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[Kazekage1981]

All this talk of the super duper geometry engine.........that the Xbox series S/X also have lol. Incredible. The secret sauce of the PS5 that pushes it ahead is also in the Xbox lol.

The fanboy wars are getting ridiculous now. Just accept that the Xbox might be more powerful and move on. You’ll still get your precious Sony first party games and they’ll still look great.

i think sony's and japanese technology philosophy in general, is doing more with less, and all about efficiency. Geometry engine compared to mesh shaders *may* prove such a thing even with less TFLOPS for PS5. Just speculation at my end, with no real proof.

 

[MrFunSocks]

i think sony's and japanese technology philosophy in general, is doing more with less, and all about efficiency. Geometry engine compared to mesh shaders *may* prove such a thing even with less TFLOPS for PS5. Just speculation at my end, with no real proof.

What I’m saying is that the Xbox has the geometry engine too, so any “advantage” the ps5 gets from the geometry engine the Xbox has too, so it’s not an advantage and it’s not making up for anything.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

What I’m saying is that the Xbox has the geometry engine too, so any “advantage” the ps5 gets from the geometry engine the Xbox has too, so it’s not an advantage and it’s not making up for anything.

Xbox does not have the PS5 geometry engine (Sony has their own patents on it). Xbox is closer to desktop RDNA2 for two main reasons. First off, their GPU is probably the same you'll find in their XCloud servers. Secondly, they want to maintain as close to desktop GPU variant as possible for easy PC ports. Makes sense and there's nothing wrong with that approach. Sony's geometry engine is different for their own reasons. Sony literally has features stripped from the compute unit. Why? Perhaps it helps with those clock speeds a bit, but I believe it has more to do with a future PSVR2 headset. There's no doubt a future PSVR2 headset will support gaze tracking. Having an advanced geometry engine that specializes in foveated rendering is key to saving on performance. Not to mention traditional gaming as well. Then again, Cerny said it himself that developers can choose to let it do its own thing or program for it themselves. We'll see how third-party devs take to it. All-in-all, I bet the rumors are true and AMD will implement Sony's solution in RDNA3.

 

[SatansReverence]

The question is would you be more receptive if this was about Microsoft having worked on something, I think we know the answer...

I would be as receptive as I was in 2013 when it was Microsoft shills spinning their secret sauce bullshit.

Have you figured out how to work out a consoles volume yet? Remember, you cant calculate all shapes like they are a box Doh!

Funny how no one has an answer for what would be the smallest space that a PS5 could be physically placed in because answering as much would be admitting they made a console 50% larger than their competition.

 

[Dave_at_Home]

I would be as receptive as I was in 2013 when it was Microsoft shills spinning their secret sauce bullshit.



Funny how no one has an answer for what would be the smallest space that a PS5 could be physically placed in because answering as much would be admitting they made a console 50% larger than their competition.

The only secret sauce nonsense I remember were two things. The power of the cloud and a secret second GPU if I remember correctly.

 

[SatansReverence]

The only secret sauce nonsense I remember were two things. The power of the cloud and a secret second GPU if I remember correctly.

And ESram
And Higher clocks
And Direct X

etc etc

 

[Dave_at_Home]

And ESram
And Higher clocks
And Direct X

etc etc

The Direct X 12 Ultimate Series X edition will blow away PS5. I say that with a straight face but its something I've read here a while back. Some things never change.

 

[Elog]

What I’m saying is that the Xbox has the geometry engine too, so any “advantage” the ps5 gets from the geometry engine the Xbox has too, so it’s not an advantage and it’s not making up for anything.

All GPUs have a piece of hardware dealing with geometry. AMD are calling this piece the geometry engine. Sony has redesigned the entire rendering pipeline around a heavily customised GE in PS5. It is also rumoured to be part of the future RDNA roadmap. It is unclear to me why you write stuff per above unless your intention is to only troll.

 

[Elcid]

Don't trust that guy. They spreads rumors and facts and mix it up with some facts so his tweets seem legit.

