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Women And Sexuality In Gaming (Kotaku/Dragon's Crown Thoughts And More)

frequency

Member
What I don't understand is that if I want to make a game and my character is a complete slut, who are any of you to tell me I'm wrong? It's my game, my invested money, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.

What I don't understand is that if I want to make a game and it is always online drm, who are any of you to tell me I'm wrong? It's my game, my invested money, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.

What I don't understand is that if I want to make a game and am compromising RPG elements to be another third person shooter, who are any of you to tell me I'm wrong? It's my game, my invested money, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.

What I don't understand is that if I want to make a game and it uses a real money auction house, who are any of you to tell me I'm wrong? It's my game, my invested money, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.

What I don't understand is that if I want to make a game and _______________, who are any of you to tell me I'm wrong? It's my game, my invested money, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.



This is an internet forum where a large percentage of the posts are someone criticising some aspect of some game.
 

casabolg

Banned
What I don't understand is that if I want to make a game and it is always online drm, who are any of you to tell me I'm wrong? It's my game, my invested money, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.

What I don't understand is that if I want to make a game and am compromising RPG elements to be another third person shooter, who are any of you to tell me I'm wrong? It's my game, my invested money, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.

What I don't understand is that if I want to make a game and it uses a real money auction house, who are any of you to tell me I'm wrong? It's my game, my invested money, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.

What I don't understand is that if I want to make a game and _______________, who are any of you to tell me I'm wrong? It's my game, my invested money, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.



This is an internet forum where a large percentage of the posts are someone criticising some aspect of some game.

Good one.
The complaints should be fine. It is only when an artist is targeted/attacked or something is blocked that it's an issue. That's the only thing I would consider "bad". Everything else would just be opinions.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I've spoke to many people about this. Even 4chan. They all agree it's more useful to praise what you want to see instead of making villains of what you don't. It's a horrid way to breed change that leads to violence and reactionaries. This sort of way of committing change is commonplace nowadays and very much part of the women in video games movement now. Tropes v. Women in Video Games comes to mind immediately, though she adds the request for them to be more original, which is a better touch. Villifying things won't make as much change as much as it will fighting compared to praising what you want to see and trying to empower the female market while boasting the benefits of supporting that market.

The character assassination of the artist of Dragon Crown is just pathetic, destructive, and regressive.


That's right. Talk about getting bogged down in a dumb debate that won't help your cause anyway. Yeah I'm sure once we've defeated all fans of Vanillaware and Giant Boobs our beloved "equal representation in games" or "positive female character" will magically emerge. :/

Better to praise what you like. I really think the industry is moving in so many directions anyway, and many of them are quite eager to further the narrative in inclusive ways that impress a broad audience (ie Bioshock Infinite). There's no reason to act like gaming is a tiny little boat that must be purged of all male fantasy.
 

TaroYamada

Member
What I don't understand is that if I want to make a game and it is always online drm, who are any of you to tell me I'm wrong? It's my game, my invested money, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.

What I don't understand is that if I want to make a game and am compromising RPG elements to be another third person shooter, who are any of you to tell me I'm wrong? It's my game, my invested money, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.

What I don't understand is that if I want to make a game and it uses a real money auction house, who are any of you to tell me I'm wrong? It's my game, my invested money, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.

1. I think many were comfortable not purchasing Sim City due to always online DRM. I often parrot the "don't like it, don't buy it" stance. I didn't buy Sim City despite interest in the title due to Origin/AODRM. I'm sure I'm not alone.

2. I can't speak to this one as I'm not entirely sure what it's about.

3. Even Blizzard has since admitted the RMAH was a mistake. Seems the fanbase was correct in that specific scenario.
 

Karkador

Banned
the point of lotus though is how she defies her stereotypes. thats one of themes of the game, all the characters act different from the stereotypes suggested by their looks. lotus is a computer scientist.

I can't say whether or not this applies to 999, but a character that's simply two opposing traits
is not automatically interesting or good or deep. It really depends on what they do with it.

Do you think characters like the sorceress should be changed?

Perhaps to something like the elf?

Short answer: no. but read on:

I've enjoyed Vanillaware games since Odin Sphere, and have come to expect their worlds and characters to be pretty odd and warped. I haven't followed much about this game, as I must admit I'm not as hyped/interested in it as I have been for their past games, but I'm not really sure why. Maybe it was just the delay.

