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[alabtrosMyster]

No, not at all. You are disregarding the next line in the same quote. Unless writing engines to specific hardware doesn't give better performance?

So it’s 100% possible that they done the bare minimum to get it to 6K. (We just don’t know, well we know the renderer wasn’t rewritten for the Xbox) Seems the Xbox just brute forces it’s way to 6K

I personally think that the dev has an affair with both Jim and Cerni. Phil refused to please him so he limited the Series X version to 6k, a resolution that is well known to be useless in console warring.

I think the message is clear, lay down in bed with me or have your games run at sub 8k resolutions, which is shameful.

 

[mrmeh]

But that is what it is? Both GNM and DX12 are low level APIs. There is no real way to prove which one is more 'low level' than the other. We just know that both are. Unless you think Microsoft, Nvidia, and AMD are all lying?

The difference between DX11 and DX12 are the same as the difference between GNMX and GNM, heck PlayStation Shader Language is very similar indeed to the HLSL standard in DirectX as confirmed by a developer themselves:

How The Crew was ported to PlayStation 4

Ubisoft Reflections tells the story of how it brought the new Ivory Tower driving game to PS4.

www.eurogamer.net

Also some good explanations about the difference between the PS4 GNM low level API and DX11:



The move from DX11 to DX12 is the exact same thing, many things that DX11 handled needs to be optimised and coded for the developer:

DX12 has to support multiple different hardware architectures, its an abstraction layer so is probably not 100% optimal despite offering closer to the metal access than before, you still hear Dev's moaning about it.

That's fine, MS approach is inherently cross platform PC/Xbox/Cloud. Sony have it easier with being able to target one console with their API. Both are good and pretty comparable at the same price. Don't understand all the people on here acting the way they do.

 

[Lysandros]

How do you cope with the fact that the PS5 has less units and an higher fill rate?

The ratios are completely different from one console to the next, actually the xbox one had more ROPs units per CUs (still less fill rate in total)
PS4
CUs: 18
ROPs: 32

PS4 PRO
CUs: 36
ROPs: 32

PS5
CUs: 36
ROPs: 64

One
CUs: 12
ROPs: 16

One X
CUs: 40
ROPs: 32

Series S
CUs: 20
ROPs: 32

Series X
CUs: 52
ROPs: 64

I have not looked at the TMUs, shader units, etc. but I assume they are added to a units built to the specs of the client (MS, Sony, Atari, etc.)

Good post. PS4 PRO had 64 ROPs by the way, Techpowerup/Wikipedia figures are wrong.

PS4 Pro and Xbox One X processors compared at the silicon level

We knew the spec many months before its launch and gained insights on its core design from its system architect, but on…

www.eurogamer.net

Fom the article:
"It'll also be challenging to see that the Pro features 64 ROPs, up against Xbox One X's 32. Leaked documentation from the Sony SDK confirms this, and likely it's a factor of the platform holder adopting a 'mirror image' strategy on the GPU to ensure compatibility with the base system - the 32 ROPs of the original PS4 is doubled up along with everything else. As things stand, doubling up on ROPs is an intriguing postscript to what we know about the established Pro spec, but the docs also confirm that it's theoretically impossible to fully utilise them - the memory bandwidth just isn't there."

 

[Zathalus]

DX12 has to support multiple different hardware architectures, its an abstraction layer so is probably not 100% optimal despite offering closer to the metal access than before, you still hear Dev's moaning about it.

That's fine, MS approach is inherently cross platform PC/Xbox/Cloud. Sony have it easier with being able to target one console with their API. Both are good and pretty comparable at the same price. Don't understand all the people on hear acting the way they do.

Yes DX12 on PC is not as low-level as the Playstation, but the DX12 version and driver model on the XSX is much more efficient then the PC version, as noted by Microsoft themselves.

DX12 on PC is already a low-level API, but DX12 on the XSX is a different beast. In Microsoft own words "It's significantly more efficient than the PC".

 

[alabtrosMyster]

The devs have already told us the reason it's 8K on PS5, i.e., their game engine was more suitable to how the PS5 is designed: better memory setup and higher GPU clocks. That's it. It's really that simple.

This is entirely possible, the machines have slightly different strength and weaknesses. Some games are bound do take more advantage of one over the other, making one console outshine its apparent base potential from time time--everything else being equal.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Good post. PS4 PRO had 64 ROPs by the way, Techpowerup/Wikipedia figures are wrong.

I wasn't too sure as I saw both numbers and preferred to lowball it.

