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[Hudo]

lol maybe.

I don't think this game doing well will do much regarding Bioware as I don't think their goal was to make a bad game or something. So I never get the whole "wake the team up" or "take notice" etc, I don't fucking think Bioware is just NOT WANTING to make a good game, in their minds they think they have a good game, it wasn't that good.

The end. lol

I think its really as simple as that.

Obsidian is really hit or miss, I can't say sucks as they are still better then most tbh, but they still have their own issues, but still a cut above most development teams regarding RPGs. As in, I don't most of us will have an issue with Pillar's Of Eternity 3 or something, that sounds like a day 1 for lots of RPG fans. So lots of hit or miss sure, I don't know if I can say they suck lol

We have teams launching games with zero AI lol

I agree that they want to make a good game over at BioWare. But I think they are misguided in their views of what makes a "good, modern RPG". BioWare's current view seems to be to make it cinematic as fuck with very simple gameplay (but sometimes fun! Andromeda's combat was good) loops and then bloat the hell out of them with pointless bullshit. Which is what Inquisition and Andromeda are. Wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle, all embedded in cinematography.

I also agree with your assessment of Obsidian. Hit and miss. But I think their misses were mostly due to budgetary issues. So let's see how they'll do with Microsoft money.

 

[Guilty_AI]

My main points are:

1. If this game is such a massive mainstream success, how much would its insane production values have contributed to that success?
2. . Even if with these production values, the game fails to resonate with mainstream gamers, then it raises questions about understanding one's audience and their market.

A game like Disaster Report with AAA Budget/Production Values would be able to sell like a AssCreed, The Last of Us or God of War?

Making Grand Theft Auto VI an RTS could justify a 500 USD budget?.

We shall find out soon enough. However for reference, BG3 has been the global top seller on steam for a few days now - only below counter strike - so the interest is definitely there.

 

[Yoboman]

The Gamepass devs are flabbergasted

 

[geary]

I hope the "Rockstar-level nonsense for scope" doesn't mean they also put gameplay second.

That’s what i am afraid of. DOS2 gameplay with lots and lots cutscenes.

 

[the_master]

It's that time of the year again. After Elden Ring's 22 release and devs being salty of its success, now it seems some are already going on the defensive against Baldur's Gate 3

Why devs consider Baldur’s Gate 3 anomaly, not new standard for RPG genre: “It’s Rockstar-level nonsense for scope” | Game World Observer

A few weeks prior to its launch, Baldur’s Gate 3 looks like one of the most promising RPGs in recent memory. However, some devs are urging players not to rate all other games in the genre by such a high standard, appealing to Larian Studios’ unique combination of vast experience and resources.

gameworldobserver.com

Imagine these replies. Josh Sawyer from Obsidian entertainment! Why didn't he make a game of that scope after Pillars of Eternity was done and the engine was known? Since he's got Microsoft funding now i hope he can make a masterpiece for his next project! Apparently that's all you need.

ToTK DLC narrative transpires in that last tweet. BG3's easy because they had the DOS2 done, hell, Sven loves Ultima 7, and that game had 12 years of previous titles feeding into it! SEE? RECIPE IS EASY!

In the meantime, AAA devs have been working on the same foundation baseline since PS3 roughly. Barely any progress in any genres. What's their excuse?

Imagine being threatened by Larian. The studio was small and indie-like not even that many years ago. Much like From Software being thought of as a niche Japanese developer pre-Souls.
Sven worked his fucking soul into that studio. This ain't no fucking ubisoft recipe where they throw 700 peoples at the problem and hope for the best. If this game has the biggest scope of ANY cRPG in existence its because the studio worked for it. Baldur's Gate 3 ain't quick cash grab like the 15th Assassin's creed.

It looks fucking dire for most studios out there, they lost the plot.

You seem very angry at some very reasonable and moderate comments.
One would think that great games are easy to make and a guaranteed success.

We often forget how hard it actually is. How many things do not work well together once built, how many things need to change, how many problems arise during developement. Both internal and external.

Some studios like Larian manage to get it done and maybe have better success. But I think it is more than reasonable to tamper expectations.

