I think you have demonstrated why MS will have a huge messaging problem with LH later if they choose to launch it.
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Rumor : Xbox Lockhart Reveal soon: 4Tf, Limited next gen features
- Thread starter Agnostic2020
- Start date
prinz_valium
Member
That's the point. You refuse to believe something that is true.
No one can help you in this case. But it also does not matter what you believe or not. It does not change reality.
Nothing to message
It's obvious they are going to kill the One X. Wasn't there reports that it's already going to be discontinued and stocks running low after Cyberpunk limited edition model.
The marketing is quite simple
Here is our next generation consoles
Series X supports 4K and RT and comes with 1TB
Series S supports Full HD and comes with 500TB
The latest Xbox Series consoles have the most advanced graphics, bigger world's, better AI, bigger scope, better animation, better lighting, better effects and etc. Series systems also have a host of new features like instant loading and switching between multiple games and continuing where you left off.
If a consumer goes to buy a Xbox they can either buy a Series X, Series S, or a One S.
DaGwaphics
Member
I wonder if we can get that drive in the XSX version? Joke, I know it's a typo, but couldn't help myself.
Jayjayhd34
Member
That won't be the problem majority of consumers have no understanding or interest in tf or performance.
The switch and ps4 has proofen that gamers buy systems where they feel they will get best games.
The biggest problem here will be if by some miracle MS finally start making good games that can sell good amount system where they feel like they show system sales. The XBX will simply will not sell it will destroyed by the Xss sales so really can't see why they went all out for xsx for it to butchered by there own console.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
I guess I don't understand why in your mind one has to be the focus? Gaming in general is not about the console anymore. The console is the vessel to get you into their eco system. The focus is getting you to buy one of them and we have an entry level and a premium. Wither its Lockhart or Series X. The advertisements should not focus on the consoles anyway. The focus needs to be on the content to make you want to buy the box which what most of gaming marketing is. Flashy ad for a game with a 3 second.."Play on XXXX" at the end.
And you keep saying it will cause confusion buy you haven't given any real argument other then extremely rare case scenarios that could be said about a McDonalds menu having a McChicken and a Southern Style Chicken sandwich.
sendit
Member
Agreed. However, no one is arguing against this. The argument presented here is will a 4TF console sharing the same eco system hold back developers from fully unleashing 12 Teraflops of sustained compute? I hope not as I am excited to see what Crackdown 4 will look like at 12 TF.
Multiple people have already stated it will not as 4TF console is targeting 1080p. If the 4TF was also targeting 4K then it would hold back the generation. Digital Foundry did a good video on this. There are loads of PC cards that run current gen games at lower resolution and less powerful graphics card. It's basically the same concept.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
The conversation I am having the user is definitely arguing this,
Jayjayhd34
Member
This is a hard question answer no one other than developer can answer this with certainty.
However what we can do is look at Pro and X and they show that developers will most of time focus on platform that will yeid biggest sales.
Say a third party developer is in situation where they need more time to perfect an xsx game, however that time will cost them more money than sales will yield that's not going happen, no developer is going risk loosing money.
Games scale amazily well across diffrent hardware. The major problem I see is time if you spend all resources focusing on one platform I feel your going get better results, this is mainly why we see such massive difference in third party games and first party games.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Hmmmm.....that's a great point actually. Yeah, I can see MS going with this approach. It matches up with their "Play Anywhere" strategy. Hardware doesn't really matter, getting Gamepass Ultimate and buying games is the goal for them.
This will be totally different from Sony approach, which makes next-gen very interesting to watch. I'm excited.
My bet is that it will hold their 1st party games back. But if I'm wrong, that's better for us gamers.
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Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
I expect Game Pass to get the biggest push of anything. The ability to walk into a store and pick up a console and then only pay $10 to play Halo Day 1 along with most likely a Forza game and complete backwards compat with X1 stuff is huge.
