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[Jin34]

The DS got off to a really slow start. I'd be surprised if it didn't have a stronger launch coming off that brand's success. But stateside, there's virtually no hype for 3DS. It's launch seems like an afterthought, to Nintedno as well, because they couldn't be bothered to muster decent 1st party support.

You must have forgotten the DS launch, what you said is already better than the DS had it. Back then it was all Nintendo is going Sega and everyone fapping about the PSP' power, screen and style; how it would take handhelds out of the ghetto. Meanwhile the DS had no memorable launch games that I remember and the original design looked like crap.

BTW you have to be more clear on what you mean by comparative failure. Because if what you mean is the 3DS won't sell more than the soon to be #1 selling system of all time then well way to go out on a limb there.

 

[FoneBone]

1) An inability to garner third party support, particularly Western. This does not seem to be remedied at all by the 3DS, which continues to lack major support from the large Western publishers.

I agree with your other points, but I'm not seeing how this is Nintendo's fault. Since when have "large Western publishers" ever taken handheld development seriously?

 

[AceBandage]

Nintendo's model isn't sustainable. They read the market right and got lucky, partly out of desperation, but everything they've done for the past couple years indicates they've lost touch. They got new people interested in gaming, but they're incapable of sustaining that interest and think shitty, poorly functioning gimmicks (3DS 3D) are the way to keep people on board. Novelty wears off and Sony and Microsoft will likely do motion controls or whatever other schtick Nintendo tacks on better. The minimalist Mii aesthetic that worked for Wii will not work for its successor, but Nintendo has printed too much money to ditch it.

See, this is amusing!
Well, kind of, it if hadn't been done to death.
Got lucky, oh you.

 

[Alexios]

Add to this, now, an inability to perceive the value of low end development models as a supplement to higher end models.

Again, they aren't doing this. They have indie-friendly services. Yes, small companies with 1-5-10 or more people are still indies. Just not bottom of the barrel friendly. You can always go even lower. Why does Apple want $100? Why do they require you to develop on a Mac? Let's get the pitchforks until they lower that to $1 or free and get development tools for all OS out there because somewhere, some starving linux kids with brilliant ideas can't put their stuff on iOS as things are now. Etc.

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

Sounds like quality control to me.

We have enough shitty games on Wiiware as it is.

 

[PoliceCop]

He knows, that's why he said the system AFTER the 3DS, so the next-next-gen, lol. Yet stuck with next-gen for Wii successor. >_>

Lol? They've already said they held back unannounced titles for 3rd parties. Where's the sense in releasing a title like say, Super Mario, that can potentially do 10 million in sales, during the launch window when you can only provide a few hundred thousand systems that will most likely sellout by the built-in features and games alone? That's really the reason most console launches suck in terms of games with ports and other not so expensive productions...

They held back a port of Ocarina. Which they should have launched with, but the fact that they feel the need to fuck their consumers over to better relations with 3rd parties sort of shows the sad state of things. Which is weird, because the DS was pretty friendly for 3rd parties, but there's markedly less excitement for the 3DS, probably because its defining feature is shoddy, headache inducing, and contingent upon the player maintaining a perfect viewing angle.

They should have called it the Nintendo 3D(provided you hold it at the exact angle we prescribe and aren't prone to or averse to headaches or under the age of 7)S. Throw in the bad battery life and I'm shocked anyone thought this system was a good idea.

 

[Deku]

An indie according to Nintendo has a business adress and trappings of a business.

A garage dev would be some dude with an idea hacking it on his PC and working for nothing.

Conflating the two is easy because it makes what was a targeted remark more omnimous than it is and it feeds into various hypothesis as to why Nintendo is in trouble.

But the fact Fils-Aime has the very nuanced view of what qualifies as a dev they will work with and a dev they won't is a pretty good sign they have some understanding of what they want to pursue and target in terms of digitial content.

And the vast majority of the best selling smartphone games come form indies, with a few garage hits, but they almost never follow up.

Rovio and popcaps of this world will have a seat at the table.

 

[AceBandage]

They held back a port of Ocarina. Which they should have launched with, but the fact that they feel the need to fuck their consumers over to better relations with 3rd parties sort of shows the sad state of things. Which is weird, because the DS was pretty friendly for 3rd parties, but there's markedly less excitement for the 3DS, probably because its defining feature is shoddy, headache inducing, and contingent upon the player maintaining a perfect viewing angle.

