To me, this is just the big, slow moving elephant called Nintendo with their typical line of "We don't invest in emerging markets unless it was our idea first."
Stuff like XBL Indie games are very progressive steps forward in empowering garage developers, but Nintendo's not going to do it until it's unavoidably essential for them to do so, like online play was.
It sucks for indie developers wanting to get their game on to every possible platform, but probably isn't a huge loss for Nintendo just yet.
Again this isn't about indie developers. And last I heard, Indies on XBL is precisely the kind of indie system that Nintendo might have envisioned.
Taking too much and giving too little.
I'll concede that Nintendo has been slow for better or worse to really tap into digital download market.
Though given my strong reservations about the free for all iOS model, it's probably not the worst thing they can do.
They realize their Ware services have not lived up to their potential. Improving that and giving the indies who have so far published titles on that platform more exposure is the right step forward.
Nintendo loves companies developing indie games (Mojang, 2DBoy, Amanita Design, Gajin Games, The Behemoth).
Nintendo hates individual persons wanting to develop indie games (Bob).
Basically, they don't want to help out the guy in the garage who has a great idea, they want to help out the small registered company with offices salaries, a business plan and a great idea.
I personally like the idea of helping out the littlest of little guys (like XBLIG - lots of shit, with more shit buried beneath, some more shit under that and some shit-covered gems in the rough in there somewhere), but I can see how a conservative Japanese company like Nintendo would be slow picking such trends up.
people keep holding up XBLIG as some sort of standard, but everything I've seen of that leads me to believe that 95% of those games are absolute garbage that makes the latest dsiware imagine babiez clone look like mario galaxy. yeah occasionally there's something cool like breath of death or whatever, but does anyone think what nintendo's online system needs is WAY MORE TRASH?
people keep holding up XBLIG as some sort of standard, but everything I've seen of that leads me to believe that 95% of those games are absolute garbage that makes the latest dsiware imagine babiez clone look like mario galaxy. yeah occasionally there's something cool like breath of death or whatever, but does anyone think what nintendo's online system needs is WAY MORE TRASH?
VBlank (XBLA/WiiWare), which is doing Retro City Rampage is one person (Brian Provinciano) plus some hired guns to assist him on stuff he's not that good at (ie. music). So is this an indie company or an amateur bedroom coder? If there's a line of differentiation here it's pretty fuzzy. Personally I see no difference.
people keep holding up XBLIG as some sort of standard, but everything I've seen of that leads me to believe that 95% of those games are absolute garbage that makes the latest dsiware imagine babiez clone look like mario galaxy. yeah occasionally there's something cool like breath of death or whatever, but does anyone think what nintendo's online system needs is WAY MORE TRASH?
99%, actually. But it's still another avenue for people to put their stuff on besides putting it out on the Internet.
Nintendo pushes for professionalism and quality in their business dealings. That doesn't translate to game quality, but that's how they do things.
Tiktaalik said:
VBlank (XBLA/WiiWare), which is doing Retro City Rampage is one person (Brian Provinciano) plus some hired guns to assist him on stuff he's not that good at (ie. music). So is this an indie company or an amateur bedroom coder? If there's a line of differentiation here it's pretty fuzzy. Personally I see no difference.
VBlank (XBLA/WiiWare), which is doing Retro City Rampage is one person (Brian Provinciano) plus some hired guns to assist him on stuff he's not that good at (ie. music). So is this an indie company or an amateur bedroom coder? If there's a line of differentiation here it's pretty fuzzy. Personally I see no difference.
VBlank (XBLA/WiiWare), which is doing Retro City Rampage is one person (Brian Provinciano) plus some hired guns to assist him on stuff he's not that good at (ie. music). So is this an indie company or an amateur bedroom coder? If there's a line of differentiation here it's pretty fuzzy. Personally I see no difference.
What I'm trying to get across is that the gap between these concepts is quite small and superficial.