I don’t agree with some criticism I see on the thread like “games have not improved at all” it is easy to disregard progress when progress is so costly now a days. Also the market is changing and there are many diferent competing models that also threaten big AAA games.

 

[Ar¢tos]

That’s what i am afraid of. DOS2 gameplay with lots and lots cutscenes.

Is that good or bad?
I bought DOS2 years ago and haven't played it yet.
Maybe after I'm done with Slay the Spire I'll give it a try.

 

[Hudo]

Is that good or bad?
I bought DOS2 years ago and haven't played it yet.
Maybe after I'm done with Slay the Spire I'll give it a try.

I quite liked DOS2's gameplay except for the whole armor system, which is a few steps back from the first Original Sin. Everything else from a gameplay perspective pleasantly reminded me of the Ultima games. It's just that I couldn't stand the writing in DOS2. Which is why when people call BG3 "Original Sin but Forgotten Realms", it couldn't be a better ad for me.

 

[swaffles23]

Double dipping to play on Steam Deck and the PS5

 

[Mister Wolf]

Is that good or bad?
I bought DOS2 years ago and haven't played it yet.
Maybe after I'm done with Slay the Spire I'll give it a try.

The only similarity is they are turn based. D&D 5E's ruleset is nothing like the in house ruleset Larian cooked up for DOS2. I have over 85 hours in BG3 early access. I tried DOS2 and dropped it. I despise its ruleset namely its physical armor/magic armor system.

 

[Punished Miku]

The only similarity is they are turn based. D&D 5E's ruleset is nothing like the in house ruleset Larian cooked up for DOS2. I have over 85 hours in BG3 early access. I tried DOS2 and dropped it. I despise its ruleset namely its physical armor/magic armor system.

Well that's interesting. I've actually still never made the time for a Larian game, but I own DOS 1 and 2. I'll be trying one of these before I consider BG3, but I am definitely more into D&D generally.

 

[MetalRain]

Yes, I think it's fair to say BG3 is an anomaly.

If you look at the landscape, games like Solasta and Pathfinder are quite good, but Larian games are on another level.
And given how much resources Larian has put into this game, I think even they don't want to make as big game very soon.

 

[Fuz]

probably the biggest city ever made in an RPG to date

Ahem
Daggerfall exists.

 

[Fuz]

Obsidian has been making RPGs for decades and have plenty of experience. They have the backing of a $2.5 Trillion megacorp. No, they aren't an underdog anymore.

They should SFTU and instead make better games vs Outer Worlds or whatever they are turning Avowed into.

They don't have Halo level funding from M$. Not even close. They don't have AAA studios money.
Very different from Blizzard.

 

[Fuz]

Yes, I think it's fair to say BG3 is an anomaly.

If you look at the landscape, games like Solasta and Pathfinder are quite good, but Larian games are on another level.
And given how much resources Larian has put into this game, I think even they don't want to make as big game very soon.

Pathfinder does a good number of things better than Divinity.
And I say this as a Divinity fan.

 

[Ar¢tos]

I played BG 1 and 2 when they released centuries ago. I only found now that there are enhanced editions for Ps4 of both games. How are those versions?

 

[Buggy Loop]

Ahem
Daggerfall exists.

The city? (the Daggerfall map is of no matter i mean, procedurally generated.. might as well put an Elite dangerous giant planet that takes hundreds of years to walk around it)

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Dimensions_of_the_Iliac_Bay#Daggerfall_City

According to this page, Daggerfall city is 657.5 m × 657.5 m, thus 0.43 km².

Not even a kilometer length on either side

This is what Larian apparently set forth to model (from Wizard of the coast's official map) :

Since they say that you can literally fly/jump your character around that city without any loading for all that, it'll be bonkers if they pull it off.

If i missed a Daggerfall monstrous city, well then BG 3 will have the biggest hand crafted city ever modeled

 

[Wildebeest]

Pathfinder does a good number of things better than Divinity.
And I say this as a Divinity fan.

If you ignore the bugs, bad performance, dubious quality campaign gameplay and generally sadistic and time-wasting design choices, Owlcat's pathfinder is much better.

