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Fighting Games Weekly | April 7-13 | Smash our expectations

D

Dahbomb

Member
But the game IS figured out....

Tech will emerge but people aren't going to stop using Zeros, Vergils, Dooms. At this point the only tech that would change things up are things that would probably get banned. Like that Spencer Wire grapple infinite.

Only thing that will change are the players most notably the players who are at the cusp like Apologyman and RayRay.
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Dahbomb said:
But the game IS figured out....

Tech will emerge but people aren't going to stop using Zeros, Vergils, Dooms. At this point the only tech that would change things up are things that would probably get banned. Like that Spencer Wire grapple infinite.

Only thing that will change are the players most notably the players who are at the cusp like Apologyman and RayRay.
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You didn't provide a single reason in the post why the game is figured out, you just described the current state of affairs. If it was figured out I would expect you to be telling us all about these El Gato glitches months ago, or maybe some practical exploits in the near future.

There's no good foundation for an argument saying the game is figured out based on results or the stream of tech we've seen recently. What it comes down to is people taking some consistent results and stretching them to fit an MvC2 scenario, basically.
 
P

Parallax Scroll

Banned
Kadey said:
Depends on what you have now but yeah. It definitely looks better in person and I customized mine fully to how I want it. I have access to everything on the fly. I really like fingerprint purchasing and stuff.
Click to expand...

I might get one too. my phone is ancient and I need to switch carriers anyway.
 
K

Kadey

Mrs. Harvey
Horseress said:
Is it that much better than the S4?
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I think it is. If you are using it for normal basic things probably not. The S4 is still considered very high end. Both of them are like the difference between a $300k and a $400k Ferrari.

I'm mad at myself for not backing up my game saves properly. Every single game I had on my S4 with a save is lost because my dumb ass forgot to back it up.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
The El Gato glitches are irrelevant, I don't even know why you brought them up if you knew how they were done. And I am not sure what "new tech" you have seen on stream lately.

The game is figured out in the sense that people are going to win by refining their play, not be figuring out some new tech. And no I am not talking about some year old tech that was debuted on stream by a player and the stream monsters start crediting the top player for figuring out "new tech".

The stuff to figure out is player tendencies... not character tiers/strengths. There is no hidden tech that is going to make Hsien Ko a competitive character just like there isn't going to be new tech that makes Vergil irrelevant.

Infinite said:
Well the game being figured out is different from all possible exploits, glitches, and tech being discovered.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

It's like saying "oh man that guy in pools was using Haggar/Doom/Strider with Vajra assist... that's some new tech! The game is far from being figured out!"
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Dahbomb said:
The El Gato glitches are irrelevant, I don't even know why you brought them up if you knew how they were done. And I am not sure what "new tech" you have seen on stream lately.

The game is figured out in the sense that people are going to win by refining their play, not be figuring out some new tech. And no I am not talking about some year old tech that was debuted on stream by a player and the stream monsters start crediting the top player for figuring out "new tech".

The stuff to figure out is player tendencies... not character tiers/strengths. There is no hidden tech that is going to make Hsien Ko a competitive character just like there isn't going to be new tech that makes Vergil irrelevant.


Exactly.

It's like saying "oh man that guy in pools was using Haggar/Doom/Strider with Vajra assist... that's some new tech! The game is far from being figured out!"
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Certain teams, if they become popular, can marginalize Vergil. For example, Firebrand teams destroy him since he has no real incoming options. I don't think the meta is done evolving, I just think that there is a lack of new blood and a lack of traveling to bring all of these changes together. Jan got 3rd at Texas Showdown with a goddamn Hulk team.
 
T

toddhunter

Member
Karsticles said:
Certain teams, if they become popular, can marginalize Vergil. For example, Firebrand teams destroy him since he has no real incoming options. I don't think the meta is done evolving, I just think that there is a lack of new blood and a lack of traveling to bring all of these changes together. Jan got 3rd at Texas Showdown with a goddamn Hulk team.
Click to expand...

That is the key. There might be more tech or changes to the meta game still in Marvel. But for somebody to have the skill and time to develop that tech so it actually overcomes the existing way to play, is increasingly unlikely.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Jan has been using that team for a while, it wasn't new tech.

Apologyman winning with Firebrand/Skrull isn't new tech, that's like first month of UMVC3 tech. Apologyman won the tournament because he had refined his neutral game and tactics... not because he was using new tech.

And neither is Cloud doing an impractical Dante combo on stream an example of "new tech".

Likewise, yes it's possible that a Thor team can place well or even win but that's not new tech. That's a player who has pushed the character (and himself) high enough and put him on the proper team.
 
F

Flying High

Member
Dahbomb said:
The El Gato glitches are irrelevant, I don't even know why you brought them up if you knew how they were done. And I am not sure what "new tech" you have seen on stream lately.

The game is figured out in the sense that people are going to win by refining their play, not be figuring out some new tech. And no I am not talking about some year old tech that was debuted on stream by a player and the stream monsters start crediting the top player for figuring out "new tech".

