Armie Hammer was an unknown at the time, and he played the title character of Lone Ranger.
As for Depp, at this point I don't think anyone sees him as as bankable outside of a Pirates film.
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Scarlett Johansson talks sexism, sidesteps 'Ghost in the Shell' controversy
- Thread starter lightskintwin
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Armie Hammer was an unknown at the time, and he played the title character of Lone Ranger.
As for Depp, at this point I don't think anyone sees him as as bankable outside of a Pirates film.
I don't see why they didn't cast Ming-Na Wen. Easily the most bankable Asian American star, the Joy Luck Club made double its budget. I mean she's no Geena Davis, but who is.
And I totally understand not casting the actress from Crouching Tiger also. Her face looks so much similar to all the other wuxia actresses even if the movie was a big international success.
So please use some common sense. We will continue to cast Henry Cavill in Superman roles because he embodies the fragile essence of a Kryptonian.
And I totally understand not casting the actress from Crouching Tiger also. Her face looks so much similar to all the other wuxia actresses even if the movie was a big international success.
So please use some common sense. We will continue to cast Henry Cavill in Superman roles because he embodies the fragile essence of a Kryptonian.
It sounds strange, because it is strange. But that is how big movie studio executives think.
hydragonwarrior
Member
As a Chinese guy, I am still okay that she's not asian. But I may have a slight bias towards Scarjo.
Huhn, actually now that I read what I wrote, that's pretty bad.
Gotdatmoney
Member
I dont think you can throw a lesser known actor in a 200 million movie and have it do all right if the franchise isn't well known. But Ghost in the Shell isn't going to do well at that budget regardless. So I dont see the argument tbh.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
You'd still get people complaining that they didn't hire a Japanese-American actress.
Who said shit about her staying down? How will her success in this role help WoC?
She completely sidestepped the question about whitewashing and made it about white feminism.
Once again, just because she is fighting against inequality, doesn't mean she is free from criticism. I love when "allies" tell people of color to wait their turn.
According to this, the name of Johansson's character in Ghost in the Shell is "Major Mira Killian": https://www.amazon.com/dp/1683830008/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Or 225?
Didn't this movie failed spectacularly? I remember an article saying it was one of the biggest Disney blunders in history.
The point is that the argument of bankability is disproportionate and in an age of brands and franchises the concept is even less true, if it ever was.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
I wouldn't say that, but it's the result of a cycle of some racist and sexist attitudes in casting. There aren't bankable Asian female action stars because because no one gives them a chance at those roles, and they don't get a chance at those roles because they aren't stars.
BronsonLee
Member
This is really a Death Note adaptation
I think you have your timeline a bit mixed up in this case. Angelina was cast as Lara croft in 2000, right after winning best supporting actress for Girl, Interrupted I believe. Prior to that, the only film that she was in that made any sort of money was the Bone Collector, and that was a Denzel film. Gone in 60 Seconds was also in 2000, but I don't know if that released before or after the Tomb Raider casting.
I think that Alicia right now is more or less comparable to Angelina when she was cast as Lara Croft.
Your larger point about non-white women getting even less of a shot is correct of course.
Inferno313
Banned
That's not what being an unknown is, an unknown is someone like Daisy Ridley. Someone who has never acted in a major production for at all. Alicia Vikander is a VERY successful actor at the cusp of being a mainstream star. She's starred in a number of films, won an Oscar for her work, starred in a couple of mainstream blockbusters, and is a central role of one of the most popular recent cult films in Ex Machina.
The problem is that asian actresses aren't even being given the opportunities to reach that level.
I wouldn't call those idiots people.
Also, the casting of Johansson was supported by Kodansha themselves: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/scarlett-johansson-ghost-shell-japanese-885462
BronsonLee
Member
I already knew they were going too faithful on this movie when they gave that fucking dude the battery eyes
freeofgreed
Member
And? You say that like they would say anything negative about the lead of a movie about one of their properties.
Why wouldn't they support it? They are likely to get more money and sell more related material.
I also don't think that the Japanese, Chinese, or Korean entertainment industries give a shit about the plight of Asian American entertainers. Their local markets are huge. Western cash is just a side bonus in most cases.
It's an adaptation.
It's made for a mostly western audience, for America and Europe.
When Japan only get asian actors to play blonde dudes with blue eyes and "fbi" agents and whatnot, nobody bats an eye.
There is a big problem when say, they cast Jake Gylenhaal as prince of Persia.
But adapting a story for it to take place elsewhere, like Edge of Tomorrow, I don't see the problem.
I have no issue with Death Note either, since things take place in america in the movie.
The problem is when they use white leads to play non white characters in the movie.
As for GITS, she's a robot. She is whatever they want her to be.
Alright let's work this through. So let's say you're one of the producers of the new GITS movie and you need to put the film together. Now you're entering an uncertain market with anime adaptations as there hasn't been any real financially successful one. The closest is Edge of Tomorrow (and my understanding is that crawled to the break even line). So your boss at Paramount wants a high revenue generating franchise as your company's current lack of them is impacting stock prices. So you decide to adapt one of the most high profile anime franchises which not only has a base of hardcore fans but also the creators won't be as demanding as say the ones for 50 Shades of Gray.