But anyway, I wouldn't be quick to question their style, as I do believe their is a method totheir madness that has worked out fine so far. IMO, Kamitani's response to the whole thing is kind of odd and I'm not sure what to make of it. But the laser focus on this one character is a bit silly and tiresome when it's really just a symptom of the larger problems in Japanese media, like rampant sexualization and treating homosexuality as a joke. It's not hard to see how these things don't play well for a Western audience.

The context of culture is relevant, sure...but many videogames try to be international products. I don't know if Vanillaware simply enjoys niche status, but someone there seems intent on bringing their games to American audiences. And so, we have this flare up of people going "what the fuck is this, Japan? come on" at the sight of what a Japanese company is presenting to us. We shouldn't even be surprised, with how often they bring this to our doorstep. To be fair, it could be a lot worse. It's not even all that bad. But at the end of the day, people will either be okay with it and buy the game, or look at the box and say "this is dumb and I don't think it's for me" and walk away. Which do you think Vanillaware prefers and is in their best interest?

I don't think anyone is calling for censorship or for it to be changed, but there's nothing wrong or witch-hunty (even if the character is actually a witch) in voicing out your opinion on something. Especially something that you might otherwise want to buy. That's all people do on this forum. I don't see why this can't be a thing that gets threads regularly.
 
What I don't understand is that if I want to make a game and my character is a complete slut, who are any of you to tell me I'm wrong? It's my game, my invested money, and if you don't like it, don't buy it.

This is how I see it. I mean shouldn't developer be allowed to create what they want? Well obviously inside the legal perimeters.
 

markot

Banned
Its just embarassing.

Hell, I wouldnt want to play a game like dragons crown in front of my mum... or anyone...

Its not 'because its sells' its because it seems to be what the game industry artists are stuck in.

Would Starcraft sell worse if the males and females were realistically proportioned? Would Gears of war have sold terribly if the males had necks comparative size to ones that we humans are stuck with?

Theres a difference betwee 'it sells' and 'its all we get'.

Generally speaking, the difference between a male and female is quite small. In lots of games, they look like different species who wouldnt be able to mate successfully.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Its just embarassing.

Hell, I wouldnt want to play a game like dragons crown in front of my mum... or anyone...

Its not 'because its sells' its because it seems to be what the game industry artists are stuck in.

Would Starcraft sell worse if the males and females were realistically proportioned? Would Gears of war have sold terribly if the males had necks comparative size to ones that we humans are stuck with?

Theres a difference betwee 'it sells' and 'its all we get'.

Generally speaking, the difference between a male and female is quite small. In lots of games, they look like different species who wouldnt be able to mate successfully.
Do you think the giant breasts are only in there as a "selling point"? I don't.

I genuinely think its an artistic decision, first and foremost. That's the kind of "Heavy Metal"-style fantasy Kamitani wants to make.

It doesn't mean sexuality has never been used as a selling point, but in this instance...
 
Short answer: no. but read on:

I've enjoyed Vanillaware games since Odin Sphere, and have come to expect their worlds and characters to be pretty odd and warped. I haven't followed much about this game, as I must admit I'm not as hyped/interested in it as I have been for their past games, but I'm not really sure why. Maybe it was just the delay.

But anyway, I wouldn't be quick to question their style, as I do believe their is a method totheir madness that has worked out fine so far. IMO, Kamitani's response to the whole thing is kind of odd and I'm not sure what to make of it. But the laser focus on this one character is a bit silly and tiresome when it's really just a symptom of the larger problems in Japanese media, like rampant sexualization and treating homosexuality as a joke. It's not hard to see how these things don't play well for a Western audience.

The context of culture is relevant, sure...but many videogames try to be international products. I don't know if Vanillaware simply enjoys niche status, but someone there seems intent on bringing their games to American audiences. And so, we have this flare up of people going "what the fuck is this, Japan? come on" at the sight of what a Japanese company is presenting to us. We shouldn't even be surprised, with how often they bring this to our doorstep. To be fair, it could be a lot worse. It's not even all that bad. But at the end of the day, people will either be okay with it and buy the game, or look at the box and say "this is dumb and I don't think it's for me" and walk away. Which do you think Vanillaware prefers and is in their best interest?

I don't think anyone is calling for censorship or for it to be changed, but there's nothing wrong or witch-hunty (even if the character is actually a witch) in voicing out your opinion on something. Especially something that you might otherwise want to buy. That's all people do on this forum. I don't see why this can't be a thing that gets threads regularly.