 

[Honey Bunny]

Great to see a company raising the bar enough that shit devs are scared of it.

 

[StereoVsn]

If you ignore the bugs, bad performance, dubious quality campaign gameplay and generally sadistic and time-wasting design choices, Owlcat's pathfinder is much better.

Dubious quality campaign gameplay? Are we playing the same game? Pathfinder WotR campaign is excellent, there aren't many bugs that I have seen with almost 150 hours out into the game.

Encounter design is great and there are many, many ways to break them as a player with many different classes. If you are worried about Crusade side just set it on Easy or mod it for even easier play (if on PC).

WotR is a better game overall vs D:OS2 (IMO of course), and thats despite loving the latter and it's predecessor. WotR became one of my favorite CRPGs, no question.

Above is all on PC, no idea how it plays on consoles. Kingmaker was buggy on consoles due to the Publisher not wanting to pay for patches, but I think WotR is different and got updated properly.

 

[Wildebeest]

Dubious quality campaign gameplay? Are we playing the same game? Pathfinder WotR campaign is excellent, there aren't many bugs that I have seen with almost 150 hours out into the game.

I'm talking about the things like base building, managing armies, waiting for events and the like. Not much depth in itself or meaning added to the game but a significant time sink.

Encounter design isn't great. They spam way too many similar encounters, which make the game more of a tedious chore to slog through than a challenge. Then you have the very high level challenges in the game some of which are just, yes, knowing which builds to use to power game it, but then also replaying the fight over and over until you get god rolls and beat them in one round before they get the chance to do the most unsurvivable killer DM BS imaginable. Some people might like this, but to others it is just obnoxious.

 

[StereoVsn]

I'm talking about the things like base building, managing armies, waiting for events and the like. Not much depth in itself or meaning added to the game but a significant time sink.

Encounter design isn't great. They spam way too many similar encounters, which make the game more of a tedious chore to slog through than a challenge. Then you have the very high level challenges in the game some of which are just, yes, knowing which builds to use to power game it, but then also replaying the fight over and over until you get god rolls and beat them in one round before they get the chance to do the most unsurvivable killer DM BS imaginable. Some people might like this, but to others it is just obnoxious.

On the Crusader side that can mostly be just ignored if set to Easy/modded. For encounter design, personally I had a lot of fun with it. Good builds with proper party roll most things without having to reload numerous times. Again, this was on normal/hard but not on highest difficulty.

As a comparison, I had to do reloads in D:OS1 and D:OS2 quite a bit. Encounter design was very puzzle like in places. Then again so were some of the encounters in BG2 as well.
Basically I will agree to disagree here. IMO, Pathfinder WotR is the best CRPG since perhaps BG2, with D:OS2 nipping at it's heels and POE2 following behind (found POE1 to be boring, itemization bad, and combat bland). But again, that's me, so YMMV.

 

[amigastar]

Does anyone know when Reviews are dropping? Before the 3rd August?

 

[Fools idol]

Does anyone know when Reviews are dropping? Before the 3rd August?

There is no embargo, meaning whenever Larian decides to give out review codes, they can drop the next day if the reviewer wants.

Larian in the past however has not been very accomodating for reviewers, I believe Original Sin 2 just dropped and reviewers all got codes either the night before or on the launch day. Not that it mattered.

The game will take at least a full week, AT LEAST, for a reviewer to even finish the main quest. As massive as this game is, one playthrough isn't exactly sufficient to give a truly fleshed out review in my opinion. Probably why Laian doesn't bother, alongside their games being so high quality that they sell well regardless of reviews.

 

[amigastar]

There is no embargo, meaning whenever Larian decides to give out review codes, they can drop the next day if the reviewer wants.

Larian in the past however has not been very accomodating for reviewers, I believe Original Sin 2 just dropped and reviewers all got codes either the night before or on the launch day. Not that it mattered.

The game will take at least a full week, AT LEAST, for a reviewer to even finish the main quest. As massive as this game is, one playthrough isn't exactly sufficient to give a truly fleshed out review in my opinion. Probably why Laian doesn't bother, alongside their games being so high quality that they sell well regardless of reviews.