If we can't trust a gay democrat, who can we trust?!

 

[MonarchJT]

i think sony's and japanese technology philosophy in general, is doing more with less, and all about efficiency. Geometry engine compared to mesh shaders *may* prove such a thing even with less TFLOPS for PS5. Just speculation at my end, with no real proof.

I don't think so....everything i mean.. everything we see on the ps5 screams that it is reactionary to a performance deficit that sony had compared to the competition, the absurd size of the console .. that monster heatsink, the very high frequency linked to a variability of which we still have to verify the goodness, the use of liquid metal, the code wrote on the soc that brings us back to oberon and the github leak..the incredibly lower number of cu's than the competition ..the announcement of ms about being the only next gen console to have full rdna 2 specifications. I am increasingly convinced that the rumors regarding Sony was willing to release the ps5 last year are very realistic given the console presented. And to be clear if the ps5 with these features had been released between 2019 and 2020 it would have been monstrous.But now? ..well if we have to be honest (at least on paper) compared to the competition absolutely not .... indeed it seem quite the opposite

 

[Md Ray]

What I’m saying is that the Xbox has the geometry engine too, so any “advantage” the ps5 gets from the geometry engine the Xbox has too, so it’s not an advantage and it’s not making up for anything.

PS5's geometry handling is better than XSX. Paul personally DM'd that to me. And he has been bang on about RDNA 2 leaks so far.

 

[longdi]

PS5's geometry handling is better than XSX. Paul personally DM'd that to me. And he has been bang on about RDNA 2 leaks so far.

Firstly, show the dm

Secondly, define 'better' here. Is it sum of all parts?

 

[longdi]

All GPUs have a piece of hardware dealing with geometry. AMD are calling this piece the geometry engine. Sony has redesigned the entire rendering pipeline around a heavily customised GE in PS5. It is also rumoured to be part of the future RDNA roadmap. It is unclear to me why you write stuff per above unless your intention is to only troll.

Wow did mark cerny told you all that?

Why not ask your friend mark to give a full Q&A with DF, so he can show off all his next gen secret sauces? I figure would make good official PR. Why has he been hesitating so long?

 

[Brofist]

Another sauce topic? Neogaf is going to be a cooking forum at this rate.

 

[longdi]

I like to see Sony attempt this marketing speak once more.

Why are they letting Series X running with the claim now?
When is Marky mark next tech talk?
Why is Sony 'relying' on their usual same rabid fans FUD'ing non-stop with hot sauce topics?
I guess random tweets and comments are the next level of PR?

 

[Md Ray]

Firstly, show the dm

Secondly, define 'better' here. Is it sum of all parts?

He told that to me while we were discussing about primitive units and pixel fillrate, etc.

 

[MrFunSocks]

All GPUs have a piece of hardware dealing with geometry. AMD are calling this piece the geometry engine. Sony has redesigned the entire rendering pipeline around a heavily customised GE in PS5. It is also rumoured to be part of the future RDNA roadmap. It is unclear to me why you write stuff per above unless your intention is to only troll.

Ok so what makes Sony’s geometry engine better than Microsoft’s? What customisations did they make and what improvements to do they give? What customisations have Microsoft made, if any? What benefits do they bring?

customised doesn’t mean better (or worse), it just means different. This whole “AMD will use Sony tech in RDNA3” is all just fanboy garbage at this point.

PS5's geometry handling is better than XSX. Paul personally DM'd that to me. And he has been bang on about RDNA 2 leaks so far.

lol who is Paul and why should I care? What evidence does this Paul have? How is it better? What is it doing differently?

 

[Md Ray]

Ok so what makes Sony’s geometry engine better than Microsoft’s? What customisations did they make and what improvements to do they give? What customisations have Microsoft made, if any? What benefits do they bring?

customised doesn’t mean better (or worse), it just means different. This whole “AMD will use Sony tech in RDNA3” is all just fanboy garbage at this point.


lol who is Paul and why should I care? What evidence does this Paul have? How is it better? What is it doing differently?

