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Sackboy: A Big Adventure reportedly found on SteamDB

Guilty_AI

Member
Well that's packaged - I was running without the editor, but not packaged - and that is running at 50% scale (that he needed a console command to achieve) so its 50% of 1920x1080p resolution according to the comment the author made.
Resolution scale is not an issue considering how nanite works. Besides, running the game packaged is how end costumers will be playing the game anyway, so thats the accurate performance evaluation.

If running with reduce lumen lighting and at 960x540(?) is acceptable now on PC to run PS5 first party REYES game ports - while still needing an RTX IO and Samsung 980 Pro nvme, which a 1060 doesn't support, and a lot of compute from the GPU too to provide ~5GB/s decompression for PS5 designed REYES games- then I take your point about not needing to cater for lowest common denominator, it will all just scale down.
Dude, this last gen PC has none of what you said and still ran this "next-gen" demo by downgrading visual quality, thats the point.

A PC that does have those things will run the game completely fine at intended or better quality. Also, for a while now, you've been completely mixing up UE5 features with PS5 ones, i don't think you fully understand what REYES means either, even if you know the words the acronym stands for.
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
Resolution scale is not an issue considering how nanite works. Besides, running the game packaged is how end costumers will be playing the game anyway, so thats the accurate performance evaluation.
But it is completely misleading compared to the "custom designed PS5 games" - that my original question asked about - that will not be 540p and will have lumen-esq SW RT/GI + hw RT lighting and will be streaming Rendering Everything Your Eyes See - and no more - courtesy of the IO complex and 5.5GB/s raw read speed of a nvme delivering fresh data with low latency.

That 1060 PC (based on the author's comment) can't even match the PS5 settings or frame-rate at less than 1/4 of the pixels rendered, even though that demo is way below what a custom PS5 designed first party port workload would do.

Dude, this last gen PC has none of what you said and still ran this "next-gen" demo by downgrading visual quality, thats the point.

A PC that does have those things will run the game completely fine at intended or better quality. Also, for a while now, you've been completely mixing up UE5 features with PS5 ones, i don't think you fully understand what REYES means either, even if you know the words the acronym stands for.
See previous paragraph above. Nanite/lumen/UE5 are just a decent point of reference for my RTX 3060 leaning towards upping coming PS5 first party visuals - assuming they don't go lowest common denominator for PC ports - and Epic describe UE5 as a REYES system IIRC from the developer docs.
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
That 1060 PC (based on the author's comment) can't even match the PS5 settings or frame-rate at less than 1/4 of the pixels rendered, even though that demo is way below what a custom PS5 designed first party port workload would do.
Of course it can't match it, its a 2016 card with older architecture and lower specs on about everything. It can match a ps4 pro at best.
See previous paragraph above. Nanite/lumen/UE5 are just a decent point of reference for my RTX 3060 leaning towards upping coming PS5 first party visuals - assuming they don't go lowest common denominator for PC ports - and Epic describe UE5 as a REYES system IIRC from the developer docs.
But it isn't. It can create somewhat the illusion of REYES but its still limited by a number of factors like how much assets can be loaded into memory. For starters, nanite only works on static objects which already messes up the prospect of, for example, creating a bustling metropolis.

But it is completely misleading compared to the "custom designed PS5 games" - that my original question asked about - that will not be 540p and will have lumen-esq SW RT/GI + hw RT lighting and will be streaming Rendering Everything Your Eyes See - and no more - curtesy of the IO complex and 5.5GB/s raw read speed of a nvme delivering fresh data with low latency.
Dude, you really need to get off the kool aid.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Of course it can't match it, its a 2016 card with older architecture and lower specs on about everything. It can match a ps4 pro at best.
So returning to the original point some comments back, you think PlayStation should target 540p and lesser visuals (and loading screens) with their £70 first party PC ports then? And what percentage of those existing 1060 PC customers that have bought either death stranding, HZD, GoW do think will be interested in ports under those circumstances?
But it isn't. It can create somewhat the illusion of REYES but its still limited by a number of factors like how much assets can be loaded into memory. For starters, nanite only works on static objects which already messes up the prospect of, for example, creating a bustling metropolis.
I've tried my best to ignore your childish suggestions that I 'm not fully versed on graphics programming/tech, but if that's really your take on nanite geometry, and don't think Epic's stats, of it'll be usable for roughly 90% of all geometry in an average scene - with traditional HW vertex/geo/frag pipeline rendered assets used for all the rest - for UE5 nanite/lumen games - and don't believe what Cerny described in the Road to PS5 GDC talk about REYES, then I suggest you go watch and read a bit more.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
So returning to the original point some comments back, you think PlayStation should target 540p and lesser visuals (and loading screens) with their £70 first party PC ports then? And what percentage of those existing 1060 PC customers that have bought either death stranding, HZD, GoW do think will be interested in ports under those circumstances?
Why should them target that considering it can be scaled back perfectly well even when it doesn't, as shown in the demo? The ancient valley demo recommends a gtx 1080ti minimum, and it still ran on a gtx 1060.