Now you have to put this film together. So unlike many other blockbuster movies, there is no GitS cinematic universe you can rely on and that earlier base of fans is relatively small. They aren't going to get you close to that break-even line. That means you need to nail the casting and visuals, in order to sell this to the general public and to get them to go watch an anime adaptation. The visuals are somewhat simple in that you look at movies such as Blade Runner to imitate and you can call up WETA to give it that grimy effect. Audiences are also more pliable to scifi now thanks to Marvel/Lucasfilm/Avatar.
The more difficult part is the actress. The first thing you're likely to do is look up which females have led movies in the scifi genre that weren't part of some cinematic universe and see how they did. Obviously you would prefer to case an Asian for authentic purposes but you don't see any that have that sort of box office credibility. It's really important that you nail the casting because if the movie bombs, and there is a very good probability of that as you're entering a market with near zero financial successes, you need to be able to justify to your bosses every single decision you made. You know that if this project ends up losing money, you're going to be sitting at a big board meeting with a bunch of executives who are going to be deciding whether your ass is in the unemployment line the next day. At that board meeting, those executives aren't going to give a shit about diversity but rather how much money you cost them by not casting some S+ famous actress.
Now you can take a career suicide level risk and try to push some unknown Asian actress like Rinko Kikuchi who would be more authentic to the franchise or you can cast an actress with something of a track record. What do you think most people would do?
Now you have to put this film together. So unlike many other blockbuster movies, there is no GitS cinematic universe you can rely on and that earlier base of fans is relatively small. They aren't going to get you close to that break-even line. That means you need to nail the casting and visuals, in order to sell this to the general public and to get them to go watch an anime adaptation. The visuals are somewhat simple in that you look at movies such as Blade Runner to imitate and you can call up WETA to give it that grimy effect. Audiences are also more pliable to scifi now thanks to Marvel/Lucasfilm/Avatar.
The more difficult part is the actress. The first thing you're likely to do is look up which females have led movies in the scifi genre that weren't part of some cinematic universe and see how they did. Obviously you would prefer to case an Asian for authentic purposes but you don't see any that have that sort of box office credibility. It's really important that you nail the casting because if the movie bombs, and there is a very good probability of that as you're entering a market with near zero financial successes, you need to be able to justify to your bosses every single decision you made. You know that if this project ends up losing money, you're going to be sitting at a big board meeting with a bunch of executives who are going to be deciding whether your ass is in the unemployment line the next day. At that board meeting, those executives aren't going to give a shit about diversity but rather how much money you cost them by not casting some S+ famous actress.
Now you can take a career suicide level risk and try to push some unknown Asian actress like Rinko Kikuchi who would be more authentic to the franchise or you can cast an actress with something of a track record. What do you think most people would do?
People in Japan have very positive reactions as well regarding the live action Ghost in the Shell movie: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/he...ler-exceeds-japanese-fans-expectations-948696
Her success in this role, makes it more likely that studios will bank roll future action films with a female lead, which means more rolls for women in general. The failure of this film, makes it less likely that studios will take a chance on female-lead films like this. Which means no opportunities for any women. It's not about waiting your turn. It's about working together and not tearing down the women who are currently best positioned to further the cause of women's rights, in general. If we focus on criticizing those women instead of the system denying women more opportunities, it's not going to help anyone and it's giving the system a pass, when we focus on criticizing the individual.
You take it back. Dragonball Evolution introduced the world to Jamie Chung.
To be fair, Kitsch's best work before John Carter, Friday Night Lights, was pretty great. Who doesn't like Tim Riggins?
davidwhangchoi
Member
i never seen Ghost in the Shell movie, is it good? it's on my shelf unopened.
i seen a few episodes on TV a few years back. looks like a show of cops.
i seen a few episodes on TV a few years back. looks like a show of cops.
cartographer
Member
Pretty much agree with this:
and this:
You can say this isn't as bad as 21, or Aloha or whatever. All three minimize Asians in Western cinema and deny Asian workers opportunities while providing them to white actors instead.
If the movie wouldn't have been made without Johansson, then don't make the movie. Adapt something else. In fact, if the movie wouldn't have even been made without her, that's even more of a reason to not do it. She has the power to stop a very specific example of racism.
Yeah, it's horribly sexist that an actress like Johansson probably doesn't have these sorts of roles come around as often as they should while Hollywood is trying to make the latest vanilla Scott Eastwood / Charlie Hunnam / Jai Courtney a thing. That doesn't change any of the above.
and this:
You can say this isn't as bad as 21, or Aloha or whatever. All three minimize Asians in Western cinema and deny Asian workers opportunities while providing them to white actors instead.
If the movie wouldn't have been made without Johansson, then don't make the movie. Adapt something else. In fact, if the movie wouldn't have even been made without her, that's even more of a reason to not do it. She has the power to stop a very specific example of racism.
