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[David H Wong]

My favorite argument from this thread is the one saying sexist imagery should be allowed because it's expression, and no expression should be silenced, but that articles and threads complaining about it should be shut down.

I know you hate to see your privilege threatened, but that's expression too, kids. I know it's cool to have the world revolve almost exclusively around your tastes, but you're not the center of the universe.

 

[faceless007]

There's another point to be made about that false equivalence, which is that while absurdly muscled characters like Kratos and Marcus are prominent in the industry, they are by no means the majority or the default design for male characters. The "average" male protagonist these days is someone like Nathan Drake, Altair, Ezio, Nico Bellic, Shepherd, i.e. somewhat athletic but not on steroids, and not sexualized in any way. If you don't like playing as characters like Kratos or Marcus, the industry is providing you with plenty of alternatives even in high-budget, AAA games. This is basically not true for female characters--the default design for them is highly sexualized and in no way functional, and while there are some counter-examples (Faith in Mirror's Edge), female players have slim pickings when it comes to finding female characters they can more easily relate to on a visual level.

 

[7Th]

This is what sexualized male characters actually look like; they don't really exist outside of Japanese games.

 

[Mesoian]

and most men aren't attracted to strong confident women who are taller then them. The argument works flipped around.

The reality is that these characters, Barbie and G.I.JOE, are the same characters we grew up with as children and rely on that nostalgia to allow players to project themselves into the characters more easily.

Agreed. And people shouldn't stop making characters that they can relate to as it often results in inferior work. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't an EXTREME need for characters who don't fit so neatly inside the character tropes that we've all grown up with. We do need better characters going forward, but we shouldn't burn everything we've done thus far to get them.

 

[Karkador]

Yeah, it really isn't. It might fit a vast minority's sexual preference, but on a whole, women aren't drawn to the super muscle-ly kratos/Marcus Pheonix/John Batista look. You'd find far more women who find characters like Nathan Drake more appealing.

More than that, saying "people who look like ______ are sexualized" lacks a understanding of what 'sexual' is.

Sexualization is not simply a matter of a physical characteristic of a person. You can depict a woman with big breasts and not sexualize her at all. You can sexualize a scrawny guy who has nothing to do with muscles and testosterone. Watching Jurassic Park recently made me notice that Ian Malcolm is the only sexualized character in that entire movie...and he's an odd nerd.

Likewise, the majority of brawny musclemen in media are not actually being sexualized.

It's not just about making someone with particular traits. Its how they act, how the camera depicts them, what they are doing and why. In aggregate, it's about how often this happens, and why there is such a imbalance in who it happens to.

 

[palpabl_purpura]

Yeah, it really isn't. It might fit a vast minority's sexual preference, but on a whole, women aren't drawn to the super muscle-ly kratos/Marcus Pheonix/John Batista look. You'd find far more women who find characters like Nathan Drake more appealing.

You can't make those generalizations. Just like male tastes vary so does female tastes. I don' t like anime girls, but a whole hell of alot of guys do. I'm not buying that Brooklyn Bridge. You are being being dismissive to the other side, which is exactly the problem (as i have stated).

The argument usually starts with " but males arent depicted sexually. . " with either blatanly ignoring examples of male sexuality or failing to recognize it. Male sexuality is power confidence and /or arrogance and kratos personifies this in character and imagery.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Agreed. And people shouldn't stop making characters that they can relate to as it often results in inferior work. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't an EXTREME need for characters who don't fit so neatly inside the character tropes that we've all grown up with. We do need better characters going forward, but we shouldn't burn everything we've done thus far to get them.

but when you factor in the requirement for game developers to liscense out characters for merchandizing to recoup costs, the neccessity for these characters feed back into the same loop of child nostoglia only becomes more prolific.

 

[Mesoian]

My favorite argument from this thread is the one saying sexist imagery should be allowed because it's expression, and no expression should be silenced, but that articles and threads complaining about it should be shut down.

I know you hate to see your privilege threatened, but that's expression too, kids. I know it's cool to have the world revolve almost exclusively around your tastes, but you're not the center of the universe.

Well...it should be allowed because it's expression. It should also be criticised heavily if it's sexualization for sexualization's sake. I don't think anyone is going to sit here and say that X-Blade's has a deep and varied design where blonde girls in super high thongs exude their dominance over giant snakes and spiders in a psuedo futuristic world with a straight face. And I'm not saying that, for a more timely example, The Sorceress from Dragon Crown doesn't have a cartoonish design that's almost impossible to take seriously. But I don't want that stuff to just disappear; I want people to make stuff that's more based in reality, but I also want it to be interesting.