I've tried my best to ignore your childish suggestions that I 'm not fully versed on graphics programming/tech,
You definitely don't look the part, considering you've been spouting REYES this and REYES that for a while, and all you ever do is parrot talking points from a single presentation by a guy trying to sell his product, as if his words are holy scriptures.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
stealing this from "the other place":

- Sony will never port games to PC.
- Sony is porting the Quantic Dream games because it is an investor in Epic and the exclusivity money paid for development. Don't expect more ports.
- Sony is porting Horizon Zero Dawn because most of the work has been done on account of Death Stranding using the same engine and it wants to drum up interest in the sequel. Don't expect ports of anything released relatively recently.
- Sony is porting Days Gone because it underperformed. Don't expect ports of titles in a successful franchise, like Uncharted.
- Sony is porting Uncharted because it's dormant franchise. Don't expect ports of titles in a successful and active franchise, like God of War.
- Sony is porting God of War (2018) because it's not a cross-gen game. Don't expect ports of games that are also available on PS5.
- Sony is porting Sackboy because it is a cross-gen game. Don't expect ports of PS5 exclusives. <--- We are here.
- Sony is porting [PS5 exclusive] because [reason]. Don't expect day-one releases.
- I can't believe Sony is doing day-one releases! I'm cancelling my pre-orders! / I always suspected Sony's PC port initiative would culminate in day-and-date releases! I never said otherwise, no sir!
Somewhere in the middle of that bullet point list should be a halfers point "Well, ok Sony is porting and there's nothing I can do about it, so I now change my mind and think PC ports are a great idea"

After the rest of the points are crossed off, you can change the above to 100% of ecosystem supporters.
 

Dream-Knife

Banned
So returning to the original point some comments back, you think PlayStation should target 540p and lesser visuals (and loading screens) with their £70 first party PC ports then? And what percentage of those existing 1060 PC customers that have bought either death stranding, HZD, GoW do think will be interested in ports under those circumstances?
PC games won't be more than $60.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
PC games won't be more than $60.
So are you saying that potentially future £70 PS5 designed first party games ported to PC will be cheaper - because of a 2 year delay? Or are you saying they will sell PS5 games on PC cheaper than PS5 - despite losing a cut to PC platform they sell on?
 

reksveks

Member
So are you saying that potentially future £70 PS5 designed first party games ported to PC will be cheaper - because of a 2 year delay? Or are you saying they will sell PS5 games on PC cheaper than PS5 - despite losing a cut to PC platform they sell on?
I am with Dream-Knife

Personally I think it will be the combo of
- 2 years delay affecting user perception of value
- the pc store marketplace and user behaviour doesn't generally lead to many successful games at 70GBP for the standard edition
 
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Dream-Knife

Banned
So are you saying that potentially future £70 PS5 designed first party games ported to PC will be cheaper - because of a 2 year delay? Or are you saying they will sell PS5 games on PC cheaper than PS5 - despite losing a cut to PC platform they sell on?
They won't sell PS5 games for $70 on PC. $60 is the standard price.
 