I aks because i'm scared the game won't turn out as good as we might expect. But that's just my Paranoia.

 

[Fools idol]

I aks because i'm scared the game won't turn out as good as we might expect. But that's just my Paranoia.

sure, I mean it's a possibility, but a very very low one. The game has been out in early access for an age and people on this forum have clocked 100+ hours on it, and even that small taste is enough to gauge it's an extremely good game.

Unless of course, again unlikely, that quality nosedives after Act 1. The guy from Fextralife said from Act 1 and the bits of Act 2 he played at the press event alone have already solified it as his game of the year. Obviously opinions on games are subjective, I usually agree and align with that guys opinions.

 

[amigastar]

sure, I mean it's a possibility, but a very very low one. The game has been out in early access for an age and people on this forum have clocked 100+ hours on it, and even that small taste is enough to gauge it's an extremely good game.

Unless of course, again unlikely, that quality nosedives after Act 1. The guy from Fextralife said from Act 1 and the bits of Act 2 he played at the press event alone have already solified it as his game of the year. Obviously opinions on games are subjective, I usually agree and align with that guys opinions.

My fear is that the game might turn out a little bit janky when it comes to Animations, Mocap and stuff and that could drag down the final score a bit.
But yes, i trust Fextralife also.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I aks because i'm scared the game won't turn out as good as we might expect. But that's just my Paranoia.

I think bugs are the worst that can happen considering what we've seen of the game so far, but its not like i cant understand you with so many bogged releases that didn't deliver the past decade. You can always just wait a week or so to see general opinions on youtube.

 

[Guilty_AI]

My fear is that the game might turn out a little bit janky when it comes to Animations, Mocap and stuff and that could drag down the final score a bit.
But yes, i trust Fextralife also.

I honestly think thats a real possibility. But at the same time, its really the least worrisome thing that can happen imo

 

[hyperbertha]

On the Crusader side that can mostly be just ignored if set to Easy/modded. For encounter design, personally I had a lot of fun with it. Good builds with proper party roll most things without having to reload numerous times. Again, this was on normal/hard but not on highest difficulty.

As a comparison, I had to do reloads in D:OS1 and D:OS2 quite a bit. Encounter design was very puzzle like in places. Then again so were some of the encounters in BG2 as well.
Basically I will agree to disagree here. IMO, Pathfinder WotR is the best CRPG since perhaps BG2, with D:OS2 nipping at it's heels and POE2 following behind (found POE1 to be boring, itemization bad, and combat bland). But again, that's me, so YMMV.

I really want to try pathfinder but it's additional management sim stuff is kinda putting me off. How optional are they?

 

[GymWolf]

My fear is that the game might turn out a little bit janky when it comes to Animations, Mocap and stuff and that could drag down the final score a bit.
But yes, i trust Fextralife also.

You should not expect horizon forbidden west level of digital acting during discussions with npcs to begin with.

Some jank is gonna be there but at the very worse is gonna be in line with AC games with some stiff animations and face expressions.

You don't buy this game for state of the art animations.

 

[ChuckeRearmed]

We will see when it launches

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

I asked GPT what it thinks about the situation and it gave me this response.

It's quite unfortunate that some developers tend to display a sense of insecurity on social media whenever a game achieves success in an unexpected manner. Take for instance the case of Elden Ring. It's commendable that Larian chose to stick to their unique style and cater to their audience rather than compromising their vision for fleeting trends. Therefore, it's only fair that they have earned their success through their hard work and dedication. The behavior of some developers who feel threatened by this success is somewhat awkward and unbecoming.

 

[geary]

I really want to try pathfinder but it's additional management sim stuff is kinda putting me off. How optional are they?

I dont know in WotR, but in Kingmaker you can put the kingdom management on auto from settings and never bother with it.
Might be the same with WotR.

 

[Gorgon]

I still think most people who say this haven't played many WRPGs.

You'd be surprised.

This is why developers have started to look at AI for assistance in development. This “either/or” when it comes to choosing what you want a game to excel at, is the larger issue.

