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Yoko Taro (Nier Automata) Addresses the 2B butt controversy

Dio

Banned
Yoko Taro has directed Drakengard 3, with a former prostitute who killed her sisters and stole their men as a protagonist. He's the only person I've ever seen to create such a powerful and sexually active/dominant female protagonist in a videogame with a reverse harem - its implied that sometimes the men are actually in the traditionally female role in bed when Zero tells one of her men to "clean up both front and rear."

I get the feeling the androids in Automata are specifically designed to also provide for sexual relief for humans. It would hardly be out of his zone.
 

Audioboxer

Member
lol, indeed.

That being said, this has a good chance of being the best selling PlatinumGames game, but yeah, I doubt it sets the world on fire sales-wise.

If it reviews well, and by well I mean 7's and reviewers actually finishing it, then it might.

Nier had a great story and characters but was shat on via terrible gameplay and jank. If Platinum can do the gameplay justice here and we get a Nier type story, we should be looking good. I just worry about the expectations and pressure to do "Nier" again. Automata could fall under the weight of expectations and while great gameplay can hold up a narrative Nier became a cult classic because of the narrative, not the gameplay.
 
So apparently in this thread having an anime avatar means you are a neo-nazi or a gamergater?

What the fuck is this? Avatar stereotyping?

Who exactly in this thread is doing this?

Are you sure you haven't just misread the clarification that this supposed butt "controversy" was manufactured by a Gamergater who may have just so happened to use an anime avatar?

Is avatar stereotyping something that should be promoted? Absolutely not. But there's the unfortunate correlative reality that so many GGers also happen to sport anime avatars in their circles, so ire should be directed at them.
 

UrbanRats

Member
Guy posting on the Neo Gaming Age Forum, concerned he may come off as a nerd, due to a not dignified enough avatar.
More on this after the break!
 

RM8

Member
I wouldn't say that, MGS has had a lot of sexual content all throughout it. Quiet was just the perfect storm and ultimately ended up being a pretty poorly written character. I'd say if all the helicopter shit hadn't been in the game there would be a bit less eye-rolling.

As for cosplay, it is what it is, people can dress how they want as long as it's all legal wherever you are. I will say there is probably a tiny bit of irony in that I seriously doubt some of those who go after nudity in EVERY game rather than taking a somewhat more objective approach to adult content will probably never be running up to cosplayers and finger-pointing and/or telling them they need to tone it back... It's almost as if most of us can accept sexuality kind of goes hand-in-hand with being human! Diversity in gaming is what is healthy, so there is experiences for all types of gamers, not unity so every game is the same. Largely gaming does still have some diversity issues as there are still lots of male orientated slants on content, and we know for a fact publishers and developers still act immature about female leads.
Do we have any report of Quiet cosplayers getting any hate? That'd be pretty stupid, admittedly. I hope it hasn't happened.

But I think you miss the point. People roll their eyes at yet another pandering, naked female character because, even if you love them, it's hard to argue it's not a massively overused trope. Why is the entire medium so scared of designing female characters with any philosophy other than sexual pandering? I don't know how anyone could argue that gaming would be worse if at least some games tried something new and fresh with their characters.
 
I think you should tell that to the Gamergaters and neo-nazis with anime avatars who are drumming these things up

Yeah man, every anime avatar is a neo-nazi. Yup. Sure. Suuuuuuuuure.

Also I find it quite contradictory that some people ITT are fine with calling people gamergaters (a severe accusation by their -and mine- own interpretation of the word) and neo-nazis just because they disagree while talking about video game characters.

Yeah, the argument goes that no argument is too small to have -a statement that I agree with- so it's okay to discuss sexism over the attire of the protagonist of a niche video game
but when it comes to calling people neo-nazis somehow it's a-OK to do that over a small discussion and people who get offended at being called neo-nazis are getting ridiculed by saying "you'll live". Come on. Come the hell on.

Edit: Welp, guess I slightly misread the whole "neo-nazi anime avatar" statement, but the rest of my post still stands for the general shitposting about anime avatars that goes on in here.
 

Setsu00

Member
Yoko Taro has directed Drakengard 3, with a former prostitute who killed her sisters and stole their men as a protagonist. He's the only person I've ever seen to create such a powerful and sexually active/dominant female protagonist in a videogame with a reverse harem - its implied that sometimes the men are actually in the traditionally female role in bed when Zero tells one of her men to "clean up both front and rear."

I get the feeling the androids in Automara are specifically designed to also provide for sexual relief for humans. It would hardly be out of his zone.

The cover for Automata also turns around typical gender roles by having 2B carry 9S and not vice versa.
 