They should have called it the Nintendo 3D(provided you hold it at the exact angle we prescribe and aren't prone to or averse to headaches or under the age of 7)S. Throw in the bad battery life and I'm shocked anyone thought this system was a good idea.

Hilarious.

 

[Pureauthor]

I agree with your other points, but I'm not seeing how this is Nintendo's fault. Since when have "large Western publishers" ever taken handheld development seriously?

Regardless of whether or not it's Nintendo's fault, it's still a weakness that may or may not bite them in the ass at an unspecified point in the future. That's Opiate's point.

because the DS was pretty friendly for 3rd parties, but there's markedly less excitement for the 3DS

Factually wrong. As of the DS and 3DS' respective launches, the amount of 3rd party support announced for the 3DS far outstrips the DS.

 

[FoneBone]

They held back a port of Ocarina. Which they should have launched with, but the fact that they feel the need to fuck their consumers over to better relations with 3rd parties sort of shows the sad state of things. Which is weird, because the DS was pretty friendly for 3rd parties, but there's markedly less excitement for the 3DS, probably because its defining feature is shoddy, headache inducing, and contingent upon the player maintaining a perfect viewing angle.

They should have called it the Nintendo 3D(provided you hold it at the exact angle we prescribe and aren't prone to or averse to headaches or under the age of 7)S. Throw in the bad battery life and I'm shocked anyone thought this system was a good idea.

I'm getting late-2004 flashbacks.

 

[boomerisgod]

Nintendo's model isn't sustainable. They read the market right and got lucky, partly out of desperation, but everything they've done for the past couple years indicates they've lost touch. They got new people interested in gaming, but they're incapable of sustaining that interest and think shitty, poorly functioning gimmicks (3DS 3D) are the way to keep people on board. Novelty wears off and Sony and Microsoft will likely do motion controls or whatever other schtick Nintendo tacks on better. The minimalist Mii aesthetic that worked for Wii will not work for its successor, but Nintendo has printed too much money to ditch it.

Have you ever played Move? It is awful and came out like 4 years after the Wii. I sold mine a few days after buying it. Also, most people think the 3d in the 3ds works well. It just isn't for everybody. I personally like what I have tried out so far on the 3ds.


Yeah , the mii stuff sucks. I wish they'd get rid of it right away.

 

[Woffls]

I'm not sure why some posters continue to conflate the two.

Probably because the OP and linked article practically ignore the fact Nintendo has made the distinction between indie and garage.

Basically Nintendo are saying they don't want part-timers clogging up space on their eShop, which is fair because it's their platform. If garage developers don't like it, you know what, they can go somewhere else. If it's truly that much of an issue, then we'll see tons and tons of incredible garage developed games on other formats, and you'll all go and buy them, right?

@PoliceCop Their "gimmick" has lasted nearly 5 years. That's a standard console cycle. Oh, it also changed the industry. I call a business model based on distribution methods instead of content unsustainable.

And they held back Ocarina so that 3rd parties could get a look in for a change. And it worked, because I wouldn't otherwise be buying Ridge Racer. I bet you're one of those people who complains about Nintendo dominating their platform.

 

[BY2K]

This thread is getting hilarious by the minute.

 

[Tiktaalik]

Nintendo treating developers like shit is nothing new.

What is new (but also kind of old) is a development system that allows small teams to create and sell software without publishers, retail presence or anything else that game makers required for the last 20 years.

Nintendo is pulling old guard here. They are rejecting this new development system. Their stance is that the Nintendo ecosystem is better served by the established methods of the NES->Wii era. Development by professionals. Big teams, big money, standardized premium pricing, limited retail access.

Which raises the question: how is Nintendo going to convince the public that it's right? The same public that has turned iDevice apps into the new NES. In the 80s news stories were written about Mario, now they're written about Angry Birds. "Garage games" are the software that's straddling demographics, capturing the public eye and causing new talent to rethink the way they're going to enter the industry (I'm guessing on that last one.)

Nintendo's tactic here seems short sighted. They're the cable company, desperately looking for ways to slow down the market penetration of Netflix. The music industry, desperately trying to smother MP3 in the crib.

These strategies never work. An audience can't be strong armed into consuming what the company wants to make. The company needs to adapt to consumer needs, or else face irrelevance.

You're guessing right. From my experience there's a significant "bail out" feeling in the industry right now. There are folks that are quitting their jobs at AAA development to work at smaller iPhone and Facebook oriented startups and those that are staying at their comfortable, steady jobs, are working on iPhone projects in their spare time.