 

[Kerlurk]

Gaming Discussion

Video game news, industry analysis, sales figures, deals, impressions, reviews, and discussions of everything in the medium, covering all platforms, genres, and territories.

www.neogaf.com

 

[Md Ray]

Didnt the x1 also have this compared to the PS4 because of its higher clocked GPU?

it's nowhere near comparable to PS5. OG XB1 has about 6.6% higher core clock than PS4, but it severely lacked in CU count, the amount of ROPs, TMUs, async compute engines, etc. Then there was a significant reduction in bandwidth due to DDR3 on XB1 vs GDDR5 on PS5.
PS5's core clk is 22% higher, while it has fewer CUs and TMUs than XSX, it has the same amount of ROPs as XSX and non-split memory banks which allows it to close the gap in certain workloads and even outperform XSX like in the case of Touryst. We had this discussion not too long ago, but you were in denial and it seems like you still are. It was Shin'en (Touryst devs) themselves who told DF that it's PS5's higher clock speed and its mem setup that made the difference.

 

[Lysandros]

it's nowhere near comparable to PS5. OG XB1 has about 6.6% higher core clock than PS4, but it severely lacked in CU count, the amount of ROPs, TMUs, async compute engines, etc. Then there was a significant reduction in bandwidth due to DDR3 on XB1 vs GDDR5 on PS5.
PS5's core clk is 22% higher, while it has fewer CUs and TMUs than XSX, it has the same amount of ROPs as XSX and non-split memory banks which allows it to close the gap in certain workloads and even outperform XSX like in the case of Touryst. We had this discussion not too long ago, but you were in denial and it seems like you still are.

Excellent post. But please dear friend, do not use this expression, i am really allergic to it, just a little personal request.

 

[Heisenberg007]

This is entirely possible, the machines have slightly different strength and weaknesses. Some games are bound do take more advantage of one over the other, making one console outshine its apparent base potential from time time--everything else being equal.

Exactly. And if or when comes a game that is designed in a way to leverage higher CU count (vs. higher clocks) more effectively, XSX will likely outperform PS5 in that game.

But some here are suggesting/implying that there is no way that any engine or game can benefit from PS5's design philosophy, and if a game is outperforming on PS5, then it only means that the devs messed up the XSX version, and that could be the only reason.

I think that's disingenuous. Both consoles are super close to each other in terms of performance. Both consoles are awesome. And both consoles will continue to perform very similarly this generation, as has been the case so far. Some game engines will perform better on PS5, while others will perform better on XSX.

 

[Md Ray]

Excellent post. But please dear friend, do not use this expression, i am really allergic to it, just a little personal request.

Thanks, do you mean the "allows it to close the gap" part?

Some of the posts before mine (including yours) explained it better than I ever could.

 

[Lysandros]

Thanks, do you mean the "allows it to close the gap" part?

Yes. You know, the famous, huge, grand Canyon of a power difference between the machines.. Just joking.

 

[Md Ray]

Is that Jesús Quintero smoking a joint? lol

The thing I least expected to see on GAF.

I've always wondered why GAF is so full of Spanish freaks.

It's him yeah

And this is one of my fav ones.

 

[assurdum]

But that is what it is? Both GNM and DX12 are low level APIs. There is no real way to prove which one is more 'low level' than the other. We just know that both are. Unless you think Microsoft, Nvidia, and AMD are all lying?

The difference between DX11 and DX12 are the same as the difference between GNMX and GNM, heck PlayStation Shader Language is very similar indeed to the HLSL standard in DirectX as confirmed by a developer themselves:

How The Crew was ported to PlayStation 4

Ubisoft Reflections tells the story of how it brought the new Ivory Tower driving game to PS4.

www.eurogamer.net

Also some good explanations about the difference between the PS4 GNM low level API and DX11:



The move from DX11 to DX12 is the exact same thing, many things that DX11 handled needs to be optimised and coded for the developer:

How many times we heard such talks by MS/AMD/Nvidia? Yeah probably direct X 12 will improve from this point of views immensely but expect it by XSX the same low access API of the ps5, with a multiplat environment kit, it's really naive. Coding abstraction doesn't allow it at all. Dedicated hardware coding it's another story.

