• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Game Dev "Nintendo's out here making people look like fools on hardware that's literally tenfold what the Switch is"

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Well, Microsoft bought them well after they'd made a name for themselves.
Yea I was mainly being facetious, thought the 'tad' made it obvious. But my comment was mainly aimed at the 'omg how did they make that run on Switch' - Havok's been shipping games on mobile class hw (or lower) for decades. It's actually one of (arguably the top) the best optimized physics engines out there - regardless of the reputation it has in public.

I don't think that is fair to say. The Source engine is very much known for its physics implementation.
The difference is Source devs weren't just creative with using it, they wrote the physics engine from ground-up, before 3rd party middleware like the one in BOTK even existed. So they get credited for a reason. Not to mention the thing ran on original Xbox, retaining all the interactivity, and graphics sacrifices aside, could have run that gameplay on PS2 or GC too.

But this just goes back to what I said in first post - industry as a whole has been very stagnant in gameplay-interactivity for over 2 decades now, the early 00s advancements were mostly not expanded on, in favour of ever escalating war for visual fidelity at expense of most other things.
 
This thread just keeps delivering… The level of salt here is just mindblowing, also is really easy to spot a people that doesn’t understand why KoT is marvel of programming, they just throw games with physics based gameplay 😂. Guys thats NOT the point here, we know that a lot of games used physics before… This is about the complexity of ToK physic system achieved.

artworks-000385022769-d80gsb-t500x500.jpg
 

John Bilbo

Member
But this just goes back to what I said in first post - industry as a whole has been very stagnant in gameplay-interactivity for over 2 decades now, the early 00s advancements were mostly not expanded on, in favour of ever escalating war for visual fidelity at expense of most other things.
That's true and it's a shame really. The influence of Half-Life on the industry is ironic.
 

SirTerry-T

Member
Funny, why was half life 2 able to do both?

I like games that do both. That exists you know...talk about those titles.

im only using that basic feat as an example of what they cant even do.

Maybe just maybe, it was a standard we just sought out in order to better convey emotions, and immersion etc.

Does your brain only assess gameplay as fighting or tinkering around with some shit? Its an overarching experience. Tired of these games getting away with having no tech ambition, narrative, or creative contexts for quests in these open world games. Because gamers today think all gameplay is is fighting and running around aimlessly all day.
"Tinkering around with some shit".

Very insightful, enough to make one re-evaluate the whole concept of "what is a videogame".

I was blind but now I can see, etc.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
There is a reason why both ain’t on Nintendo Switch. Teardown will easily tank even the Steam Deck even if it isn’t open world.
Completely besides the point. All i'm saying here is that we still get games that know how to integrate physics into gameplay and have complex interconnected systems working in conjuction, often to more complex degrees than TotK.

The achievment here in Zelda is make it mainstream friendly. The building mechanics are simple enough for anyone to be able to use it, but also complex enough for players to be able to build a good variety of interesting and useful contraptions, it has insane amounts of custom-made content that encourage exploration of the game systems, with objectives that are 'gamey' and straighforward enough for anyone to be able to understand.

The bolded one in particular is probably the truly impressive aspect in TotK. I've seen enough game with well designed systems that interact with each other, where players can use it to solve puzzles, for exploration or for combat. But TotK has 152 shrines, 80k square km of playable area + sky islands and underground, all filled with these sorts of puzzles and encounters, and it does it all while still keeping these mechanics reasonably interesting to play around with.

The mechanics themselves aren't that hard to implement, nor are they particularly CPU taxing. Using them to make an interesting game is the real challenge, and not only they did make a game out of it, they made an insanely big one.
 

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Completely besides the point. All i'm saying here is that we still get games that know how to integrate physics into gameplay and have complex interconnected systems working in conjuction, often to more complex degrees than TotK.

The achievment here in Zelda is make it mainstream friendly. The building mechanics are simple enough for anyone to be able to use it, but also complex enough for players to be able to build a good variety of interesting and useful contraptions, it has insane amounts of custom-made content that encourage exploration of the game systems, with objectives that are 'gamey' and straighforward enough for anyone to be able to understand.