I think what is most significant is that before, if some big company lost a big project and laid off a lot of folks, you'd have the creme of the crop of those unlucky experienced professionals decide to create their own studio, and often they'd start in the portable area with Nintendo. Now I don't think anyone in similar situations is deciding to go first thing to Nintendo to ask for 3DS dev kits. Instead they're simply coding something for Facebook or paying the $99 to be an Apple dev.

Without new startup independent parties entering the traditional console gaming space there's a real chance of stagnation.

 

[Opiate]

I agree with your other points, but I'm not seeing how this is Nintendo's fault. Since when have "large Western publishers" ever taken handheld development seriously?

Here's a consideration: perhaps focusing so heavily on handhelds is, in itself, publisher unfriendly.

It's pretty clear what Publishers want -- a generic console box that they can dump all their games on without effort. It's why the PS3 rarely gets games that actually take advantage of its strengths over the 360: most publishers have little interest in exploiting the specific, unique advantages of any specific platform. They want a lowest common denominator. The ideal third party platform needs to have generic power (i.e. about 360 levels, today), have a generic controller, and have generic networking features. Any idiosyncrasies mean that porting requires more effort and more money -- or even worse, may require the game to be built exclusively for that system from the ground up.

This is one of the reasons why support for the PSP was so strong to start with: not only was Sony's name already well respected by third party publishers, but also it could be treated like a generic console box that just so happened to be a handheld. They like that.

By the very act of producing handhelds, and also trying to make those handhelds distinct and particularly handheld-y, Nintendo is being unfriendly to EA/Take2/Ubisoft/Activision. I honestly see no solution to this problem, because this process (making unique handheld platforms) is also Nintendo's core strength, so they certainly aren't abandoning it anytime soon.

In some ways, I genuinely believe that Nintendo and third party's differences are unresolvable forever. Nintendo wants to make unique, distinct hardware that differentiates itself; third parties want generic, grey boxes that have as few distinguishing features as possible.

 

[Gospel]

Bob's Game was a precedent for this. This was foreshadowed upon Nintendo! If only you had given Bob a devkit then yuu wouldn't be in this mess!

 

[PoliceCop]

I'm getting late-2004 flashbacks.

Me too. Most of the people in here defending Nintendo remind me of the one's who defended the Gamecube's lack of online because they could play Double Dash through archaic, cumbersome LAN "tunneling", even though they didn't personally do it because the process was too cumbersome and the results sucked.

 

[Tiktaalik]

I don't think there is all that clear of a line between amateur bedroom coder and indie game business.

What is the line? Having one employee?

I'd suspect that once an amateur bedroom coder even gets a whiff of success he's gonna switch over to trying to make a business of it.

 

[FoneBone]

This is one of the reasons why support for the PSP was so strong to start with: not only was Sony's name already well respected by third party publishers, but also it could be treated like a generic console box that just so happened to be a handheld.

PSP third-party support was strong? The PSP GTAs come to mind as a good example, but other than that it's mostly crappy console ports and spinoffs.

I'm not expecting much better on NGP or 3DS... we've already had at least one developer report that many a publisher isn't even budgeting twice what they did on the previous generation of handhelds. Guess where that leaves things?

 

[MarshMellow96]

Again, they aren't doing this. They have indie-friendly services. Yes, small companies with 1-5-10 or more people are still indies. Just not bottom of the barrel friendly. You can always go even lower. Why does Apple want $100? Why do they require you to develop on a Mac? Let's get the pitchforks until they lower that to $1 or free and get development tools for all OS out there because somewhere, some starving linux kids with brilliant ideas can't put their stuff on iOS as things are now. Etc.

Awesome post.

 

[Alexios]

Wops, wrong button... Guess I'm done here.

 

[NewFresh]

Me too. Most of the people in here defending Nintendo remind me of the one's who defended the Gamecube's lack of online because they could play Double Dash through archaic, cumbersome LAN "tunneling", even though they didn't personally do it because the process was too cumbersome and the results sucked.

I think the flashbacks are because of your points.

 

[AceBandage]

I think the flashbacks are because of your points.

Maybe his posts are actually from 2004, but they're being translated to relate to the situation today!

 

[PoliceCop]

Maybe his posts are actually from 2004, but they're being translated to relate to the situation today!

