Tye The Czar
Member
You're right! I meant to say they were refinements of existing mechanics found in WRPGs.
I'm still mad that CT's refinements never fully caught on though.
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Final Fantasy VI isn't really impressing? Has Chrono Trigger ruined JRPGs for me?
- Thread starter Stopdoor
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You're right! I meant to say they were refinements of existing mechanics found in WRPGs.
I'm still mad that CT's refinements never fully caught on though.
Drillary Clinton
Banned
Stay away from Balthier's penis and you should be good again.
Uncalled for.
I don't think she found that to be her calling so much as just her connecting to the good in humanity after what was done to her people.
After all, she doesn't decide to embrace the mother role in the end, she ends up going off to be the warrior badass she needed to be. THAT was her calling.
encephalon
Member
I think you're a little off here. Terra leaves the children because by rejoining the fight against Kefka she is protecting them.
Sure but that's not a "mother" role. The role of protector and warrior is stereotypical of fathers. I don't see why her going off to fight to protect them means she's fulfilling a motherly child rearing role.
It seems like your issue was with them giving her feminized role, yeah?
Well, having a party member who actually don't want to fight ever whatever the reason with absolutely no way to make him/her changes his/her mind would actually be so strange i would have found it very original and cool albeit very cruel. I think a lot of people would not accept this kind of outcome. So, even if the writer totally wanted for her to be a "woman" by taking care of the children, she would still rejoin your party at the end... For a reason like "protecting the children" for exemple... (Badass Mom trope) So no it's not a good reason.
I think the dialog she has with Kefka about how it is important, each day, to celebrate one more day of life show way more of her badass side for exemple.
Personally, i take that kind of criticism the other way around, i would love for a male character to have something as complex as taking care of children but usually it's female character who have this kind of stuff... Too bad. This is why i tend to prefer female character story arc, So even if i regret deeply that gender is so prevalent, i wouldn't like if the way to correct it was to make female "like badass men". I would prefer to have men "like caring woman" and i feel like people are way less ready for that...
That being said, it's actually a total different topic
It's a good game but don't worry if you don't like it. As someone who loves jrpgs I have never actually beat it. I've tried on probably 4 different saves and something sidetracks me each time and I never finish. I thought for sure the last time I would finish but my save was deleted and I just said screw it.
Man that lady is everywhere!
You get a model airship and you get a model airship! Everyone gets a model airship!
encephalon
Member
I'm pretty sure "when forced to, a mother will fight to protect her children" is a trope. It's infamously present in FFXIII, which references some old Japanese ... proverb (?) that claims "women are weak, but mothers are strong." I also don't think that it's true that "mothers are not portrayed as protectors" in media.
I have mixed feelings about her development. In a vacuum it's fine and perhaps even noble, but in the context of a highly gendered society ...
Novel Mike
Member
Honestly I can't take any of the FF6 hate in this thread seriously since its all drive by posts saying 'NAH MAN FF6 JUST SUCKS' over and and over again. I mean if you really don't like it do what the op did and explain why.
Also in general I think the use of a game 'not holding up' is extremely overused at this point. I mean you can literally say that about anything without context to justify whatever you personally feel but if you actually believe that you should be able to explain it in detail and debate with anyone else about it.
Thanks for that, fixed.
Also in general I think the use of a game 'not holding up' is extremely overused at this point. I mean you can literally say that about anything without context to justify whatever you personally feel but if you actually believe that you should be able to explain it in detail and debate with anyone else about it.
Thanks for that, fixed.
FFVI appreciation over the ages show perfectly why video game can't really be considered as art. People trying to judge it with cold facts and criterias..
When it's so above all that it's not even funny.
That's like saying i don't know, Murnau's Aurora can't really compare to more modern movies special effects, have no dialog and its characters are too simply written.. really.
When it's so above all that it's not even funny.
That's like saying i don't know, Murnau's Aurora can't really compare to more modern movies special effects, have no dialog and its characters are too simply written.. really.
It's true I might be slightly ruined in that the whole "Kefka destroys the world" was long telegraphed to me, so there wasn't much of a twist. But it's not hidden too deeply, considering he gets more screentime and is literally in the logo.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
CT deals with the same themes as FFVI, but it's less overt about them and as you said generally more optimistic.
For example a lot of people who played the game don't realize why the robots are committing genocide on the humans in the future.
They're using them because they need a power source.
Novel Mike
Member
CT deals with the same themes as FFVI, but it's less overt about them and as you said generally more optimistic.
For example a lot of people who played the game don't realize why the robots are committing genocide on the humans in the future.
They're using them because they need a power source.