The bolded one in particular is probably the truly impressive aspect in TotK. I've seen enough game with well designed systems that interact with each other, where players can use it to solve puzzles, for exploration or for combat. But TotK has 152 shrines, 80k square km of playable area + sky islands and underground, all filled with these sorts of puzzles and encounters, and it does it all while still keeping these mechanics reasonably interesting to play around with.

The mechanics themselves aren't that hard to implement, nor are they particularly CPU taxing. Using them to make an interesting game is the real challenge, and not only they did make a game out of it, they made an insanely big one.

That is indeed the point. Teardown isn't comparable at all. Not when there's no NPC to interact with, 3 tiers of open world to move, combat, limited space to navigate and more. Doesn't make them any less impressive though. And even the games that came close, ain't on a mobile chip like TOTK.

If they are easy to implement, we would have seen more of them in more games. Hopefully we'll see AAA games learn lessons from Nintendo, but I doubt that will happen.
 
Last edited:

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
Actually HL2 uses havok too.
Ah fair point - I confused it with Source 2.
At the time - physics landscape was a lot more chaotic too - not many people were adopting middleware yet. But goes to show how far Havok success stories go.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Completely besides the point. All i'm saying here is that we still get games that know how to integrate physics into gameplay and have complex interconnected systems working in conjuction, often to more complex degrees than TotK.

The achievment here in Zelda is make it mainstream friendly. The building mechanics are simple enough for anyone to be able to use it, but also complex enough for players to be able to build a good variety of interesting and useful contraptions, it has insane amounts of custom-made content that encourage exploration of the game systems, with objectives that are 'gamey' and straighforward enough for anyone to be able to understand.

The bolded one in particular is probably the truly impressive aspect in TotK. I've seen enough game with well designed systems that interact with each other, where players can use it to solve puzzles, for exploration or for combat. But TotK has 152 shrines, 80k square km of playable area + sky islands and underground, all filled with these sorts of puzzles and encounters, and it does it all while still keeping these mechanics reasonably interesting to play around with.

The mechanics themselves aren't that hard to implement, nor are they particularly CPU taxing. Using them to make an interesting game is the real challenge, and not only they did make a game out of it, they made an insanely big one.
Agreed, Havok or the like is put to good use and for sure their coders have done a great job at taming it on Switch given its memory and CPU resources.

The achievement they should really lauded for is as you put it, making complex and interconnected physics system accessible, stable, and powerful at the same time without breaking the game, and it could be one of the big big reasons this game took so long to make.

Ideally they did create a proper holistic solution they can easily reuse and expand on without it breaking (if they achieved the current end goal with tons of documented manual tweaks/hacks looping through QA and development for years would not make another game in the series cheaper to make and this complexity could actually bite them in the ass if you couple it to an increase in complexity once you stack more features and push all systems further including adding more NPC’s and interactive elements… this could mean an exponential increase in complexity and make a sequel to a game that took 6 years take 8-9 years, etc…).
 

Guilty_AI

Member
That is indeed the point. Nintendo weaving physics magic on a weak hardware that even games like Horizon can't compete (side note: Teardown isn't comparable at all. Not when there's no NPC to interact with, 3 tiers of open world to move, combat, limited space to navigate and more).
If they are easy to implement, we would have seen more of them in more games.
Hardware has nothing to do with it. TotK simulates few dozen simple physical rigid object and systems locally, the map size won't really affect this aspect of the game by much since physics objects just disappear in the distance if you move away from them. Even in terms of interactable NPCs, they're rather sparse throught the map and you'll only see them in higher density inside towns.

As i said its not doing any hardware magic, and if you're wondering why we don't see them in more games despite being easy to implement, the answer is game design.
Implementing them is easy enough, making a fun game out of them requires creativity, thought, talent, good understanding of what make games fun, and so on. Guess what our AAA devs, used to their streamlined workflows, indulging in corporate culture, worried about their precious networking, all with dreams of making the next Fortnite or The Last of Us, don't have.