Paul from Red Gaming Tech

 

[93xfan]

It’d be weird for Sony to silent on some major tech like this.

Could be true. We will have to see

 

[MrFunSocks]

Paul from Red Gaming Tech

So why should I care who he is? What are the answers to the rest of my questions?

 

[Md Ray]

So why should I care who he is? What are the answers to the rest of my questions?

You can ask those questions to him.

 

[longdi]

It’d be weird for Sony to silent on some major tech like this.

Could be true. We will have to see

I dont think this is 'major'.
Just a part and parcel design choice needing to meet the tech of the day.

The most hyped PS4 that has 8 ACE units, at the time when most radeon gpu have 2.

Well, does the PS4 performed better than 7870/7950/7970/280X/270X? All these amd gpu with 2 ACE.
Answer is nope.

Dont fall for fanboy egging we see here.

 

[El Pistolero]

I don't think so....everything i mean.. everything we see on the ps5 screams that it is reactionary to a performance deficit that sony had compared to the competition, the absurd size of the console .. that monster heatsink, the very high frequency linked to a variability of which we still have to verify the goodness, the use of liquid metal, the code wrote on the soc that brings us back to oberon and the github leak..the incredibly lower number of cu's than the competition ..the announcement of ms about being the only next gen console to have full rdna 2 specifications. I am increasingly convinced that the rumors regarding Sony was willing to release the ps5 last year are very realistic given the console presented. And to be clear if the ps5 with these features had been released between 2019 and 2020 it would have been monstrous.But now? ..well if we have to be honest (at least on paper) compared to the competition absolutely not .... indeed it seem quite the opposite

So Sony did all of that (the high clocks, the heatsink, the liquid metal...) once it got wind of the mighty Xbox? You really typed all the lines above a straight face?

 

[duhmetree]

It’d be weird for Sony to silent on some major tech like this.

Could be true. We will have to see

technically Cerny talked about it at Road to PS5.

timestamped; same video as always. RGT briefly talks about GE and then Cerny describes it from 36:29-37:57

 

[Silver Wattle]

The original "ps5 has features beyond rDNA 2" tweet, was the AMD guy calling ps5 GPU rDNA 1.5, this guy just grabs the credible info(mostly from Twitter) and claims it's from his inside source.

 

[Md Ray]

What I’m saying is that the Xbox has the geometry engine too, so any “advantage” the ps5 gets from the geometry engine the Xbox has too, so it’s not an advantage and it’s not making up for anything.

Wow did mark cerny told you all that?

Why not ask your friend mark to give a full Q&A with DF, so he can show off all his next gen secret sauces? I figure would make good official PR. Why has he been hesitating so long?

I don't have much details about geometry engine and its capabilities. Paul might know as he's the one to reveal it's better on PS5.

While SX has higher computational power, the PS5's GPU does in fact, has advantages in other parts of the GPU pipeline like the pixel fillrate and rasterization rate.

I'm just gonna leave this here:

Series X and PS5 - both have 64 render output units.

It's 64 ROPs * 1825 = 116.8

"116 Gpix/sec" as confirmed by MS themselves

Do the same calc for PS5 - you get 142.7 Gpix/sec - 22% uplift in pixel fillrate over XSX due to faster ROPs!

Bonus:
The one next to pixel fillrate is the rasterization rate (7.3 Gtri/sec). There are 4 primitive units on the SX. So, 4 * 1825 = 7.3

AFAIK, AMD seems to be using 4 primitive units from GCN 2 (290/290X) to GCN 4 (Polaris) up until RDNA 2. So PS5 must also be using the same amount of primitive units. On PS5, this would be 8.92 Gtri/sec - again, a 22% uplift. Apart from this, the caches in PS5's GPU should be 20%+ faster too.