Yeah that is very true. I think what brings all those themes to the forefront in FF6 is Kefka himself, he is the one who does all of those horrible times and gets away with it for a good majority of the game.
I started playing it recently too (SNES version on the Wii Virtual Console) and I think it's OK, but I am struggling to follow the story (That happens a lot to me because of my short attention span when watching movies, TV shows or game cutscenes) and I think the combat coupled with the kind of high encounter rate is kind of annoying sometimes. I am up to the part where you meet Setzer for the first time and I've found it very easy, I can just spam AutoCrossbow or Fire Dance, and win.
So far though, I don't think it has aged badly. There are a surprising about of nice convenient things in the menus such as equipping your characters with optimum gear, organising items just by pressing the organise button, and the wide plethora of options. I also really like how well the menus are laid out. There just isn't that much here that stands out to me, though; I guess it seems a little generic by today's standards, at least to me. Maybe that will change later though. I understand that it was probably amazing in 1994 though. Kind of like how in 20 years someone might play Horizon Zero Dawn and be unimpressed by it. The game is compelling enough for me though, so I still want to continue playing, though I don't know if I can guarantee that I'll be interested enough to finish it.
I am glad I'm playing the SNES version and not the PC version though, I like the sprite art in the SNES version much more. I didn't play the PS1 version because apparently it has bad loading times, and the GBA version was a bit too expensive for me, and I don't like emulating games.
So far though, I don't think it has aged badly. There are a surprising about of nice convenient things in the menus such as equipping your characters with optimum gear, organising items just by pressing the organise button, and the wide plethora of options. I also really like how well the menus are laid out. There just isn't that much here that stands out to me, though; I guess it seems a little generic by today's standards, at least to me. Maybe that will change later though. I understand that it was probably amazing in 1994 though. Kind of like how in 20 years someone might play Horizon Zero Dawn and be unimpressed by it. The game is compelling enough for me though, so I still want to continue playing, though I don't know if I can guarantee that I'll be interested enough to finish it.
I am glad I'm playing the SNES version and not the PC version though, I like the sprite art in the SNES version much more. I didn't play the PS1 version because apparently it has bad loading times, and the GBA version was a bit too expensive for me, and I don't like emulating games.
Waste of a character?? My nigga had the best ability in the whole game. JUMP. lol.
BasilZero
Member
FF6 and CT are two of my most favorite RPGs.
Others being FF9, FF4, FF7 and FF10
Anyways, i played both FF6 and CT about 10 times across all versions (SNES, PS1, GBA, NDS, etc)
I've yet to play FFVI on Steam/PC - I do have it though, hopefully they release the updated ver on Steam/PC just like FFVI.
Others being FF9, FF4, FF7 and FF10
Anyways, i played both FF6 and CT about 10 times across all versions (SNES, PS1, GBA, NDS, etc)
I've yet to play FFVI on Steam/PC - I do have it though, hopefully they release the updated ver on Steam/PC just like FFVI.
Box of Kittens
Banned
I like Final Fantasy VI, but in no way does it live up to the hype (frankly, no game can live up to that level of hype).
For perspective, I played both FFVI (or FFIII as it was known at the time) and CT when they were released. After playing both on SNES I would have said FFVI was the better game. Years later I revisited both games and concluded CT was the superior game. You could say CT aged better I guess in that the things that made FFVI so groundbreaking at the time have generally been done better in more recent games, whereas to me CT appeals less because it does anything new as much as it just does everything it sets out to do very well and with a lot of polish.
OP, your suspicion that you're missing a lot with the gameplay systems is correct, but honestly that's because the game's systems are kind of a mess (I'm not saying the gameplay is bad mind you, just, well, a bit messy). Gau's abilities are actually very powerful, but you either need to do a ton of experimentation or use a guide to even unlock a fraction of his potential, especially if you want to go beyond just powerful attacks and into his defensive capabilities. You're not missing anything with Cyan though, he just sucks. Espers likewise are a big deal because, in addition to the Magic command being super powerful in this game, they're the only way to raise your character's stats at level up (without an Esper equipped only their HP and MP will increase). Unfortunately the various functions of Espers (learning magic, increasing stats, powerful attacks) all kinda clash with each other, and the way Espers raise your stats isn't well thought out at all. There are a lot of interesting aspects of the gameplay, but they also tend to be pretty ignorable especially late in the game when you can get by nearly every battle by just spamming your most powerful spells.
On the other hand, Chrono Trigger's gameplay systems are all very straightforward, but it feels like the game does everything it possibly could with those systems. It's very easy to pick up and play and you don't feel like there's something you're missing about it, but there's still a surprising amount of depth and the developers did a good job of coming up with creative ideas for battles to fight. My only real complaint is that the game is too easy, but that complaint would apply to FFVI as well.