Not to mention you'd still need a bit of time and thought to implement a physics system that would serve your purpose (TotK for example doesn't bother remembering objects as mentioned before. Likely a chosen drawback that doesn't impact the game too negatively to compensate for its weak CPU/memory). If all a dev knows is how to implement third party systems, they won't be able to fine-tune them to his purposes, cutting the fat and leaving what matters the most for the game.


PS: if teardown example doesn't satisfy you for x or y reason, just use the others i gave.
 
Last edited:

SeraphJan

Member
Yes, we the devs also love videogames, not only the ones of the companies we are working on.
I can relate too, for me personally I especially like to explore games that's design philosophy was vastly different than mine, so I could learn
 
Last edited:

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
That is indeed the point. Nintendo weaving physics magic on a weak hardware that even games like Horizon can't compete
It's not a question of 'can't' - Horizon never tried (nor do most AAAs - to be fair). Like Souls have been using Havok for all their games - but just don't utilize it in interesting ways - because game design isn't interested in it.

Again - weaving physics into core gameplay is not to be undersold in complexity - but it has much less to do with hardware and performance and a lot more to do with creating compelling gameplay.

The post above mine clarifies this in depth much better though.
 
Last edited:

ANDS

King of Gaslighting
That sounds ridiculous to me, you can build literally anything and climb anything for traversal.

You're describing different things. I can use a car to drive a block; the question is why would you?

And the shrines are Portal 2-levels of good imo. The level/puzzle design is fantastic which is remarkable given the player-options at hand.

I have no words to even describe this line but. . ."oh brother." The shrines in TOTK are better than BOTW, but they are still mobile minigame level quality that make no sense within the larger world and only exist to give players a reason to use Ultrahand in a structured environment. None of that exists or is even required in the overworld outside of a few contrived examples ("Ah geeze I feel over and need to get to my friend. . .ah geeze. Can you help a green guy out, ah geeze. Ah geeze!") using conveniently placed piles of supplies and a bagful of MacGuffin's that you can pull out and use at will ("Oh except in this here shrine, because that would cause too much friction between the gameplay and the world and we didn't design TOTK to be THAT flimsy.")

. . .like I've thrown 30 hours into the game and will - VERY SLOWLY - make my way through the game in bite sized chunks, appreciating the systems that exist in the game, but still being let down by by their connection to the overall narrative.

EDIT: The above had an incomplete sentence (apparently "bait").
 
Last edited:

Robb

Gold Member
You're describing different things. I can use a car to drive a block; the question is why would you?
I’m not sure I follow. For that specific case you wouldn’t, but you’d use one of the many other traversal options available?

Isn’t that the point? Traversal in this game is super varied with loads of options.

but they are still mobile minigame level quality that make no sense within the larger world and only exist to give players a reason to use Ultrahand in a structured environment.
I’m not sure what to tell you other than that I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote.

To me the shrines always had context in this one, I understood them as initially being used by the Zonai for training the constructs. So combat shrines to train combat constructs, building one’s for steward/ranger constructs etc.

And definitely don’t agree on them being mobile mini game quality. Loads, if not all, of them have multiple solutions and reward out-of-the box thinking and are very cleverly designed. The shrines are one of my favorites parts of this entire game.
 
Last edited:

Dr. Claus

Vincit qui se vincit
I’m not sure I follow. For that specific case you wouldn’t, but you’d use one of the many other traversal options available?

Isn’t that the point? Traversal in this game is super varied with loads of options.


I’m not sure what to tell you other than that I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote.

To me the shrines always had context in this one, I understood them as initially being used by the Zonai for training the constructs. So combat shrines to train combat constructs, building one’s for steward/ranger constructs etc.

And definitely don’t agree on them being mobile mini game quality. Loads, if not all, of them have multiple solutions and reward out-of-the box thinking and are very cleverly designed. The shrines are one of my favorites parts of this entire game.
The first game i would definitely say that they had a mobile like quality to them. But in ToTK? Hardly. Some shrines are much longer, offering stealth, building, and combat in a 5-9 minute sequence. Some of the earlier shrines are more reminiscient of the Botw ones, but it isn’t long before you find the more varied ones that take up the majority of the games shrine list.
 

