Barsinister
Banned
Adam's apple.
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Scarlett Johansson Drops Out of Trans Role Amid Backlash
- Thread starter TheShadowLord
- Start date
Adam's apple.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Due to their low representation it'd be best if an actual Trans person played the role yes! Once things start to normalize, then Cis people should be okay to play Trans roles. It's only fair.
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Tumle
Member
The same reason I’m not attracted to Asian woman or woman with more masculine features.. preference in looks
cryptoadam
Banned
Dude I think I remember that thread. You were getting dogpiled. Someone whos' name has KK in it ? She kept saying every guy secretly wants to bang transpeople and then she got upset and started ranting about how you don't decide who wants to sleep with her or not or something like that?
cryptoadam
Banned
What about if there was a flash back scene? Would a cis man be in those scenes or could ScarJo play the flash back character?
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
This is a really silly question. Are you attracted to someone who weighs 300 pounds? What if they have more masculine features? More feminine? Androgynous? What if they are flat chested or the opposite? Not everyone is attracted to the same body type or have preferences in physical features. Some are more attracted to asians, some more attracted to hispanics, some are attracted to larger body times, or more physically built.
You stated how it "doesn't make any sense" in a previous post. Why does that not make sense?
InterMusketeer
Member
I can't accept that explanation, as all trans women look different. Like I said before, some pass easily for a woman, some don't. Transgenders don't have a 'look.'
I don't think it's a silly question at all. I'm not attracted to fat people because of their physical appearance. Trans people as a group don't have a common physical appearance. The only thing they share is common is being trans, like I said before.
As such, if you're not attracted to trans people because they're trans, the true reason you don't feel attraction to them is because you don't truly consider them their prefered gender. I've yet to see anyone bring up any other valid reason for not being attracted to trans people. I asked about that in my first post in this thread.
To reiterate: I don't think there's anything wrong with not feeling attracted towards transgenders. I can't picture myself in a relationship with one either, I just want people to be honest about why they're not attracted to them.
Tumle
Member
I haven’t met a trans person that I’m attracted too, yet let me put it that way instead then..
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Mate, people are being honest. It just isn't what you want to hear.
Airola
Member
I'm sure there are trans women who can look really attractive. I'm sure some men can be the same with a good make-up and clothing.
But where is the line? If one can feel attracted to them, should they also feel attracted to those trans people who don't yet look like women at all or only slightly?
Besides, I think the issue is in knowing about the trans thing. Even if a man in make-up would look attractive I think it's ok to lose interest and attraction when it's revealed she is a he. The same goes with trans women too. There are certain expectations when a man dates a woman. Most people who date others expect to have a romantical and sexual relationship with each other, and I would say most will think about possible future children too. For the most of the history of humans a penis and a vagina have been the one things that are obvious. A man who dates a woman automatically assumes the woman has a vagina and a woman who dates a man automatically assumes the man has a penis. It used to be so obvious no-one really even thinked about it twice. When that isn't the case anymore and the other from the dating couple doesn't know that, it would not be a surprise if they lost interest when it would be clear that the sexual relationship would be completely different and that there would be no children to be had.
How about those trans people who have changed their penis into a fully working vagina and vice versa, then? At least the sexual relationship could happen in a "normal" expected way even if they could not be able to have children (maybe they don't even want to have children), although there is still the problem of them constantly having to take pills and maintain that transition, but let's assume even that isn't a problem in any way. Even then there can be a problem with knowing the history of the trans person. Personally I would like to know as much as possible about their childhood. Knowing the woman used to be a little boy or the man used to be a little girl could very well break the "illusion" so to speak and they could genuinely lose the attraction. I don't think it would be fair to call them bigoted or anything like that even in those situations.
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cryptoadam
Banned
I just don't like fake. I am not attracted to breast implants or butt implants. I don't find girls with fake boobs attractive at all and its actually a turn off.
InterMusketeer
Member
That's different from what you said before, but that's fine. Fair enough.
What exactly do you think I want to hear?
What I've been trying to argue (and I think people got this wrong) is not how you should feel about transgenders, but why you feel the way you do about them.