Regarding the discussion of the stories of the respective games, I'd say that the difference for me is less one of tone than of emphasis. FFVI is very much a character driven story. Almost everything that happens in the game flows from the characters in some way. Indeed, the entire second half of the game very little plot development occurs, instead you spend that half of the game finishing off character arcs that were kicked off in the first half. In contrast, the characters in CT tend to be pretty one note. For example, Lucca has very few lines of dialog that aren't either straight exposition or something about science and inventions. You can go through the rest of the party and each character can be pretty well summed up in a couple of sentences. The most dynamic characters in the game actually tend to be NPCs, but even then those characters don't tend to have as much depth as the ones in FFVI. The difference between Kefka and Lavos as villains has already been discussed in depth here so I have nothing to add on that front.
On the other hand, CT places a lot more emphasis on its setting and in particular the way in which important plot points and background are slowly revealed to you as you travel back and forth between the time periods. On the note of settings, I've always found Chrono Trigger's version of a post-apocalyptic world to be a lot more believable than FFVI's. Like to me CT really does feel like a wasteland, while in FFVI it kinda feels like they stop trying after early on. Like you start out on the island and obviously things are bad there, and early on you're introduced to the town that gets attacked by Kefka while you're there and the other one that's been devastated, but after that almost everywhere you go people are more or less carrying on just as they did before. Now I get that on some level FFVI can't show as much devastation as CT, since the former is about how people will rebuild while the goal in the latter is to prevent the apocalypse from ever happening, but still the World of Ruin rings false to me.
Anyway, long story short, I do think FFVI is good, but at the same time overrated, and that CT is the better game overall.
For perspective, I played both FFVI (or FFIII as it was known at the time) and CT when they were released. After playing both on SNES I would have said FFVI was the better game. Years later I revisited both games and concluded CT was the superior game. You could say CT aged better I guess in that the things that made FFVI so groundbreaking at the time have generally been done better in more recent games, whereas to me CT appeals less because it does anything new as much as it just does everything it sets out to do very well and with a lot of polish.
OP, your suspicion that you're missing a lot with the gameplay systems is correct, but honestly that's because the game's systems are kind of a mess (I'm not saying the gameplay is bad mind you, just, well, a bit messy). Gau's abilities are actually very powerful, but you either need to do a ton of experimentation or use a guide to even unlock a fraction of his potential, especially if you want to go beyond just powerful attacks and into his defensive capabilities. You're not missing anything with Cyan though, he just sucks. Espers likewise are a big deal because, in addition to the Magic command being super powerful in this game, they're the only way to raise your character's stats at level up (without an Esper equipped only their HP and MP will increase). Unfortunately the various functions of Espers (learning magic, increasing stats, powerful attacks) all kinda clash with each other, and the way Espers raise your stats isn't well thought out at all. There are a lot of interesting aspects of the gameplay, but they also tend to be pretty ignorable especially late in the game when you can get by nearly every battle by just spamming your most powerful spells.
On the other hand, Chrono Trigger's gameplay systems are all very straightforward, but it feels like the game does everything it possibly could with those systems. It's very easy to pick up and play and you don't feel like there's something you're missing about it, but there's still a surprising amount of depth and the developers did a good job of coming up with creative ideas for battles to fight. My only real complaint is that the game is too easy, but that complaint would apply to FFVI as well.
Regarding the discussion of the stories of the respective games, I'd say that the difference for me is less one of tone than of emphasis. FFVI is very much a character driven story. Almost everything that happens in the game flows from the characters in some way. Indeed, the entire second half of the game very little plot development occurs, instead you spend that half of the game finishing off character arcs that were kicked off in the first half. In contrast, the characters in CT tend to be pretty one note. For example, Lucca has very few lines of dialog that aren't either straight exposition or something about science and inventions. You can go through the rest of the party and each character can be pretty well summed up in a couple of sentences. The most dynamic characters in the game actually tend to be NPCs, but even then those characters don't tend to have as much depth as the ones in FFVI. The difference between Kefka and Lavos as villains has already been discussed in depth here so I have nothing to add on that front.
On the other hand, CT places a lot more emphasis on its setting and in particular the way in which important plot points and background are slowly revealed to you as you travel back and forth between the time periods. On the note of settings, I've always found Chrono Trigger's version of a post-apocalyptic world to be a lot more believable than FFVI's. Like to me CT really does feel like a wasteland, while in FFVI it kinda feels like they stop trying after early on. Like you start out on the island and obviously things are bad there, and early on you're introduced to the town that gets attacked by Kefka while you're there and the other one that's been devastated, but after that almost everywhere you go people are more or less carrying on just as they did before. Now I get that on some level FFVI can't show as much devastation as CT, since the former is about how people will rebuild while the goal in the latter is to prevent the apocalypse from ever happening, but still the World of Ruin rings false to me.