Robb

Gold Member
The first game i would definitely say that they had a mobile like quality to them.
There were loads of fantastic ones in BotW as well imo, but yeah not at all the same amount or variety as TotK. I was also never a fan of the combat shrines in BotW, there was quite a lot of those. Not to mention the ones that required gyro controls which was downright bad.

And sure, the difficulty early on is low but that can be said for any puzzle game. First levels of a game like Portal is also child’s play, for example.
 

GigaBowser

The bear of bad news
This

There are many games out there with physics interactions, but usually those are small games with controlled environments.

Zelda has a big scope, which makes things much more difficult to design.

“The most complicated part of game development is when different systems and features start touching each other,” said Shayna Moon, a technical producer who’s worked on games like the 2018 God of War reboot and its sequel, God of War: Ragnarök, to Polygon. “It’s really impressive. The amount of dynamic objects is why there are so many different kinds of solutions to this puzzle in particular. There are so many ways this could break.”
Moon pointed toward the individual segments of the bridge that operate independently. Then there’s the lava, the cart, and the fact you can use Link’s Ultrahand ability to tie any of these things together — even the bridge back onto itself.
Nintendo reportedly used a full year of Tears of the Kingdom’s development for polish, and it shows. “The amount of different options available is a testament to the amount of work that every single person at every level of the team did, especially the QA testers,” Moon said. “Open-world games with a ton of real-time physics objects like this are notoriously difficult to QA test.”

Software engineer Cole Wardell put it another way: “Imagine the lava bridge above, when you grab the end of it, you pull part of it to one side,” he said. “Well, now that drags the other attached piece a little bit with it, and that piece moving makes the next piece move, and so on and so forth. And if any one element of the track collides with something, it has to be nudged or slid back into somewhere that doesn’t collide, which moves the pieces next to it which moves the pieces next to it.”

Tears of the Kingdom also has its own rope-like physics flex: Another viral clip showed a door opening using four wheels and a chain. That’s a complex interaction that takes no shortcuts, Wardell told Polygon. “As a rule, physics engines take a lot of shortcuts and make a lot of assumptions, both for optimization purposes and to keep developers from pulling their own hair out,” Wardell said. “Almost all of these shortcuts, whether it be collision-free ropes [or] rotating objects only applying forces in specific ways, would make this kind of mechanism flat-out not work, or the chain start vibrating until it disappears from view in a single frame, or some other infamous physics glitch.”

He said that rope bugs “vibrating out of control” are so common because of these problems. “If you don’t do everything just right, one movement will cause the other parts of the rope to move, and their movement will cause more collisions — God forbid you want the rope to collide with itself. Those collisions will cause more nudges, which is more movement, which ends up with your robe vibrating out of the map.”
Doshi explained that complex physics are common in games, but said that Tears of the Kingdom pushes the limits of its engine to create exceptional gameplay and puzzles. “Realistic physics simulations take hours to do calculations to make sure it is highly precise and accurate,” he said. “Game physics needs to produce similar results every 16-32 milliseconds (60-30 frames per second).”
Some games are able to avoid these complexities by designing around them, Doshi said. That means restricting player action, which is the antithesis of Tears of the Kingdom’s design. There are constraints, but somehow, in this game, it still feels like nothing is off-limits.
“In game development, it’s not if physics will break down but when,” Gravity Well senior engineer and former Call of Duty developer Josh Caratelli told Polygon. That’s why there’s a whole Reddit page about physics goofs — player characters ragdolling into oblivion or enemies bouncing off the walls. It’s not that games with physics bugs or glitches are poorly made; it’s just really easy for things to go wrong.