I don't think anyone should be forced to feel attracted to anyone for whatever reason. I'm just interested in finding out why they feel that way.
In my first post in this thread, I asked how it is possible to fully accept a transgender as their prefered gender, while at the same time making the sweeping statement: "I won't date transgenders." If these people fully accept them as, let's say a woman, why won't they date them? Transgender women are real women, right? They fully accepted them as their new gender, and they happen to be attracted to women too, so what's up with not wanting to date them then? Let's say there exists a transgender person somewhere out there, who fits the description of your perfect girl, she has the right personality and assets, she's beautiful, but she's trans. Would you date her?
Personally I wouldn't, because I want a relationship with a real woman, and that's not what a transgender woman is to me. And that's the honesty I'm looking for in this thread.
I think some people are pretending they fully accept a transgender person's prefered gender, but then show they don't see them as actual women after all. I find that hypocritical.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
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InterMusketeer
Member
That is my position, yes. I can't think of any other reason one wouldn't date transgenders without them being trans having something to do with it. I've asked for input from others, and haven't gotten any.
<+)O Robido O(+>
Member
Is ScarJo really a ticket seller? I wouldn't have thought so.
cryptoadam
Banned
Because you can't differentiate between SEX and GENDER.
I accept someones gender as Women or Man, but doesn't mean I will be sexually attracted to someone of a different SEX.
And not being sexually attracted to someone doesn't mean you don't accept and respect their gender choices, nor does it make you transphobic.
Your essentially saying that a persons gender is strictly decided by sexual attraction. That a women is only defined by how attracted a man is to her(or vice versa). I think we can say someones gender isn't exclusivly tied to who wants to have sex with them. I think gender has more to it then just bumping uglies.
InterMusketeer
Member
Transgenders want their sex to be changed to fit their gender. That's the entire point of transitioning, right?
If transgenders just wanted to change their gender, they wouldn't have gender dysphoria and they wouldn't feel the need to transition. Their biological sex plays a vital part in being transgender. Transgenders don't want just their gender to be accepted, they want to be seen as someone of a different sex as well. So your argument doesn't make much sense to me.
5secondrulesucks
Banned
yeah i always find it odd peoples argument is the difference between gender and sex but not only are they tied so closely but the transition part is to manipulate your sex.
Shai-Tan
Banned
What any category of people want is to be respected as a person. Not that everyone should be attracted to them (in the same way not everyone would be expected to be attrracted to you). The more subtle argument is that as the stigma is reduced enough for trans people to be accepted in wider society, more people will be open to a relationship with a trans person, not that they will be thought of as identical to a biological male/female, which is a right wing talking point using a straw man from some more out there fringes of aspirational trans activism. I probably shouldn't contribute to a discussion veering so off topic.
cryptoadam
Banned
Well not every transgender want their gender changed, and not every transgender goes through gender surgery. But I think the argument is confusing me because I have seen it argued both ways, that a women isn't only defined by her vagina(or vice a versa). So again confusing because on one hand its not all about the vagina and penis but OTOH it is.
Is a transgender women who doesn't have surgery and keeps their male appendages less of a women because they didn't transition? are they not transgender enough? I think if I asked someone who was transgender they would call me transphobic for suggesting that. I would definitely get a warning and or ban on ERA. So is gender based on penis and vagina or its not?
And it seems like you are boiling it all down to sex and attraction and that the only way someone can be seen as a women (or man) is if someone from the opposite sex is attracted to them. Regardless if I will date/have sex with a transgender person it should have no bearing on them being recognized and afforeded the rights of the gender they chose. Sexual preferences should not be the only way we define gender and it seems very regressive to suggest that.
BANGS
Banned
Not at all, they are equally not a woman whether they mutilate their body or not...
Airola
Member
I get what you mean. I think there is a problem in that it's not enough to call trans women just trans women. Others want them to be called women. Others want them to be called men. In reality, however, it seems to be more fitting to call them trans women instead of women or men. I mean, it's not as if their sex at birth was female and it's not as if a transitioned trans woman has male genitals and is fully a male either. I mean, while I would understand men who don't want to date trans women even though some would claim they are fully women, I would also understand women who wouldn't want to date trans women even though some would claim they are fully men. I mean, by the logic of people who want to call trans women men, they should be advocating for heterosexual women to date trans women because they are really men, but I'm sure most of them aren't ready to say that either.