In the Anita Sarkesian thread, we got into an offshoot discussion about female armor and how sexualized armor (male or female) in real life would be a horrible idea. But most of the time when you see sexualized armor, it's in a fantasy setting. I want designers to come up with a way of making armor not just a chest plate with giant tits on it, but still make it aesthetically pleasing. These are the challenges that we need to address going forward, because honestly, most of the shit we see in MMO's, or JRPG's or western RPG's is just fucking lazy shit.

 

[Mesoian]

but when you factor in the requirement for game developers to liscense out characters for merchandizing to recoup costs, the neccessity for these characters feed back into the same loop of child nostoglia only becomes more prolific.

How often does that happen outside of japan though? Beside the core product, in the case the game, merchandising characters rarely factors into the equation unless you're working off a pre-existing license. Sega wasn't making big bucks with Bayonetta figures, nor Epic with General Ram figures. If the character is designed well people will still want to get into that niche secondary merchandising deal even a character isn't half naked with tits the size of her head.

 

[batman2million]

Kind of sad that even this day and age we have to argue about sexism in our entertainment.

I've recently started working in the wonderful "corporate America" and I've noticed a lot of women, who have been working for a while, complaining about how they're not treated or paid equally.

I was hoping that our generation (25-30 year old) wouldn't even think twice in these types of situations.

On a side note, I did not like Beyond good and evil.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

How often does that happen outside of japan though? Beside the core product, in the case the game, merchandising characters rarely factors into the equation unless you're working off a pre-existing license. Sega wasn't making big bucks with Bayonetta figures, nor Epic with General Ram figures. If the character is designed well people will still want to get into that niche secondary merchandising deal even a character isn't half naked with tits the size of her head.

Constantly, halo for example earns more money from their merchandizing of halo 3 then they have on all the software from the entire franchise.

Even if doesn't sell well, the profit margin on "toys" is much much higher, they have the design and marketing complete, theres no development costs at all, so it's purely material and manufactuing costs, which is next to nothing.

This also re-inforces the need for the cinematic character approach in game design which forces players into more rigid tropes. If i could character create nathan drake to be a male or female, like i could in halo reach, then many arguments of sexualizing the character is out the window. But it kills off secondary markets, you can't character create in movies or figures.

 

[7Th]

Kratos doesn't have nearly enough slash-fanart to be considered a valid example.

 

[Mesoian]

Constantly, halo for example earns more money from their merchandizing of halo 3 then they have on all the software from the entire franchise.

Even if doesn't sell well, the profit margin on "toys" is much much higher, they have the design and marketing complete, theres no development costs at all, so it's purely material and manufactuing costs, which is next to nothing.

But who's making that money? Not 343, but Microsoft right (Through budgeting...you know what I mean. Bungee never saw a cent of that stuff)? And no publisher in their right mind can go into a publishing deal based off a new IP with 8-18 months of merchandising on the table, that's insanely bad business and that's what got EA into trouble with that Anime Offshot they were planning before everyone decided they hated Mass Effect 3. If the brand isn't established, there's no way that stuff can even happen. It's only super popular mega franchises that have the ability to do that kind of thing (in America).

If a publisher is trying to change characters in order to sell toys further down the line, that's a fucking TERRIBLE publishing deal and those devs should (and probably will) jump ship shortly after.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

But who's making that money? Not 343, but Microsoft right? And no publisher in their right mind can go into a publishing deal based off a new IP with 8-18 months of merchandising on the table, that's insanely bad business and that's what got EA into trouble with that Anime Offshot they were planning before everyone decided they hated Mass Effect 3. If the brand isn't established, there's no way that stuff can even happen. It's only super popular mega franchises that have the ability to do that kind of thing (in America).

If a publisher is trying to change characters in order to sell toys further down the line, that's a fucking TERRIBLE publishing deal and those devs should (and probably will) jump ship shortly after.

usually it's a split between developer and publisher. Most publishers are now looking at furture games which have merchandizing potential, even if it's not acted upon. I can't think of a single "aaa" game from ea, activision or one of the console manufactures that doesn't have merchandizing or potential behind it.

And most developers dont have a choice, many developers are skating on thin ice and work for bare bones to make sure they can keep making games. If they jump ship they'll be hit by a variety of lawsuits or lose publishing deals, wont be picked up, etc. It's much more complex then developers not being given freedom.

