Koenigssee
Member
Its' best game in around 20 years is not a MMORPG.
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How is it that Zelda maintained its status while Final Fantasy couldnt?
- Thread starter LakeOf9
- Start date
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Most other open world games are hot garbage in the "world feels alive" department they tend to be empty and rather spacious with a whole lotta nada to do. Sea of Thieves is empty on the virtue that it relies on other players to give that illusion of the world being alive.
Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom has a lot of locales and interactions across the game world and in TotK's case I'd say the most empty part of the game is probably the Sky Islands. Both Hyrule and the Chasm have a lot of things going on.
If you want a lifeless open world game in the Zelda series I give you the great Skyward Sword. Exploring the Sky was painful due to how barren it actually was. Which was interesting since Wind Waker was just as lifeless but felt so alive traversing the Great Sea. Plus it was worth taking the 4 hours required to chart out the world map.
Games like Xenoblade X, BotW/TotK, Witcher 3, Horizon, CP2077 do Open World right or rather I should say Sandbox.
I think ToTK is probably one of the best Sandbox games out there JUST for being pretty much seamless and no load times across the Sky Islands, Hyrule or the expansive Chasm. Only load times I've encountered is cinematics or going into the shrines which are instanced zones or rooms.
And it's rather curious that the Chasm IMO is a very eerie dead place but there is a whole lot of life down there too with all the super strong monsters that can come out of nowhere. Really happy the Master Sword glows when Gloom enemies are near. It does wonders for my anxiety since down there you don't want to be hit by anything or get one shot by a "world boss".
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Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
I’m start to think you don’t understand what “empty” actually means and just throw that word at everything you don’t like.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
So four spinoffs, several of which are actually good games (even if I'm not personally interested in Musou). Spirit Tracks isn't one of them, don't understand why you're including it. It's not one of the greatest Zelda games, but it's no spinoff in any way.No?
You also missed one, Cadence of Hyrule, which I also understand is really good.
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RoadHazard
Gold Member
What the hell is "season of time"?
Team Andromeda
Member
I find Sea of Thieves and Zelda BOTW to be much the same myself. I haven't played or bought Tears, so can't comment and the main reason I couldn't get into Skyward was because of the bullsh8t Wii controls I loved Wind Waker though
I didn't really get into Witcher 3 either.
Team Andromeda
Member
I say it because that's how I feel about the world, maybe since you're such a nice person you should accept people have different views and opinions.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Because your definition of "empty" doesn't make any sense. You dont like how it design it open world that fine but what the hell "empty" means in this context?
In Zelda you have multiple cities and you see environments interacting with people, animal and enemies so again EMPTY HOW?
MagiusNecros
Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
I think it might be that big sandbox games just don't appeal to you or are not engaging enough. I wouldn't say these games are empty though.
I think if you play enough of them you've pretty much played them all.
vodka-bull
Member
There have been a lot of low Zelda games in the series. Zelda 2 was horrible. Skyward Sword terrible. Majoras Mask was weird. Wind Waker was boring and tesious. To say every Zelda has been great is quite delusional.
Based on your comments I get the feeling you haven't actually played BOTW/TOTK
Square fell off track during FF13. "HD towns were too hard". You got some super linear experience which a lot of people hated. FF14 initially was a dud, but they turned that around marvelously. FF15, who was asking for J-Pop the rpg?
FF16 looks awesome, but Square is releasing it in a STACKED period. It's easy to get lost when Tears of the Kingdom and Street Fighter 6 just came out.
FF16 looks awesome, but Square is releasing it in a STACKED period. It's easy to get lost when Tears of the Kingdom and Street Fighter 6 just came out.
Phantom Hourglass (DS) outsold A Link to the Past (SNES).
A Link between World (3DS) and the two Oracles (combined) sold around 4 million units.
Hardly the 'dozens of us' you are trying to unwittingly evoke.
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Graph by Ishaan at InstallBaseForum:
For decades the original release of FFVII on PS1 was the best selling FF in the series, only recently it was edged out by FFXV.
You may be lead to think that FFXV was a great chapter, sales wise, for the series but in reality in the last 10 or so years the sales potential for big franchises grew a lot thanks to helpful factors like multipaltform development (bigger reach) and the diffusion of the digital distribution (which removes the constraints connected with physical distribution).
Consider how Zelda went from peaks of around 8 million units to Breath of the Wild selling over 30 million units (and it's still selling million of units each year).
This wasn't caused just by the intrisic quality of the game, it helped a lot that it was released in a time when it's easier to achieve such high sales compared the past that relied exclusively on physcal goods.