ZywyPL
Banned
Or there are simply hundreds of millions of people with fully functional 5/7/10/12/15yo FullHD TVs who don't see a single reason to get rid of them.
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
But wouldn't PC's already be holding back their 1st party games? Since they launch on there anyway, so if it's Lockhart or a lower spec PC, they were planning on taking them into account anyway already.
Quartermaster
Member
So basically every game will have to be design around a base model and not exclusively for XSX.
Ellery
Member
The approach makes sense. Microsoft wants to have as many gamers as possible with active subscriptions to their services and make money from digital fees.
They are doing that by having Xbox One, Xbox One S, Xbox One X, Xbox Series S, Xbox Series X and PC. The difference between those devices is gigantic and even after phasing to Xbox Series X + Xbox Series S + PC the hardware differences are still big. Lower end PCs will still be able to run the games (without RayTracing or AMD hardware). The Series S is going to be able to run all games. The flagship Xbox Series X is going to have to run the same games with higher resolution or other graphical settings.
Whether or not that will impact games negatively compared to the single console strategy that Playstation is doing is hard to say and we will have to wait probably until 2023 to make a final judgement. One thing is for sure. Having games that scale across different hardware doesn't make it easier for developers to realize their vision. It can be done, but requires a lot of work hours and manual handling.
I don't like the holding back discussion, because people take strong opinions on either side and while some arguments (from both sides) make sense the reality is much more nuanced. There will always be some sort of baseline developers are going for, but it doesn't mean that if developers are creating a game for both the 4TF Series S and the 12TF Series X that the game would look 3x as good if it was a Series X exclusive game. The Series X games will run at a higher resolution with better framerate/frametimes and have graphical settings increased and much better RayTracing (if the Series S comes with it).
Maybe the games would look better in a parallel universe where Microsoft developers solely for the Xbox Series X hardware, but the differences wouldn't be that gigantic.
They are doing that by having Xbox One, Xbox One S, Xbox One X, Xbox Series S, Xbox Series X and PC. The difference between those devices is gigantic and even after phasing to Xbox Series X + Xbox Series S + PC the hardware differences are still big. Lower end PCs will still be able to run the games (without RayTracing or AMD hardware). The Series S is going to be able to run all games. The flagship Xbox Series X is going to have to run the same games with higher resolution or other graphical settings.
Whether or not that will impact games negatively compared to the single console strategy that Playstation is doing is hard to say and we will have to wait probably until 2023 to make a final judgement. One thing is for sure. Having games that scale across different hardware doesn't make it easier for developers to realize their vision. It can be done, but requires a lot of work hours and manual handling.
I don't like the holding back discussion, because people take strong opinions on either side and while some arguments (from both sides) make sense the reality is much more nuanced. There will always be some sort of baseline developers are going for, but it doesn't mean that if developers are creating a game for both the 4TF Series S and the 12TF Series X that the game would look 3x as good if it was a Series X exclusive game. The Series X games will run at a higher resolution with better framerate/frametimes and have graphical settings increased and much better RayTracing (if the Series S comes with it).
Maybe the games would look better in a parallel universe where Microsoft developers solely for the Xbox Series X hardware, but the differences wouldn't be that gigantic.
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
They were already doing this with the PC...
ScarletSpider
Banned
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Kokoloko85
Member
Are they gonna reveal the price of both X and S series I wonder? There gonna need to
Agnostic2020
Member
Wtf. Why the fuck u r making baseless assumptions one after another probably based on bullshit dealer , a know xbox fanboy, puts out ? Ps5 is 10.3 tf get over it and go spread fake fud and make assumptions elsewhere .
U could say sony got ms by surprise since they were expecting ps5 to be 8 tf yet soby did 10.3 tf. high clock gpu has its own benefits .
Once VS videos come out and they r identical, u guys are sameones who are gonna say sony paid to keep parity
. Predicting u guys is so easy.