Anyway, long story short, I do think FFVI is good, but at the same time overrated, and that CT is the better game overall.
I like them both quite a bit, but I've never finished FFVI despite restarting a bunch of times over the years. I think CTs pacing is just off the charts which helps make the game.
Kefka is such an asshole. It's so interesting to me that the game keeps playing him up as comedic relief while he's doing fucked up stuff in the process. I remember thinking "are these supposed to be funny scenes?" whenever Kefka loudly complains about getting sand in his boots and his cronies trip over themselves to fix it, but then he goes on to do something terrible right afterwards. Like, you can kinda laugh at him getting tripped up but then he just keeps going. He wasn't impeded by any of these "gags" whatsoever and just kept working his way up becoming more and more monstrous. It was a weird feeling and somewhat distressing and you definitely get the sense that he knows a lot more than he lets on.
Kefka is such an asshole. It's so interesting to me that the game keeps playing him up as comedic relief while he's doing fucked up stuff in the process. I remember thinking "are these supposed to be funny scenes?" whenever Kefka loudly complains about getting sand in his boots and his cronies trip over themselves to fix it, but then he goes on to do something terrible right afterwards. Like, you can kinda laugh at him getting tripped up but then he just keeps going. He wasn't impeded by any of these "gags" whatsoever and just kept working his way up becoming more and more monstrous. It was a weird feeling and somewhat distressing and you definitely get the sense that he knows a lot more than he lets on.
GreenMonkey
Member
I kind of agree with a lot of your post, but maybe not the end here.
Look at folks in Syria, or Iraq after the U.S. invasion.
A lot of folks still trying to live their lives normally, despite the warzone and complete destruction around them. I mean, have you seen some of the video / photos of various cities in Syria?
Yet there are still folks there trying to survive day-to-day. Raising their kids, working, etc.
There's something to be said for the FF6 approach.
Box of Kittens
Banned
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the way it comes across to me is that it feels like for the majority of the world's residents, the destruction of the world hasn't affected them at all.
Lucky Seven
Banned
I played through VI on shitty Ipod Touch 4 emulation. I couldn't listen to the soundtrack, and the battery drained quick. I wanna say it was the best FF experience I ever had, but it really isn't that memorable outside of a couple wacky boss fights. It's quirkiness stands out, as well as some interesting party member back stories, and seeing in-game secrets, but playing through the game itself was just not interesting.
I had the most fun playing IV. Simplicity really means a lot in RPG's in giving the best gameplay experience.
I had the most fun playing IV. Simplicity really means a lot in RPG's in giving the best gameplay experience.
Final Fantasy VI isn't as good as people say. The game has been surpassed plenty of times by other games in the series but don't tell that to people who haven't played many JRPGs since that game came out because they'll just say you're wrong despite that fact that it's obvious they haven't played many JRPGs in recent years.
The esper system is complete trash which makes everything character exactly the same which is a huge disappointment considering this game came after IV and V which made every character unique. However, this doesn't matter much because the game is easy as sin. You can literally rush through the game spamming the same few attacks and spells. There's barely any reason to use debuffs.
The characters are great but the story takes a huge dive towards the end because the World of Ruin is garbage. Most of the story completely disappears because the "open-ended" clashes with storytelling.
I don't have VI anywhere near my top 5. FFVII, FFIX, and FFX are vastly superior experiences. FFIV DS is the superior 16-bit FF experience anyways.
The esper system is complete trash which makes everything character exactly the same which is a huge disappointment considering this game came after IV and V which made every character unique. However, this doesn't matter much because the game is easy as sin. You can literally rush through the game spamming the same few attacks and spells. There's barely any reason to use debuffs.
The characters are great but the story takes a huge dive towards the end because the World of Ruin is garbage. Most of the story completely disappears because the "open-ended" clashes with storytelling.
I don't have VI anywhere near my top 5. FFVII, FFIX, and FFX are vastly superior experiences. FFIV DS is the superior 16-bit FF experience anyways.
D
Deleted member 125677
Unconfirmed Member
Well for starters becuse it is a zero content claim? "Leagues ahead" and "I had way more fun with" don't give you much to roll with for any meaningful discussion.
GreenMonkey
Member
I'm really a Dragon Quest kinda guy. But...
Personally I gave up on FF after X (which was sooooo easy. I died once to one of the random status effect monsters. And I hate grinding, so it isn't like I overleveled).
World of Ruin stories are good. They are just character driven vs plot driven.