I think that it's fine that Nintendo doesn't want to throw open the gates on the DSi store and allow to whatever crap someone can throw together in a weekend, but at the same time I still think that Nintendo is being too restrictive with whether or not one can develop for the platform.
I thought Nintendo actually had the lowest barrier for entry among the 3 hardware makers? What are costs for PS3, PSP and (full) 360 SDKs compared to Wii, DS and 3DS?
In terms of actual content, I'm pretty sure Nintendo also enforces the least restrictions. So long as your title meets lotcheck and doesn't get a M (or equivalent) rating, you can publish pretty much anything you want on a Nintendo system (which isn't the case for Microsoft or Sony I believe).
That's incorrect. Nintendo would gladly approve 300 shitty massage games if they were all coming from properly registered game development companies.
Tiktaalik said:
What I'm trying to get across is that the gap between these concepts is quite small and superficial.
I think that it's fine that Nintendo doesn't want to throw open the gates on the DSi store and allow to whatever crap someone can throw together in a weekend, but at the same time I still think that Nintendo is being too restrictive with whether or not one can develop for the platform.
The difference is a technicality. Registering a company and renting/buying an office to work out of. That's pretty much all it takes as far as I'm aware.
Whoever's not willing to make that step with his great game idea, Nintendo's not interested in.
Not saying I condone that, but I think looking at it from Nintendo's perspective, these aren't unreasonable requests.
I thought Nintendo actually had the lowest barrier for entry among the 3 hardware makers? What are costs for PS3, PSP and (full) 360 SDKs compared to Wii, DS and 3DS?
Not even close. On the 360 you can easily (legally) develop for $120/year using the XNA kit (hell, there are even some 3rd party tools) and go through XBLIG. (The market itself has some huge problems, but it's something, and if you publish enough you can develop the kind of funds and relationships to get titles shipped as full XBLA titles)
Sony and Nintendo require you to have a business and business address to even talk let alone rig together some sort of basic path to development. It's entirely possible Nintendo has some cheap kits these days but if you need to run a studio first then the financial picture is much higher than you'd think.
Brian is a pretty special case; he has been a lead coder for retail games for years (and has been working on RCR for quite some time), giving him the cred needed to at least approach the big guys. Most garage developers are not going to have that kind of history.
I think what Tiktaalik is getting at is that it's fine for Nintendo to really control their marketplace, but it would be great if they at least give garage devs a cheap and easy way to develop software that could be proposed to Nintendo....
...Yeah, that's basically the iOS App Store. (Apple gets to be as picky as they want, but devs can develop as much private-use-only stuff as they want)
Here's the minor changes I think Nintendo should make. They can continue to exert quality control over their platform, but at the same time encourage people to be interested in it, and keep talented developers on their side instead of having them go and make iOS games by default (which is becoming the norm).
1. Remove unnecessary clauses regarding having your place of businessness not be your residence. It's an artificial barrier and removing it recognizes that many great ideas come from hungry startups fueling themselves on ramen and dreams. It's an established thought in the tech startup industry that companies shouldn't be wasting money on offices. Why should games be different?
2. Create some way for folks to cheaply create some undistributed neat demos that make use of real Nintendo APIs. Remove the barriers for entry for simply playing around with Nintendo tech and Nintendo kits but maintain barriers on public publishing. If someone is able to hack together something really great that has potential, maybe Nintendo should partner with them to do what is necessary to make it into a game that can be a success on the DSi store.
Once upon a time Nintendo partnered with Argonaut software and they jointly created a lot of great games. Argonaut was a real company with a real office, but it was also a very small company. I feel like this scenario wouldn't exist today, as companies would now find it easier to make a Facebook or iOS oriented startup. I think Nintendo should make changes to their strategy to ensure that small companies still have Nintendo on their radar as a possible publishing partner instead of immediately focusing on iOS as the easiest default option.
edit: I'm using the expression "company" here, but I think anything can be a company. I would consider me and my artist friend working out of my apartment to be a genuine company.