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Craig of War
Banned
A 500TB Series S so you never run out of storage a game changer lol
a) it's 10.28 TF and not 10.30
b) Do yo know what "variable" means?
c) If it's 100% 10.3 tf, then why do they even use variable? Why can't they keep it sustained like any other console out there? lol
Agnostic2020
Member
a) it's 10.28 TF and not 10.30
b) Do yo know what "variable" means?
c) If it's 100% 10.3 tf, then why do they even use variable? Why can't they keep it sustained like any other console out there? lol
Haha sorry 10.28
based on cerny :
Variable by 2% to reduce power draw by 10% . Meaning at worst its 10.1 Tf and thays rarely.
And that 9tf bs is based on xbox fanboys and not reality sorry .(dealer ,Brad sams and windows central all xbox fanboys )
ZywyPL
Banned
Man, going through some of the posts here, one would believe that PCs are bending the reality and physics by being able to run the exact same games but with different settings and different resolutions...
Just look at PS4 - if sub-2TF GCN TF console can produce games like UC4, HZD, GoW, DS, GOT, TLoU2, then imagine how capable will be a machine with 4x more powerful CPU, 4x more powerful GPU + VRS, RT, Mesh Shading etc., and ulta fast SSD. Funny how when the Pro and 1X were introduced many folks here were mad that the consoles will "waste" their resources for a "gimmick" a.k.a. 4K, and would prefer the consoles to use those resources for better visuals at 1080p, but when now Lockhart is about to give exactly that, now it's suddenly a bad idea, and hill hold back entire generation... Make up you mind, for real.
The "logic" some of you guys here provide that XBX on its own will be able to push 30M polygons at 4K, but it MS indeed releases Lockhard, then XBX will all of a sudden be able to push only 20M... The situation is similar with what we saw with PS4/Pro and XB1/X1X, except in reverse - Pro and 1X were designed to scale up already existing games, whereas Lockhart is designed to scale the games down. Actually, in the past few years games were basically made with X1X in mind, with XB1 getting leftovers/rip-offs, so that should also be the case with next-gen consoles as well. Just comparing the TF jump - 1.3vs4, and 6vs12, it's clear where the biggest jump would actually be.
I'll repeat once again - the idea is there, we get it (some don't), but it will all come down to execution, MS has 50% chance to either be spot-on with Lockhart specs or screw it up.
Just look at PS4 - if sub-2TF GCN TF console can produce games like UC4, HZD, GoW, DS, GOT, TLoU2, then imagine how capable will be a machine with 4x more powerful CPU, 4x more powerful GPU + VRS, RT, Mesh Shading etc., and ulta fast SSD. Funny how when the Pro and 1X were introduced many folks here were mad that the consoles will "waste" their resources for a "gimmick" a.k.a. 4K, and would prefer the consoles to use those resources for better visuals at 1080p, but when now Lockhart is about to give exactly that, now it's suddenly a bad idea, and hill hold back entire generation... Make up you mind, for real.
The "logic" some of you guys here provide that XBX on its own will be able to push 30M polygons at 4K, but it MS indeed releases Lockhard, then XBX will all of a sudden be able to push only 20M... The situation is similar with what we saw with PS4/Pro and XB1/X1X, except in reverse - Pro and 1X were designed to scale up already existing games, whereas Lockhart is designed to scale the games down. Actually, in the past few years games were basically made with X1X in mind, with XB1 getting leftovers/rip-offs, so that should also be the case with next-gen consoles as well. Just comparing the TF jump - 1.3vs4, and 6vs12, it's clear where the biggest jump would actually be.
I'll repeat once again - the idea is there, we get it (some don't), but it will all come down to execution, MS has 50% chance to either be spot-on with Lockhart specs or screw it up.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
Having as many subscriptions as possible does NOT equal selling as many console variations as possible. In fact, how was it ever considered the same thing anyway?
If you want as many subscriptions as possible you need to tap into as many different markets as possible. But the market between different variations of Xbox are not different; they are the same customer base. I will give you PC being a new market, but in this case the multiple SKUs really are not different from one another. They are all just console games.