FF6's biggest flaw is the endgame though. Espers needed some restrictions. Everyone with cure3 and big damage spells breaks the endgame and makes everyone like the same. FF7 suffers from this also.
I get the love for FF9, but 6 is great until near the end of the game when the battle system falls apart. Gau is OP. Everyone with everything. Cyan's swordtech gets to be useless (too long to charge). Etc. Still, the narrative and the rest of the game is good still.
And what's so bad about such stereotype? Historically, men fight wars and do heavy labor while women raise children. That's the way it is because men are naturally stronger. In modern age when most people don't do heavy labor, such stereotype does not apply, but then again, FFVI is not set in modern age.
Novel Mike
Member
Lol what a loaded statement. Alright I'll bite.
First off many of us who think FFVI is a masterpiece don't think so because we "haven't played many JRPG's in recent years." I've played plenty both then and now and any time in between. Just because you don't care for it as much as others doesn't mean that everyone else doesn't have better RPG experience then you do, as if thats a thing.
The esper system doesn't make every character the exact same, how could it when the defining in battle trait of each character isn't magic but their own unique abilities. Edgar's tools, Sabin's Blitz's, Gau's... everything. The only thing that makes the characters the same is that they can all draw from the same pool of Magic which is something that many RPG's do including FF5, 7, 10, ect. So yeah no idea where you ever got that idea but moving on. Yeah the game can be easy, that is a fair statement but so is FF4, FF5, FF7, FF8, pretty much almost every FF game none of them are remotely challenging and even if some have certain parts that are a simple grind session can move everything along rather quickly. Frankly the game does have a somewhat high encounter rate so I actually enjoy that battles are made simple if you have the right characters/abilities to make them go fairly quickly.
I don't see how you think the story takes a nose dive in the WoR. Going to spoiler tag this for the OP but...
You have Terra's arc coming to a head and her finding a purpose, Setzers backstory, Strego's backstory, Cyan's dreams, Edgar's deception, Locke finally reviving Rachel, Celes trying to save Cid and attempting to kill herself, ect.
Interesting first reply.
Gameplay-wise, Final Fantasy V is better than Final Fantasy VI, there is no doubt about it. Final Fantasy VI has a better story though.
Chrono Trigger has a simpler gameplay, but very effective and fun nonetheless. Once again, the story is better.
Purely from a gameplay perspective, Final Fantasy V is better (or equal) to Chrono Trigger. Both are better than Final Fantasy VI.
From a story perspective, Chrono Trigger beats them both (although it is highly subjective of course, and some may prefer Final Fantasy VI to it).
From a 16 bits Super Nes graphical perspective, Chrono Trigger is probably the most beautiful, followed by Final Fantasy VI, with Final Fantasy V dead last.
More people are actually playing it.
Magicpaint
Member
People don't like WoR because they usually prefer linear storytelling. It's like in DQ series - the most popular games are the ones that lead you along with a guiding plot thread and any game in the series that requires you to actually explore to uncover the story are less adored. I usually think the opposite because the latter approach fits the interactive nature of videogames better. I think I am the only person who loves FFVI that actually prefers the WoR. I do like the challenge of being thrown into a post apocalyptic world and figuring out how to band together your former party members. I like that I am not simply led to them via hand-holding but rather I 'stumble' upon them and I am rewarded with story beats that shed more light on the characters as regards to their past and present predicament. I feel the way the WoR is structured makes sense: it's a ruined, broken world and you're neither here nor there. Things should be not handed to you on a plate. You have to work for it.
Now there are limitations to this approach with the way dialogue is handled because the game couldn't account for how many characters you might have at any give point so it hands out generic lines to the characters or none at all. However, it's something that was a technological limitation more than anything and it would be nice to address that in a remake, along with the kind of gameplay balancing FFIV got with the DS remake. I wouldn't hold my breath though. Square Enix doesn't make games like FFVI anymore.
This is my take as well. These games get put on such an unreasonably high pedestal that I actually don't mind seeing people with different perspectives voicing their opinions against them. And I say that as someone who has CT in his top 5, and VI is very high as well.
I don't agree ffvi is still one of the best rpg even now. It's aged fine.
Well that's not a good excuse. It's like the people that say ff ix is anywhere near the best ff. You think they are out of their mind.
Anyway chrono trigger is up there with ffvi. It really just depends on the day. Both are two of the best games ever.
crisdecuba
Member
I played on the SNES and had no problem figuring out who's menu was open. And the active timer made it enjoyable because it keeps you focused and increases the tension in the more difficult battles. Overall I find the battle system easy and responsive (again, on the snes).