“What’s extremely technically impressive is how stable it is and how it all fits together in a way where there’s no pre-programmed solution and players can solve puzzles with complete freedom,” Caratelli added.​

Moon noted that it’s not exactly that other studios can’t reach this level of technical innovation, but that they don’t prioritize the resources needed to do it. Often, that comes down to supporting the humans who make the games we play. Tears of the Kingdom was seemingly built on top of Breath of the Wild, reportedly with a large portion of the same team working on it.
“IF YOU WANT GOOD GAMES, YOU HAVE TO GIVE A DAMN ABOUT THE PEOPLE MAKING THEM”
“There is a problem within the games industry where we don’t value institutional knowledge,” Moon said. “Companies will prioritize bringing someone from outside rather than keeping their junior or mid-level developers and training them up. We are shooting ourselves in the foot by not valuing that institutional knowledge. You can really see it in Tears of the Kingdom. It’s an advancement of what made Breath of the Wild special.”
According to Moon, it’s increasingly common for game developers to feel like they’re holding some feature or another together with duct tape, figuratively speaking, after the person who originally spearheaded its design got laid off or left; there’s a lot of time wasted reconfiguring and assessing how something was done. It’s not that Nintendo doesn’t have its own problems, because it certainly does — Nintendo of America QA testers spoke out about a “frat house” experience within Nintendo of America’s Washington headquarters last year, for instance. But the company does appear to value the expertise of its development staff.
“In addition to the overall hard work of the team, the institutional knowledge is clearly a factor in why this ended up being so smoothly done,” Moon said. “The more stable and happy people are, the more they are able to make games of this quality. If you want good games, you have to give a damn about the people making them.”
 

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Hardware has nothing to do with it. TotK simulates few dozen simple physical rigid object and systems locally, the map size won't really affect this aspect of the game by much since physics objects just disappear in the distance if you move away from them. Even in terms of interactable NPCs, they're rather sparse throught the map and you'll only see them in higher density inside towns.

As i said its not doing any hardware magic, and if you're wondering why we don't see them in more games despite being easy to implement, the answer is game design.
Implementing them is easy enough, making a fun game out of them requires creativity, thought, talent, good understanding of what make games fun, and so on. Guess what our AAA devs, used to their streamlined workflows, indulging in corporate culture, worried about their precious networking, all with dreams of making the next Fortnite or The Last of Us, don't have.

Not to mention you'd still need a bit of time and thought to implement a physics system that would serve your purpose (TotK for example doesn't bother remembering objects as mentioned before. Likely a chosen drawback that doesn't impact the game too negatively to compensate for its weak CPU/memory). If all a dev knows is how to implement third party systems, they won't be able to fine-tune them to his purposes, cutting the fat and leaving what matters the most for the game.


PS: if teardown example doesn't satisfy you for x or y reason, just use the others i gave.

True, but people has thought that its the hardware that's limiting it. But when given the increased horsepower, developers can only do a part of it on PC and next gen consoles in titles like Teardown. That's what makes it impressive.

We also don't see them often in indie nor mid sized games. I am not going to bother with Stormworks, it looks more like a tech demo than a finished game
 

ArtHands

Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
It's not a question of 'can't' - Horizon never tried (nor do most AAAs - to be fair). Like Souls have been using Havok for all their games - but just don't utilize it in interesting ways - because game design isn't interested in it.

Again - weaving physics into core gameplay is not to be undersold in complexity - but it has much less to do with hardware and performance and a lot more to do with creating compelling gameplay.

The post above mine clarifies this in depth much better though.

I am not sure if its the case of they never try when the developers themselves are gushing over it.

If you're talking about the corporate culture and workflow etc too, it really only this too: only Nintendo has all the stars aligned to make such a polished game with so many physics. The rest can't because their environment is limiting them their potential and opportunity.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
True, but people has thought that its the hardware that's limiting it. But when given the increased horsepower, developers can only do a part of it on PC and next gen consoles in titles like Teardown. That's what makes it impressive.
People think a lot of things, it doesn't matter. And saying some of these games are just doing "a part of it" is a very misleading way to put things.

Yeah they're not doing everything TotK, but they're also doing things TotK doesn't. They're different games after all. Teardown for example has object persistency (which TotK doesn't), not to mention the amount of simulated objects is in another level completely.