I thought this was old news considering I saw a similar topic in TVTropes forums a month ago (they mistook it as Reggie knocking down Steam sales, hilariously enough).
Here's the minor changes I think Nintendo should make. They can continue to exert quality control over their platform, but at the same time encourage people to be interested in it, and keep talented developers on their side instead of having them go and make iOS games by default (which is becoming the norm).
1. Remove unnecessary clauses regarding having your place of businessness not be your residence. It's an artificial barrier and removing it recognizes that many great ideas come from hungry startups fueling themselves on ramen and dreams. It's an established thought in the tech startup industry that companies shouldn't be wasting money on offices. Why should games be different?
2. Create some way for folks to cheaply create some undistributed neat demos that make use of real Nintendo APIs. Remove the barriers for entry for simply playing around with Nintendo tech and Nintendo kits but maintain barriers on public publishing. If someone is able to hack together something really great that has potential, maybe Nintendo should partner with them to do what is necessary to make it into a game that can be a success on the DSi store.
Once upon a time Nintendo partnered with Argonaut software and they jointly created a lot of great games. Argonaut was a real company with a real office, but it was also a very small company. I feel like this scenario wouldn't exist today, as companies would now find it easier to make a Facebook or iOS oriented startup. I think Nintendo should make changes to their strategy to ensure that small companies still have Nintendo on their radar as a possible publishing partner instead of immediately focusing on iOS as the easiest default option.
edit: I'm using the expression "company" here, but I think anything can be a company. I would consider me and my artist friend working out of my apartment to be a genuine company.
I like how nonchalantly you toss that one in. Have a dedicated studio space. You know, just go rent an office in a corporate park somewhere. God, it's only like $5,000 a month.
I recently looked into leasing some office/warehouse space to use as a photography studio. The cheapest I found was over $1,000 a month for something barebones. Plus utilities. Plus furniture. Plus insurance. Plus equipment.
It's also completely unnecessary for a tech startup (which I would consider an indie dev to be similar to) considering how many successful businesses have been launched from peoples' homes or garages. Apple, for starters.
Not even close. On the 360 you can easily (legally) develop for $120/year using the XNA kit (hell, there are even some 3rd party tools) and go through XBLIG. (The market itself has some huge problems, but it's something, and if you publish enough you can develop the kind of funds and relationships to get titles shipped as full XBLA titles)
Sony and Nintendo require you to have a business and business address to even talk let alone rig together some sort of basic path to development. It's entirely possible Nintendo has some cheap kits these days but if you need to run a studio first then the financial picture is much higher than you'd think.
I wasn't talking XNA/Indies, but rather the full 360 SDK and license fees. I'm aware of the former, but it seems extremely walled off and has huge visibility issues.
Maybe Nintendo (and Sony) could/should offer equivalent services, but that's not what I was really asking about.
Oh, I agree. I love my DS and I intend to get a 3DS eventually; I've spoken very positively about Infinity Blade. I think the best possible outcome for me is that I can eventually get both cheap and moderately expensive games on both iOS and 3DS.
Jin34 said:
Charlequin brings up some real points of criticisms about aspects of their strategies but it gets old over the years to hear what new hot thing is Nintendo's doom.
Just for the record, from the debut of the DS onwards, I have yet to see anything I'm convinced will be the "doom" of Nintendo, especially since their conservative fiscal approach makes it very hard for them to actually get into trouble. I pick on Nintendo's strategy all the time, but it's just because I think they've made a lot of unforced errors that limited the amount of success they enjoyed.
Opiate said:
However, I could point to weaknesses in Sony and Microsoft's strategies (Sony's apparent inability to strongly innovate with hardware, Microsoft's dearth of first party studios) that could also be huge weaknesses in the next generation, so Nintendo isn't alone here.
Yup. I think all three game platform holders have made notable mistakes over the last seven years and none of them have handled their businesses optimally.
I do actually think Apple has yet to make a meaningful mistake in the game market, but a big part of it is that their strategy is to specifically spend almost no money and no effort becoming a "game company" like the other three.