Have a robust RPG? Have AI help the creators with character animations, rigging, mouth movements, and camera placement to help things look smoother and more cinematic in your story heavy RPG with plentiful cutscenes and dialogue.

Have a streamlined RPG with great animations and camerawork, but not enough dialogue freedom and branching paths? Have AI help the creators with creating multi-tiered scenarios and outcomes that will lead you to more branching paths.

That way this is less of a “choose one, janky animations or more linearity” scenario and more of a “the game has great, linear game level of animations, and is open ended as well.”

I think you're expecting too much from AI.

You seem very angry at some very reasonable and moderate comments.
One would think that great games are easy to make and a guaranteed success.

We often forget how hard it actually is. How many things do not work well together once built, how many things need to change, how many problems arise during developement. Both internal and external.

Some studios like Larian manage to get it done and maybe have better success. But I think it is more than reasonable to tamper expectations.

I think what's pissing people off aren't the comments from smaller devs but from those that have AAA development budgets and little besides graphics to show for it. No one is expecting Pathfinder: WotR, as game done on a 2 million dollar budget, to compare to BG3 in terms of production values.

I quite liked DOS2's gameplay except for the whole armor system, which is a few steps back from the first Original Sin. Everything else from a gameplay perspective pleasantly reminded me of the Ultima games. It's just that I couldn't stand the writing in DOS2. Which is why when people call BG3 "Original Sin but Forgotten Realms", it couldn't be a better ad for me.

DOS2, although very good, is way too silly and goofy for my tastes. The cartoonish art direction also puts me off, but for some reason it has become extremely popular in cRPGs during the last decade or so, basically replicating what has been happening in the table-top scene. Guess catering to Gen-Z tastes has become a priority for everyone.

I expect some of that DOS DNA in BG3 too for sure, but I hope everything else compensates for it as far as my tastes go. I think I'll be fine, though.

They don't have Halo level funding from M$. Not even close. They don't have AAA studios money.
Very different from Blizzard.

That somewhat contradicts what I've read from both Obsidian and MS in some interviews. Don't ask me for links because I'd have to google around and you can just as easily do the same yourself, but Obsidian has, iirc, stated that they are now an "AAA studio" (i.e. that they have AAA budget), and MS has stated that they want to push The Outer Worlds into a big successful IP. Also, Avowed was originally supposed to be their "Skyrim" before they refocused the game.

This kind of statements don't make a lot of sense if Obsidian is working on AA-budget levels (or lower). I certainly don't think they have Rockstar- or Bethesda-level budgets, but I also don't think they're operating on less than your average AAA studio would be. I could be wrong, and if you have any info or links throwing light on Obsidian's budget-levels please do share.

I asked GPT what it thinks about the situation and it gave me this response.

Even an AI is more sensible that some of those devs.

 

[Fuz]

Also, Avowed was originally supposed to be their "Skyrim" before they refocused the game.

Yeah, and why they refocused?

 

[Herbspiceguy]

I understand the concerns, and think there is some validity to them, but not to the extent to make a big fuss out of it. Big budget doesn't make or break a good CRPG, for me at least.

For me personally BGIII is an easy pass, as I'm simply not a fan of Larian style RPG's. I've tried getting into a D:OS several times, but every time I just get bored to death after a few hours and there doesn't seem anything appealing about the game in particular.
The same cannot be said about Baldur's Gate, which was an exciting journey from beginning to end.
Also BGIII's marketing strategy has the opposite effect of drawing me in.

 

[Fuz]

The city? (the Daggerfall map is of no matter i mean, procedurally generated.. might as well put an Elite dangerous giant planet that takes hundreds of years to walk around it)

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Dimensions_of_the_Iliac_Bay#Daggerfall_City

According to this page, Daggerfall city is 657.5 m × 657.5 m, thus 0.43 km².

Not even a kilometer length on either side

This is what Larian apparently set forth to model (from Wizard of the coast's official map) :

Since they say that you can literally fly/jump your character around that city without any loading for all that, it'll be bonkers if they pull it off.