These type of development practices are the root cause for the market testing which creates these trope characters. Hence why i get so fustrated by these threads, many times the issue is misplaced. Like developers want to make this stuff (some times it is, like in bayonetta or dc) but most of the time it's a much more complex issue with finances, design, and market testing all playing into the fold.

 

[Mesoian]

usually it's a split between developer and publisher. Most publishers are now looking at furture games which have merchandizing potential, even if it's not acted upon. I can't think of a single "aaa" game from ea, activision or one of the console manufactures that doesn't have merchandizing or potential behind it.

And most developers dont have a choice, many developers are skating on thin ice and work for bare bones to make sure they can keep making games. If they jump ship they'll be hit by a variety of lawsuits or lose publishing deals, wont be picked up, etc. It's much more complex then developers not being given freedom.

These type of development preactices are the root cause for the market testing which creates these trope characters.

...fair.

It's actually a pretty interesting way of looking at part of the problem, original designs being altered in order to try selling non-related things down the line. Makes you wonder if we truly do have to rely on the indie scene for anything resembling an actual progressive shift in how women are depicted in games, since the billion dollar publishers are so inclined to keep selling a brand as "cheaply" as possible.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

...fair.

It's actually a pretty interesting way of looking at part of the problem, original designs being altered in order to try selling non-related things down the line. Makes you wonder if we truly do have to rely on the indie scene for anything resembling an actual progressive shift in how women are depicted in games, since the billion dollar publishers are so inclined to keep selling a brand as "cheaply" as possible.

The indie scene and high profile teams. Rockstar, Valve, bungie, blizzard, bioware, dice, these types of developers are usually given a blank cheque, and thus their games are often less relient on market testing characters into tropes. They have more freedom, and usually their characters fall into better representations, Chell, Alyx, Faith, Hasely, Tony etc.

Same with games which offer more freedom, "undirected" game design where players are given options to create their own characters and choices, are another way these tropes can be avoided.

 

[Delusibeta]

A franchise isn't merchandised if it doesn't have branded T-shirts, colouring books, lunchboxes, a breakfast cereal and a flamethrower.

 

[Mesoian]

The indie scene and high profile teams. Rockstar, Valve, bungie, blizzard, bioware, these types of developers are usually given a blank cheque, and thus their games are often less relient on market testing characters into tropes.

Same with games which offer more freedom, "undirected" game design where players are given options to create their own characters and choices, are another way these tropes can be avoided.

Well...to a degree. I'm with you with Rockstar, and now studios like Irrational have that status, but it sounds like EA fucks with Bioware ALL THE TIME, their interactions basically being why the Doctor's wanted to go do ANYTHING (and apparently everything) else after TOR was done.

But as for created characters, that's a dangerous place to be as well as it never really fixes the problem. If you have to write an entire world to a unisex entity, you often end up falling into a lot of tired rhetoric that gets sloppy pretty quick. Saint's Row the 3rd is particularly egregiousness about this, but the over the top nature of the game makes you not dwell on those problems for very long (I hated that the vocal scripts for the 3 female types were SOOOO close to the male types). Writing for characters is important to the stories, it's why we fall in love with them or detest them, and when the main protagonist is such an empty shell, it can lead to an unsatisfying experience. Putting a gender in stone doesn't have to detract from the experience if they write it well.

And now I've gone circular because I'm right back to "We need better designers and writers in gaming to move forward."

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Well...to a degree. I'm with you with Rockstar, and now studios like Irrational have that status, but it sounds like EA fucks with Bioware ALL THE TIME, their interactions basically being why the Doctor's wanted to go do ANYTHING (and apparently everything) else after TOR was done.

But as for created characters, that's a dangerous place to be as well as it never really fixes the problem. If you have to write an entire world to a unisex entity, you often end up falling into a lot of tired rhetoric that gets sloppy pretty quick. Saint's Row the 3rd is particularly egregiousness about this, but the over the top nature of the game makes you not dwell on those problems for very long (I hated that the vocal scripts for the 3 female types were SOOOO close to the male types). Writing for characters is important to the stories, it's why we fall in love with them or detest them, and when the main protagonist is such an empty shell, it can lead to an unsatisfying experience. Putting a gender in stone doesn't have to detract from the experience if they write it well.

And now I've gone circular because I'm right back to "We need better designers and writers in gaming to move forward."