The stuff to figure out is player tendencies... not character tiers/strengths. There is no hidden tech that is going to make Hsien Ko a competitive character just like there isn't going to be new tech that makes Vergil irrelevant.
Click to expand...

The only thing is going to change the game are the mid-tier/under used characters in the game, after a while people are going to make sure they counterpick the Morg/Doom shells after someone finds a good team to beat them out. Or find the one character that can stop Zero(Besides himself)

Also Thor, Jill, Viewiful Joe, and Trish might be finally starting to see more getting used finally, but, we will finally see more Firebrand, Rocket Racoons, Super Skrull, and MODOK getting seen, and it MIGHT change the metagame a bit(Not the Zero, Doom, Vergil metagame, that is here to stay)

Also, I do believe someone might find the best Phoenix Wright team, and make him almost guaranteed to get turnabout mode every game(But it will be found out one month after MVC4 gets released)
 
P

Parallax Scroll

Banned
Dahbomb said:
The game is figured out in the sense that people are going to win by refining their play, not be figuring out some new tech. And no I am not talking about some year old tech that was debuted on stream by a player and the stream monsters start crediting the top player for figuring out "new tech".
Click to expand...

Players deserve credit for applying new tech and using it to win tournaments, even if they didn't create it. The game doesn't begin and end in training mode.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Dahbomb said:
Jan has been using that team for a while, it wasn't new tech.

Apologyman winning with Firebrand/Skrull isn't new tech, that's like first month of UMVC3 tech. Apologyman won the tournament because he had refined his neutral game and tactics... not because he was using new tech.

And neither is Cloud doing an impractical Dante combo on stream an example of "new tech".

Likewise, yes it's possible that a Thor team can place well or even win but that's not new tech. That's a player who has pushed the character (and himself) high enough and put him on the proper team.
Click to expand...
I don't think tech is the only thing that determines whether a game is figured out. If players are still learning how to handle matchups in high level play, the game is still being figured out. Thus, Jan represents the game not being figured out. I believe this is the first major we saw Jan use Shuma-Gorath.

Anyway, my point is mainly that new and strong team formations demonstrate fluidity in the game, and that there is still stuff to learn.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Parallax Scroll said:
Players deserve credit for applying new tech and using it to win tournaments, even if they didn't create it. The game doesn't begin and end in training mode.
Click to expand...
It's still not new tech.

Players should be credited for using old tech in high level situation but they should not be credited for coming up with something that they didn't.

Like Apologyman should be credited for pushing FB/Skrull as high as he did but he should not be credited for coming up with "new tech" involving the unblockable.
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Infinite said:
Well the game being figured out is different from all possible exploits, glitches, and tech being discovered.
Click to expand...
So the former is an arbitrary landmark for stability at a certain point in the metagame, that becomes irrelevant when an exploit, glitch or new tech that is practical or gamechanging is discovered?

Sounds like a useless measure/term for anything.

toddhunter said:
That is the key. There might be more tech or changes to the meta game still in Marvel. But for somebody to have the skill and time to develop that tech so it actually overcomes the existing way to play, is increasingly unlikely.
Click to expand...
Such is the case from Day 1 onwards.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Karsticles said:
I don't think tech is the only thing that determines whether a game is figured out. If players are still learning how to handle matchups in high level play, the game is still being figured out. Thus, Jan represents the game not being figured out. I believe this is the first major we saw Jan use Shuma-Gorath.

Anyway, my point is mainly that new and strong team formations demonstrate fluidity in the game, and that there is still stuff to learn.
Click to expand...
Jan was using Shuma at Final Round and that was just the major before Texas Showdown! And he has been using Shuma before that too.
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Karsticles said:
I don't think tech is the only thing that determines whether a game is figured out. If players are still learning how to handle matchups in high level play, the game is still being figured out. Thus, Jan represents the game not being figured out. I believe this is the first major we saw Jan use Shuma-Gorath.

Anyway, my point is mainly that new and strong team formations demonstrate fluidity in the game, and that there is still stuff to learn.
Click to expand...
Cosigned.

I also agree with Parallax, we constantly see stuff that was discovered a long time ago or thought impractical applied and combined with other tech/combos constantly. Dahbomb is usually quick to call out stuff as old once we finally see it being used consistently as well lol
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
enzo_gt said:
Cosigned.

I also agree with Parallax, we constantly see stuff that was discovered a long time ago or thought impractical applied and combined with other tech/combos constantly. Dahbomb is usually quick to call out stuff as old once we finally see it being used consistently as well lol
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I am calling it right now..

Someone in the near future is going to blow it up with a Cap/Vergil/Strider team and people will say "oh man he made Cap viable... Dat new tech!"

And I will be there to say it's not new tech because people have known about this team and why it's good for quite some time.

Knowledge in the game varies among players. If tomorrow FChamp gets opened up by a mix up he has never seen before that's not new tech... that's FChamp not knowing about the mix up and thus a user error.