Or let's take as example the Resident Evil franchise, RE2 for PS1 sold-in 4.96M whereas the recent remake of RE2 (released on a plentiful of platforms: PS4, PS5, Xbox One, XSX, PC) sold-in 11.20M in just 3 years and the counter is still spinning.
Resident Event went from being the smaller series compared to Final Fantasy to being more popular because Capcom grew the series through favourable times.
Instead Final Fantasy failed to pursue a path of growth.
Something that only a few knows is that Ocarina of Time outsold Final Fantasy VII outside Japan.
You may wonder why I'm talking about it.
Take a look below, it's a quick "copy & paste" from a 2-3 years old post of mine that contains the split between Japan/abroad of the leading FF game for each generation:
Sell-in data (original releases, platforms are specified with in parenthesis)
FFVII
JPN (PS1): 4.00M
Overseas (PS1): 9.81-4.00 = 5.81M
FFX
JPN (PS2): 3.10M
Overseas (PS2): 8.60-3.10 = 5.50M
FFXIII
JPN (PS3): 1.90M
Overseas (PS3 / XB360): 6.90-1.90 = 5.50M
FFXV
JPN (PS4 / XBO): 1.20M
Overseas (PS4 / XBO / PC): 8.90-1.20 = 7.70M (FFXV PS4 / XBO has a total sell-in of 6.80M in CESA White Paper)
As you said it's important to remember that the multiplatform strategy SE adopted since FFXIII, the expansion of sales on PC (to reach developing countries markets which are primarily served by that platform) and the break through of digital sales are all factors that contribute to expand a game sales potential beyond what was possible in the '90s.
------
If you see Final Fantasy is expanding the sales outside Japan however the growth is modest whereas in Japan sales are deflating which is why the original release of FFVII on PS1 is still at the top or near the top.
Meanwhile Breath of the Wild is selling markedly more than any other past Zelda game in Japan, to the point it's guaranteed it will sell more than any other Final Fantasy in Japan which was something unthinkable just 10 years ago.
Zelda is growing fast in Japan and abroad.
As for the cause of Final Fantasy failed attempts at expanding, recently Yoshi-P summarise the identity of the Final Fantasy series as 'high budget cinematic [RPG] game'.
One could argue that such vision (and Square execution of it) didn't help FF to achieve growth.
Now Square is eyeing games like The Witcher III, which achieved sales of over 30 million units, to try to replicate the success on such scale.
For decades the original release of FFVII on PS1 was the best selling FF in the series, only recently it was edged out by FFXV.
You may be lead to think that FFXV was a great chapter, sales wise, for the series but in reality in the last 10 or so years the sales potential for big franchises grew a lot thanks to helpful factors like multipaltform development (bigger reach) and the diffusion of the digital distribution (which removes the constraints connected with physical distribution).
Consider how Zelda went from peaks of around 8 million units to Breath of the Wild selling over 30 million units (and it's still selling million of units each year).
This wasn't caused just by the intrisic quality of the game, it helped a lot that it was released in a time when it's easier to achieve such high sales compared the past that relied exclusively on physcal goods.
Or let's take as example the Resident Evil franchise, RE2 for PS1 sold-in 4.96M whereas the recent remake of RE2 (released on a plentiful of platforms: PS4, PS5, Xbox One, XSX, PC) sold-in 11.20M in just 3 years and the counter is still spinning.
Resident Event went from being the smaller series compared to Final Fantasy to being more popular because Capcom grew the series through favourable times.
Instead Final Fantasy failed to pursue a path of growth.
Something that only a few knows is that Ocarina of Time outsold Final Fantasy VII outside Japan.
You may wonder why I'm talking about it.
Take a look below, it's a quick "copy & paste" from a 2-3 years old post of mine that contains the split between Japan/abroad of the leading FF game for each generation:
Sell-in data (original releases, platforms are specified with in parenthesis)
FFVII
JPN (PS1): 4.00M
Overseas (PS1): 9.81-4.00 = 5.81M
FFX
JPN (PS2): 3.10M
Overseas (PS2): 8.60-3.10 = 5.50M
FFXIII
JPN (PS3): 1.90M
Overseas (PS3 / XB360): 6.90-1.90 = 5.50M
FFXV
JPN (PS4 / XBO): 1.20M
Overseas (PS4 / XBO / PC): 8.90-1.20 = 7.70M (FFXV PS4 / XBO has a total sell-in of 6.80M in CESA White Paper)
As you said it's important to remember that the multiplatform strategy SE adopted since FFXIII, the expansion of sales on PC (to reach developing countries markets which are primarily served by that platform) and the break through of digital sales are all factors that contribute to expand a game sales potential beyond what was possible in the '90s.