So are you saying that potentially future £70 PS5 designed first party games ported to PC will be cheaper - because of a 2 year delay? Or are you saying they will sell PS5 games on PC cheaper than PS5 - despite losing a cut to PC platform they sell on?
It would still be a deal for Sony. Often Sony games are being sold after a week or so, because there is mostly no replay value and no multiplayer. Imagine a disc that has like 10 owners on PS5 vs. 10 Pc users paying 30-40 bucks.
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
Why should them target that considering it can be scaled back perfectly well even when it doesn't, as shown in the demo? The ancient valley demo recommends a gtx 1080ti minimum, and it still ran on a gtx 1060.
The scaling back looks closer to UE4 lighting - and anyone that's ran the UE5 editor will have noticed there is a threshold where fidelity wouldn't be worth it, and so with such little headroom on the 1060 for nanite/lumen, using UE4 lighting paths instead - like they will on Series S - would be the preferred solution. Ie not a custom PS5 designed solution.
You definitely don't look the part, considering you've been spouting REYES this and REYES that for a while, and all you ever do is parrot talking points from a single presentation by a guy trying to sell his product, as if his words are holy scriptures.
How else do you discuss a paradigm shift with a hand waver like yourself - who seemingly hasn't bothered to research the specifics of the solutions - if you aren't repeatedly using the term to draw attention to the flaw of the other person's argument - because they are not taking account of the specifics of the paradigm shift?

The point above about dropping nanite/lumen is that it changes how the data is batched to GPU, and thereby UE4 paths involves the same rendering redundancy we've always had on traditional T&L (ie not REYES and at 1/3 of the nanite throughput, and not in a single shader call).
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
It would still be a deal for Sony. Often Sony games are being sold after a week or so, because there is mostly no replay value and no multiplayer. Imagine a disc that has like 10 owners on PS5 vs. 10 Pc users paying 30-40 bucks.
It would, but the vast number of games sold now on consoles are digital, and they aren't re-sold either, so optics of selling cheaper on PC would still be a problem - unless sold 2years late - IMO.
 
It would, but the vast number of games sold now on consoles are digital, and they aren't re-sold either, so optics of selling cheaper on PC would still be a problem - unless sold 2years late - IMO.
We are still at 40-50% discs in most countries and Ebay, Craigs list and so on are flooded with used Sony games shortly after the release. Every used disc game is a big fat 0 for Sony.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
We are still at 40-50% discs in most countries and Ebay, Craigs list and so on are flooded with used Sony games shortly after the release. Every used disc game is a big fat 0 for Sony.
For the game, yes, but not when they are selling the hardware/accessories at a good profit if it brings in more console sales. And in today's market we sadly have paid DLC, season passes, PS+ online subs and mtx.

In poorer countries piracy was rife in previous generations, but they still did business there because of the other means of profiting, so it is more complicated IMO
 

Guilty_AI

Member
The scaling back looks closer to UE4 lighting - and anyone that's ran the UE5 editor will have noticed there is a threshold where fidelity wouldn't be worth it, and so with such little headroom on the 1060 for nanite/lumen, using UE4 lighting paths instead - like they will on Series S - would be the preferred solution. Ie not a custom PS5 designed solution.
Wouldn't be worth in what sense? Its not like they have to worry specifically if the guy with the low-end pc is having the best experience possible, only that the game is playable enough in his hardware. They only went through this trouble with series S because there are actual market expectations imposed on the console that won't exist on 5 yo gpus.
Not to mention that if they do have this worry, they can just implement both solutions and allow players to swicth between then for whatever fits their interest and hardware best, though i highly doubt thats worth the trouble or even necessary at all.
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
Wouldn't be worth in what sense? Its not like they have to worry specifically if the guy with the low-end pc is having the best experience possible, only that the game is playable enough in his hardware. They only went through this trouble with series S because there are actual market expectations imposed on the console that won't exist on 5 yo gpus.
Not to mention that if they do have this worry, they can just implement both solutions and allow players to swicth between then for whatever fits their interest and hardware best, though i highly doubt thats worth the trouble or even necessary at all.
So from my original question: "Do you think they will (1)just develop for the lowest PC common denominator - ignoring PS5 specs at the design stage - to maximise PC sales ? Or do you think they will (2) custom design for PS5 - limiting PC market to PCs with RTX IO, RTX 3060TI and 8 core CPUs and better - encouraging more PS5 sales? Or do you think they will (3) custom design for PS5, then degrade the PS5 version for porting to lower end PCs to maximise the market size?"