While I agree on the need for better writing and design, the undirected character experiences are inherently more free to allow a player to impart their own personality. Through that game design the characters are less relient on characteristics like sexualization to engage audience.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

You may not say it, but I will- people are being overly sensitive on this issue.

These threads have novel value that gets old quickly. At the end of the day, we are arguing over what? How polygons are rendered in a fantasy reality? What about gender inequalities that exists in real life? In contrast they are very real. And this is what you devote your energy to? And we are getting hot over a game? Really?

In psychology, people call it the shadow side, when they project some own inferiority/inner problem on the world. And thus you get radical political groups who try to divide the world into teams and "us versus them" mentality.

We all know the truth. People would be better if they found peace instead of letting their happiness be dictated by other peoples preferences of pixels. And if you have a problem with something, ignore it and focus on what you enjoy. To crusade against others tastes can't be healthy.
This constitutes of course, that it's nothing that physical hurts other people.

So mental illness and refusing to get help has nothing to do with the suicide rate? It's only insecurity from what Dudebro games and spam emails tell them they should be like? Though you are touching on legitimate coo concerns, you make a very desperate argument. You know that these harmful media portrayals and social pressures are mostly conceived by other men, right? The people who are pressuring you the most about dick size and how swole you are are other men.

So why exactly are you blaming talk about women's issues on there not being enough attention on this?
.

Why are you so obtrusive and absolute? Advice to your own methods of rhetorics - Try not to debacle other posters into yes/no questions to your loaded questions.

Of course mental illness has something to do with suicide issues, but there are also other factors involved. Of course.


You seem so hang up on having decided that I am a crusader for men rights, when that was not my point at all. of course there is more to it. Of course there are social expectations and idolizing of sports starts, characters like don draper and so on that is not exclusively from other men, but also expectations from society. from commercials, to what you see on TV and films.

Just like women. Women can be really mean to each other, which makes sense. They got a big competition going on, sometimes. A lot of their attention is based on looks, and ugly women are often forgotten. Louis CK said it best; http://youtu.be/Ohbv6haI1aQ?t=54s < Harsh but a good point.



And something we haven't even talked about - all those women who play video games who enjoy playing highly sexualized characters in skimpy outfits. I enjoy playing sexualized male characters. I think a lot of people do. In fact I think most people do, who are comfortable and relaxed about themselves and their own sexuality. But that's just a guess

The problem is that you (and plenty of MRA guys) want to talk about men's issues at the expense and malignment of talk about women's issues. You can't accept that there can be more than one campaign, and that men and women aren't at odds with each other.

Nope, completely false. I am saying that some victoria secret ad of a beautiful slim perfect looking blonde is not any more body-image ruining than its male counterpart with a young stud with shizzled abs and a perfect chin.

I am not trying to turn into a mens issue. I am saying that the world can be obtrusive and offensive to EVERYONE and EVERYTHING if you choose to victimize yourself and let your own happiness and personal responsiblities be defined by external factors like the content which people choose to create.

Is it really so overboard to want more videogames they can relate to?

No. Just dont take my sex and violence. and dont take their fantasies away either. Rinse repeat - gaming will get its twilight. I am sure of it. But publishers will bank safe.



80% of all video games are about killing/destroying (Edge statistics from a few years back, dont got link..). If thats true it makes sense that we have such a surplus of gaming stories revolving around dude-bros shooting.


It's not overboard, because we need good stories, period. That goes for hollywood too. it's cliche one dimensional characters for men AND women. and that's the trope gaming is caught in.

 

[casabolg]

Hypothetical time.

Pretty I'm the artist of Dragon's Crown.
I realize your complaint and apologize. I will not stop doing it however.
What now?

 

[AlucardGV]

Hypothetical time.

Pretty I'm the artist of Dragon's Crown.
I realize your complaint and apologize. I will not stop doing it however.
What now?

you're free to do what you want.
it's not like you have to apologize, anyway

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Hypothetical time.

Pretty I'm the artist of Dragon's Crown.
I realize your complaint and apologize. I will not stop doing it however.
What now?

Then the detractors don't buy your game, same as always.

 

[Mesoian]

Hypothetical time.

Pretty I'm the artist of Dragon's Crown.
I realize your complaint and apologize. I will not stop doing it however.
What now?

I don't buy your game. And why should you apologize?

I have no plans on buying Dragon's Crown, and the artwork is a factor, but he's also done other things I like in the past like Odin's Sphere and Masamune. I gave him my money then because everything was, visually, a lot more interesting on both sides of the spectrum.