bought 3rd party titles, the developers would have released games on the system regardless.

 

[TheDuce22]

The Microsoft Xbox gaming adapter pictured is not a $40 USB wi-fi adapter. It is an ethernet bridge and it is comparably priced to other ethernet bridges made by other companies. Xbox had no USB ports so there was no way to go out and buy a $40 USB wi-fi adapter and make it work.

Xbox 360 DOES have USB ports, but I still seriously doubt a $40 USB wi-fi adapter is going to work in the system because according to J Allard in his chat yesterday, Xbox 360's USB ports are read-only and they haven't been engineered so that data can be moved both ways. You can plug your iPod into it, you can plug your PSP into it, or any other type of music player, but Xbox 360 will only read what's on the device. You can't save anything from Xbox 360 to these devices because the data can only move one direction and that is into the system and not out of it.

Even if thats true and generic usb adapters dont work whats to stop you from getting an ethernet bridge for 30-50 bucks. They arent much more than the usb devices.

 

[TheDiave]

Just watched it... Notice that they approach the two skus like it's the worst business decision ever in the video game world, yet they all plan on buying one. Figure that out.

 

[IJoel]

Even if thats true and generic usb adapters dont work whats to stop you from getting an ethernet bridge for 30-50 bucks. They arent much more than the usb devices.

Can you point us where we could get it? All the ones I've seen sell from $80 to $100.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

Just watched it... Notice that they approach the two skus like it's the worst business decision ever in the video game world, yet they all plan on buying one. Figure that out.

it's pretty easy to figure out. this whole thing stinks, but being video game fanatics, even though I'm convinced I won't get one at launch...you'll pretty much have to chain my door shut on some day when I'm sitting around bored with the money in the account. new hardware is new hardware.

 

[Dr_Cogent]

Just watched it... Notice that they approach the two skus like it's the worst business decision ever in the video game world, yet they all plan on buying one. Figure that out.

Cause they're nerds with enough spare cash to have the latest and greatest technology.

I used to be one of those guys, but I don't have that kind of cash anymore. It's all eaten up by more important things.

 

[chespace]

Just watched it... Notice that they approach the two skus like it's the worst business decision ever in the video game world, yet they all plan on buying one. Figure that out.

Well, when Jane asked whether a bunch of game editors were all going to buy an Xbox 360, it was loaded to begin with. But if I didn't work in the industry, I would have serious reservations about dropping $500+ dollars on next gen this holiday season. That's bleeding edge right there. Plus, for a lot of hardcore Xbox hardware junkies, many of the features touted by the 360 have already been done before via mod chips and such. But the Xbox 360 is here to stay and at some point, probably ALL of you will own this system in its various configurations. All we're questioning is whether it pays to be an early adopter when there's no Halo in the immediate future.

Anyway, you guys raised a ton of good points in this thread, even though most of it is basically bitching about price and dual-SKU. Sorry I didn't mean to throw out an ominous comment about 360 games earlier. As someone pointed out earlier, I meant that $500 bucks was your basic wi-fi package... then you've gotta pay $60 a pop for at least a couple games, right? Let's not forget that second wireless controller (why does it cost 15 bucks more than a Wavebird?).

I read that majornelson Q&A session in bed on my PSP last night... did J Allard really address why it costs 100 bucks for a 20 gig HDD? I seem to remember the question, but I don't remember the answer.

 

[Musashi Wins!]

I read that majornelson Q&A session in bed on my PSP last night... did J Allard really address why it costs 100 bucks for a 20 gig HDD? I seem to remember the question, but I don't remember the answer.

does this mean you upgraded your firmware?

I think he said the same line about it being a special HDD, fitted for the machine blah blah.