Man, Gamecube has great online, doesn't it? I love tunneling. I can't wait to see what Nibris does with Sadness too. And then there's Game Zero. Just wait, just you wait...

-Policecop

 

[AceBandage]

Man, Gamecube had great online, doesn't it? I love tunneling. I can't wait to see what Nibris does with Sadness too. And then there's Game Zero. Just wait, just you wait...

-Policecop

No wait, he's broken again.

 

[freddy]

Man, Gamecube has great online, doesn't it? I love tunneling. I can't wait to see what Nibris does with Sadness too. And then there's Game Zero. Just wait, just you wait...

-Policecop

Oh boy...

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Here's a consideration: perhaps focusing so heavily on handhelds is, in itself, publisher unfriendly.

It's pretty clear what Publishers want -- a generic console box that they can dump all their games on without effort. It's why the PS3 rarely gets games that actually take advantage of its strengths over the 360: most publishers have little interest in exploiting the specific, unique advantages of any specific platform. They want a lowest common denominator. The ideal third party platform needs to have generic power (i.e. about 360 levels, today), have a generic controller, and have generic networking features. Any idiosyncrasies mean that porting requires more effort and more money -- or even worse, may require the game to be built exclusively for that system from the ground up.

This is one of the reasons why support for the PSP was so strong to start with: not only was Sony's name already well respected by third party publishers, but also it could be treated like a generic console box that just so happened to be a handheld. They like that.

By the very act of producing handhelds, and also trying to make those handhelds distinct and particularly handheld-y, Nintendo is being unfriendly to EA/Take2/Ubisoft/Activision. I honestly see no solution to this problem, because this process (making unique handheld platforms) is also Nintendo's core strength, so they certainly aren't abandoning it anytime soon.

In some ways, I genuinely believe that Nintendo and third party's differences are unresolvable forever. Nintendo wants to make unique, distinct hardware that differentiates itself; third parties want generic, grey boxes that have as few distinguishing features as possible.

How so? Honest question. I did not hear anything about it.

 

[Gospel]

Man, Gamecube has great online, doesn't it? I love tunneling. I can't wait to see what Nibris does with Sadness too. And then there's Game Zero. Just wait, just you wait...

-Policecop

why the dick do you sig your posts we know who you are

 

[AceBandage]

why the dick do you sig your posts we know who you are

He's a gimmick account.

 

[Gospel]

He's a gimmick account.

and he doesn't even have a cool avatar. man, what a waste

 

[FoneBone]

How so? Honest question. I did not hear anything about it.

I don't think you read his post. He's not talking about Nintendo being actively unfriendly, but rather that handheld development doesn't fit into the PS3/360 development model.

 

[freddy]

I don't think you read his post. He's not talking about Nintendo being actively unfriendly, but rather that handheld development doesn't fit into the PS3/360 development model.

Unless they can squeeze Unreal engine on it, so developers can copy/paste.

 

[PoliceCop]

He's a gimmick account.

I don't know how this kind of cyber-bullying is permitted on GAF. It'd be like me telling everyone you're a blindly loyal Nintendo fanboy after almost all of your posts.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

I don't think you read his post. He's not talking about Nintendo being actively unfriendly, but rather that handheld development doesn't fit into the PS3/360 development model.

I see. I misunderstood his post.

 

[Instro]

Id be interested to see the numbers on how well premium priced games($10+) on ios devices compete with $1 apps.

Personally I'm much more interested in downloadable titles from teams like Gaijin Games, Nicalis, and WayForward, than extremely cheap titles. The best indi games I've played over the years were certainly not $1 either. If its a case where these premium titles dont coexist well with the low priced stuff, perhaps it is better to leave the $1 apps to Apple and keep the three console manufacturers services for higher priced dl titles.

 

[rpmurphy]

Nintendo's model isn't sustainable. They read the market right and got lucky, partly out of desperation, but everything they've done for the past couple years indicates they've lost touch. They got new people interested in gaming, but they're incapable of sustaining that interest and think shitty, poorly functioning gimmicks (3DS 3D) are the way to keep people on board. Novelty wears off and Sony and Microsoft will likely do motion controls or whatever other schtick Nintendo tacks on better. The minimalist Mii aesthetic that worked for Wii will not work for its successor, but Nintendo has printed too much money to ditch it.

Lost touch with who? Why not consider that the Wii has made strong sellers in the past couple years with games that focus on the console strengths of local multiplayer and motion gaming, such as NSMB Wii and Just Dance? Sony still struggles at this and MS have only just got their feet wet.