My immediate thought is that you sound overwhelmed. What Magic attacks were you trying that missed so much? Generally you should just keep in mind that magic attacks like doom or x-zone (that get rid of an enemy altogether) are more likely to miss especially on bosses. I personally never bothered with Gau or Relm and the game doesn't force you to. I'm not sure why you're having a problem remembering Cyan's attacks - they're pretty effective and worth using. Same goes for Sabin with the added bonus of street fighter style commands. It makes each character more interesting when they each have a different specialty. (And the last technique for Sabin is just awesome.) Overall it sounds like you have trouble remembering things. I had no problem with it when I played through it. Espers are easy - they each have different attacks, and if you equip them they cause you to learn spells and increase your stats. It's pretty straightforward and interesting because they each have a different attack. No "recipe" that you need to follow to the letter.
Yeah that's fair criticism. I will say, though, that the battle backgrounds were rather impressive at the time in the level of detail and sometimes their photo realism. And the enemy art is still impressive to me.
What dramatic beat did the ultros fight ruin? Nothing of real consequence was happening with the characters - they were just playing out the plot of the opera. Why would there need to be conflict for setzer to join the party? And why are you feeling like "what" when you just got a freakin airship to explore the entire world with???
Aside from the mismatch you perceive between the overworld and battle music, what else did you find bizarre? I found more of chrono triggers music to be forgettable by comparison.
How does the cid scene (a completely different scene and a proper span of time to slow things down a bit after, you know, the destruction of the world) spoil the spectacle of what came before?
Sounds like you like / need a lot more guidance in your games...
On my first playtrough i noticed that feeding him the slower fish (that were easier to catch anyway) made him change what he was saying, so I kept doing that until he passed away. And then in my second walk through I realized I could save him too. It was neat. what I didn't like was that once I figured out the type of fish I wanted to give him, I would have to "reset" the fish if the kind I was looking for wasn't there.Its funny you say that because FF6 was my first rpg and chrono trigger was my second. I enjoyed CT, but overall it felt less epic, more cartoonish, and less dramatic. Kind of the opposite of you so maybe our "first" becomes our favorite.
The story in CT is also highly overrated and just a nostalgia magnet for most gamers. Nice game but was nowhere near as cool as I was expecting when I played it a couple years ago.
I'd say the bit of FF6 I played was better overall. I really wish the translations were better for both games.
I think I quit FF6 because of the weird victory animations that were killing me inside.
Professor Beef
Banned
it was better than having her mope through the fucking game, jesus christ that was annoying
Box of Kittens
Banned
Yeah I think saying that the Esper system makes ever character the same is not really a fair complaint. Yeah (almost) every character can learn every spell but you'd have to do a good amount of grinding to do so and it's not really worth the effort. I think such a complaint makes far more sense when directed at FFVII's Materia system.
That having been said, the Esper system is trash and I, in fact, actually like the Materia system better despite the aforementioned problem. The biggest problem I have with the Esper system is the way in which its uses clash. Espers perform three basic functions:
1) You can use them in battle to perform summon attacks.
2) They teach magic spells.
3) They act as a mechanism to customize stat growth (in fact, it is the only way to raise stats other than HP and MP).
Summons can be tactically interesting, but between having such overpowered characters (for all the talk of Sabin being overpowered, and he is, he's still pretty much middle of the pack among FFVI characters if you have good setups) and so many choices with equipment and relics that you don't run into many situations where summons solve a problem that can't be easily solved some other way, effectively meaning (1) can be a non-factor when choosing which Espers to equip.
That leaves us to (2) and (3), and in particular the problems that flow from the particularly horrible implementation of (3). The problem is that there are only a small handful of Espers you'd actually want to have equipped when leveling up at any given time. Many don't raise any stats at all or raise stats that aren't very important (Stamina is the most obvious example, especially in the original version where it's bugged to have positive and negative effects, it's also so easy to restore MP that boosting your MP growth really isn't worth the opportunity cost). And in other cases some options are strictly superior to others (why raise Magic Power by 1 when you can raise it by 2?). This leaves the player with several options.
A) Equip espers for learning magic and accept that your characters will have mediocre and unfocused stat growth.
B) Equip espers primarily for stat growth and accept that your characters will have limited magic use (quite the sacrifice in a game where magic is a very powerful command).
C) Switch between the two so that you have "OK" growth in both stats and magic spells (or grind).
D) Min-max by switching your espers around before and after leveling up.
None of these options make for compelling gameplay. Option C is made a little more tolerable by the way certain areas are clearly good for experience while others are better for learning magic (to the point where enemies may not give experience at all) but you still feel like you're wasting potential with any of A,B, or C. D just feels cheap. I think I'd like it better if there were more espers worth equipping at level up and there was a stronger connection between the kinds of spells an esper teaches and the stat boosts it gives (this is something the Materia system gets mostly right, there's a strong connection between the abilities on a Materia and the resulting stat boosts/penalties).