We also don't see them often in indie nor mid sized games.
There are tons. I gave 4 examples, but there are more. Avorion, Satisfactory, Factorio, Noita, many cRPGs, etc.

I am not going to bother with Stormworks, it looks more like a tech demo than a finished game
Funny, thats the kind of mentality that drives big devs away from trying to be creative. If you're gonna judge a game on a single glance like that, its only natural they'd rather put their resources into making ultra realistic graphics. Not everyone has the "Zelda" and "Nintendo" names guaranteeing them sales, after all.
 
Last edited:

GigaBowser

The bear of bad news
People think a lot of things, it doesn't matter. And saying some of these games are just doing "a part of it" is a very misleading way to put things.

Yeah they're not doing everything TotK, but they're also doing things TotK doesn't. They're different games after all. Teardown for example has object persistency (which TotK doesn't), not to mention the amount of simulated objects is in another level completely.


There are tons. I gave 4 examples, but there are more. Avorion, Satisfactory, Factorio, Noita, many cRPGs, etc.


Funny, thats the kind of mentality that drives big devs away from trying to be creative. If you're gonna judge a game on a single glance like that, its only natural they'd rather put their resources into making ultra realistic graphics. Not everyone has the "Zelda" and "Nintendo" names guaranteeing them sales, after all.
These devs are saying TOTK does more combined things than the other games and ares impressed by hows incredibubble it is that it doesn't alls break apart
 

Guilty_AI

Member
These devs are saying TOTK does more combined things than the other games and ares impressed by hows incredibubble it is that it doesn't alls break apart
These devs are also attributing this to hardware, which is not the case. And as i said, other games have other types of mechanics or features that aren't present on TotK, using this as a metric is just dumb.

Again, the truly impressive thing is how TotK can extend this for such a big game. This kind of design requires a lot of curation, otherwise risking either making the challenges trivial or softlocking players, the amount of work this must've taken to make sure everything was in working order, and fun, was definitely no walk.
 

ANDS

King of Gaslighting
I’m not sure I follow. For that specific case you wouldn’t, but you’d use one of the many other traversal options available?

You can create amazing things using the systems in TOTK (same with BOTW but much les) - and most of it isn't needed. The same clash existed in BOTW: the tools were only as useful as you needed them to be. I've said this before, the goal in these shrines isn't how you complete an action, simply that you do it. So to your point: why would I spend time creating this "traversal solution" when I can just walk most places; now obviously you can't walk everywhere and I'm using "walk" to describe the minimal effort solution to any traversal problem that exists.

This also applies to every engagement with the physics system in the game, but I don't mind just focusing on getting around to explain how the depth of the physics system NINTENDO has designed is wasted here.

I’m not sure what to tell you other than that I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote.

To me the shrines always had context in this one, I understood them as initially being used by the Zonai for training the constructs. So combat shrines to train combat constructs, building one’s for steward/ranger constructs etc.

That's fine for the shrines in the tutorial sky island, but their place in the rest of the world firmly establishes them as time wasters and open-world "distractions" with little connection to the overall narrative of the world. Right now, the only reason the shrines are designed as they are is because they have to be to match the gameplay systems that are in the game and not as a natural extension of the world. As an example, in HORIZON, the cauldrons are the dungeons where you get the machine overrides and progress Aloy's character development overall; they also exist narratively as the high science facilities established to save humanity (sorry mild spoilers) with tech that presumably would exist as the apex of human development at the time. In BOTW/TOTK shrines exist as a representation of ancient advanced technology, technology that more often than not contains. . .a party puzzle. A party puzzle that this advanced civilization (in either game) created to do what exactly? Tutorialize combat; perfectly fine. But what would have been the point of the below:



Like, this is a fantastic puzzle for sure - but it makes no sense for it to exist in the first place, and is just an exercise to use the new abilities in a bespoke environment. Other than providing Link with a progression tick, it doesn't exist for anything else or make sense in the world beyond "A wizard did it."