And that just isn't the worst explanation for a character sexualization EVER because Quiet exists and "breathing only for your skin" meaning to expose your entire body all the time makes zero sense
If Yoko Taro even remotely cared about people accepting his fast and loose logic, than we wouldn't have a final boss involving a woman having an eight minute musical battle against giant flower women.
 

mothball

Member
Haven't been following this 100% but the creator of a super sexualised character responding to complaints by saying "send me all the sexy fan art" is kinda not on.

As long as the people complaining will never be satisfied, it's the best response.

Yeah my bad, I shouldn't interrupt yet another Crossing Eden responds to everyone marathon. Carry on.

Almost (but not) surprised he's still at it after the "western devs use their brains" incident where he got blown the fuck out so hard he had to backpedal for pages.
 

Audioboxer

Member
Do we have any report of Quiet cosplayers getting any hate? That'd be pretty stupid, admittedly. I hope it hasn't happened.

But I think you miss the point. People roll their eyes at yet another pandering, naked female character because, even if you love them, it's hard to argue it's not a massively overused trope. Why is the entire medium so scared of designing female characters with any philosophy other than sexual pandering? I don't know how anyone could argue that gaming would be worse if at least some games tried something new and fresh with their characters.

Nah, doubt it. That's the point really, people seemingly go outside and accept we live in a sexual world and don't bother other people who enjoy sexuality themselves, either via showing it by cosplaying, or by being active in cosplay communities which have many characters dressed revealing. Like it or not Kojima was right in saying cosplayers were going to love being Quiet, many seem to. The critique is really about how he handled the character, and that she is just a pretty poorly written character overall, that's quite forgettable other than "ass shaking on helicopter". I guess it doesn't help as part of how she is written she doesn't really talk either... But again that is a design decision by Kojima, which I sum up in Quiet being the perfect storm from multiple angles to receive flack.

As for your other point, eh, there is a tipped balance one way for sure but in 2017 people need to stop pretending there isn't some diversity and viewing the current whole gaming industry through some lens of "everything is sexualised". It isn't. Look harder, read more reviews and buy different content. There's a ton of diversity. There could be a good bit more, as well as female leads getting more respect in AAA games, but objectivity would suggest barking up the tree at Nier is like going after a horror writer and telling them to start writing romance novels because you'd rather read romance. Taro does Taro and his games actually have some substance alongside any sexuality. There is easier low hanging fruit targets deserving of flak.
 

Kilau

Gold Member
Butt hole image is fake and by all means download the demo. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised how well made the game is. You can also watch the demo playthrough of countless youtubers who praise it if you don't have the console.

If all I have to look forward to is gameplay, then so be it.
 

Jiraiza

Member
Genius

tevhWrP.png

No better way to support this man than to triple dip the game when it releases.
 
But I think you miss the point. People roll their eyes at yet another pandering, naked female character because, even if you love them, it's hard to argue it's not a massively overused trope. Why is the entire medium so scared of designing female characters with any philosophy other than sexual pandering? I don't know how anyone could argue that gaming would be worse if at least some games tried something new and fresh with their characters.

The overwhelming majority of western developed games, particularly AAA developed games, do just that. So, I don't get where people are coming from where they keep pushing this idea that nothing whatsoever has changed.
 
Haven't been following this 100% but the creator of a super sexualised character responding to complaints by saying "send me all the sexy fan art" is kinda not on.

Why, really? They created a sexualized character, they know they created a sexualized character, and they're owning that. Is it unethical for people to create content based on their own sexuality now?
 

silva1991

Member
lol, indeed.

That being said, this has a good chance of being the best selling PlatinumGames game, but yeah, I doubt it sets the world on fire sales-wise.

I doubt it will sell better than MGR.

Best you can hope for is that it sells better than Gravity rush 2, because it's also in PC :p

Multiplying negatives makes a positive.

But this is case of addition.

Negative+negative = negative

:D
 

sjay1994

Member
Who exactly in this thread is doing this?

Are you sure you haven't just misread the clarification that this supposed butt "controversy" was manufactured by a Gamergater who may have just so happened to use an anime avatar?

Is avatar stereotyping something that should be promoted? Absolutely not. But there's the unfortunate correlative reality that so many GGers also happen to sport anime avatars in their circles, so ire should be directed at them.

OK, misread some information then. People in this thread aren't attacking other gaffers over their avatars.
 