Some console gamers are early adapters, some are later adapters who like paying a bargan with used previous gen games. But still the same market. Sony is fully tapped into them with just PS4 and PS5, in what way is Microsoft splitting their customers into multiple machines suppose to magically increase subscription over what they currently have?
TigerKnee
Member
You know, for a "hardcore" gaming site, I expected better from the lot of you. Next gen CPU, RAM and SSD 1080p box for the masses during a time of a big financial crisis going on. I think it's great we have a cost effective choice. I would love to pay for a cheaper solution for my kids that do not need a premium box (which will be for me 
)
)
diffusionx
Gold Member
You know, for a "hardcore" gaming site, I expected better from the lot of you. Next gen CPU, RAM and SSD 1080p box for the masses during a time of a big financial crisis going on. I think it's great we have a cost effective choice. I would love to pay for a cheaper solution for my kids that do not need a premium box (which will be for me
The problem is that people continue to think of consoles as discrete powerful boxes that companies sell and then get devs to write games for, hopefully exclusively. That’s not the way it works anymore and that’s definitely not how MS is selling it. They’re using the Xbox as a gateway to their services which is where the real money is from their POV. That’s how the entire company operates these days.
And from that POV making a cheaper console that can hook into the same services and provide a platform for development going forward that is consistent with the more expensive one makes total sense.
Ellery
Member
More consoles/PCs -> ways to enter the eco system. If you have a PS5 or Switch you can't get Gamepass or Xbox Gold (it also doesn't make sense). If you have whatever Xbox or whatever PC you can subscribe to it. As easy as that
Gavon West
Spread's Cheeks for Intrusive Ads
Are you serious???
TLZ
Banned
DeltaPolarBear
Member
"Have Whatever Xbox" doesn't mean Microsoft would get more subscribers. If Microsoft make ten SKUs of Xbox, would that mean 10 times as many subscribers?
We have console gamers who buy the latest machine, and we have console gamers who buy current gen really late, all the way to superslim after the next gen is already out. We have the PC market added too. These three are all there is under Xbox or Sony access, and adding more SKUs isn't going to magically spawn more subscribers.
At the moment the Lockhart, at best, would simply be Microsoft's alternate version of Xbox1 superslim. However, I do not see how it could be financially viable to do it this way. Sticking to XB1 superslim the traditional way and with 1 Xbox Series X should target all Console gamers. There isn't enough other stragglers to round up.
Where are all the other subscribers going to come from?
diffusionx
Gold Member
Again, you're looking at this from the perspective of the way consoles were done in the past. The primary reason why console gamers, in the past, bought into the gen later was price. People can't afford $400+ videogame consoles, but they will when it is $300, or $200, or comes with a game, or is on a Black Friday sale. MS is simply giving those people a cheaper option immediately.
I'll use a simple example. There are literally thousands of ways to enter the Android "ecosystem", from cheap $100 phones all the way up to shit that costs $1000. Ultimately, no matter which way you enter the ecosystem, Google benefits because they have another user to spy on.
DaGwaphics
Member
There are a lot of benefits to lockhart over selling One S or One X units. Those One S or One X units will only be viable for so long, once sales slow on that platform and devs move away from cross-gen (2yrs in max), those users probably aren't keeping those subscriptions. Would you still want GP if most of the titles added no longer worked on your system? Lockhart would be good for the generation, once you sell one of these the customer is on the hook, no need to worry about transitioning them with a later sale (until the next round of hardware).
MisterXDTV
Member
What do you mean, "once sales slow"? Xbox One is not selling at all, right now, that's why they are killing them... Xbox One S/X is a DEAD console on the market NOW, not in 2 years...
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Garret Bobby Ferguson
Member
So if they go this route, would the Lockhart end up holding back devs who have to program the game to run on both the high end and low end of the console? I understand textures and resolution differences but will larger aspects of game the effected or held back?