Despite this claim that Nintendo doesn't like garbage developers, there sure are a lot of shovelware titles cluttering the shelves in the DS and Wii sections of my local game shops. It was like looking for a needle in a haystack when I was trying to find a copy of Radiant Historia amidst all the crap.
They're going to make it easier and enjoyable to browse the available games, with videos and demos (on a per game basis rather than across the whole service like on the Wii) being some of the biggest additions. Those alone I think will make it better than some mobile app markets *cough* Android *cough*... It has the potential to be a successful downloadable market if the games hold up and consumers take interest.
They could've done much better things on WiiWare, the official crap channel for downloadable software this year. The demos really show us why, it's only reasonable why Nintendo wants to take them down (except for a few exceptions).
I would've loved to see Broken Sword 2 on WiiWare...but not with Nintendo...
They could've done much better things on WiiWare, the official crap channel for downloadable software this year. The demos really show us why, it's only reasonable why Nintendo wants to take them down (except for a few exceptions).
I would've loved to see Broken Sword 2 on WiiWare...but not with Nintendo...
Again this isn't about indie developers. And last I heard, Indies on XBL is precisely the kind of indie system that Nintendo might have envisioned.
Taking too much and giving too little.
I'll concede that Nintendo has been slow for better or worse to really tap into digital download market.
Though given my strong reservations about the free for all iOS model, it's probably not the worst thing they can do.
They realize their Ware services have not lived up to their potential. Improving that and giving the indies who have so far published titles on that platform more exposure is the right step forward.
That's kind of what I mean, though. Nintendo's big deal about avoiding online play is that it would cost too much in R&D and maintenance and they wanted to wait until it was more profitable for them to do so.
Microsoft, on the other hand, poured millions of dollars in to developing the Xbox Live platform, figuring out the types of features that players wanted, how they wanted them, so on and so forth. I don't think Microsoft has figured everything out quite yet, but they've gotten this far enough along that it's silly to think about a game platform without some kind of dashboard-level friends list hub thing, and only now are we seeing Nintendo follow through with something like that on the 3DS.
Yeah, right now Xbox Indies is a money pit for Microsoft, but it's a new frontier on consoles. If there are concerted efforts to really keep at it and build it up, in five years that kind of feature could be the norm. But until that day, Nintendo's going to blow it off, because that's what they do - unless they get there first.
Nintendo has gotten out of the business of being a direct competitor because they know when it comes down to it, dollar for dollar, they'll probably get squashed like a bug by a company as large as Microsoft or Sony. Rather than have a money war, they'll take things in a completely different direction and let the guys with all the money play catch-up.
Only when something like this becomes a "standard feature" expected of their platform will they support it. As long as XBL Indies remains a novelty, they can and will ignore it.
Why when it comes to crap games it seems people focus on Wiiware but not iOS? Are people really saying wiiware has more crappy games than iOS because for some reason I just think they are wrong. How many games does iOS have? I remember seeing a chart saying iOS had more games then the last 5 gens combined. Why is it no one is talking about this?
Why when it comes to crap games it seems people focus on Wiiware but not iOS? Are people really saying wiiware has more crappy games then iOS because for some reason I just think they are wrong. How many games does iOS have? I remember seeing a chart saying iOS had more games then the last 5 gens combined. Why is it no one is talking about this?
On iOS I see various high quality titles, with my favourite being Broken Sword. On WiiWare I simply don't. Of course, it's got to do with the crappy promotion of the entire service as there are at least a few good titles such as Jett Rocket. But when I take a look around the Shopping Channel, I always see huge loads of crap at the front. And the demos aren't much better, don't know why so many bad games get one.
When they are good, I feel that they are vastly overpriced. Paying 10 Euros or even more for a 4 hour experience when I get much more for a similar price for a retail title, I think there's something wrong.