Nah, doubt it. That's the point really, people seemingly go outside and accept we live in a sexual world and don't bother other people who enjoy sexuality themselves, either via showing it by cosplaying, or by being active in cosplay communities which have many characters dressed revealing. Like it or not Kojima was right in saying cosplayers were going to love being Quiet, many seem to. The critique is really about how he handled the character, and that she is just a pretty poorly written character overall, that's quite forgettable other than "ass shaking on helicopter". I guess it doesn't help as part of how she is written she doesn't really talk either... But again that is a design decision by Kojima, which I sum up in Quiet being the perfect storm from multiple angles to receive flack.

As for your other point, eh, there is a tipped balance one way for sure but in 2017 people need to stop pretending there isn't some diversity and viewing the current whole gaming industry through some lens of "everything is sexualised". It isn't. Look harder, read more reviews and buy different content.

that is the thing that always interested me, cosplayers love rocking sexy things, it's like a different universe on forums & reading things online.
 

Battlechili

Banned
I can't speak for them but having played the demo, it was indeed a terrible game.
I'm surprised someone would say this.
It has extremely fast paced and smooth action combat, thus giving the player a large amount of freedom and mobility. Her little robot that shoots bullets also has some level of usability, as it actually does some level of damage, whereas most games that have something similar make that do next to nothing in damage, including the original Nier. The game also made clever use of transitions between different genres, and it did so so smoothly that it felt natural. At no point did the transitions to being styled more like a platformer or more like a shmup ever come off as jarring or as their own thing; even in the original game, some of these elements seemed more out of place, where the visual novel sections were their own thing and the mansion "horror" section took large amounts of control away from the player without changing camera perspective very much, thus making it seem as if the game is just limiting you rather than smoothly creating that transition between genres. I don't think most games can successfully pull off these sorts of genre changes.

You mentioned Dark Souls and Bloodborne in your post, but I think those games actually suffer in terms of gameplay due to the amount they limit the player's mobility, having generally extremely slow movement (and thus taking control away from the player). I also think the games are a bit unfair; they do not give much guidance to the player on where to go, and the game also puts a lot of traps you generally can't see coming in your way, thus making the game a large bit of trial and error.
Not that I'm saying such games are bad, but just that I'm surprised you would consider Nier Automata's demo showing of it being a poor game when it improves upon the more negative aspects of other games you mentioned in your post. Nier Automata is a very fair game, in some ways reminiscent of Metal Gear Rising, but without being as easy as MGR.
 

Lime

Member
Yeah man, every anime avatar is a neo-nazi. Yup. Sure. Suuuuuuuuure.

Also I find it quite contradictory that some people ITT are fine with calling people gamergaters (a severe accusation by their -and mine- own interpretation of the word) and neo-nazis just because they disagree while talking about video game characters.

Yeah, the argument goes that no argument is too small to have -a statement that I agree with- so it's okay to discuss sexism over the attire of the protagonist of a niche video game
but when it comes to calling people neo-nazis somehow it's a-OK to do that over a small discussion and people who get offended at being called neo-nazis are getting ridiculed by saying "you'll live". Come on. Come the hell on.

Edit: Welp, guess I slightly misread the whole "neo-nazi anime avatar" statement, but the rest of my post still stands for the general shitposting about anime avatars that goes on in here.

MundaneMatt who is the originator of this whole thing is a Gamergater (aka a bigot) and some of his followers are neo-nazis.

If you're interested in the whole white supremacy and anime avatar thing check this thread instead: http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1328319&page=1
 

Taruranto

Member
Yoko Taro has directed Drakengard 3, with a former prostitute who killed her sisters and stole their men as a protagonist. He's the only person I've ever seen to create such a powerful and sexually active/dominant female protagonist in a videogame with a reverse harem - its implied that sometimes the men are actually in the traditionally female role in bed when Zero tells one of her men to "clean up both front and rear."

I get the feeling the androids in Automata are specifically designed to also provide for sexual relief for humans. It would hardly be out of his zone.


That's the part that killed me. If you understand Otaku fixation with purity it's really a powerful move. The fact that her harem is only made of men
pigeons
really just makes it better.

D3 is kinda garbage, but Zero is actually a strong character in a way that is rarely written.
 

Narroo

Member
This is amusing in a way but pretty uuh, I dunno, I guess creepy in another. I guess this destroys all hope that there was symbolism behind Kaine's design, oh well, in retrospect that was naive.

Now I'm wondering if by controversy he means the overwhelming amount of her butt-focused fanart or... Well... The one started by /that/ screenshot on Twitter.



You're absolutely right but get ready for this thread to get stupid, I'm sorry.

You're right. It is amusing that the director of a major game is basically asking for rule 34 porn of his own game to be sent to him. At the same time, it's incredibly screwed up and gross.