From a gameplay standpoint, the esper system is easily the worst part of the game.
That having been said, the Esper system is trash and I, in fact, actually like the Materia system better despite the aforementioned problem. The biggest problem I have with the Esper system is the way in which its uses clash. Espers perform three basic functions:
1) You can use them in battle to perform summon attacks.
2) They teach magic spells.
3) They act as a mechanism to customize stat growth (in fact, it is the only way to raise stats other than HP and MP).
Summons can be tactically interesting, but between having such overpowered characters (for all the talk of Sabin being overpowered, and he is, he's still pretty much middle of the pack among FFVI characters if you have good setups) and so many choices with equipment and relics that you don't run into many situations where summons solve a problem that can't be easily solved some other way, effectively meaning (1) can be a non-factor when choosing which Espers to equip.
That leaves us to (2) and (3), and in particular the problems that flow from the particularly horrible implementation of (3). The problem is that there are only a small handful of Espers you'd actually want to have equipped when leveling up at any given time. Many don't raise any stats at all or raise stats that aren't very important (Stamina is the most obvious example, especially in the original version where it's bugged to have positive and negative effects, it's also so easy to restore MP that boosting your MP growth really isn't worth the opportunity cost). And in other cases some options are strictly superior to others (why raise Magic Power by 1 when you can raise it by 2?). This leaves the player with several options.
A) Equip espers for learning magic and accept that your characters will have mediocre and unfocused stat growth.
B) Equip espers primarily for stat growth and accept that your characters will have limited magic use (quite the sacrifice in a game where magic is a very powerful command).
C) Switch between the two so that you have "OK" growth in both stats and magic spells (or grind).
D) Min-max by switching your espers around before and after leveling up.
None of these options make for compelling gameplay. Option C is made a little more tolerable by the way certain areas are clearly good for experience while others are better for learning magic (to the point where enemies may not give experience at all) but you still feel like you're wasting potential with any of A,B, or C. D just feels cheap. I think I'd like it better if there were more espers worth equipping at level up and there was a stronger connection between the kinds of spells an esper teaches and the stat boosts it gives (this is something the Materia system gets mostly right, there's a strong connection between the abilities on a Materia and the resulting stat boosts/penalties).
From a gameplay standpoint, the esper system is easily the worst part of the game.
DM_Uselink
Member
Two of my favorite games of all time. VI definitely holds up well. I saw Brandon Jone's (EZA) full playtrhough, and I found myself engaged even though I wasn't even playing.
If there is a chance to get an SNES mini (lol), that will be the first game I play.
Chrono Trigger had me at Toriyama, awesome graphics, its pace, and multiple endings. Having played only JRPGs it did feel fresh at the time.
Oh, forgot to mention that in my opinion both have some of the most memorable soundtracks in gaming history.
Gonna post links to some fan art I've made of both games because yes.
Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy VI
If there is a chance to get an SNES mini (lol), that will be the first game I play.
Chrono Trigger had me at Toriyama, awesome graphics, its pace, and multiple endings. Having played only JRPGs it did feel fresh at the time.
Oh, forgot to mention that in my opinion both have some of the most memorable soundtracks in gaming history.
Gonna post links to some fan art I've made of both games because yes.
Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy VI
V has a much more interesting battle system than either game. The characters aren't as interesting, but I think you could make a case that V is extremly under rated.
On topic, I need to play 6 again, but I loved it and Chrono Trigger. Chrono Trigger is like one of the least bloated JRPGS ever made thanks to the lack of random battles and easier gameplay. No grinding involved. 6 still has mechanics that are a bit less fun, I do like the unique character abilities, but a lot of them suck ass.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
Yeah I think I agree with that, too. I agree with the description of CT's being far worse, but that's precisely why I always liked FF VI's more. In fact, it's why I always like FF VI's world in general. CT (and to a lesser extent I felt FF VII had this problem, too) I always sort of disliked how their entire world's basically felt like 1 main city/castle with a few random bases or settles around. There's not much of a world in CT even. FF VII is a bit better but for a world with a supposed history of foreign war it always felt like outside of Midgar and Junon the rest of the world was unbelievably undeveloped -- CT much worse in that regard.
What I appreciated about VI is that I felt it had genuine provinces with their own cities, border towns, etc. Many of them clones, of course, but I liked how the world and its infrastructure or societal developments felt more expanded upon. And, after the apocalypse, it still felt like a world trying to carry on. CT's was pretty depressing, which was amazing from a story POV; but I also appreciated the hopeful optimism and determination that people carried on with in VI's -- especially in light of how sad Celes' scenes were.
