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[Keri]

And again, this is still ignoring the fact that movie stars on average only result in $3 million of revenue. Because no one gives as much as they say they do about who's in a film versus what the film is about.

I hope that's true. It's definitely true for films like Star Wars, but honestly, I'm still reeling from all the backlash to the Ghostbusters reboot. It seemed like people cared a lot about women leads in that film, in a really bad way. I worry that the reception to that film is going to affect opportunities for women, going forward.

I mean, maybe you're right and we're farther along than I think we are. The numbers for women in Hollywood weren't great in 2015, but they're getting better. I'll admit that I've been feeling pretty pessimistic about the state of things, lately.

 

[lightskintwin]

That is exactly what's going to happen. They hired ScarJo in the first place because she's a "bankable white actress." If the film succeeds, all it's going to do is cement the notion that ScarJo is a safe bet for anime adaptations. Then we'll get another Dragon Ball movie starring her as Bulma or some shit, and we'll still be told that there's somehow no precedent for women in leading action roles, that we should be grateful ScarJo is leading the charge, and that we need to keep testing the waters to make sure it's okay for minority actresses to get their shot one day, forever ignoring the fact that movie stars are becoming less and less relevant to the overall success of any given film because people are more interested in the subject matter than the actors headlining a project.

The only way for minorities to get their due is to put them in starring roles. Relying on white people to be our saviors is only going to create a feedback loop of white creators hiring white stars because that's all who ever gets hired and thus that's all who is ever allowed to succeed.

Pretty much. The reality is Hollywood is a White institution that's primarily concerned with cultivating a pipeline of White actors to become Hollywood stars to star in their films. I ain't even mad at that, just admit that and quit acting like they're concerned about diversity and plan to do something about it while giving self-serving, pat on the back, congratulatory speeches to themselves at award shows.

I think the best model is to copy what African Americans did and build your own institutions and infrastructure and cultivate your own stars.

I think that's definitely a risk and I think it will be fair to criticize studios for doing that (just as I think it's fair to criticize the studio now, for casting Scarlett Johannson), but I also don't think we're at the point yet, where women carrying action films has been normalized. I think it's still seen as a risk, by the studios that produce these films. (With maybe the exception of the Hunger Games, which had a built in Young Adult audience?) I think that what others have said is true - if Scarlett Johannson wasn't starring, this movie probably wouldn't have been made at all. Which is why I think - yes, criticize the studio - but Johannson's participation is still a net benefit.

I get how terrible it is, but I think the reality of racism makes it so white women have to be the ones who try to break through the first barrier, because the world is all the more likely to reject minority women. If we ignore the reality of racism then I don't think we can effectively move forward for any women. But yes, feminism has to be held accountable for pushing forward the rights of minority women too.

Keri, there is no controversy about a woman being in the lead of this film. It was always going to be a female-led film. Do you get why making this a woman issue, when it wasn't one, to begin with, is ignoring the actual issue/controversy problematic? The issue was the race/ethnicity of the character of an Asian property with an Asian lead during a time when Asian Americans get very few if any opportunities.

As somebody who claims to be a champion of feminism, I'm honestly shocked at how easily you dismiss the actual issue/controversy and so quickly buy into the win for women . It's textbook White feminism.

 

[Nepenthe]

Are they? The only recent female led action films I can think of off the top of my head are the Hunger Games movies and they had a built in Young-Adult audience. Oh, and Star Wars, but that also a large built in audience. I didn't see Lucy...but the impression I've gotten is that it wasn't really a success.

The Force Awakens
Rogue One
Prometheus
The Resident Evil franchise
The Underworld franchise
The Hunger Games franchise
The Divergent franchise
Mad Max: Fury Road
Lucy
Hannah
Jupiter Ascending
Pride and Prejudice and Zombies
If we're going into western animation recently, Zootopia and Moana (I guess you can count Tangled and Frozen too, the latter of which is the highest grossing animated film ever (hngh))

And that's just off the top of my head. I would imagine there's more.