Using gimmicks and developing software that define interesting uses of those gimmicks in order to define a different console is Nintendo's current mode of success, and that's not being followed by Sony or MS yet. They are sure to stand out next generation for that reason alone.

 

[NewFresh]

Unless they can squeeze Unreal engine on it, so developers can copy/paste.

We know that's not happening on the 3DS

 

[jman2050]

I don't know how this kind of cyber-bullying is permitted on GAF. It'd be like me telling everyone you're a blindly loyal Nintendo fanboy after almost all of your posts.

When you're blatantly wrong, people will respond as such. That's the way of any internet forum.

 

[PoliceCop]

Please point out where I'm blatantly wrong.

 

[Pureauthor]

Please point out where I'm blatantly wrong.

I did. Earlier. The claim that 3DS at launch somehow has less 3rd party support that DS at launch is simply factually wrong.

 

[jman2050]

Please point out where I'm blatantly wrong.

I could quote every post you've made in this thread so far but that would take too long.

 

[RagnarokX]

Satoshi Tajiri was essentially a "garage developer" when he pitched the concept for Pokemon to Nintendo, wasn't he?

 

[AceBandage]

Satoshi Tajiri was essentially a "garage developer" when he pitched the concept for Pokemon to Nintendo, wasn't he?

No.
He had pitched/worked on other games before and even helped with TLoZ.

 

[BlazeHedgehog]

To me, this is just the big, slow moving elephant called Nintendo with their typical line of "We don't invest in emerging markets unless it was our idea first."

Stuff like XBL Indie games are very progressive steps forward in empowering garage developers, but Nintendo's not going to do it until it's unavoidably essential for them to do so, like online play was.

It sucks for indie developers wanting to get their game on to every possible platform, but probably isn't a huge loss for Nintendo just yet.

 

[tetrisgrammaton]

Kind of a shame, considering how poorly Nintendo is doing in the download section of their business.

The problem with garage developers is that there are a lot of weeds choking out the good stuff. It's in need of a curator. If someone like Nintendo would step up and say "hey, these are the games we really like," it would be good for the publisher and the developer. Instead they just publish a ton of shit on their download service and when the odd good game appears, no one cares.

Of course complaining about Nintendo's download service is like pissing in the wind.

Microsoft does a somewhat better job at this. Really pushing games like Limbo and Meat Boy. The Indies section is ok, but community ratings and best sellers suck for indications at what games are fun. I should never ever have to search to find Aban Hawkins and the 1000 Spikes. There should be a big bright arrow saying this game is awesome.

 

[freddy]

To me, this is just the big, slow moving elephant called Nintendo with their typical line of "We don't invest in emerging markets unless it was our idea first."

Stuff like XBL Indie games are very progressive steps forward in empowering garage developers, but Nintendo's not going to do it until it's unavoidably essential for them to do so, like online play was.

It sucks for indie developers wanting to get their game on to every possible platform, but probably isn't a huge loss for Nintendo just yet.

Yea I think(hope) they have bigger fish to fry such as providing decent online infrastructure and making it easier for developers to land games on their system day and date with their competitors platforms. It would be a nice option for us but would detract from Nintendos core business which is selling their own software at higher prices.

 

[PoliceCop]

I could quote every post you've made in this thread so far but that would take too long.

Quote one and give a detailed reasoning as to how I am blatantly incorrect.

Yours truly,

Policecop

 

[Metal Gear?!]

Why are you mad about that quote? He's saying it's cool when a good indie game comes out, but Nintendo doesn't want to do an iPod style app store. That's it.

Why does everyone expect Nintendo to be Apple now? Why is Nintendo in the wrong for continuing to do their own thing?

In this business you either lead, follow, or get out of the way. This is them getting out of the way.

 

[Quadrangulum]

I cannot understand this as a noteworthy weakness. By its very nature, it is impossible to "miss out" on this new market since its tendency is to proliferate to as many platforms as possible; this market is not going to restrain itself to, or even exist primarily on, whatever outfits open up first. Nintendo will still have its popular systems so the framework for an important distribution system is already there. If not courting these kinds of developers really proves to be such a severe liability, it seems a simple matter to adapt.

 

[Woo-Fu]

Nintendo would be perfectly happy if the only software you ever bought for nintendo hardware was produced by a Nintendo studio.