From what you have written it reads like you are now saying PlayStation will go option (3) to be able to sell PS5 first party designed games to the largest PC market, which wouldn't be so bad - other than wasted dev resources that should have been used for PS5 software development...but it could also read like you are saying you think they will take option (1), which is the worst of all options, and the one in which I would ditch my PlayStation hardware.

I hope, and believe they will go option (2), for the free publicity PC gamers bring to those games, and by setting the bar so high really asks the question of the wider PC gamer: What is the cheapest way to play these games? In this environment of constant chip shortages - for devices not made in the 10-20m/year on an older node at modest price - the answer for many more people from the PC audience might be to play on PS5 this gen where getting the device will be easier and probably 3x cheaper - if they had to specifically upgrade their PC to meet the games minimum requirements.
 
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martino

Member
So from my original question: "Do you think they will (1)just develop for the lowest PC common denominator - ignoring PS5 specs at the design stage - to maximise PC sales ? Or do you think they will (2) custom design for PS5 - limiting PC market to PCs with RTX IO, RTX 3060TI and 8 core CPUs and better - encouraging more PS5 sales? Or do you think they will (3) custom design for PS5, then degrade the PS5 version for porting to lower end PCs to maximise the market size?"

From what you have written it reads like you are now saying PlayStation will go option (3) to be able to sell PS5 first party designed games to the largest PC market, which wouldn't be so bad - other than wasted dev resources that should have been used for PS5 software development...but it could also read like you are saying you think they will take option (1), which is the worst of all options, and the one in which I would ditch my PlayStation hardware.

I hope, and believe they will go option (2), for the free publicity PC gamers bring to those games, and by setting the bar so high really asks the question of the wider PC gamer: What is the cheapest way to play these games? In this environment of constant chip shortages - for devices not made in the 10-20m/year on an older node at modest price - the answer for many more people from the PC audience might be to play on PS5 this gen where getting the device will be easier and probably 3x cheaper - if they had to specifically upgrade their PC to meet the games minimum requirements.
It would be funny they attempt two....
But they probably have studied the community and do marketing research , they are not wishful thinking warrior full of hope and belief targetted at making one platform shine at the expanse of the whole brand image, so it won't happen.
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
So from my original question: "Do you think they will (1)just develop for the lowest PC common denominator - ignoring PS5 specs at the design stage - to maximise PC sales ? Or do you think they will (2) custom design for PS5 - limiting PC market to PCs with RTX IO, RTX 3060TI and 8 core CPUs and better - encouraging more PS5 sales? Or do you think they will (3) custom design for PS5, then degrade the PS5 version for porting to lower end PCs to maximise the market size?"

From what you have written it reads like you are now saying PlayStation will go option (3) to be able to sell PS5 first party designed games to the largest PC market, which wouldn't be so bad - other than wasted dev resources that should have been used for PS5 software development...but it could also read like you are saying you think they will take option (1), which is the worst of all options, and the one in which I would ditch my PlayStation hardware.
What i said makes is perfectly aligned with what i said originally: 2 and 3 at once, considering you'll have a game developed normally for ps5 then ported to pc running exactly as it should be in new hardware AND the game can have its visual quality dowgraded to run on low-end PCs, regardless if this downgrade involves running it through a different .exe tha uses last gen tech, or is just dropping down some sliders in the new version.

Unless at the third option you're already implying the PC would get both the 'next-gen' version and the downgraded version and allow players to switch between them, though i still wouldn't fully agree as in its not worth the trouble. Especially considering you could still run the game on last gen pcs by dropping down visual quality as i've already shown.
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
Is this a good fun platformer? I loved astro playroom.
Does it use dualsense too ?
It is an excellent game with some outstanding original platforming gamer music in some levels, and fantastic blending/mixing of chart hits in others to match a level's gameplay tempo. It is probably most closely aligned to Super Mario 3D world(WiiU) because of the pre-set camera positions at each point in a level, the (four player) co-op being similar in how it works and the various per level modifiers you might be forced to use to adapt a level's gameplay style, like say the tanooki or cat mario suits do.