TL;DR:
XBOX Series X: 12 TFLOPS, 560 GB/sec, 7.3 Gtri/sec, 116 Gpix/sec
PlayStation 5: 10.3 TFLOPS, 448 GB/sec, 8.92 Gtri/sec, 142.7 Gpix/sec

TL;DR:
XBOX Series X: 12 TFLOPS, 560 GB/sec, 7.3 Gtri/sec, 116 Gpix/sec
PlayStation 5: 10.3 TFLOPS, 448 GB/sec, 8.92 Gtri/sec, 142.7 Gpix/sec

 

[longdi]

So Sony did all of that (the high clocks, the heatsink, the liquid metal...) once it got wind of the mighty Xbox? You really typed all the lines above a straight face?

Tbf, we've seen amd latest rdna2, and the highest game clocks is only 2015mhz on their best parts, which need 300w to it alone.
So your 'high clocks' is open to interpretation.

ps4 gpu clock was only 800mhz
ps4 pro was only 911mhz
anything doubling those, can be considered as high, or very high even. gen to gen.

 

[duhmetree]

First, we have a custom AMD GPU based on their RDNA2 technology.

What does that mean? AMD is continuously improving and revising their tech; for RDNA 2 their goals were, roughly speaking
- Reduce Power Consumption by re-architecting the GPU to put data close to where it's needed
- To optimize the GPU for performance
- and to add a new, more advanced feature set

BUT THAT FEATURE SET IS MALEABLE; Which is to say that we have our own needs for PlayStation and that can factor into what the AMD roadmap becomes

Playstation5 has a NEW UNIT called The Geometry Engine. Which brings.....
Handling of triangles and primitives under FULL PROGRAMMATIC CONTROL
............

Simple usage can be performance optimization such as
-Removing back-face or off-screen vertices and triangles

More complex usage involves something called primitive shaders; which allow the game to synthesize geometry on the fly, as its being rendered. It's a BRAND NEW capability.

Using primitve shaders on PS5 will allow for a broad variety of techniques, including
-smoothly VARYING LEVEL OF DETAIL
-addition of procedural detail to close-up objects
-and improvement to particle effects and other visual special effects use,

does any of this sound familiar?

 

[longdi]

I don't have much details about geometry engine and its capabilities. Paul might know as he's the one to reveal it's better on PS5.

While SX has higher computational power, the PS5's GPU does in fact, has advantages in other parts of the GPU pipeline like the pixel fillrate and rasterization rate.

I'm just gonna leave this here:


TL;DR:
XBOX Series X: 12 TFLOPS, 560 GB/sec, 7.3 Gtri/sec, 116 Gpix/sec
PlayStation 5: 10.3 TFLOPS, 448 GB/sec, 8.92 Gtri/sec, 142.7 Gpix/sec

You derived using theoretical guesswork and tweet feeds. Thats all there is to it.
Sony havent even disclosed ps5 rop units.

Seems we still need to wait for official info trickle..
Seeing that even the latest rnda2 7nm tech related: 6800 to 6900xt, runs at only 1.8-2ghz in games, needing 250-300w itself already!

 

[Md Ray]

Tbf, we've seen amd latest rdna2, and the highest game clocks is only 2015mhz on their best parts, which need 300w to it alone.
So your 'high clocks' is open to interpretation.

ps4 gpu clock was only 800mhz
ps4 pro was only 911mhz
anything doubling those, can be considered as high, or very high even. gen to gen.

You're forgetting that CUs inside PS5 are half of that of their best parts. So 2230 MHz shouldn't be much of a problem with liquid metal and that massive heatsink which looks like the size of a dGPU's heatsink.
And power requirements should also be half of that.

 

[longdi]

You're forgetting that CUs inside PS5 are half of that of their best parts. So 2230 MHz shouldn't be much of a problem with liquid metal and that massive heatsink which looks like the size of a dGPU's heatsink.
And power requirements should also be half of that.

Lets continue waiting for 6700xt reveal then.
And also wait for cerny to invite DF for another q&a with him. Could that be Richard hinted surprise?

 

[Md Ray]

You derived using theoretical guesswork and tweet feeds. Thats all there is to it.
Sony havent even disclosed ps5 rop units.