Thank you for this response. We have had users in these past few debates calling for extreme measures such as the complete removal of sexualized women to another attributing their presence to the larger, harmful effects of gender stereotyping or enforced gender roles. This more nuanced argument you've provided is terrific and I can understand where you're coming from, even if I don't necessarily agree entirely.
If more of the criticisms this and other games received were as carefully thought out, we'd probably have less saber rattling and call to arms.

Personally I feel sexuality is the wrong battlefield and actual female representation at the point of design/creation is where the focus should be.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Personally I feel sexuality is the wrong battlefield and actual female representation at the point of design/creation is where the focus should be.

Yes. This. More women making games: please.

I was happy at a recent programming class I was in... the majority were women! Surprising and inspired hope.
 

markot

Banned
Do you think the giant breasts are only in there as a "selling point"? I don't.

I genuinely think its an artistic decision, first and foremost. That's the kind of "Heavy Metal"-style fantasy Kamitani wants to make.

It doesn't mean sexuality has never been used as a selling point, but in this instance...

I think its immature adolescent wet dream crap. I dont really care about if its a selling point or not. If anything I see it hurting sales cause its so over the top. But that doesnt change how stupid it is.

I think the 'culture' of the games industry is the real culprit here, not marketting. Fact is, its 95% males who draw things for other males.
 

Artemisia

Banned
How do you feel about women in the real world, Broach?



Oh. That's how you feel.

More seriously, citing Japan as any kind of example to follow when it comes to treatment of women is not going to go down well in the West - or, indeed, with many Japanese women.

Objectification happens on both sides of the gender equation in games - more prevalently, perhaps, in Japan of all places, where BL games co-exist with the more obvious bishoujo titles. This is no defense of the premise of this thread, but there are no answers to the problems of objectifying anyone in any way, real life or fictional, other than not doing it.

get HER

nc.gif
 
I think its immature adolescent wet dream crap. I dont really care about if its a selling point or not. If anything I see it hurting sales cause its so over the top. But that doesnt change how stupid it is.

I'd argue that it's going to help sales. It's a niche game as it is. But thanks to this controversy there are more people that know about it than they every would've without it. Sure some won't buy it, but I think more will thanks to having their eyes opened to it. There have been a couple people in a previous DC thread that have mentioned that they're now going to buy it thanks to this controversy bringing it to their attention.

Which is a good thing since I want to see more beat 'em ups released. The genre has basically been dead since the end of the 16 bit era. Plus, the game is absolutely gorgeous

cfnjwr.gif


aivoqv.gif
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I think its immature adolescent wet dream crap. I dont really care about if its a selling point or not. If anything I see it hurting sales cause its so over the top. But that doesnt change how stupid it is.

I think the 'culture' of the games industry is the real culprit here, not marketting. Fact is, its 95% males who draw things for other males.

I agree with the bolded. It's not even a selling point.

But as to the rest of your post... It seems like this style has no interest for you. ;) But I think your rage is a little misplaced.

This game is nowhere near a mainstream example of the gaming industry. It's a niche game that is niche in Japan. It's the equivalent of going into a comic book store, rummaging around until you find Heavy Metal magazine, and then raging against society. It's a niche nerd fantasy for a niche nerd audience... no need to rail against it as if it were a symptom of mainstream entertainment.

You have the right to hate the style, though. Personally I think it's harmless and rather adorable.
 

casabolg

Banned
I think its immature adolescent wet dream crap. I dont really care about if its a selling point or not. If anything I see it hurting sales cause its so over the top. But that doesnt change how stupid it is.
Funny thing is I find it to be the opposite. This sort of strange and over the top art really isn't as big as you say and mainly how they capitalize on the niche market. Not only does it provide a niche genre but also unique art which you don't see represented in the genre.

I think the 'culture' of the games industry is the real culprit here, not marketting. Fact is, its 95% males who draw things for other males.
And 99% of statistics on the internet are made up, but your general point still stands for the male-dominated video game market.
Promoting good tropes for female representation would help considerably without causing much of a backlash at all.
 
I've actually posted about this before, but Halo 4's version of Cortana is just so fucking bizarre to me. On the one hand, I love that they dispensed with the weird holographic-push-up-bra and gave her a more realistic "curvy" frame rather than the supermodel person she became in 2 and 3. In terms of design, she looks great.

But in context, it's fucking bananas. Watching a perfectly-rendered, perfectly-human (besides the blue) tiny woman run around in a game about a man in green armor who shoots a lot of aliens is weird. The fact that she has individually modeled toes is weird. Her lovingly-rendered hair is weird. There was a level of disconnect with Cortana in 2 and 3 that making her realistically human breaks completely.