But it isn't a clone IMO, and is excellent in its own right, with its own vibe and unique game identity - as you'd expect of a Sackboy staring game. - the rolling move looks like it was borrowed from the vita's Little Deviants game and it provides lots of comedy and frustration in co-op mode. The dualsense support is very good and adds a dimension to the platforming too, with the feedback.

The knitted knighted time trial challenges are very addictive long after completing the story, and the game once fully exposed has some first class 3D platforming challenges.
I loved astro's Playroom, too but that's more a parallel gameplay style of Mario sunshine.
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
What i said makes is perfectly aligned with what i said originally: 2 and 3 at once, considering you'll have a game developed normally for ps5 then ported to pc running exactly as it should be in new hardware AND the game can have its visual quality dowgraded to run on low-end PCs, regardless if this downgrade involves running it through a different .exe tha uses last gen tech, or is just dropping down some sliders in the new version.

Unless at the third option you're already implying the PC would get both the 'next-gen' version and the downgraded version and allow players to switch between them, though i still wouldn't fully agree as in its not worth the trouble. Especially considering you could still run the game on last gen pcs by dropping down visual quality as i've already shown.
It doesn't make sense, because they are mutually exclusive, because the UE4 lighting paths are lots and lots of recursive work because it takes - IIRC 10 - hours to typically bake a level change for previous gen designed games - from what Daniel said in the UE5 lumen video. Light mass gives them real-time previewing, but is only indicative, and won't catch all situations, like small lighting bleeding that can destroy the look of a scene, and then needs fixed and re-baked.

Designing with UE5 real-time SW GI/RT with hw RT for close up stuff provides developers with feedback to iterate the level designs instantly. And you can't build levels designed for UE4 lighting by using lumen as a previewer - by the answers in the Q&A at the end of the lumen video - so every level would need baked and adjusted, and re-baked. But using proxy meshes - traditional polygon meshes - instead of the nanite geometry, which might be megascans - that far exceed the traditional HW T&L pipeline capabilities even on more powerful cards than a 1060.

Let's take a look at option (2) done to its fullest, and what that really means for PC hardware to do the same but better.

6 CPU cores for game engine logic
2 CPU cores for additional SW RT using AVX
IO complex and SDD being heavily used for streaming data like 8K textures
GPU used for real-time SW GI/RT and BVH accelerators used for some HW RT, using the full fill-rate of GPU.

Even if you can use 4 stronger CPU cores on a PC instead of 6 mobile ones on a console, and rely on more HW RT on a GPU to avoid the AVX need. There is still no way around the IO complex without directStorage and an RTX IO type card with fast nvme SSD, and in this day and age, going below 1080p30 native on a PC game to get round the fillrate just isn't going to help perception of a AAA game at full price IMO.

Nvidia themselves have made the RTX IO card only usable with RTX GPUs - probably because lesser cards don't have enough cache bandwidth and spare compute to do their normal job and do real-time decompression at the same time. So if PlayStation first party games are built with option (2) styled requirements, it is effectively another development cycle to produce the game to work on a 4 core cpu and GTX 1060, and without decompression. And that's assuming that the real-time SW RT isn't integral to how levels play by being dynamic GI.
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
It doesn't make sense, because they are mutually exclusive, because the UE4 lighting paths are lots and lots of recursive work because it takes - IIRC 10 - hours to typically bake a level change for previous gen designed games - from what Daniel said in the UE5 lumen video. Light mass gives them real-time previewing, but is only indicative, and won't catch all situations, like small lighting bleeding that can destroy the look of a scene, and then needs fixed and re-baked.

Designing with UE5 real-time SW GI/RT with hw RT for close up stuff provides developers with feedback to iterate the level designs instantly. And you can't build levels designed for UE4 lighting by using lumen as a previewer - by the answers in the Q&A at the end of the lumen video - so every level would need baked and adjusted, and re-baked. But using proxy meshes - traditional polygon meshes - instead of the nanite geometry, which might be megascans - that far exceed the traditional HW T&L pipeline capabilities even on more powerful cards than a 1060.
Yet here we have a UE5 demo designed to be as demanding as possible and to take advantage of next-gen hardware running on a gtx 1060.
I agree developers don't have to go out of their way to redevelop big parts of their game to run better in older hardware. Its unnecessary, though that doesn't mean they can't do it and have both versions available to the PC public, kinda like Metro Exodus EE that has two executables, one with the traditional lightining and another that had its whole engine reworked to use nothing but RT.