 

[Evilms]

And this is one of my fav ones.

choose your weapon

 

[Sosokrates]

it's nowhere near comparable to PS5. OG XB1 has about 6.6% higher core clock than PS4, but it severely lacked in CU count, the amount of ROPs, TMUs, async compute engines, etc. Then there was a significant reduction in bandwidth due to DDR3 on XB1 vs GDDR5 on PS5.
PS5's core clk is 22% higher, while it has fewer CUs and TMUs than XSX, it has the same amount of ROPs as XSX and non-split memory banks which allows it to close the gap in certain workloads and even outperform XSX like in the case of Touryst. We had this discussion not too long ago, but you were in denial and it seems like you still are. It was Shin'en (Touryst devs) themselves who told DF that it's PS5's higher clock speed and its mem setup that made the difference.

Yes 22% is higher then 6% and the the PS5 is better in comparison to the xsx then the x1 was to the ps4, however the touryst is not evidence of superior performance for the PS5 because its not an equal comparison, the ps5 version is a native version, on xsx its a modified xbox one BC game. The developer never said the xsx can not do the touryst in 8k.


PS5 having a resolution advantage seems unlikely because there are more xsx games which have a higher resolution.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

But some here are suggesting/implying that there is no way that any engine or game can benefit from PS5's design philosophy, and if a game is outperforming on PS5, then it only means that the devs messed up the XSX version, and that could be the only reason.

This is a DF talking point, obviously people have caught on to it.

Yes 22% is higher then 6% and the the PS5 is better in comparison to the xsx then the x1 was to the ps4, however the touryst is not evidence of superior performance for the PS5 because its not an equal comparison, the ps5 version is a native version, on xsx its a modified xbox one BC game. The developer never said the xsx can not do the touryst in 8k.

They never said they neglected or rushed the xbox version either.

How about you wait for a patch or two and then you can shame everybody who denies the xbox series s is superior, we will eat crow for you.

 

[assurdum]

Yes 22% is higher then 6% and the the PS5 is better in comparison to the xsx then the x1 was to the ps4, however the touryst is not evidence of superior performance for the PS5 because its not an equal comparison, the ps5 version is a native version, on xsx its a modified xbox one BC game. The developer never said the xsx can not do the touryst in 8k.


PS5 having a resolution advantage seems unlikely because there are more xsx games which have a higher resolution.

Yeah because most of the such games favourite compute calculation than the faster frequency, I guess. Another game lately which run at higher resolution on ps5 was The Medium except in the splitted screen sequences, because obviously it's more CPU tied.

 

[Sosokrates]

This is a DF talking point, obviously people have caught on to it.

They never said they neglected or rushed the xbox version either.

How about you wait for a patch or two and then you can shame everybody who denies the xbox series s is superior, we will eat crow for you.

I just checked and it actually optimized for series consoles, it was done 11 months ago when the series consoles had early half baked dev tools.
So it does not make much sense to draw any conclusions right now.

 

[AlexxKidd]

 

[assurdum]

It is not a native XSX app though and it was done 11months ago. Maybe that means something, maybe it doesn't, so it does not make much sense to draw any conclusions right now.

Did the developers said that?

 

[Sosokrates]

This is a DF talking point, obviously people have caught on to it.

They never said they neglected or rushed the xbox version either.

How about you wait for a patch or two and then you can shame everybody who denies the xbox series s is superior, we will eat crow for you.

It is not a native XSX app though and it was done 11months ago. Maybe that means something, maybe it doesn't, so it does not make much sense to draw any conclusions right now

Yeah because most of the such games favourite compute calculation than the faster frequency, I guess. Another game lately which run at higher resolution on ps5 was The Medium except in the splitted screen moments, because obviously it's more CPU tied.

The medium was missing ray tracing on PS5 though.
More info is needed from the dev, i see no reason to jump to any conclusions at this point.

 

[polybius80]

and they deserve the credit.

we dont know how difficult it was, if he says it was due to memory speed and memory setup sound like little modification it certainly doesnt sound as a new lod system or special shader or a different render path just it ran faster, wich of course is speculation but so is thinking it was so difficult, we know what was said and its entirely specs of the machine and rewriting to use them, he did the same in series x and got 6k

 

[assurdum]

It is not a native XSX app though and it was done 11months ago. Maybe that means something, maybe it doesn't, so it does not make much sense to draw any conclusions right now


The medium was missing ray tracing on PS5 though.
More info is needed from the dev, i see no reason to jump to any conclusions at this point.

They updated it with the raytracing a week later. Resolution is still higher on ps5

 

[dr guildo]

A rising tide lifts all boats...

 

[Lysandros]

This is a DF talking point, obviously people have caught on to it.