Also, Lucy actually did pretty damn great considering-- $460 million on a $40 million budget, with average to above average reviews.

I hope that's true. It's definitely true for films like Star Wars, but honestly, I'm still reeling from all the backlash to the Ghostbusters reboot. It seemed like people cared a lot about women leads in that film, in a really bad way. I worry that the reception to that film is going to affect opportunities for women, going forward.

I mean, maybe you're right and we're farther along than I think we are. The numbers for women in Hollywood weren't great in 2015, but they're getting better. I'll admit that I've been feeling pretty pessimistic about the state of things, lately.

The Ghostbusters film was a unique mixture of feminism, fragile male nerd culture, Sony, a nostalgic previously male-led property, and Internet culture all coming to a head and thus exploding. The film's reception was hijacked by misogynistic, alt-right douchelords right out of the gate when the cast was announced on Salon without any accompanying visuals, and when the less-than-perfect trailers came out people who were genuinely offput by them provided the perfect cover for said douchelords to continue pushing their narrative and make a bigger scene than what the movie really called for. It was basically film's Gamergate, but unlike gaming I'm not sure it's particularly representative of the overwhelming film culture at large, because Rogue One came in and shat on most of the male-led Star Wars films anyway and they haven't had dick to say about it so. *shrugs*

 

[Ronin Ray]

I think it might have something to do with it. I think the criticisms are valid, but I also think that people who are generally against feminism, are using these arguments to turn women and minorities against each other or to generally try to delegitimize feminism and discourage people from listening to what feminists have to say. I've tried to specifically target posts in this thread, that I think were trying to do this.



Are they? The only recent female led action films I can think of off the top of my head are the Hunger Games movies and they had a built in Young-Adult audience. Oh, and Star Wars, but that also a large built in audience. I didn't see Lucy...but the impression I've gotten is that it wasn't really a success.



The alternative is to wait until racism is defeated, before doing anything.

Underworld, Resident Evil although both of the newer films in those franchise haven't done as hot but they usually make a profit given there budget. Not sure if you want to count suicide squad and the upcoming Wonder Women. Then there were films like Haywire stating Gina Carano. Also there were action movies head lined by Angelina jolie the last 10 years are so. Salt, wanted etc o and there is a new Tomb Raider movie. Plus you could say Chralize thorn is co headliner of Mad Max Fury Road and she had that aeon flux movie. Almost every movie above does share the same similar trait.

Edit the post above beat me to a list of female lead action movies

 

[lightskintwin]

Underworld, Resident Evil although both of the newer films in those franchise haven't done as hot but they usually make a profit given there budget. Not sure if you want to count suicide squad and the upcoming Wonder Women. Then there were films like Haywire stating Gina Carano. Also there were action movies head lined by Angelina jolie the last 10 years are so. Salt, wanted etc o and there is a new Tomb Raider movie. Plus you could say Chralize thorn is co headliner of Mad Max Fury Road and she had that aeon flux movie. Almost every movie above does share the same similar trait.

Edit the post above beat me to a list of female lead action movies

Kill Bill, The Mortal Instruments, Beautiful Creatures, Tomorrowland, The Host, The 5th Wave... The list goes on and on.

Keri is legit being disingenuous.

 

[Oersted]

Are they? The only recent female led action films I can think of off the top of my head are the Hunger Games movies and they had a built in Young-Adult audience. Oh, and Star Wars, but that also a large built in audience. I didn't see Lucy...but the impression I've gotten is that it wasn't really a success.

440 on a 40 mil budget. Did better than the last Bourne or Jack Reacher movie.

 

[Akainu]

As opposed to minority men, telling minority women to just wait their turn? (Like with voting rights).

Fucking really? You do know that's the same kind of shit white female suffragettes told minority women right? What's your excuse for that?

 

[wandering]

 

[Valkerionseven]

But they cast a Japanese guy to play the Major's boss! Racial equality!

Spoiler

You know they would have cast Ken Watanabe in the role if he wasn't battling stomach cancer.