Let's take a look at option (2) done to its fullest, and what that really means for PC hardware to do the same but better.

6 CPU cores for game engine logic
2 CPU cores for additional SW RT using AVX
IO complex and SDD being heavily used for streaming data like 8K textures
GPU used for real-time SW GI/RT and BVH accelerators used for some HW RT, using the full fill-rate of GPU.

Even if you can use 4 stronger CPU cores on a PC instead of 6 mobile ones on a console, and rely on more HW RT on a GPU to avoid the AVX need. There is still no way around the IO complex without directStorage and an RTX IO type card with fast nvme SSD, and in this day and age, going below 1080p30 native on a PC game to get round the fillrate just isn't going to help perception of a AAA game at full price IMO.

Nvidia themselves have made the RTX IO card only usable with RTX GPUs - probably because lesser cards don't have enough cache bandwidth and spare compute to do their normal job and do real-time decompression at the same time. So if PlayStation first party games are built with option (2) styled requirements, it is effectively another development cycle to produce the game to work on a 4 core cpu and GTX 1060, and without decompression. And that's assuming that the real-time SW RT isn't integral to how levels play by being dynamic GI.
in other words, you're working your logic using some imaginary game that has no traces of appearing yet. Its absolutely impossible to make a deep analysis of how well this nonexistent game will work on older hardware, which is why i'm using the closest thing we have which is the UE5 demo, that supposedly takes full advantage of next gen features and still works on a gtx 1060.

Sorry, but its impossible to keep arguing this point until you have an actual game or software to back up everything you're saying.
 
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PaintTinJr

Member
Yet here we have a UE5 demo designed to be as demanding as possible and to take advantage of next-gen hardware running on a gtx 1060.
I agree developers don't have to go out of their way to redevelop big parts of their game to run better in older hardware. Its unnecessary, though that doesn't mean they can't do it and have both versions available to the PC public, kinda like Metro Exodus EE that has two executables, one with the traditional lightining and another that had its whole engine reworked to use nothing but RT.


in other words, you're working your logic using some imaginary game that has no traces of appearing yet. Its absolutely impossible to make a deep analysis of how well this nonexistent game will work on older hardware, which is why I'm using the closest thing we have which is the UE5 demo, that supposedly takes full advantage of next gen features and still works on a gtx 1060.

Sorry, but its impossible to keep arguing this point until you have an actual game or software to back up everything you're saying.
Well it is impossible... if we disregard what PlayStation has done in transitioning every generation from PS1-PS4, and disregard their stance of believing in generations, because you yourself said the following
Of course it can't match it, its a 2016 card with older architecture and lower specs on about everything. It can match a ps4 pro at best.
.....
and there would be no point porting PlayStation first party exclusive games for a PC with a GTX 1060 running at sub-HDReady resolutions and without accelerated decompression if they aren't going to support the PS4 Pro with those games too, no?

You keep saying the land of the Ancient runs on a GTX 1060 - and now saying it is the closest we have...presumably to a next-gen game in your opinion - but at 540p it really only runs nanite successfully, because the number of rays traced per pixel for lumen's SW ray tracer is already sparse at native rendering resolution (@1080p and above) but punching way above the ray count in IQ - as Daniel fully explained in the video about lumen's technical details. So going as low at 960x540 (540p) and upscaling, and potentially using on big screens isn't giving the IQ intended of the solution.

UE5 demo isn't doing any more of a game level workload than the Lumen in the Land of nanite demo - like a Gears or Uncharted game would - with large amounts of non-nanite geometry using traditional T&L or HW RT, with collisions, etc, etc, and it doesn't have the massive rendering headroom (in milliseconds) like the PS5 demo had running at 1404p - capped at 30fps - so IMO all the factual data points still needing a minimum of a 1080ti for playing games using UE5's nanite/lumen tech.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
I think Sony will mix it up with ports. The frst ones are bigger budget games like Horizon, DG, GOW and UC. I think they'll toss in some smaller scale games after UC4. Sackboy might be the game after UC4.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Well it is impossible... if we disregard what PlayStation has done in transitioning every generation from PS1-PS4, and disregard their stance of believing in generations, because you yourself said the following

and there would be no point porting PlayStation first party exclusive games for a PC with a GTX 1060 running at sub-HDReady resolutions and without accelerated decompression if they aren't going to support the PS4 Pro with those games too, no?