And people wonder why we complain about female sex appeal in games.
 

sjay1994

Member
LOL


I'm not offended but I'm tired of sexualized female warriors. So... play something else. Hmmmmm, a Japanese action-RPG without a sexzualized female warrior protagonist?


...Guess I'll play nothing but Dark Souls and Bloodborne. :p

Considering those games are inspired by western fantasy and themes, (but mostly berserk) and that they have character creators, I don't think thats fair to say they are a pinnacle of japanese non sexualized character design.
 

RM8

Member
As for your other point, eh, there is a tipped balance one way for sure but in 2017 people need to stop pretending there isn't some diversity and viewing the current whole gaming industry through some lens of "everything is sexualised". It isn't. Look harder, read more reviews and buy different content.
I'd have to quit my favourite genres if I followed your advice, lol.

The overwhelming majority of western developed games, particularly AAA developed games, do just that. So, I don't get where people are coming from where they keep pushing this idea that nothing whatsoever has changed.
There are plenty of western games with super sexualized content, but yes, there's a much better balance than with Japanese games.
 

Audioboxer

Member
that is the thing that always interested me, cosplayers love rocking sexy things, it's like a different universe on forums & reading things online.

Well we all quite politely reminded that even large online communities like GAF consist of a couple hundred thousand users top. There's millions/billions of us kicking about out there.

In general, it's because humans are a sexual species, and there is a lot of fun and empowerment to be had from feeling, looking and acting sexy. At the end of the day unless you plan to never have sex or be part of a relationship you'll end up at some point entering the mating/flirting game. Most of us don't do too great at it, lol, but hey, that's why sexual shaming is so damaging as we already have it tough enough trying to court/flirt and actually start relationships. It's awkward, uneasy and rejection sucks, but a great part of life makes sex/sexual content fun and empowering. Of course there is a darkside to sex and sexual content, and many of the worlds abuses come from people being abused and/or targetted via harassment. A lot of whom do end up being female.

The "let devs do what they want" argument is a bit tiresome though, as like every piece of content out there it gets viewed/played and feedback given. Diversity in opinion can equal diversity in content. There's just a meta-level debate that goes on of criticism/opinion of someone else's opinion :p Either way if it's all kept respectful people can have their opinions challenged and at times learn a thing or two. Same goes for devs.

I'd have to quit my favourite genres if I followed your advice, lol.


There are plenty of western games with super sexualized content, but yes, there's a much better balance than with Japanese games.

Nah man everyone should play what they want :p The games industry is incredibly large now, which is why it is worthwhile reminding many of the decision makers out there it is possible to cater to many audiences. Let us be honest as well, cross-pollination of genres is rife with big gamers. Most of us enjoy multiple types and styles of games. Therefore AAA devs and publishers acting "scared" to do a female lead is really quite pathetic in 2016/2017. It's a nuanced debate though, anyone wishing for the games industry to only cater to what they want, misses the point...
 

Dio

Banned
You're right. It is amusing that the director of a major game is basically asking for rule 34 porn of his own game to be sent to him. At the same time, it's incredibly screwed up and gross.

And people wonder why we complain about female sex appeal in games.
Unless you are implying all pornographic fanart is bad, I don't see the problem. Even then, ????
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
You mentioned Dark Souls and Bloodborne in your post, but I think those games actually suffer in terms of gameplay due to the amount they limit the player's mobility, having generally extremely slow movement (and thus taking control away from the player). I also think the games are a bit unfair; they do not give much guidance to the player on where to go, and the game also puts a lot of traps you generally can't see coming in your way, thus making the game a large bit of trial and error.
Not that I'm saying such games are bad, but just that I'm surprised you would consider Nier Automata's demo howing of it being a poor game when it improves upon the more negative aspects of other games you mentioned in your post. Nier Automata is a very fair game, in some ways reminiscent of Metal Gear Rising, but without being as easy as MGR.
I wouldn't call them unfair so much as the game expects you to be in a constant state of hyper awareness compared to other games. Many of the traps are always succinctly indicated by the sound design. They also require the player to commit to any one action compared to other games where a lot of actions can be cancelled out. Especially character action games like Metal Gear Rising. I myself am not a fan of the changing camera angles as the moveset doesn't feel very good at other angles imho, (especially that instant dodge that launches enemies in the air).
 
As long as the people complaining will never be satisfied, it's the best response.



Almost (but not) surprised he's still at it after the "western devs use their brains" incident where he got blown the fuck out so hard he had to backpedal for pages.

He's always had a western superiority complex so it's not surprising.
 
There's nothing better than anime boyz talking up how "progressive" and "empowering" these games are while the creator is asking for porn of his characters on twitter.
 