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DaGwaphics
Member
What do you mean, "once sales slow"? Xbox One is not selling at all, right now, that's why they are killing them... Xbox One S/X is a DEAD console on the market NOW, not in 2 years...
I was referring to software sales. New software sales will rapidly diminish on the current gen systems after next-gen is released.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Every game is multiplatform, with or without Lockhart.
Garret Bobby Ferguson
Member
So games are being developed with the OG Xbox one in mind too? Won't they abadon that Midway through the gen like with 360/Xbox one? At some point down the line will Lockhart negatively impact next gen games?
I'm not trying to start anything either I'm just curious
Kumomeme
Member
on paper, should be no problem if the cpu and ssd speed/frequency is same with xsx (especially ssd)
but i dont know, how it will impact devs optimization if the game being developed with 12tf xsx in mind at first place..scale down is harder than scale up..before i read some argument stuff like geometry not something that could be easily scale down...even this gen, even for scale up we see still there lot of devs dont bother for patch of ps4 pro/xsx game version.
what i fear most, later when both company release stronger mid generation revision console like ps4 pro and xbox one x, instead of there 2 version for each console like current generation, for xbox, there become 3 version of console optimization that needed to be done instead..and like i said above, even this gen there issue that devs doesnt bother to patch up game running at stronger console, how it will does with 3 variant? especially for 3rd party devs..... im not suprise to see a situation where certain devs only bother to release patch for stronger iteration and left the weaker one and vice versa..and i not suprise later if there not only will be resolution different, but framerate too which is also might affected that lot more stuff need to be toned down..there another concern that how much lockhart would held up at further in generation where developers start hitting the thresold barriers.
i know people gonna compared to pc, but this is not 1:1 situation..although before there claim from microsoft that latest version of dx12 will allow 'magical' scaling, but in the end surely not all everything is simply "reduce or increase the graphic slider/resolution"... this is not exact situation like pc with wide range of hardware specification...for developers, there more that they need to do behind the code..optimization is one of one of most difficult process. Not to mention there is issue with crunch culture.
but we will see..
but i dont know, how it will impact devs optimization if the game being developed with 12tf xsx in mind at first place..scale down is harder than scale up..before i read some argument stuff like geometry not something that could be easily scale down...even this gen, even for scale up we see still there lot of devs dont bother for patch of ps4 pro/xsx game version.
what i fear most, later when both company release stronger mid generation revision console like ps4 pro and xbox one x, instead of there 2 version for each console like current generation, for xbox, there become 3 version of console optimization that needed to be done instead..and like i said above, even this gen there issue that devs doesnt bother to patch up game running at stronger console, how it will does with 3 variant? especially for 3rd party devs..... im not suprise to see a situation where certain devs only bother to release patch for stronger iteration and left the weaker one and vice versa..and i not suprise later if there not only will be resolution different, but framerate too which is also might affected that lot more stuff need to be toned down..there another concern that how much lockhart would held up at further in generation where developers start hitting the thresold barriers.
i know people gonna compared to pc, but this is not 1:1 situation..although before there claim from microsoft that latest version of dx12 will allow 'magical' scaling, but in the end surely not all everything is simply "reduce or increase the graphic slider/resolution"... this is not exact situation like pc with wide range of hardware specification...for developers, there more that they need to do behind the code..optimization is one of one of most difficult process. Not to mention there is issue with crunch culture.
but we will see..
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Nice troll post, buddy. So much nervousness and spin all because I said PS5 was re-tooled.Wtf. Why the fuck u r making baseless assumptions one after another probably based on bullshit dealer , a know xbox fanboy, puts out ? Ps5 is 10.3 tf get over it and go spread fake fud and make assumptions elsewhere .
U could say sony got ms by surprise since they were expecting ps5 to be 8 tf yet soby did 10.3 tf. high clock gpu has its own benefits .
Once VS videos come out and they r identical, u guys are sameones who are gonna say sony paid to keep parity
"Why the fuck u r making baseless assumptions", "yet soby did 10.3 tf", "u guys are sameones"...do you expect people to take your insults and assumptions seriously when you talk like you were dropped on your head as kid?