------
If you see Final Fantasy is expanding the sales outside Japan however the growth is modest whereas in Japan sales are deflating which is why the original release of FFVII on PS1 is still at the top or near the top.
Meanwhile Breath of the Wild is selling markedly more than any other past Zelda game in Japan, to the point it's guaranteed it will sell more than any other Final Fantasy in Japan which was something unthinkable just 10 years ago.
Zelda is growing fast in Japan and abroad.
As for the cause of Final Fantasy failed attempts at expanding, recently Yoshi-P summarise the identity of the Final Fantasy series as 'high budget cinematic [RPG] game'.
One could argue that such vision (and Square execution of it) didn't help FF to achieve growth.
Now Square is eyeing games like The Witcher III, which achieved sales of over 30 million units, to try to replicate the success on such scale.
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POKEYCLYDE
Member
Some things that I think take away from Final Fantasy being as successful as it could be:
Massive shifts in genre: Turn based RPG to MMO, to Action RPG.
The lows of that franchise are pretty low. 13 and 15 specifically.
Oversaturation of the JRPG market. If I want a fantastic JRPG, there are plenty of other franchises.
As for Zelda, I don't know really. BotW was revolutionary, captured a mainstream audience, had mass appeal.
Massive shifts in genre: Turn based RPG to MMO, to Action RPG.
The lows of that franchise are pretty low. 13 and 15 specifically.
Oversaturation of the JRPG market. If I want a fantastic JRPG, there are plenty of other franchises.
As for Zelda, I don't know really. BotW was revolutionary, captured a mainstream audience, had mass appeal.
Lethal01
Member
What are some things that GTA5 is doing that Zelda isn't which make it feel less empty? Is it just that they have a higher number of random NPC walking about?
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Team Andromeda
Member
Team Andromeda
Member
There are more things going on and you get the sense in the likes of GTA V that the world is carrying on about its business, even when you leave a said aera.
I got none of that in Zelda BOTW and it felt like Sea of Thieves.
Just accept it.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Then you either paid very little attention or barely touched the game at all. Animals Graze, if it rains, they move into sheltered areas. If there is lightning coming, they move out of the way. People also react to what you do in a natural and understandable way.
BotW isn't doing much different from these other games - nor did it do it any better. But to claim it is the same as Sea of Thieves is showing your own arse.
Muffdraul
Member
After Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, I wasn't really feeling like much of a Zelda fan anymore. Those games were mediocre as fuck and bored the shit out of me. Breath of the Wild was an unbelievably amazing comeback, and Tears of the Kingdom is basically an extension of it. A game hasn't gripped me by the throat like this since... I don't know how long.
Meanwhile, FF started to lose me with FFXI and FFX-2, and then FFXIII was the last straw. I thought it was going to be a return to FF's glory days, but it was the weakest FF since FFII. I played FFXV and enjoyed it though it never really felt like an FF to me. I expect the same from FFXVI. I feel absolutely zero hype for that game, but I assume it'll probably be OK.
Meanwhile, FF started to lose me with FFXI and FFX-2, and then FFXIII was the last straw. I thought it was going to be a return to FF's glory days, but it was the weakest FF since FFII. I played FFXV and enjoyed it though it never really felt like an FF to me. I expect the same from FFXVI. I feel absolutely zero hype for that game, but I assume it'll probably be OK.
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Team Andromeda
Member
I played 12 hours of the game and was totally bored. The game isn't doing anything that hasn't been done decades ago .
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
lyan
Member
They just pursued the growth in mobile as we now see their mobile segment is as large as MMO and what we consider games combined.
touchfuzzy
Member
Final Fantasy's last two big single-player games have been some of the worst of the franchise.
Zelda's last two big single-player games have been some of the best of the franchise.
I don't think it's much more compicated than that.
Zelda's last two big single-player games have been some of the best of the franchise.
I don't think it's much more compicated than that.
Team Andromeda
Member
I think 10 hours is more than enough time in any game to know if it's for you. I do love it when it comes to a Nintendo game you'll always asked have you played it and for how long ... That's goes out the window when Nintendo fans look to find fault with non Nintendo games
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
Again there is nothing wrong if the game is not for you but claiming the world is "empty" without barely playing the game or exploring is complete BS.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
When it comes to Nintendo? No. When it comes to *any* game when someone makes shit up.
It is very clear you just want to shit on Ninty though with this pathetic persecution complex of yours.
Okay, so the criticism for TOTK is literally that the world has TOO MUCH going on to the point it detracts from the central quest (you don’t have to believe me, you can read the EG review).I've never bought Zedla TOTK. I did buy BOTW.