Kinyou

Member
Wait what... are you serious? What women in real life, other than in costumed parties or whatnot, are dressed like the Nier robot-woman? o_O

What female combatants IRL are ever dressed like they are shown in video games?

I mean did you seriously just use reality as an argument in favour of these designs?
We were talking about sexualised design in general. Some people simply make it sound like it's always wrong to put a sexualised character into a videogame because a fictional character has no agency.
If your character is in a sex scene, it would make sense to sexualized them. If your character is going on a date and flirting, or attending some party to infiltrate whatever and dressed sexy, then it makes sense to sexualize them. If your character is going to the beach or for a swim... I could go on.
I think the designs in Nier actually fit the context. None of the androids, male or female, are wearing combat armor (those two dudes apparently prefer shirtless) and armor wouldn't make much sense for robots anyway.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
I'm surprised someone would say this.
It has extremely fast paced and smooth action combat, thus giving the player a large amount of freedom and mobility. Her little robot that shoots bullets also has some level of usability, as it actually does some level of damage, whereas most games that have something similar make that do next to nothing in damage, including the original Nier. The game also made clever use of transitions between different genres, and it did so so smoothly that it felt natural. At no point did the transitions to being styled more like a platformer or more like a shmup ever come off as jarring or as their own thing; even in the original game, some of these elements seemed more out of place, where the visual novel sections were their own thing and the mansion "horror" section took large amounts of control away from the player without changing camera perspective very much, thus making it seem as if the game is just limiting you rather than smoothly creating that transition between genres. I don't think most games can successfully pull off these sorts of genre changes.

You mentioned Dark Souls and Bloodborne in your post, but I think those games actually suffer in terms of gameplay due to the amount they limit the player's mobility, having generally extremely slow movement (and thus taking control away from the player). I also think the games are a bit unfair; they do not give much guidance to the player on where to go, and the game also puts a lot of traps you generally can't see coming in your way, thus making the game a large bit of trial and error.
Not that I'm saying such games are bad, but just that I'm surprised you would consider Nier Automata's demo howing of it being a poor game when it improves upon the more negative aspects of other games you mentioned in your post. Nier Automata is a very fair game, in some ways reminiscent of Metal Gear Rising, but without being as easy as MGR.
I'm sorry but this post is almost hilarious in how every single sentence is literally the opposite of how I feel. xD And lol @ Bloodborne having "extremely slow movement". Ugh, not every game has to be with ridiculous ninja double flipping flying everywhere in unlimited capacity...

Considering those games are inspired by western fantasy and themes, (but mostly berserk) and that they have character creators, I don't think thats fair to say they are a pinnacle of japanese non sexualized character design.
I'm not sure why that's "unfair". In fact I'm not sure what you're saying at all. Are you saying that Japanese game creators are incapable of having non-sexualized female characters unless they a) take inspiration from western aesthetics and b) have character creators? Please clarify.

There's nothing better than anime boyz talking up how "progressive" and "empowering" these games are while the creator is asking for porn of his characters on twitter.
lol
 

Platy

Member
Nah, doubt it. That's the point really, people seemingly go outside and accept we live in a sexual world and don't bother other people who enjoy sexuality themselves, either via showing it by cosplaying, or by being active in cosplay communities which have many characters dressed revealing. Like it or not Kojima was right in saying cosplayers were going to love being Quiet, many seem to.

Hey look, someone saying that people cosplaying say something about the character design !

Time for another "People cosplaying shitty designs appreciation post"

 

ZangBa

Member
Bloodborne and NieR: Automata both have great gameplay, they are just different in style completely. NieR is way smoother, though. The dodge is dreamlike in use, too.
 
That's the party that killed me. If you understand Otaku fixation with purity it's really a powerful move. The fact that her harem is only made of men
pigeons
really just makes it better.

D3 is kinda garbage, but Zero is actually a strong character in her own in a way that is rarely written.

A common problem people have when talking about stuff like this is that they exclusively view it through the lens of modern blue-state American culture. A lot of stuff that seems like nothing special or even somewhat problematic by those standards can be very risky and progressive by the standards of the culture it comes from/audience it's targeted at.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Hey look, someone saying that people cosplaying say something about the character design !

Time for another "People cosplaying shitty designs appreciation post"
Oh my lord lol. What even is that third one?
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
There's nothing better than anime boyz talking up how "progressive" and "empowering" these games are while the creator is asking for porn of his characters on twitter.
LOL You act like there isn't porn of everything in existence to begin with. Porn isn't an inherently bad thing to begin with anyways. It's his way of saying yeah I made this character this way because I like it. Any other fans like it too show me your work! As a creator it's flattering to see fan art of your creations.
 
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