Agnostic2020
Member
Go spread fake fud .cheers
Wrong. He said:
00:38:03,429:
He said: a couple of percent. Why didn't he say 2%? Because it must be more than 2, otherwise he would just say 2%. He said 10% before, why then say 2%?
Also, maybe it doesn't really scale well, so, let's say you need more than 10% in power reduction, that does not mean that you then need to reduce the frequency just a little bit more, maybe much more?! who knows. he didn't show us anything
there is a reason why Cerny was so damn vague about it. why he says "a couple" and didn't show any demos or any details. even in the interview with DF he was very fluffly. How come?
FranXico
Member
It "doesn't scale well", because the relationship between power draw and clock frequency is not linear - especially considering the PS5 GPU probably already is running above the "sweet spot". You don't know how the exponential function works, do you?
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Agnostic2020
Member
U keep saying "lets say" and then follow it with things cerny never mentioned . Not interested in discussion fictions with fanboys sorry .
All we know is in order to reduce the electrical power draw by 10% to keep the cooling system quiet, gpu clock drops by couple of percentage .again couple of percent which is below 4 otherwise he would say "few" percent.
Even if the clock drops by 4% gpu power will be 10.03 TF.
Thanks .bye.
Xdrive05
Member
If Lockhart is real, and it probably is, then it is truly the Next-Gen baseline console which on which all multi-plats will need to run, in some form or capacity. One X games running in 1080p performance mode is probably in the same neighborhood, GPU wise, as what Lockhart will target. But the difference in CPU and some GPU bells and wistles will make a very important difference, making it effectively Next Gen in the way that we want. That's all fine and good until, what, 2023?
What happens when ambitious Series X and PS5 games start getting pushed to the 1080p-ish internal render targets toward the end of the generation, like what is happening sometimes now with PS4 Pro? What in the bloody hell will Lockhart be doing then? 600p reconstruction?
What happens when ambitious Series X and PS5 games start getting pushed to the 1080p-ish internal render targets toward the end of the generation, like what is happening sometimes now with PS4 Pro? What in the bloody hell will Lockhart be doing then? 600p reconstruction?
yurinka
Member
I think Lockhart is the bigfoot of the videogames. It never existed but several people claim to have seen it. I think it's bullshit and doesn't make sense for 5 reasons:
1) MS said they will continue releasing their games during the 2 first years of Series X for XBO. Which means that during that period their cheap SKU will be XBO S, XBO SAD and XBO X. Having them, it doesn't make sense to release another "cheap" SKU.
2) MS devs will need to port their games to XBO S, XBO X, Lockhart, Series X and PC. It would be a pain in the ass to optimize something. Even without Lockhart it already is a lot of work compared to PS5 only games or Switch only games, so MS games would look way worse than Sony games.
3) And it would be even worse for multi games, because or they skip the Lockhart port or they won't be next gen only games, they would be crossgen during all the generation.
4) In terms of market, if MS decides to keep supporting XBO S, XBO SAD and XBO X during at least the first 2 years of Series X, it means that Series X will have less sales and market share that if it was the only MS machine in the market. If on top of that there is another SKU, means Lockhart would reduce even more the Series X market share and sales.
5) It would be too confusing for the casual players to have XBO S, XBO X, XBO SAD, Lockhart (Series S) and Series X in the shops or if a game they are going to buy runs on their console or not.
What would make sense for MS would be to only have XBO X as the cheap SKU (with a substantial price cut) and Series X in the market. And to make MS 'next gen' games for only these two SKUs (+PC) during the first two years where they won't have next gen exclusives, and to let next gen multis to skip XBO.
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According to retail, the Xbox One X is going away, so the S can take its spot. As it will be similar in GPU performance to the X, it can take its performance profile, also. Since Microsoft aren't making money on the hardware, it shouldn't make any difference to them which model a consumer purchases.