Probably, but the actor/director, Beat Takeshi is probably one of the most famous people in Japan itself even over Watanabe.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

As opposed to minority men, telling minority women to just wait their turn? (Like with voting rights).

This aint have shit to do with what I said.

I get pissed off when men try to pretend that feminism isn't necessary and the only issue which needs to be addressed is racism,

No one said that. I said it's not fucking acceptable to take a piece of media featuring developed and featuring people of color and then whitewash the fuck out of it and pretend it's positive.

This situation is notwhich is again what you're saying above, when you discount that this movie increases the representation of women in film. And I'm generally skeptical over whether the discussion is intended to further the rights of minority women or to just stop feminist discussion in general, because men have a real good track of record of trying to do that.

I don't give a shit whether you are skeptical. I have a problem with white washing in hollywood. I don't fucking care whether they are men or women. This property is distinctly japanese and the main character not "minimally" being of Asian descent is just another example of people pretending that it's okay to write PoC out of roles because we are not meeting arbitrary standands that white media doesn't even want to fix.

We should all be working together and acknowledging the importance of both issues, instead of trying to tear down one.

You are not fooling anyone. You don't want people to talk about racism. This has nothing to do with everyone tearing down feminism. No one is out here saying women shouldn't be getting rolls. People are saying women or colour shouldn't have to be passed over for roles of characters who are minorities.

You can acknowledge that this film is a victory and still comment on the need for more victories and specifically the need for victories for minority women. Instead, it turns into just pure criticisms of the small step that was achieved. It turns into "this fucking sucks" and statements that suggests sexism is over.

No one has ever implied sexism is over. Stop this.

 

[Japanmanx3]

Love the franchise, love ScarJo. Hope the movie is good.

If the movie does well I bet they make Akira...and then we are going to have the same problems. Asians won't be the leads. Hollywood gonna Hollywood.

If Akira pulls a Dragon Ball Evolutions or a GITS I would be highly perturbed. That would be so stupid. Same if a proper Gundam wing film came out.

 

[Dongs Macabre]

"The master's tools will never dismantle the master's house."

 

[HStallion]

Probably, but the actor/director, Beat Takeshi is probably one of the most famous people in Japan itself even over Watanabe.

I love Beat Takashi but lets be honest. They would have cast Watanabe as he's basically the go to Asian guy for Hollywood

 

[PatThePassive]

If Akira pulls a Dragon Ball Evolutions or a GITS I would be highly perturbed. That would be so stupid. Same if a proper Gundam wing film came out.

Akira is a lot more about japan than GITS ever was (especially the GITS movies) so I believe it would be on a whole other level.

Gundam they will hopefully be happy with the spacenoids being white like char and not try to change the races of other characters.

With the super bowl promo I also believe it will be far better the DBZ evolution, but thats not really that hard.

I love Beat Takashi but lets be honest. They would have cast Watanabe as he's basically the go to Asian guy for Hollywood

Watanabe is way to young he would fit in akira tho as the general.

 

[Akainu]

People still pulling that "wouldn't be made without her" crap.

 

[lightskintwin]

Akira is a lot more about japan than GITS ever was (especially the GITS movies) so I believe it would be on a whole other level.

Gundam they will hopefully be happy with the spacenoids being white like char and not try to change the races of other characters.

With the super bowl promo I also believe it will be far better the DBZ evolution, but thats not really that hard.

You're giving Hollywood too much credit for Akira. LOL Shoehorning White people is their specialty.

 

[kswiston]

You're giving Hollywood too much credit for Akira. LOL Shoehorning White people is their specialty.

The Hollywood Akira outline that was floating around for awhile wasn't even set in Japan.

 

[PatThePassive]

You're giving Hollywood too much credit for Akira. LOL Shoehorning White people is their specialty.

I like to think they are listening, Moonlight is gonna take the best picture.

Hidden figures received some awards too, their giving these movies awards because they are great, and they don't have a white lead so hopefully the Hollywood formula is being changed.