You keep saying the land of the Ancient runs on a GTX 1060 - and now saying it is the closest we have...presumably to a next-gen game in your opinion - but at 540p it really only runs nanite successfully, because the number of rays traced per pixel for lumen's SW ray tracer is already sparse at native rendering resolution (@1080p and above) but punching way above the ray count in IQ - as Daniel fully explained in the video about lumen's technical details. So going as low at 960x540 (540p) and upscaling, and potentially using on big screens isn't giving the IQ intended of the solution.

UE5 demo isn't doing any more of a game level workload than the Lumen in the Land of nanite demo - like a Gears or Uncharted game would - with large amounts of non-nanite geometry using traditional T&L or HW RT, with collisions, etc, etc, and it doesn't have the massive rendering headroom (in milliseconds) like the PS5 demo had running at 1404p - capped at 30fps - so IMO all the factual data points still needing a minimum of a 1080ti for playing games using UE5's nanite/lumen tech.
I think you're misunderstanding the mindset of people playing on lower hardware.
No one who plans to go in the next gen still with a gtx 1060 has too strong of an interest in experiencing next-gen visuals, nor - as you put it - play on a big screen or something like that. They have no problems running games far below intended quality, what matters to them is for whatever game they're interested in to be playable.
Playing at upscaled 540p? If its playable like that, game on.

Besides, back to my very original point, i was simply using the gtx 1060, or the rtx 2060, or the gtx 1070, or the gtx 1660, without any of the high hardware specifications you're imposing, as examples that a next gen game can still run on hardware below ps5 specs by just dowgrading visual quality, that theres no need to redevelop things from the ground up - that you can have both a game that runs on the intended quality as long as your specs are up to par, as well as the same game running on lower specs hardware by bringing down some sliders.

I have shown you that this is possible through the use of an extreme example. If you want to prove your point, you'll need a game, a tech demo or something similar that absolutely needs each of the hardware specifications you imposed, and trying to play this game on any hardware that doesn't match these conditions has to be utterly impossible even with visual downgrades.
As long as you don't have such an example, then the point of alternatives 2 and 3 not being mutually exclusive still stands.
 
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Holammer

Member
I think Sony will mix it up with ports. The frst ones are bigger budget games like Horizon, DG, GOW and UC. I think they'll toss in some smaller scale games after UC4. Sackboy might be the game after UC4.
As one of the first PS5 release titles, very likely.
I'm increasingly puzzled by the lack of a fourth quarter release. The most profitable period of the year for any industry, including video games (especially as pandemic savings burn in consumer pockets), instead we get two confirmed early 2022 releases.

The last release was Days Gone in May and nothing since. I'mma activating my almonds right now and predicting a surprise nov/dec release. They gotta have something, Uncharted Trilogy? Anything.
 

StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
As one of the first PS5 release titles, very likely.
I'm increasingly puzzled by the lack of a fourth quarter release. The most profitable period of the year for any industry, including video games (especially as pandemic savings burn in consumer pockets), instead we get two confirmed early 2022 releases.

The last release was Days Gone in May and nothing since. I'mma activating my almonds right now and predicting a surprise nov/dec release. They gotta have something, Uncharted Trilogy? Anything.
More will come after UC4. I'll say two more at minimum. A Q3 and Q4 release. Could be big budget. Could be smaller scale. Sony has a lot of backlog ports to catch up on.
 

Holammer

Member


(Time stamped)

Digital Foundry had a stream where they talked about various topics including the Sackboy rumor. Most of it is unimportant waffle, but Richard Leadbetter makes a good point by asking if Microsoft's PC strategy actually hurt Xbox in any way.
 

PaintTinJr

Member
I think you're misunderstanding the mindset of people playing on lower hardware.
No one who plans to go in the next gen still with a gtx 1060 has too strong of an interest in experiencing next-gen visuals, nor - as you put it - play on a big screen or something like that. They have no problems running games far below intended quality, what matters to them is for whatever game they're interested in to be playable.
Playing at upscaled 540p? If its playable like that, game on.