Yeah, it's horribly sexist that an actress like Johansson probably doesn't have these sorts of roles come around as often as they should while Hollywood is trying to make the latest vanilla Scott Eastwood / Charlie Hunnam / Jai Courtney a thing. That doesn't change any of the above.
Shirow is probably more interested if ScarJo gets naked for the role.
4 is a cutie
Banned
If they were to be true to source material I'd rather have them cast an actual Japanese person instead of "Asian person who I can think off of the top of my head"
Anyways Scarlett herself has nothing to do with this film's casting process so im more focused on the higher ups. I think GitS and Death Note sidesteps the issue by having diverse casting but I dont studios can get away with it as we begin to see more anime/manga Hollywood films in the future
Anyways Scarlett herself has nothing to do with this film's casting process so im more focused on the higher ups. I think GitS and Death Note sidesteps the issue by having diverse casting but I dont studios can get away with it as we begin to see more anime/manga Hollywood films in the future
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
If this is where Hollywood is at as to why Asian women and other minorities can't catch a break then it's the problem of the industry as a whole.
lightskintwin
Banned
Why are you creating strawman arguments?
I don't think anybody should be mad or upset at Scarlett Johansson or any other White woman accepting the role.
Instead of blindly defending White women, could you perhaps address Scarlett's answer when asked about the controversy which she used to prop up women as a whole instead of dealing with the specifics of Asian American actors in Hollywood?
I looked and you're right, and it shows how it was Tomb Raider that established Angelina as a leading Hollywood actress which is a very similar to the formula with Alicia Vikander.
I'm not arguing success, obviously, she's not unknown in the technical sense, but she is unknown in the mainstream film sense as a major actor and the public at large. Tomb Raider is the type of film to make her a box office and bankable star on the worldwide stage that changes her trajectory where people will come to watch a film specifically because she's cast in it.
Inferno313
Banned
That's kind of what happens, but I think with Ghost In The Shell's specific case it was set up at Dreamworks. Which is a film studio, but NOT a distribution company. When you're developing a film outside of a distributor, you need to make it as attractive a business proposition as possible, so that you can actually get a good distributor to sign on. With Ghost in the Shell, Dreamworks was in limbo, as Disney had just declined to withdraw their contract. They were searching for a distributor to take on the film, and put up the money. The Ghost in the Shell brand isn't strong enough that a studio would be willing to upfront the money that would be necessary to create the effects work needed for the setting, so a big name star is often the next best hope in terms of actually getting the money needed.
No, her success with this film will continue the belief that only white women are bankable as leads. Her success only helps her and other white women, especially considering she ignored and pushed aside a very real issue to promote white feminism.
Once again, who is tearing her down? You seem to think white women should not be criticized for stepping over WoC for their own success which is not a very feminist thing to do.
If the white women aren't willing to fight for WoC then shit won't change. This is more of the "wait your turn" bullshit. You are more worried about the feelings of white women than you are real issues that affect WoC.
PaulBizkit
Member
The thing is... if you only have 1 main character in the movie, and the movie is about said character's journey... you need a big name. Scarlett Johansson will draw a lot more people than any other asian actress.
Is it white washing? maybe, but then again, anime characters don't look asian most of the time either...
Is it white washing? maybe, but then again, anime characters don't look asian most of the time either...
Isn't that the purpose of this thread? To criticize Scarlett Johannson and try to de-legitimize her struggle for equality, in the process? Also, you answered your own question. She's using the role to prop up women in whole, because that's all she can personally do as a white woman. The alternative is that she not do anything at all and not seek any equality.
lightskintwin
Banned
We're criticizing the individual's answer to a question and not the individual as you defensively think this is an us vs them.
Wow, it's amazing how you can't even see it.
This movie is what made the series famous (it's good): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghost_in_the_Shell_(1995_film)
In particular, the opening and ending of the movie are fairly famous (the opening for its visuals, the ending for its discussion of life).
The rest of the series is pretty average at best.
The is an irony in how Asian American actors have a better chance of building a career if they venture out to make movies in Hong Kong, then when they have a portfolio of starring roles, they might make it back in the US. You can see it in like Daniel Wu, Maggie Q and to an extent Donnie Yen and even Bruce Lee.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Are WoC not victims of sexism and the patriarchy?
ScarJo sidestepping the question was obviously bad, but the idea that combating sexism only benefits white women is ridiculous.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
So if the Chinese audience reacted positive to a white actress playing Mulan would that be cool to you?
Yeah, absolutely nothing wrong with that response. Fuck that "sidesteps" shade. She took the job of the film she wanted to do or was paid to do it. It's not her responsibility, she wanted to do the film and if she did feel like she was doing something wrong, it wouldn't have changed the producer's mind - they would've picked the next person who they felt appropriate who was just as likely to white. Blame the producers/casters if you need someone to blame.
lightskintwin
Banned
I don't think GITS is a good example of Whitewashing, but I do think it's symptomatic of a large issue that affects Asian American actors at large.
I screwed up, I thought it was WB for some reason. However the point still stands for people at Dreamworks who are banking on this and the ones at Paramount who signed off.
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