Why when it comes to crap games it seems people focus on Wiiware but not iOS? Are people really saying wiiware has more crappy games than iOS because for some reason I just think they are wrong. How many games does iOS have? I remember seeing a chart saying iOS had more games then the last 5 gens combined. Why is it no one is talking about this?
Because iOS something something destroying the current foundation of the marketplace of games something something.
Both have good and bad games, though it seems to be harder on WiiWare to find greats. I think Mega Man 9 and 10 are perhaps the two most popular, if only because they're games from a renowned franchise.
Nobody ever talks about Castlevania: The Adventure Rebirth ):
Can we get the OP edited to link the full transcript from Gamasutra or Eurogamer, and have some quotes that actually represent what Reggie is saying? Apparently people still use 'garage' and 'indie' interchangeably.
@GodDuckman - Nintendownload Express. Takes the piss out of all downloadable Nintendo titles every week. But it's cool because it's Giant Bomb. This industry still doesn't take Nintendo seriously, and it hasn't since the mid 90's.
Can we get the OP edited to link the full transcript from Gamasutra or Eurogamer, and have some quotes that actually represent what Reggie is saying? Apparently people still use 'garage' and 'indie' interchangeably.
@GodDuckman - Nintendownload Express. Takes the piss out of all downloadable Nintendo titles every week. But it's cool because it's Giant Bomb. This industry still doesn't take Nintendo seriously, and it hasn't since the mid 90's.
On iOS I see various high quality titles, with my favourite being Broken Sword. On WiiWare I simply don't. Of course, it's got to do with the crappy promotion of the entire service as there are at least a few good titles such as Jett Rocket. But when I take a look around the Shopping Channel, I always see huge loads of crap at the front. And the demos aren't much better, don't know why so many bad games get one.
I agree the UI on iOS is better than the one on Wiiware and it is alot easier to find a good title on iOS because of the UI but I just think saying stuff like wiiware doesn't have high quality games like iOS is a little wrong.
It's a lot harder to find good titles on wiiware because you can't see reviews of the game right there on the games menu in the shop channel, the little description on the channels most of the time sucks and if you want to see more info on the game you most likely have to go online and search for a review. Most people don't want to do that. They want all that info on that page.
Getting a little off topic I guess.
What I think Reggie meant was anyone can get on American Idol and Nintendo doesn't want just anyone to develop for their console. They want people with experience. I do think Nintendo should change their rules though.
Because iOS something something destroying the current foundation of the marketplace of games something something.
Both have good and bad games, though it seems to be harder on WiiWare to find greats. I think Mega Man 9 and 10 are perhaps the two most popular, if only because they're games from a renowned franchise.
Nobody ever talks about Castlevania: The Adventure Rebirth ):
There are many more, I only have some (that Punch-Out!! clone I forget its name, Mega Man 9, Castlevania Rebirth, My Life as a King, My Life as a Darklord, NyxQuest, Bubble Bobble Plus, Lost Winds 1 & 2, Cave Story, Star Soldier R, Onslaught, Pearl Harbor Trilogy, Cubello, Max & the Magic Marker, Alien Crush Returns, Bomber Man Blast, and maybe some more I forget) and only a couple were duds. I have World of Goo but on PC. I don't have more because I mostly spend money on PC games but if I found the spare cash I can think of several more I want like Dive the Medes Island Secret which uses the NyxQuest engine, the Bit.Trip games, more Art Style games, the other Rebirth game, etc. Although releases have slowed there are stiill some great upcoming stuff like MotoHeroz (from the Trials developers, screenshots sucked at first but the trailers look fantastic), Super Dodgeball someone made a thread for recently, and La-Mulana too. I also avoided some games because Square is ripping WiiWare off. I only have one level of Space Invaders Get Even and didn't want to buy FFIV: The After Years as separate chapters adding up to full price...
And yeah some people can say they played this or that and didn't like it. I can say that about Angry Birds, that doesn't invalidate it or put someone off the service...