For BOTW I can sort of understand the critique (I don’t agree but I at least get where you’re coming from); for TOTK that doesn’t apply, it’s nonsense to suggest it does.
Team Andromeda
Member
No , my point is I find the world just like Sea Of Thieves. Lovely to look at , but rather empty and dull. Both games not for me
Team Andromeda
Member
Yeah, like I saw people saying you needed to play 10 plus of Gotham Knights... So many we smashing the game despite never playing it
Team Andromeda
Member
10 hours is more than enough . I never seen people saying one needs to play 10 hours of Sonic Frontiers or Gotham Knights when people were knocking them .
I get one can't knock a Nintendo game ...
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
For huge game like BotW/TotK 10 hours is nothing, you barley explored and yet you claim the world is “empty” .
you can’t even tell how is “empty” despite so many animals, NPC and enemies around and interacting with each other. Again “empty” HOW?
unlike you I put 100+ hours in both BotW and TotK and you are dead wrong. These games faaaaaaar from being empty.
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Mate I am telling you, the criticism you have does not apply for the game you say you have not played stop arguing after that lol, you literally haven’t played TOTK (and I even accepted your criticism for BOTW, but it does not apply for TOTK)
Of course based on this I’m not sure you’re looking for an actual discussion as much as you want to have a persecution complex about evil Nintendo and their evil fans (or whatever)
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Different games, different sizes. 10 hours is plenty of time for a game like Gotham. Not so for Zelda which is around 100-150 hours.
Try again.
Draxon Gamer
Banned
Jrpg or FF fans don't pretend other rpgs never happened or they all spawned from Final Fantasy or all owe to Final Fantasy in some fashion while downplaying or erasing contemporaries to create a perceived high status and role of importance to all games within the genre in question.
However, Nintendo unlike Square with Final Fantasy XIII, did not make the mindnumbing decision to triple down with two more sequels to Skyward Sword so...
However, Nintendo unlike Square with Final Fantasy XIII, did not make the mindnumbing decision to triple down with two more sequels to Skyward Sword so...
Team Andromeda
Member
I'll remember that next time you knock a game .
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
MAX PAYMENT
Member
Wasn't BOTW a product of the criticism of skyward sword for being far, far too linear?
Marvel14
Banned
Except 90% of buildings (and there are hundreds and hundreds of them) in GTAV are empty shells you can't go into and explore. There is nothing in BOTW's map that is just a facade with nothing meaningful within it.
I think what you mean is that the level of npc interactions in GTAV is much denser which is right ....it's so good it gives you the illusion that the world is everywhere bustling and alive. But if you look at it objectively,.all those empty shell buildings make for a very empty world indeed and much more so than BOTW.
You just don't really notice it because you and the NPCs are kept mostly to roads.
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Team Andromeda
Member
And If I said that about GTA V. I'm sure I'll be asked 'Have you played it' ' you've only just touched on it'
What I mean is in a game like say GTA 5 or Far Cry 5 you can sense of living breathing world that carries on doing its own stuff if you're in the section of the map or not
. I never got that feeling in the likes of BOTW or SOT.
BOTW is not going anything we haven't seen before in an Openworld game.
LarsQMorient
Neo Member
Final Fantasy has mobile games.
Kataploom
Gold Member
Maybe you're just looking for stuff that the game don't have the way you want it? I don't consider BOTW empty nor boring because there are many stuff happening at every moment, but seems like those things don't align with some people's expectations of "events", they just don't "get" what's going on in the game that others like me and
Danjin44
can see and enjoy.Doesn't make the game empty though, it's just different expectations of what each person want from the game.
Team Andromeda
Member
Maybe you're just looking for stuff that the game don't have the way you want it? I don't consider BOTW empty nor boring because there are many stuff happening at every moment, but seems like those things don't align with some people's expectations of "events", they just don't "get" what's going on in the game that others like me and
Doesn't make the game empty though, it's just different expectations of what each person want from the game.
People also enjoyed Sea of Thieves doesn't mean I have to. I found both game worlds rather dull.
Disco Dave
Member
I enjoyed Final Fantasy 15 over Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. Critic reviews are meaningless when it comes to certain IP.
Ya, like Final Fantasy, that game has an 81 on MC which is unbelievable sincd it was literally unfinished. No point trusting critic reviews for FF
Hardensoul
Member
I really laugh when people say those things. It could also be said critics rate certain games lower do to that type of game.
It’s best to weigh what the paise are criticism are and decide if they apply to your taste.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Nah, its best to ignore metacritic/opencritic entirely.