If that is the criteria people are using for "game is figured out" then I will say that the game will NEVER be figured out. It's not humanly possible to be aware of every set up of every team combination in the game or every possible combo attack or every glitch even. In that sense MVC2 was never figured out as well.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
Dahbomb said:
Jan was using Shuma at Final Round and that was just the major before Texas Showdown! And he has been using Shuma before that too.
Click to expand...
But did he place with it? Placing with the team demonstrates the new meta, and thus that the game has not been figured out.

Edit: we just have a fundamental disagreement. You think "figured out" refers to theoretical knowledge. I think it refers to practical knowledge.
 
B

Beckx

Member
Vector Strike tournament is running late apparently.

DEk19za.jpg
 
F

Flying High

Member
Here is to when Chris G gets beaten by Thor/Strange/Doom or Thor/Strange/Ammy(Basically Anti Morg/Doom team(In THEORY) people will calling that new tech!
 
E

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Karsticles said:
Edit: we just have a fundamental disagreement. You think "figured out" refers to theoretical knowledge. I think it refers to practical knowledge.
Click to expand...
Gonna have to go with Karst again.

I don't agree with the weight you put on possibilities existing vs. their application in the metagame. It doesn't necessarily have to be a gimmick either.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Yeah I see we have a fundamental difference on the idea so I will drop it for now.


PRRog vs Nemo? PRRog fed up after losing in AE that he has to assert his dominance in another game to compensate. Let's see how that runback goes (predicting closer score than before but Nemo puling out a win).
 
T

toddhunter

Member
enzo_gt said:
Such is the case from Day 1 onwards.
Click to expand...

Not really. From Day 1 onwards it is actually increasingly likely that new tech will be discovered as more and more people start exploring the game.

Then it finally reaches a point where the player base declines (in numbers and/or skill) or any useful tech is figured out and anything left is more theoretical.
 
R

Rice-Eater

Member
When you have 8 of the best players in the world in a certain game competing in a format like this, someone was going to come out of this looking bad. During Topanga Asia, Poongko finished last at 1-6. Right now it's PR Rog and Infiltration who are looking pretty bad right now. And just two years ago Infiltration looked unstoppable outside of facing top Cammy players.

I think PR Rog's salt is just that, salt. He did the same thing during last years EVO(or 2012?) when several Americans were venting about their character not being good enough to win. Unlike everybody else, he did actually switch to a different character and stuck with him for a little while. But eventually he came back to Balrog and in the end I think he'll still main Balrog after doing some soul searching.
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
saturday is my favorite day of the week. hope everyone here has the privilege of enjoying an offline scene.
 
A

ArclightBorealis

Member
oneida said:
saturday is my favorite day of the week. hope everyone here has the privilege of enjoying an offline scene.
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Playing BlazBlue and other fighting games with people offline on Thursdays have been great for me, though because it's a school club thing, it'll be done once the semester's over in two weeks.
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
ArclightBorealis said:
Playing BlazBlue and other fighting games with people offline on Thursdays have been great for me, though because it's a school club thing, it'll be done once the semester's over in two weeks.
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Yup I'm headed back home the second week of May :( the VF scene is actually "better" in MA - "better" in that there are more strong players, but actually worse because they don't fucking show up to fight nights. If they make it down, I'm gonna have a kickass summer.
 
B

BakedYams

Slayer of Combofiends
Kadey said:
Depends on what you have now but yeah. It definitely looks better in person and I customized mine fully to how I want it. I have access to everything on the fly. I really like fingerprint purchasing and stuff.
Click to expand...

I got an iPhone 4, not the 4S, so I'm looking to upgrade to something that runs a lot better with streams/games/etc. My only worry is that if I ever drop it, will it break indefinitely? I've seen the S4 and its nice and all, but it looks like even touching it would break it.

Dahbomb said:
Yeah I see we have a fundamental difference on the idea so I will drop it for now.


PRRog vs Nemo? PRRog fed up after losing in AE that he has to assert his dominance in another game to compensate. Let's see how that runback goes (predicting closer score than before but Nemo puling out a win).
Click to expand...

When is that stream gonna happen? Been preparing for it.

oneida said:
saturday is my favorite day of the week. hope everyone here has the privilege of enjoying an offline scene.
Click to expand...

Same here. You can enjoy your time lag-free and level up pretty well. Faced a pro Cammy player and learned my place only to realize that Cammy is brain dead.
 
A

ArclightBorealis

Member
oneida said:
Yup I'm headed back home the second week of May :( the VF scene is actually "better" in MA - "better" in that there are more strong players, but actually worse because they don't fucking show up to fight nights. If they make it down, I'm gonna have a kickass summer.
Click to expand...
Gotta savor it while it lasts. My only regret is that I didn't get those guys to play more VF than the one time someone brought it in because I requested it. Instead they got me into playing BlazBlue, which isn't that bad I guess, it's a pretty fun game.
I'd have even less chance of convincing them to play some DOA5, but I think I'd only want to do that just to piss them off with Marie Rose.
 
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