Seems we still need to wait for official info trickle..
Seeing that even the latest rnda2 7nm tech related: 6800 to 6900xt, runs at only 1.8-2ghz in games, needing 250-300w itself already!

72 CU part has 128 ROPs. Confirmed. What do you think the ROP count will be on a 36 CU part?

142.7 Gpix/s and 8.92 Gtri/s are real. Why are you in denial?

 

[longdi]

72 CU part has 128 ROPs. Confirmed. What do you think the ROP count will be on a 36 CU part?

142.7 Gpix/s and 8.92 Gti/s are real. Why are you in denial?

Im not in denial. I waiting for official sources and non-official test results.
Dont you think thats more constructive?

 

[MrFunSocks]

First, we have a custom AMD GPU based on their RDNA2 technology.

What does that mean? AMD is continuously improving and revising their tech; for RDNA 2 their goals were, roughly speaking
- Reduce Power Consumption by re-architecting the GPU to put data close to where it's needed
- To optimize the GPU for performance
- and to add a new, more advanced feature set

BUT THAT FEATURE SET IS MALEABLE; Which is to say that we have our own needs for PlayStation and that can factor into what the AMD roadmap becomes

Playstation5 has a NEW UNIT called The Geometry Engine. Which brings.....
Handling of triangles and primitives under FULL PROGRAMMATIC CONTROL
............

Simple usage can be performance optimization such as
-Removing back-face or off-screen vertices and triangles

More complex usage involves something called primitive shaders; which allow the game to synthesize geometry on the fly, as its being rendered. It's a BRAND NEW capability.

Using primitve shaders on PS5 will allow for a broad variety of techniques, including
-smoothly VARYING LEVEL OF DETAIL
-addition of procedural detail to close-up objects
-and improvement to particle effects and other visual special effects use,

does any of this sound familiar?

You don’t seem to realise that the Xbox also has the AMD geometry engine though.

You can ask those questions to him.

I’m not the one making the claims, I don’t need to ask him. The person that’s quoting him as saying it’s better should have asked these questions.

 

[TearInto5th]

If this is a technology that's only in the PS5, it points to Sony creating it themselves, and then giving it to AMD in their next batch of cards. Cerny said this happens during the initial PS5 presentation.

Sony has put a shit tonne of effort into the PS5 and its architecture, and it doesn't surprise me that they created their own technologies to help push their vision. This may also show that if AMD wants it, it must be impressive.

 

[Sleepwalker]

If we can't trust a gay democrat, who can we trust?!

Very unbiased gay democrat





Also, holy crap guys you care way too much about bullshit that means jackshit to the end user.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

Nope but good luck with that.

 

[duhmetree]

You don’t seem to realise that the Xbox also has the AMD geometry engine though.



I’m not the one making the claims, I don’t need to ask him. The person that’s quoting him as saying it’s better should have asked these questions.

Sony's feature set is different than AMD's offerings. This is why Xbox PR went with 'Only next-gen with FULL RDNA2' and the warriors ate it up.

Both consoles will have comparable feature sets but take different routes to the objective.

IN ADDITION, Sony's GE is allegedly 'more advanced' than the RDNA 2 offering. It will not make the PS5 some 15TF juggernaut. If it is true, ( and I do believe RGT ) it means Sony's 1st party games ( or any dev working closely with Sony ) will be that much better. By how much? TBD. Either way, its an exciting prospect considering Horizon and GoW can be made better. BUT you can neglect this paragraph if you do not believe RGT.

 

[MonarchJT]

So Sony did all of that (the high clocks, the heatsink, the liquid metal...) once it got wind of the mighty Xbox? You really typed all the lines above a straight face?

to clock THAT high and squeeze what they could from the soc. absolutely yes. is my opinion and the weird size is the most glaring of evidence. Honestly I don't find any other answer they could use more cu's spend less and have the same perf.
Do you think that all the evidence I posted to you is purely coincidental? including the code and above the soc?
I would believe otherwise only in one circumstance ... if the ps5 cost 399 (with the disc).