Originally, Cortana was practically androgynous, and wasn't so much nude but a half-formed hologram. Her progression through idealized-supermodelgram to pretty-much-literally-naked-persongram is just strange.

I preferred her hologram form. I could not understand why her breasts got bigger every game. Why? It woulda been better if she stayed a pretty hologram.
 

frequency

Member
1. I think many were comfortable not purchasing Sim City due to always online DRM. I often parrot the "don't like it, don't buy it" stance. I didn't buy Sim City despite interest in the title due to Origin/AODRM. I'm sure I'm not alone.

2. I can't speak to this one as I'm not entirely sure what it's about.

3. Even Blizzard has since admitted the RMAH was a mistake. Seems the fanbase was correct in that specific scenario.

My point only was that people were loud about all sorts of things and the number of other people that came in just to say, "they should be allowed to do whatever they want so shut up," is much less than the amount that come in to say such things for this topic across the many threads.

Also, I see Blizzard admitting their mistake having a lot to do with the community outcry and universal disapproval of it. If everyone just shut up and let them do whatever, I doubt they would come out so soon to say, "Sorry, that wasn't the best idea..."

So if you don't like something, be loud about it.



Although I agree with casabolg that personal insults of artists and stuff is uncalled for.
 
There is a difference between not liking an art style and bot liking stuff like DRM.

One is personal taste and one could be legit damaging to the game and industry.

Throughout like 20 threads, no one has explained how exactly a design can be harmful.

It comes down to taste.

This goes for stuff like not liking how the game is now a shooter....that's all personal choice. Stop buying shooters if you don't like them...it doesn't work? Then I guess enough people like them. Why should that group lose their preference because of your tastes? It doesn't work that way. No one like DRM or RAH and it only benefits the publishers most of the time. but in the end...if the majority dislikes something...companies will know.

Losing money means a heck of a lot more than dudes crying on the internet.
 
The character assassination of the artist of Dragon Crown is just pathetic, destructive, and regressive.

agreed. you want 'embarrassing'? this is embarrassing. he in no way had any of this coming. it was a cheap shot on the part of someone who obviously had nothing better to talk about...

you want to talk about 'women & sexuality in gaming', go for it. but i personally don't see either this artist, or this game, being the proper place to start or center the conversation. it's a funky little niche title that the mainstream would never've even known existed were it not for this nonsense...
 
All this said, I'm totally playing the elf. Not only is she cute but I like playing as archers.

[IM]http://images.4chan.org/pol/src/1367285623255.gif[/IMG]

It seems like GAF rooms are going to be nothing but elves and occasionally a dwarf, amazon or sorceress. No one seems to care about the poor fighter or wizard. :/
 
Which is ____

As I mentioned earlier, it's feasible for the developer to change the DRM late in development or even after release. It's not feasible for the art style to be changed without delays or scrapping the entire shooting match. Imagine Vanillaware retooling Dragon's Crown into a 2.5D military style game, they'd have to scrap it and start again, effectively.
 

frequency

Member
As I mentioned earlier, it's feasible for the developer to change the DRM late in development or even after release. It's not feasible for the art style to be changed without delays or scrapping the entire shooting match. Imagine Vanillaware retooling Dragon's Crown into a 2.5D military style game, they'd have to scrap it and start again, effectively.

Art style could change. Borderlands changed it. That Insomniac shooter changed too.

But I think it's alright to complain about something even if it can't be changed. Like the Real Money Auction House in Diablo or Mass Effect becoming less and less RPG as the series went on or whatever else is the popular issue at the time. It still tells the developer something for future games.

Criticism is good. Yes, "vote with your wallet," but also be loud about why you're not buying. So if people don't like Dragon's Crown art, they can be loud about it and let Vanillaware decide what they think about that criticism.

We have things like reviews complaining about finished products that definitely can't be changed. It's fine to complain. Though, again, don't do stupid stuff and poison the conversation by calling the artist a 14 year old boy.
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
My point only was that people were loud about all sorts of things and the number of other people that came in just to say, "they should be allowed to do whatever they want so shut up," is much less than the amount that come in to say such things for this topic across the many threads.

Also, I see Blizzard admitting their mistake having a lot to do with the community outcry and universal disapproval of it. If everyone just shut up and let them do whatever, I doubt they would come out so soon to say, "Sorry, that wasn't the best idea..."

So if you don't like something, be loud about it.

I think that to some people, there's a sort of fundamental difference in the way the game's 'systems' work as opposed to the art or character design.