Besides, back to my very original point, i was simply using the gtx 1060, or the rtx 2060, or the gtx 1070, or the gtx 1660, without any of the high hardware specifications you're imposing, as examples that a next gen game can still run on hardware below ps5 specs by just dowgrading visual quality, that theres no need to redevelop things from the ground up - that you can have both a game that runs on the intended quality as long as your specs are up to par, as well as the same game running on lower specs hardware by bringing down some sliders.

I have shown you that this is possible through the use of an extreme example. If you want to prove your point, you'll need a game, a tech demo or something similar that absolutely needs each of the hardware specifications you imposed, and trying to play this game on any hardware that doesn't match these conditions has to be utterly impossible even with visual downgrades.
As long as you don't have such an example, then the point of alternatives 2 and 3 not being mutually exclusive still stands.
I can only assume you've forgotten why we ended up in this discussion - if you setting up that strawman - because this discussion we began was about what strategy PlayStation will take with its (non-cross-gen) development of PS5 game that - we all now assume - will come to PC, too at some point because Sackboy was the poster game for PS5 cards, and it is probably getting ported, as per the thread topic.

In general I agree with your implied view that PlayStation won't get to set the minimum specs for the PC ports by claiming it needs x-hardware,- because PC gamers have always determined their own minimum specs from trying on anything and everything with lowest modified settings.

But in reality the real minimum specs of a port, for the wider audience that goes on to buy the game - which is the important reason why PlayStation are risking damaging their console brand in favour of PC gamer money - will be determined by outlets like DF and what they are happy to back as playable in delivering the game as intended - when people take their advice and buy the game and upgrade hardware to play.

Outlets like DF won't recommend weakest PCs that can "play it" by technicality at 540p or less, if not delivering the game experience as intended. By extension, PlayStation will be judging the potential market size for a port by that same spec criteria, not the weakest ones you keep projecting downward that would suggest options 2 and 3 aren't mutually exclusive options for PlayStation porting PS5 games to PC.
 
Any decision by Sony to stagger out PC ports of PS5 games by any determined period of time (6-month, 1-year, 2-year, 3-year) will be due to business factors, not technological ones.

A question still up for debate is if, in the case Sony brings all PS5 1P games to PC within a 1-year timeframe or even Day-and-Date, and that is known by customers, does it have an impact on 3P sales on PlayStation as well as subs to PS+ and PS Now, and whether that impact is a positive or negative one. Sony probably still don't have an answer to that and are likely keeping an eye on Microsoft-related things like GP/retail sub/sales splits of 1P and 3P games available in both Day-and-Date (or various time frames between the two), 3P software sales on Xbox Series, Xbox Series system sales (including rate of sales and pacing when compared to XBO and 360), etc. and basing a lot of their release scheduling around that, knowing what Microsoft's strategy for Xbox/PC Day-and-Date is.

At the very least, though, there will be at least a couple of Day-and-Date PS5/PC games this gen, most likely MP-centric ones like TLOU2: Factions or Firesprite's game, that type of stuff. Also a possibility it could be WRT PC-centric games like Everquest making a return (I think that could be a possibility with their PlayStation PC ambitions).
 
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Guilty_AI

Member
But in reality the real minimum specs of a port, for the wider audience that goes on to buy the game - which is the important reason why PlayStation are risking damaging their console brand in favour of PC gamer money - will be determined by outlets like DF and what they are happy to back as playable in delivering the game as intended - when people take their advice and buy the game and upgrade hardware to play.

Outlets like DF won't recommend weakest PCs that can "play it" by technicality at 540p or less, if not delivering the game experience as intended. By extension, PlayStation will be judging the potential market size for a port by that same spec criteria, not the weakest ones you keep projecting downward that would suggest options 2 and 3 aren't mutually exclusive options for PlayStation porting PS5 games to PC.
If thats your view on things - using steam survey and the last reported number of active steam users as a basis - Sony is still looking at some good 15 million potential costumers (even bigger than the last reported number of ps5 sold in fact). The people willing to downgrade the game or upgrade their system is more of a bonus actually.

Also, "damaging their brand", lol. If anything they're expanding it.
 
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