Maybe this wouldn't be that kind of a hypocritical issue if they were called "trans women" and "trans men" and everyone would be ok with it.
What comes to your question of meeting the dream woman who would be trans and if I would date her/him/it/zer/whatever, I would say that looking from outside, no I wouldn't. This person wouldn't be able to have children. Not that it would be a necessary thing or that I would assume we would eventually have children or that I wouldn't accept if they wouldn't want to have children. It's just that I kinda hope there still exists a chance for that to happen. I know there are women who can't have children but even then there theoretically is a possibility for a miracle. But with trans women the possibility is not even 0,0001% but it's 0,0000%.
And even with women who now think they don't ever want to have children might change their mind. It's not as if that ability is gone forever. Personally if I start a relationship with someone, I'm aiming to have a life-long relationship. I'm not going for short term relationships just for a year or two. I'm looking for a life long companionship. And for me it would be quite a tough thing to do if I would immediately know that even a miracle wouldn't make my loved one be able to have children.
Another issue would also be that while I know this trans woman, even though she'd be exactly what I would dream about, wouldn't be that without constant medical treatment. She would end up look and sound more like a man eventually if she'd stop taking the pills - and I'm maybe a bit afraid to know what would happen to the genital area too.
Men who have the perfect personality for me will be my friends - not my lovers or romantic partners. While pills could keep the illusion up for me, I would certainly lose interest if she'd somehow change to be more like a man.
Back to the original issue, I don't think it's that simple that people aren't just willing to admit they are not real women. Everyone has their own definition of what a "real woman" is. Some even think some women who have been born as girls and still identify as a woman might not be a "real woman" if she doesn't have some certain character traits. Some think only fat women are "real women" and some think only athletic women are "real women" and some think every woman is a "real woman" and some think all it needs is a person to just think she is a woman.
I probably wouldn't date a trans woman. Not because she isn't a woman or not because she is a man, but because she is a trans woman.
Now, that said, who knows what I would do if a situation like that would happen. Maybe I'd be extremely horny for her or maybe her eyes would be so lovely or maybe she'd say the exactly correct things to me to be able to make me fall for her. Who knows. But in the state I am now I would say I wouldn't date a trans woman.
Calling for people to "tell it like it is", to say they are not real women to them and that's why they don't want to date them, is you wanting people to say a more complex thing in the most inflammatory manner. I bet that trans women would rather like to hear what exact things about them are the reasons they might not be attractive instead of just blurting out "you're not a real woman." I mean, isn't it better to hear a woman tell you she don't like you because she likes stronger men who are less childish and who take more responsibility than to just say "you are not a real man" even if technically it would be correct from her point of view?
I mean, men not wanting to date other men is not that simple thing either. It's not just about them not being women, but it's also about them having male things that just don't interest or attract them at all. If someone would ask why you don't date other men where would the discussion be if all that was said was "they're not women"?
Airola
Member
As long as some film companies use people like Frank Stallone, Mike Norris and any other Baldwin than Alec to try to sell tickets and it works, I think ScarJo will be desirable person to get in a movie
InterMusketeer
Member
I'm no expert either. I was under the impression that one needs to have gender dysphoria in order to be diagnosed as transgender. Gender dysphoria definitely has to do with penises and vaginas, not just gender identity.
That was not my intent. I'm not claiming you can't be a real woman if no one feels attracted to you. Again, I'm asking people who personally claim to accept a transgender's (or maybe transsexual is the accurate term to use in this instance) prefered gender, but then don't consider dating them, how those two positions can be combined, because I just don't see it.
Would it be better if I said: "I won't date you because you have/had a penis" ? Or should I word it differently: "I won't date you because of your biological sex." Isn't that the exact same thing as saying "I don't consider you a real woman" ?
cryptoadam
Banned
I am going to assume that we are both cis gendered? Maybe some of these questions we are asking and debating are things neither of us are equipped to answer.