Not to say that the latter isn't important (though it fluctuates on an individual basis, as do design system appreciation), but personally, I seem to see more people complaining about the way a game's systems fail to carry it rather than the characterization or the narrative as long as the underlying principles of the game can carry it through.

In other words, rarely have I stopped playing a game due to narrative design if the systems are fun, while the opposite is more often the case (save for something that I view as egregious, like Mass Effect 3's ending)

This perceived difference could certainly tie back to your point of people not being as 'loud' about the problems regarding characterization, especially that of females.

Though I do believe the level of awareness in such matters is increasing due to the large movements such as the Tropes series and #onereasonwhy in this regard, in addition to the increasing level of technology hopefully allowing for better communication of stories in this regard.

There is a difference between not liking an art style and bot liking stuff like DRM.

One is personal taste and one could be legit damaging to the game and industry.

Throughout like 20 threads, no one has explained how exactly a design can be harmful.

It comes down to taste.

To be fair, IMO, there's a difference in something like Dragon's Crown's Sorceress and say, a character such as Ivy from Soul Calibur, who's designed as a sword-whip fighter, yet is explicitly revealing without any sort of justification through the narrative (at least, that I know of).

If there's no justification/context for it, from a more 'inclusive' standpoint, is there really a good reason at that point to keep it that way? I mean, yes, businesses will look from a sales perspective, but as a consumer, your voice should still be heard if you want more options.

Of course, my example could still theoretically be perceived as personal taste, but at some point, it is worth fighting for your voice to be heard, especially with such a large consumer base that female gamers represent.

Criticism is good. Yes, "vote with your wallet," but also be loud about why you're not buying. So if people don't like Dragon's Crown art, they can be loud about it and let Vanillaware decide what they think about that criticism.

Exactly. I've seen the 'vote with your wallet' used as a shutting down point directed towards criticism of a feature, and that's such a limiting response (not saying it was explicitly used as such here). As a consumer, your ultimate response comes down to that, yes, but in voicing your issues with a product, you can let the developer know how, if they want your business, they can possibly take feedback into account.

Not saying that they have to listen to it, but the more feedback they get, the better product they can deliver to sell to more customers.
 
Art style could change. Borderlands changed it. That Insomniac shooter changed too.

But I think it's alright to complain about something even if it can't be changed. Like the Real Money Auction House in Diablo or Mass Effect becoming less and less RPG as the series went on or whatever else is the popular issue at the time. It still tells the developer something for future games.

Criticism is good. Yes, "vote with your wallet," but also be loud about why you're not buying. So if people don't like Dragon's Crown art, they can be loud about it and let Vanillaware decide what they think about that criticism.

We have things like reviews complaining about finished products that definitely can't be changed. It's fine to complain. Though, again, don't do stupid stuff and poison the conversation by calling the artist a 14 year old boy.

for stuff like art changes and story changes...

I just think it's childish in a way to ask for that. Stuff like DRM yeah go for it. But wanting an art style to change because you don;t like it...opens up too many doors and creates a system where those that did like are fucked over. I never played ME3 but the fact that they had to change their ending because of fans crying...still doesn't sit well with me. I don't care how bad it was.

I guess I just don't like artist's being forced to change their vision..no matter how bad. It's funny that some ask for this and yet get mad when we get focus tested garbage...you bring up Fuse...well there you go. That's a great example of what changing a vision can do.

Stuff like DRM isn't artistic license...that's my thing.
Just my feelings of course...I guess I'm biased because I just don't get the big deal over a design.
 

APF

Member
Plenty of people complain about art direction and character design. When LTTP2 was announced we had literally three threads effectively complaining about the art style.
 
Art style could change. Borderlands changed it. That Insomniac shooter changed too.
In both cases, it was fairly early in development, and in the case of Fuse it's actually brought about more complaints about its art style, not less. And again, stuff like removing DRM is several magnitudes less work. To use SimCity as an example, all that really needs to be done to remove the DRM is to add a local saving option and to add a "play offfline" mode. Far easier than redoing the vast majority of your assets. (Yeah, I know that SimCity is pretty tightly designed around online and multiplayer play with the region system, still doesn't mean that offline play isn't wanted or is impossible. To point is that complaining about DRM is far more likely to get the desired result than complaining about art style (see also Fuse. Bloody focus groups...)