And I think people underestimate the work Nintendo has put in promoting their online stuff. Wii is hardly known for its online games but there was that survey showing a percentage comparable or higher than PS360 owners have their systems online, and I think stuff like Netflix are (most?) popular on it too. Promotions like the ambasador programs seem to have really worked. I think I remember articles about Mega Man doing really good on it as well.
The 3DS eshop with built-in screenshots and trailers and things (rather than as a separate channel as on Wii) could turn out among the best stores, I don't think other console stores have that, I can just think of PC services like Steam incorporating this. Iwata's GDC speech emphasised that they want to give developers tools to promote their content (which is king) with it. I really liked that speech but it also got threads like this...
Because iOS something something destroying the current foundation of the marketplace of games something something.
Both have good and bad games, though it seems to be harder on WiiWare to find greats. I think Mega Man 9 and 10 are perhaps the two most popular, if only because they're games from a renowned franchise.
Nobody ever talks about Castlevania: The Adventure Rebirth ):
And most have forgotten about Lost Winds, NyxQuest and Final Fantasy. Really Nintendo does offer some quality software and are much better controlled than other places but they just need to advertise better. Such as presenting new releases, popularity, and quality into different sections as well as push some special games that Nintendo likes or something. Even mentioning specific games that they want to showcase at conferences like E3, GDC, etc. The reason why I games like Lost Winds and Final Fantasy sold well at the start was due to Nintendo talking about it and raising some awareness and excitement about it.
I'd argue that won't be the case anymore starting with their new launches, but you could still very much be right
I wonder how much they would succeed if they would restrict their future business to just Nintendo software and selected third party devs (Level5 etc.).
At the end of the day, it's not so much that Nintendo is looking for quality titles, but qualities with sound financial backing (so they can get paid!) As much as I'd like them to get an App Store going, it probably won't happen because Nintendo just isn't willing to take on any sort of project which requires increasing their headcount a lot. Like Sega1991 was saying - they want to stay lean, cost-wise, even if it means taking a different approach.
lunchwithyuzo said:
I wasn't talking XNA/Indies, but rather the full 360 SDK and license fees. I'm aware of the former, but it seems extremely walled off and has huge visibility issues.
I know, but the actual SDK prices are not public knowledge, and if you know the cost of the kits you're pretty much in a position already to be thinking about how many kits you want to buy, not whether you can afford one.
Based on some google hunting though...
PSP (2009): $1500 for a dev kit (not a test kit), ??? for licensing, ??? for carts
DS (2010): somewhere between $800-$2000 for license or kit
PS3 (2009): $2k each
360: no idea...
I agree the UI on iOS is better than the one on Wiiware and it is alot easier to find a good title on iOS because of the UI but I just think saying stuff like wiiware doesn't have high quality games like iOS is a little wrong.
It's a lot harder to find good titles on wiiware because you can't see reviews of the game right there on the games menu in the shop channel, the little description on the channels most of the time sucks and if you want to see more info on the game you most likely have to go online and search for a review. Most people don't want to do that. They want all that info on that page.
Getting a little off topic I guess.
What I think Reggie meant was anyone can get on American Idol and Nintendo doesn't want just anyone to develop for their console. They want people with experience. I do think Nintendo should change their rules though.
My problem just wasn't that it was too hard to find them (there's NintendoLife ), but that I did not find any of them worth my money. I bought Lost Winds, which was boring and short, I got Cubello, which had some broken gameplay mechanics, I bought Orbient, which was only a subpar remake of my favourite GBA game. Jett Rocket was fine, but had no mid-point saving.
Compared to retail titles (Another Code R, Wario Land Shake Dimension), which cost just little more, I had much more fun and they lasted much longer. Maybe I'm just really disappointed with WiiWare as it has not become something like ArmorGames or some other flash site, which do feature some pretty great titles which I found more fulfilling than titles from Nintendo's service. And then again, the iOS service has some titles which I would love to see on WiiWare, but it's just not possible due to Nintendo's stupid regulations.