And definitely don’t agree on them being mobile mini game quality. Loads, if not all, of them have multiple solutions and reward out-of-the box thinking and are very cleverly designed. The shrines are one of my favorites parts of this entire game.

. . .I play "mobile mini game quality" games all the time. That isn't a statement about their quality, but what they're designed to do (provide brief mental distractions that don't break engagement elsewhere). They exist SOLELY to force the player to use the new powers in the game and because they are hidden away from the overworld, they can be as silly and narratively inconsistent as they need to be.
 

Robb

Gold Member
when I can just walk most places; now obviously you can't walk everywhere and I'm using "walk" to describe the minimal effort solution to any traversal problem that exists.
I still don’t understand how that’d make traversal as “deep as a puddle”? What other game are you even comparing it to in that case?

If you personally choose to walk somewhere go for it. It’ll take 5x longer than just putting a rocket on a log to go that same distance which is what I’d do. And there you have yet another means of traversal btw.

I don’t think you actively choosing the most inefficient solution is a problem with the game. You can also crouch-walk everywhere if you want to.

But what would have been the point of the below:
To train steward/ranger constructs one way to construct bridges and interact with dangerous overworld elements?

That’s how I’ve interpreted it. There’s not just combat constructs.

I think we’ll just agree to disagree, you seem to think the shrines don’t fit. I do, so there’s no point in going on with that I guess.
 
Last edited:

SABRE220

Member
The game is a technical masterclass on the switch but the reason current devs look like fools in comparison is because they literally shut down research and development in physics tech for two generations. I am legit not joking when I say the focus on physics and showcases pushing it were more impressive on the ps3 gen. We had red faction with modular destruction and the beast that was cryengine and crysis, if some people looked at the stuff you could do in that engine in 2007 you would look in disgust at the current state of physics(hundreds of individual objects being affected by the physics of a massive nuclear explosion, trees and shacks being obliterated etc, tornadoes affecting dozens of unique objects etc).

The devs basically decided acting interactivity and physics are too tough and only adding graphics yields bang for the bug in terms of wow factor, so we have games over the last two gens that are essentially window dressing. I was so excited for a massive cpu upgrade via zen....and it got reduced to just 60fps..Nintendo is the only one who actually invested in physics not to take anything away from the amazing game but they literally had no competition in that regards.
 
Last edited:

Kumomeme

Member
this make me thinking that, it is fine if next Switch not crazily powerfull but, atleast put more focus CPU performance and perhaps, on storage speed too. give the devs more related hardware resource to try with their gameplay idea like this game does.
 
Last edited:

ADiTAR

ידע זה כוח
this make me thinking that, it is fine if next Switch not crazily powerfull but, atleast put more focus CPU performance and perhaps, on storage speed too. give the devs more related hardware resource to try with their gameplay idea like this game does.
According to overclocks, it's actually the memory that needs to be amped up the most.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
The game is a technical masterclass on the switch but the reason current devs look like fools in comparison is because they literally shut down research and development in physics tech for two generations. I am legit not joking when I say the focus on physics and showcases pushing it were more impressive on the ps3 gen. We had red faction with modular destruction and the beast that was cryengine and crysis, if some people looked at the stuff you could do in that engine in 2007 you would look in disgust at the current state of physics(hundreds of individual objects being affected by the physics of a massive nuclear explosion, trees and shacks being obliterated etc, tornadoes affecting dozens of unique objects etc).

The devs basically decided acting interactivity and physics is too tough and only adding graphics yields bang for the bug in terms of wow so basically we have games the last two gens that are essentially window dressing. I was so excited for a massive cpu upgrade viab zen....and it got reduced to just 60fps..Nintendo is the only one who actually invested in physics not to take anything away from the amazing game but they literally had no competition in that regards.
Nintendo can afford / has a fanbase that will wait 6 years or so for a sequel and that gives them a chance when “on the surface” the game seems to reuse a lot of content despite the long dev time.

Nintendo is able to afford the long experimentation and tweaking and fixing this kind of free fork physics sandboxes require to work on day 1… other devs want or need shorter and more predictable dev cycles (they have enough trouble doing that as it is) with some of them moving towards a GaaS model where the game is developed as it is consumed and I am not sure it works well for that.