And on a totally different subject, where did Anita go? It's been nearly two months since the first Tropes vs Women episode, and at this rate I'm not entirely convinced she can finish her planned episodes before the end of 2014 or without spending that $150k.
 

frequency

Member
I don't think using Fuse as a positive reinforcement for art style changes is that great of an example. :lol

In both cases, it was fairly early in development, and in the case of Fuse it's actually brought about more complaints about its art style, not less. And again, stuff like removing DRM is several magnitudes less work. To use SimCity as an example, all that really needs to be done to remove the DRM is to add a local saving option and to add a "play offfline" mode. Far easier than redoing the vast majority of your assets. (Yeah, I know that SimCity is pretty tightly designed around online and multiplayer play with the region system, still doesn't mean that offline play isn't wanted or is impossible. To point is that complaining about DRM is far more likely to get the desired result than complaining about art style (see also Fuse. Bloody focus groups...)

And on a totally different subject, where did Anita go? It's been nearly two months since the first Tropes vs Women episode, and at this rate I'm not entirely convinced she can finish her planned episodes before the end of 2014 or without spending that $150k.

I wasn't using Fuse as a positive example. Not all criticism will lead to positive changes. My only point really was just that everyone complains about everything and people are generally pretty okay with that fact. But once in a while you get something like this where, "vote with your wallet," is used to tell people to just shut up.

I'm trying to say stop telling people to shut up. That's all.

I actually like (most of) the art style of Dragon's Crown and am looking forward to it. I would be a little sad if Kamitani toned down his style because someone said he was a 14 year old boy.

And Anita really really really failed. I gave her the benefit of the doubt but two months for the second half of one topic? That's unacceptable.
 

Karkador

Banned
I feel like the Dwarf is just as gratuitous as the sorceress in Dragon's Crown.

I'm not seeing how the Dwarf is to male sex appeal as the Sorceress is to female sex appeal. Beards are in, but not THAT in.

Stuff like DRM isn't artistic license...that's my thing.
Just my feelings of course...I guess I'm biased because I just don't get the big deal over a design.

It's a license of some sort, though. Developers have the right to protect their content from piracy, don't they? It bothers plenty, as we see thread after thread about it...but there are also probably plenty of people who don't mind the DRM and don't understand what the fuss is, or aren't even aware of DRM and its problems.

Personally I feel sexuality is the wrong battlefield and actual female representation at the point of design/creation is where the focus should be.

It's not as simple as just having women working on games, since they're such huge team efforts now that many many people are contributing to. It's also not like any and all women will automatically know the right way to address and solve this issue (or even care, or avoid contributing to the problem). However, despite that, I do agree that having more women working in the field may naturally bring at least a much-needed different set of voices to the industry.
 

casabolg

Banned
I'm not seeing how the Dwarf is to male sex appeal as the Sorceress is to female sex appeal. Beards are in, but not THAT in.

Well that's the thing. He's not mentioning that. He's mentioning that's it's a gratuitous overexaggeration of the body's traditional form. Sex appeal being the true issue, that comes down to men for more interested in the female form than vice versa on average.
I don't find the sorceress sexually appealing and I'm as straight as all get out.



Bodybuilders are sexualized now?

They stop being?

medium_cho_aniki.jpg
 

zoukka

Member
Because the clothing and penis bulge are surely what women find attractive in men.

... Yes?

Don't tell me we are back at the point where you guys are trying to argue that all muscular heroes are sexualized objects designed to please women.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I think the problem is that people only see "boobies female" as sexualized. I think characterization/implications are also liable for sexualization.

I consider the meido archetype also being sexualized since they cater to fantasies of a certain demographic. Same with the moe and submissive female archetype.
 
When sexuality becomes distracting in a game, especially if it has nothing to do with the game's content, I think it starts to hurt my experience. Armor cleavage is very high on what I hate, but the sorceress just goes to an obscene level. There was one other game recently with a damned near nude female.. "Princess Code" or "Code of Princess" or something like that. The game looked pretty good, except for the fact that the idea of someone completely nude fighting off hordes of monsters with swords - aka identifying they're capable of iron smithing.. just doesn't work.

I don't care that those games exist, just don't expect me to buy them if it gets too stupid.

Other games are more interesting with sexuality, like Catherine. Killer is Dead seems to make a good use of sexuality too - the only ridiculous thing is the line "Do you know what it's called when the moon blocks out the sun," trying to sound like it's some deep and thought provoking statement. [Hint: he better]

As for the post directly above me, the submissive female one is annoying as hell to me too. I'm obviously not in cue enough to know what the other two " sexuality archetypes" are, but I definitely know the type of character you're talking about.
 
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