Exactly. Here is a very recent example of this prejudiced and narrow minded narrative:
"Typically, in the PC space, to get a faster GPU, manufacturers produce 'wider' designs that run at the same clocks as less capable parts - or even slower. Xbox Series X follows the same pattern. Its GPU runs at a slower clock, but should be more capable overall as it has many more compute units."

The Touryst is the first 8K 60fps game for PS5

Shin'en Multimedia's brilliant game - The Touryst - is now available for PS4 and PS5 consoles and it is now confirmed a…

www.eurogamer.net

 

[Sosokrates]

Did the developers said that?

I edited my post.

I just checked and it does say its optimised for series S/X.

 

[Zathalus]

Have you finished to talk as a MS PR? How many times we heard such talks by MS/AMD/Nvidia? Yeah probably direct X 12 will improve from this point of views immensely but expect it by XSX the same low access API of the ps5, with a multiplat environment kit, it's really naive. Coding abstraction doesn't allow it at all. Dedicated hardware coding it's another story.

Microsoft, Nvidia, and AMD have made the claim about low-level APIs only when talking about low-level APIs, such as DX12, Vulkan, and Mantle.

Obviously an API designed for multiplatform use is not going to be as efficient as one solely dedicated to a single console, but Microsoft did not simply install Windows, DX12 and regular drivers on its console. They specifically mentioned further optimization to the hardware level, going so far as to have the custom firmware, drivers, and DX12 API tightly integrated leading to it being much more efficient then on PC. Words they have directly stated.

Seriously, get a grip, pointing out that DX12 is a low-level API with specific optimizations on the XSX does not make me MS PR. Take the console warring stick out of your ass and try to learn something. Not everything has to revolve around which console is better, you made a claim and I pointed out that it was inaccurate. The way you go on and on about Sony on this forum would have anybody here believe you are directly employed by them.

You still refuse to believe it, despite me posting numerous links to evidence to back my claim up, including something stated by a leading Microsoft engineer. I'm 100% confident that if somebody was to make a claim that goes directly against what Mark Cerny said, then you would jump on the chance to point out that they are wrong. But should someone dare try to point out something positive about Microsoft then they are obviously Microsoft PR and you obviously can't trust what Microsoft engineers have to say. It's like trying to debate with someone in a cult.

 

[Sosokrates]

A rising tide lifts all boats...

Its an odd analogy, i mean, at what hieght is the tide best? There has to be an optimal tide level.

 

[Mufausa The 3rd]

Correct me if I am wrong. But I think Okami HD on PS3 did something similar where the game internally was rendering at 4K. Even though the PS3 is not capable of outputting anything above 1080p

 

[Fafalada]

I don't think that it's necessary to constantly repeat that the X1 had fewer of all of these units, when just saying that it had fewer CUs, does the same.

It doesn't though.
Eg: X1X more than tripled x1 CU count, but only doubled ROPs. (just for example), so it only has half the ROPs of eg. ps4pro.
Geometry throughput is not symmetrical to CUs either, it was a fixed per clock limit in GCN designs at least.
ACE count is orthogonal to CUs as well, bandwidth obviously is external, so ratio per CU varies, etc.

TMUs are part of CU block but even there possibility exists (though more remote) someone could customize it to a different ratio.

 

[MarkMe2525]

Deleted comment. Don't want to get involved in this convo.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Deleted comment. Don't want to get involved in this convo.

The devs did comment on it. Very much so.

People just can't accept it.

 

[Werewolfgrandma]

I edited my post.

I just checked and it does say its optimised for series S/X.

So does that recent tomb Raider game, and it runs quite literally exactly like the fps boost version. Optimized for sxs means nothing.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Optimized for sxs quite literally means nothing.

 

[Werewolfgrandma]

Flirt

 

[Gamerguy84]

Nice starting to roll out the 8K lineup.

 

[Sosokrates]

James franco is quite a good looking man.

 

[Mr Moose]

Yes 22% is higher then 6% and the the PS5 is better in comparison to the xsx then the x1 was to the ps4, however the touryst is not evidence of superior performance for the PS5 because its not an equal comparison, the ps5 version is a native version, on xsx its a modified xbox one BC game. The developer never said the xsx can not do the touryst in 8k.


PS5 having a resolution advantage seems unlikely because there are more xsx games which have a higher resolution.

Don't make things up.
It's a native Series X version not some BC game.

 

[Evilms]

Yes 22% is higher then 6% and the the PS5 is better in comparison to the xsx then the x1 was to the ps4, however the touryst is not evidence of superior performance for the PS5 because its not an equal comparison, the ps5 version is a native version, on xsx its a modified xbox one BC game. The developer never said the xsx can not do the touryst in 8k.