My main point is that someones gender isn't only defined by sexual attraction, and someone not wanting to date/sleep with someone who is transgender doesn't make their gender choice any less nor does it mean their gender choice should be less respected or afforded less rights.
I am a heterosexual male so I want to date cis gender females who were born with and have female sexual organs. I can still respect a transgender womens gender and respect the rights she wants and respect any cis gender male who does sleep/date them. I don't think there is a conflict and sexual attraction and gender aren't mutually exclusive.
But thats my POV. I don't know if that would fly or not. But to me Gender does not equal sexual attraction and they should be separated.
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S
SLoWMoTIoN
Unconfirmed Member
"redirected to proper thread"
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InterMusketeer
Member
To me, gender and sex are connected and so sexual attraction has something to do with it as well. I don't think they can be separated. But you're probably right that we don't know enough about the subject to come to any real conclusion here.
Yes, I should really stop this offtopic discussion. My bad. Just wanted to clear up my position before I get banned or something.
On topic: I think a movie is better than no movie at all, but on the other hand I understand that transgender folks would like to see actual transgender actors in movies as well, because as someone mentioned before, it doesn't happen often that transgenders get to play cis roles either. It's a tricky situation, but I think Johansson shouldn't have dropped out.
5secondrulesucks
Banned
i cant get past the whole trans thing. i think most people just dont want to say that. maybe it makes me a dickhead for saying it. and even lets say i just said fuck it lets give it a shot there will always be something in the back of my mind thats like naaah. i dont think there is anything wrong with saying what the truth is for me and i dont think its wrong either just in general. im not shitting on anyone or trying to put people down i just think people should be more honest
The Skull
Member
Same. To me, they are still a biological male and that isn't something I'm attracted to.
TheShadowLord
Member
well, ghost in the shell made $169 million world wide on its $110 million budget.
cryptoadam
Banned
Its complicated and since I am not trans I don't think I can really in the end make the correct argument. It would in a way be like me arguing how black people should feel when I am not black.
Whats important is that Trans people are respected and treated fairly and with dignity. What happens in peoples bedrooms should be a private matter and up to them.
<+)O Robido O(+>
Member
Wow. I've only ever seen her in the Marvel movies and Lucy (because of Luc Besson) she's fairly mediocre in both.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
It's actually not hypocritical at all. Accepting someone's gender identity doesn't mean that you have to find them or other trans women attractive or want to have sex with them.
brap
Banned
Not all transgirls have implants.
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cryptoadam
Banned
which swings the other way because I like boobs. and not fat man boobs real boobs.
So having no boobs or fake boobs would turn me off.
brap
Banned
Man tits and hormone tits look different but I get what you mean.
Airola
Member
At least the penis argument is something that would be 100% true even in the trans person's mind. They wholeheartedly believe they are women. So if you go and say you are not a real woman, it would go against their personal beliefs. Even if we wouldn't believe a male could become a female and vice versa, we can still be nice about it.
They can never understand why someone would have "not a real woman" as a reason because they feel they are real women. But saying I won't date you because you have or had a penis at least can be understood by that person and there aren't real arguments against it. For "not a woman" she could say "wtf, yes I am" but for "I don't date people who have or have had a penis and that's why I won't date you" there isn't anything to say against unless she suddenly goes crazy and starts to argue that penis is not a penis or that the penis she had wasn't a penis.
Sure, they could say you are stupid or bigoted or whatever, but it's your personal preference and it's no-one's business what you require from people you want to date. It really shouldn't be an odd thing if a person has a preference to date and plan future only with people who were born with the opposite genitals. That's the default position for most people and the way they are from cradle to grave. You can't be blamed for being born with the desires of majority. It's not your fault your dna made you be like most others. If that's an issue to someone, then that person has issues with humans and humanity in general.
Airola
Member
Yeah, I think he meant something like comparing hormone based tits to hormone based muscles. Even though the muscles gained through taking a ton of hormones are technically natural, it's still understandable if someone doesn't feel they are "real" or has a distaste for them. In the same way one could think tits grown by taking hormones aren't real - at least when compared to completely naturally grown ones without any additional substances.
lifa-cobex
Member
Relevant...
Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson Shamed by Paralympian for Playing Amputee in 'Skyscraper'
http://comicbook.com/movies/2018/07...alympian-playing-amputee-skyscraper-the-rock/
Surprised no one has kicked off at Tom Hanks for playing someone with aids.
I wonder if these ppl who complain about not being represented in media realise that they Won't be represented in media in the future if this carry's on.
Film corps just want to make money. If they have to deal with negative press like this. Then they will just keep a wide berth and not have it even become an issue.
Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson Shamed by Paralympian for Playing Amputee in 'Skyscraper'
http://comicbook.com/movies/2018/07...alympian-playing-amputee-skyscraper-the-rock/
Surprised no one has kicked off at Tom Hanks for playing someone with aids.
I wonder if these ppl who complain about not being represented in media realise that they Won't be represented in media in the future if this carry's on.
Film corps just want to make money. If they have to deal with negative press like this. Then they will just keep a wide berth and not have it even become an issue.
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cryptoadam
Banned
5secondrulesucks
Banned
see this is what happens when you leave shit like this unchecked and when you cant just call people out for being morons because of their feelings. everyone wants to be marginalized
Barsinister
Banned
I have a hard time understanding this. I want to be a better person. On a personal level, if you come to me with anything, I will be as understanding as I can be. I will help you, support you, and not think too bad of you. But when I see things like this:
When she is wearing her horse getup, am I supposed to treat her as if she is a horse? Am I hateful if I think she has a screw loose? Is it inevitable that I will have to accept this too? Not just tolerate it, mind, but accept it as if it was normal?
When she is wearing her horse getup, am I supposed to treat her as if she is a horse? Am I hateful if I think she has a screw loose? Is it inevitable that I will have to accept this too? Not just tolerate it, mind, but accept it as if it was normal?
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LordPezix
Member
You don't like me having Scar Jo as a character on my film?
FUCK OFF AND MAKE YOUR OWN DAMN MOVIE WITH YOUR OWN FUCKING SHIT!
THIS IS GODDAMN ART YOU TYRANNICAL HYPOCRITICAL BULLY CRY BABIES, ART IS THE PUREST FORM OF FREEDOM. YOU HAVE ZERO, ABSOLUTELY FUCKING ZERO AUTHORITY ON WHAT I DECIDE TO DO WITH MY ART.
FUCK OFF AND MAKE YOUR OWN DAMN MOVIE WITH YOUR OWN FUCKING SHIT!
THIS IS GODDAMN ART YOU TYRANNICAL HYPOCRITICAL BULLY CRY BABIES, ART IS THE PUREST FORM OF FREEDOM. YOU HAVE ZERO, ABSOLUTELY FUCKING ZERO AUTHORITY ON WHAT I DECIDE TO DO WITH MY ART.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
This one post by this person will NEVER stop a real amputee from getting roles in the future. It doesn't work that way.
5secondrulesucks
Banned
brap
Banned
You're supposed to respect everybody no matter what. Except if they don't have far left beliefs!
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Barsinister
Banned
Thank you! I guess I will learn to respect it. Maybe if we don't make eye contact, she won't be able to tell the difference.
Barsinister
Banned
I am. And I will clarify myself so you know why. I have seen this girl here. I have see people who believe that they should be blind. I have seen people who believe that they should be missing an arm or a leg. I believe that most of us here will look at the examples I mentioned and we will think that they may not be alright in their heads.
You can, if you wish, show me studies that you have stating this or the other and maybe they are true. That does not mean I cannot see a correlation between a Trans, as you put it, and the examples I mentioned. I know in my head that correlation and causation are two different things.
I am, like most people, more likely to group things that seem similar together. I look at a mess of things, and I want to organize them. Tell me, and I am being as sincere as I possibly can be, how to differentiate between Trans and the Horse girl up there. Don't pull up a graph or send me to some website that I won't understand. I am asking you to do it. Kindly and with respect. If you can, keep your words simple so I can understand.
I don't think of myself as a hateful man. I try to be humble and learn new things. Please, help me?
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