Then again, we will see how long it will take Nintendo to make a sequel to TotK, extending the physics based gameplay further and needing 7-8 years to sort it all out (they will also have to adapt to a new platform for the sequel for sure) will be problematic if they do not have a holistic solution but just polish by brute force (dev, test, dev, test, etc…).
 

GigaBowser

The bear of bad news
“It’s amazing to build a dynamic rope bridge under constant tension, interacting with an independent motion physics actor and the player and making sure everything is working and there are no glitches,” said Armstrong. “No physics engine I’ve ever worked with could do that so easily.”
 

Kumomeme

Member
According to overclocks, it's actually the memory that needs to be amped up the most.
i mean, not performance wise but for development wise, stuff that devs could play around for designing gameplay. theoritically, CPU handle physic, A.I, object numbers on screen, object destruction and other simulation which is stuff that this game excel at. if, we want to see they did more of of this stuff in future and goes beyond what they already currently did. however, sooner or later Switch CPU gonna hit it limit for them(or already did)
 
Last edited:

Trunx81

Member
"An eight year old phone chip" is what blows my mind everytime I play "big" games on the Switch.
The PS4 on the other hand will be 10 years in November (it was anounced in February 2013) and still holds up to this day with amazing games that run playable to great (H:FW as an example). ... and now I feel old.
 

REDRZA MWS

Member
It's almost like Nintendo has ( and always has had) some of the best designers and coders in the entire videogame industry, and a Q&A department that is one of the most thorough in the business
That being said, if only they'd care to ever compete in the harwdware space ever again..... sigh.
 

GymWolf

Member
“It’s amazing to build a dynamic rope bridge under constant tension, interacting with an independent motion physics actor and the player and making sure everything is working and there are no glitches,” said Armstrong. “No physics engine I’ve ever worked with could do that so easily.”
Lance armstrong?
 
Last edited:

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
I am not sure if its the case of they never try when the developers themselves are gushing over it.
The rule of cool may work in Hollywood - but not really in games.
At any rate - AAA development is powered by lowest common denominators, not things developer gush over.

only Nintendo has all the stars aligned to make such a polished game with so many physics.
I think it's more a case of Nintendo being one of the few companies that can afford to run experiments with AAA $s (while all fanbases are rigid in some ways, Nintendo ones don't seem as attached to core mechanics as some others). They are not the only one - but the entire list is less than a handful worldwide, chances of getting one of them experimenting with physics mechanics are diminishingly small.

But when given the increased horsepower, developers can only do a part of it on PC and next gen consoles in titles like Teardown. That's what makes it impressive.
Teardown is a completely physicalized environment where basically nothing is static - none of the mainstream games (including TOTK) are even in the same playing field.
Now - the fact Teardown is entirely focused on destruction - is a shame - but that's a limitation of game-design, not the sophistication of its physics simulation.


The game is a technical masterclass on the switch but the reason current devs look like fools in comparison is because they literally shut down research and development in physics tech for two generations.
But they didn't - a big part of the reason TOTK can exist today is that the likes of Havok kept investing in their tech. While we're still fundamentally seeing the same physics simulation that games have been doing since beginning of 2000s (even at similar scales, in some cases), the stability of numerical solvers has improved dramatically in past 20 years, so being able to simulate joint-chains, cloth/rope and/or complex articulations interactions without exploding(or requiring 1000hz update rates), is on the back of all the clever math people improving that area.
Though I agree - we could have been much further by now.

The devs basically decided acting interactivity and physics is too tough and only adding graphics yields bang for the bug in terms of wow so basically we have games the last two gens that are essentially window dressing.
While that's the outcome - it's not entirely on the back of graphics chase. A big part of why physics usage in games has stalled/scaled back has been the focus, and popularity of online, and especially - competitive - online games. To your own example - ask yourself why nothing in the entire Crysis franchise ever had an online mode that comes even close to interactivity of original Crysis SP.
 
Top Bottom