PS5 having a resolution advantage seems unlikely because there are more xsx games which have a higher resolution.

Pinocchio comes out of this body

 

[Werewolfgrandma]

Don't make things up.
It's a native Series X version not some BC game.

So is Shadow of the tomb Raider, but it's basically just a BC game.

 

[Mr Moose]

So is Shadow of the tomb Raider, but it's basically just a BC game.

Show me.

 

[assurdum]

Microsoft, Nvidia, and AMD have made the claim about low-level APIs only when talking about low-level APIs, such as DX12, Vulkan, and Mantle.

Obviously an API designed for multiplatform use is not going to be as efficient as one solely dedicated to a single console, but Microsoft did not simply install Windows, DX12 and regular drivers on its console. They specifically mentioned further optimization to the hardware level, going so far as to have the custom firmware, drivers, and DX12 API tightly integrated leading to it being much more efficient then on PC. Words they have directly stated.

Seriously, get a grip, pointing out that DX12 is a low-level API with specific optimizations on the XSX does not make me MS PR. Take the console warring stick out of your ass and try to learn something. Not everything has to revolve around which console is better, you made a claim and I pointed out that it was inaccurate. The way you go on and on about Sony on this forum would have anybody here believe you are directly employed by them.

You still refuse to believe it, despite me posting numerous links to evidence to back my claim up, including something stated by a leading Microsoft engineer. I'm 100% confident that if somebody was to make a claim that goes directly against what Mark Cerny said, then you would jump on the chance to point out that they are wrong. But should someone dare try to point out something positive about Microsoft then they are obviously Microsoft PR and you obviously can't trust what Microsoft engineers have to say. It's like trying to debate with someone in a cult.

WTH are you talking about? Where I have said we can't say anything of positive about MS? But more importantly why persist with this argument? Yes you act as a MS PR because such slides presentation are excessively optimistic for the most. Has anyone said MS hasn't any alternative for the low API access level solution with their virtual coding? But again did you have idea how virtual coding works? It can't be as a "true" low API coding, it's full of abstraction, MS AMD Nvidia can say whatever they want but work with multiplat level of coding can't be efficient as dedicate coding for a specific platform.

 

[Spitfire098]

I guess no one read the staff pinned note

 

[Werewolfgrandma]

Show me.

At the base level, Shadow of the Tomb Raider on Xbox Series consoles now enjoys an official 'optimised for Series X/S' patch label, suggesting a native app, while the upgrade is still flagged as a PlayStation 4 title when running on PS5. However, it's pretty clear that despite the new labelling on Xbox, the game is still running on the older XDK - it hasn't been ported to the new GDK and so doesn't tap into the more advanced features of the RDNA 2 GPU. We can ascertain this simply because the game looks and runs exactly as it did via Microsoft's FPS Boost upgrade: performance is identical, resolutions are the same - 2016p on Series X, 900p on Series S. The difference for Microsoft machines is that a progression bug introduced by FPS Boost is now addressed. In effect, FPS Boost is made official by Square-Enix and the bug is gone.

 

[Mr Moose]

At the base level, Shadow of the Tomb Raider on Xbox Series consoles now enjoys an official 'optimised for Series X/S' patch label, suggesting a native app, while the upgrade is still flagged as a PlayStation 4 title when running on PS5. However, it's pretty clear that despite the new labelling on Xbox, the game is still running on the older XDK - it hasn't been ported to the new GDK and so doesn't tap into the more advanced features of the RDNA 2 GPU. We can ascertain this simply because the game looks and runs exactly as it did via Microsoft's FPS Boost upgrade: performance is identical, resolutions are the same - 2016p on Series X, 900p on Series S. The difference for Microsoft machines is that a progression bug introduced by FPS Boost is now addressed. In effect, FPS Boost is made official by Square-Enix and the bug is gone.

Show me the screen like I posted for Tomb Raider.
Tomb Raider is a BC game and it won't say "Gen Scarlett" and "XboxGen9", Touryst is a native Series X game.

 

[Sosokrates]

They updated it with the raytracing a week later. Resolution is still higher on ps5

 

[assurdum]

Which means what exactly?

 

[Sosokrates]

Which means what exactly?

What do you think it means?

 

[Werewolfgrandma]

Show me the screen like I posted for Tomb Raider.
Tomb Raider is a BC game and it won't say "Gen Scarlett" and "XboxGen9", Touryst is a native Series X game.

I don't have a console or tomb Raider.