If i missed a Daggerfall monstrous city, well then BG 3 will have the biggest hand crafted city ever modeled

Fair enough.
Anyway, Daggerfall is huge and fully explorable - you can enter every single house. If they manage to make a city so big, realistic and believable I'll be impressed.

 

[Gorgon]

Yeah, and why they refocused?

Your guess is as good as mine. Two possiblities that are not mutually exclusive:

1) The talk that they now have AAA-level budgets is just Obsidian/MS PR.

2) They just don't have the chops to pull it off no matter the budget and know it.

3) Both.

 

[Fuz]

Your guess is as good as mine.

My guess is money

 

[StereoVsn]

I really want to try pathfinder but it's additional management sim stuff is kinda putting me off. How optional are they?

Set it on Easy and it's super ... easy. Or if you are on PC you can mod the hell out of it to make it trivial. It's really not as big of an issue as folks are making it out to be.

Well, that's on WotR, Pathfinder was a bit more annoying but even there it wasn't that bad.

 

[StereoVsn]

I really want to try pathfinder but it's additional management sim stuff is kinda putting me off. How optional are they?

Like I replied below, if you set it on easy and/or add some mods, it becomes trivial and you will be able to blow through those parts super quick.

 

[Sanepar]

A great game is anomaly now, I can see where we are going.

 

[Gorgon]

My guess is money

It's a reasonable and good guess, but think about it:

1) MS has very deep pockets.

2) MS knows they have too compete with Sony, they can't skimp on budgets if they want to release games on the same level with their 1st party studios.

3) Both Obsidian and MS have stated they are now AAA.

4) Undead Labs (devs of State of Decay) have basically duplicated their team sizes since the first game. They are now, iirc, at around 150 people from what was about 30-40 people when doing SoD1.

5) InExile's Clockwork Revolution certainly looks way beyond what they could do if they were still operating under the same budget as Wastelands 3.

etc

This doesn't seem to me like Obsidian is operating under the same budget constraints they had back in the day of The Outer Worlds 1. I doubt this is about money, or at least, it's not primarily about money. This is about a team that knows they can't compete with something like The Witcher 3 (or Witcher 2, for that matter) or Baldur's Gate 3, a team that knows fans rave and praise FO:NV to no end and they feel the pressure heating up their asses, especially after the underwhelming Outer Worlds. What would the excuse be now? Quite simply, I don't think they have the chops and their reaction to BG3 just reflects that.

 

[Hudo]

I expect some of that DOS DNA in BG3 too for sure, but I hope everything else compensates for it as far as my tastes go. I think I'll be fine, though.

Yeah, my bet is (and these are also my impression from the early access version) that the forced (and to me unfunny) humor and silliness has been dialed back.

 

[March Climber]

I think you're expecting too much from AI.

I’m expecting just the right amount from AI. The problem with GAF is that nearly everyone here are judging AI features based on version 0.01. No thought, no imagination. It’s just 1:1 “this is what it is and what it will always be.” Most Technology has never been that way.

AI in multiple different forms of helper tools to streamline development so that they can focus more on cool ideas, is the end goal for most devs. They’re going to keep pushing and pushing and making new strides in multiple ways until this is a reality.

The ones who are wanting to create an entire AAA experience by sitting back, typing a prompt, and pressing a button, on the other hand, are living 50-100 years too early.

 

[Gorgon]

Yeah, my bet is (and these are also my impression from the early access version) that the forced (and to me unfunny) humor and silliness has been dialed back.

That's my impression too.

 

[Rentahamster]

I also played the reboot of X-Cum

 

[Alebrije]

Does the game will have physical disc edition for PS5? Or will be only digital?

 

[Fredrik]

This is the most confusing complaint I've ever heard but then again it's Twitter so what else to expect

Just what the fuck is the problem exactly?

- Their game is too big and have too much content! And they have too much experience making these games and can iterate on their prior awesome game systems. It’s not fair! They make the rest of us who make RPGs look bad! Waaah!



Sounds like that tweet where someone joked and said TOTK made every other dev look bad. But it’s not a joke.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

"X-Cum Enemy Inside" to be precise.