That said, I imagine were that moment spoiled for you, it may not carry the same weight. VI was a pretty awe-striking story back in the day for me as a kid. At least for what SNES games were doing at the time, whether it was the army battles, the multiple POVs, the opera house, or the political banquet, and obviously the apocalypse.
VI changed console game storytelling for me almost as much as VII did, or as much as SM64 changed 3D controls or Elder Scrolls changed open worlds/UO and EQ changed online worlds. CT never changed much IMO... CT was more the perfection of it with flawless polish and pacing.
I understand what you mean.
I got to play both Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI when they first released, but I played Chrono Trigger first (a friend let me borrow both, and I borrowed another friend's SNES).
I was absolutely smitten with Chrono Trigger (it single handedly made me a JRPG fan, and is still my favorite JRPG of all time), and when I played FFVI for the first time after, it just didn't click with me. I thought the graphics and music were amazing, I loved the atmosphere, but I hated the difficulty, and the random battles. I've still yet to beat it, but I didn't love it back then in his gah school. I didn't hate it either, but I preferred Trigger more.
FFVI is my wife's favorite however, and she's not a huge fan of CT, though she prefers watching me play it instead. Point is, different strokes for different folks. It's okay if FFVI isn't vibing with you.I have FFVI on my Vita, and I'll get through it one day (I actually have FF's I-IX on my Vita, and I need to play them all too!).
I got to play both Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy VI when they first released, but I played Chrono Trigger first (a friend let me borrow both, and I borrowed another friend's SNES).
I was absolutely smitten with Chrono Trigger (it single handedly made me a JRPG fan, and is still my favorite JRPG of all time), and when I played FFVI for the first time after, it just didn't click with me. I thought the graphics and music were amazing, I loved the atmosphere, but I hated the difficulty, and the random battles. I've still yet to beat it, but I didn't love it back then in his gah school. I didn't hate it either, but I preferred Trigger more.
FFVI is my wife's favorite however, and she's not a huge fan of CT, though she prefers watching me play it instead. Point is, different strokes for different folks. It's okay if FFVI isn't vibing with you.I have FFVI on my Vita, and I'll get through it one day (I actually have FF's I-IX on my Vita, and I need to play them all too!).
Evil Monkey DTT
Banned
This thread should be renamed "JRPG hot takes". Chrono trigger is great, ff6 is better and worse for different reasons, dragon quest 5 has aged but it's still my personal favorite rpg of the era.
What is NeoGAF if not a miserable little pile of hot takes?
Most of my love for DQ V stems from its remakes, but it still makes me sad whenever it gets ignored in these discussions. I wonder how different its popularity in the west would be had it not missed the boat back at the SNES. I doubt it'd have been a success in its time, but it has enough going for it that it could've been one of those cult classics with a significant nostalgia following.
MrRudiMentary
Member
I played both games for the first time within the last five years, emulating the SNES games. FFVI was the only one I had any frustrations with at points and Sabin was the only part of the battle system I remember actually enjoying. Random battles destroyed my soul. FFVI has aged far more than Chrono Trigger has. That said, FFVI has a kind of "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" nature to its narrative and it leads to a lot more varied and interesting playthrough, if not admittedly also more incoherent. (Most) of the party all had at least one great moment of characterisation that carried them for the rest of the game, whereas Chrono Trigger is a lot more vanilla.
They're both incredible, just far more different than people tell you.
They're both incredible, just far more different than people tell you.
It's just a case of the games mechanics not aging well, whilst not having the nostalgia to work your way through it. I recently replayed FFIX (which is one of my favourite games ever) and boy I didn't remember it being so slow. I wouldn't have finished it without the fast forward option.
I personally regard VI to be one of the best FF's. But for someone to play it these days, after being exposed to much better turn-based systems, I'm not surprised if they dislike it.
I personally regard VI to be one of the best FF's. But for someone to play it these days, after being exposed to much better turn-based systems, I'm not surprised if they dislike it.
hydrophilic attack
Member
Well, I've talked about it countless times before. But both FF VI and CT just lack any kind of gameplay challenge. Sure, the stories are good, but it gets tiring going through tens of hours of mindless battles where you can just hold down one button to win
V actually dared to be challenging. Sure, if you know all the secret tricks, you can make yourself highly OP. But on your first run through, the game makes for a really good challenge. I like the approach of making highly challenging boss battles, and then giving you a plethora of tools to experiment with to overcome the challenges. VI and CT give you lots of tools as well, but lack the challenge to make any of it meaningful