 

[MonarchJT]

Sony's feature set is different than AMD's offerings. This is why Xbox PR went with 'Only next-gen with FULL RDNA2' and the warriors ate it up.

Both consoles will have comparable feature sets but take different routes to the objective.

IN ADDITION, Sony's GE is allegedly 'more advanced' than the RDNA 2 offering. It will not make the PS5 some 15TF juggernaut. If it is true, ( and I do believe RGT ) it means Sony's 1st party games ( or any dev working closely with Sony ) will be that much better. By how much? TBD. Either way, its an exciting prospect considering Horizon and GoW can be made better. BUT you can neglect this paragraph if you do not believe RGT.

ehm no not at all. we have digital foundry already saying the opposite

 

[El Pistolero]

to clock THAT high and squeeze what they could from the soc. absolutely yes. is my opinion and the weird size is the most glaring of evidence. Honestly I don't find any other answer they could use more cu's spend less and have the same perf.
Do you think that all the evidence I posted to you is purely coincidental? including the code and above the soc?

Yes, yes it is. Your take is absolutely nonsensical. Everything in the console was built around it having very high frequencies from the get go: The liquid metal addition, the giant heatsink, the tweaks at the architectural level to process data at top speed...You do not do that overnight, buddy. This has taken them years and years of prototyping and testing.

 

[Md Ray]

It's not hard very to understand.

What RGT is saying is that PS5 has custom RDNA 2 with feature(s) that will get implemented into RDNA 3 in the future.

And this isn't something new.

PS4 Pro's GPU - which was based on Polaris had future AMD roadmap features like Rapid Packed Math: FP16, which then got incorporated into Vega architecture on PC, a year or so later, IIRC.

For the record, Polaris on PC (RX 480/580, 470/570) and Xbox One X didn't have RPM. It was unique to PS4 Pro.

EDIT:




EDIT 2:
PS4 GPU was based on GCN 1 but it was custom, i.e. it had 8 ACEs while the Xbox One and PC variant of GCN 1 GPUs had just 2 ACEs.

This 8 ACEs later got incorporated into GCN 2 GPUs on PC with R9 290/290X.

 

[El Pistolero]

ehm no not at all. we have digital foundry already saying the opposite

What are you talking about? DF is not made of hardware specialists or engineers; Those are guys with a strong enough foundation to comment on graphical techniques. They can -for the most part-dissect an already existing game and analyze the technology behind it, but they do not have the necessary background to do the same with a console architecture.

 

[amstradcpc]

Firstly, show the dm

Secondly, define 'better' here. Is it sum of all parts?

It culls triangles in a much earlier stage, saving a lot of process of the culled ones.

 

[tusharngf]

Don't trust that guy. They spreads rumors and facts and mix it up with some facts so his tweets seem legit.

i think he got almost 2-3 leaks right in past 3months. His track record is pretty solid.

 

[KRYPT83]

Just to add that VRS and Mesh Shading were confirmed by a dev with Dev Kit access

Wrong answer try again we've known the PS5 specs for 6 months now and what it's capable of. RGT hasn't been right about anything

 

[Redlight]

Here:

He told that to me while we were discussing about primitive units and pixel fillrate, etc.

Well he'll know better than to DM anything to you in future.

 

[Redlight]

Just to add that VRS and Mesh Shading were confirmed by a dev with Dev Kit access

Dodrake's claim is simply not true. For those of you who don't know, 'Mr. Deezy Deezy' is merely an aspiring developer. He certainly is no kind of 'industry insider'.

"My goal is join the industry in a fun creative environment and further hone my skills as a junior game designer and propel myself to the forefront of new industry practices to create compelling, innovative new experiences for medium.

I'm looking to join a studio willing to give a chance to a new graduate to learn and rapidly grow, to make his mark on our industry."

 

[Md Ray]

Well he'll know better than to DM anything to you in future.

Why?

 

[Redlight]

Why?

It's a private conversation. He's got a reasonable expectation that it will remain that way.