And wasn't there a large push back when the american akira script leaked (in the early 2000s?)

I will be optimistic until proven otherwise.

The Hollywood Akira outline that was floating around for awhile wasn't even set in Japan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jafd97yJFOI

 

[HStallion]

The Hollywood Akira outline that was floating around for awhile wasn't even set in Japan.

If they actually made an Akira movie I would love if they changed the titular character's name to something more generically Western to reflect the change in everything else.

STEVE

Based on the work of Katsuhiro Otomo

 

[wandering]

There was that concept art featuring Chris Evans and Joseph Gordon-Levitt

Also we already got an Akira movie in Chronicle

 

[lightskintwin]

I like to think they are listening, Moonlight is gonna take the best picture.

Hidden figures received some awards too, their giving these movies awards because they are great, and they don't have a white lead so hopefully the Hollywood formula is being changed.

And wasn't there a large push back when the american akira script leaked (in the early 2000s?)

I will be optimistic until proven otherwise.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jafd97yJFOI

Moonlight is a low budget, independent film written and directed by a Black guy.

Hidden Figures is your classic American historical drama, period piece, ensemble cast, civil rights era, inspirational Oscar bait type of film Hollywood loves to make.

Fences is a stage play from a Black guy adapted by the same Black guy and Directed by a Black guy.

It's not indicative of anything except the only type of change that works is having to do it yourself.

 

[Whompa02]

As a fan of ghost in the shell, I'm embarrassed for everyone who thinks Mokoto Kusinagi is Asian.

Her race, gender, and even origin is intentionally ambiguous.

So many uninformed people...

 

[lightskintwin]

As a fan of ghost in the shell, I'm embarrassed for everyone who thinks Mokoto Kusinagi is Asian.

Her race, gender, and even origin is intentionally ambiguous.

So many uninformed people...

LOL

It's the real world applications that people have a problem with not whether it can fit within the theme of the film.

If her race doesn't matter, then why does she default to a White woman in a film adaptation?

 

[PatThePassive]

Moonlight is a low budget, independent film written and directed by a Black guy.

Hidden Figures is your classic American historical drama, period piece, ensemble cast, civil rights era, inspirational Oscar bait type of film Hollywood loves to make.

Fences is a stage play from a Black guy adapted by the same Black guy and Directed by a Black guy.

It's not indicative of anything except the only type of change that works is having to do it yourself.

And now they are getting more recognition for their work? Not sure what you want, black directors are bringing us great films with black leads.

They had to do it themselves and I think it left its impression.

As a fan of ghost in the shell, I'm embarrassed for everyone who thinks Mokoto Kusinagi is Asian.

Her race, gender, and even origin is intentionally ambiguous.

So many uninformed people...

Don't start that again lets save it for the movie OT its so close.

 

[lightskintwin]

And now they are getting more recognition for their work? Not sure what you want, black directors are bring us great films with black leads.

They had to do it themselves and I think it left its impression.

No, my point is you brought this up in a thread about Asian American representation and the dismissal of the controversy by SJ and then somehow correlated recent African American success to Hollywood improving Asian American representation when they cast Akira.

I don't see the connection.

 

[Spasm]

As a fan of ghost in the shell, I'm embarrassed for everyone who thinks Mokoto Kusinagi is Asian.

Her race, gender, and even origin is intentionally ambiguous.

So many uninformed people...

Indeed.

 

[Akainu]

As a fan of ghost in the shell, I'm embarrassed for everyone who thinks Mokoto Kusinagi is Asian.

Her race, gender, and even origin is intentionally ambiguous.

So many uninformed people...

You forgot the /s right? Sarcasm meters don't work too good in these threads.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

I get that this only adds another tick to the whitewashing counter, I'm trying to see it from a studio's perspective:

Ghost in the Shell isn't exactly a popular franchise or well known. Looking at the production credits you think, "who?" Rupert Sanders? Who? All I think is "who" or "what" about this movie except ScarJo. I'm going to guess the budget is kind of up there so I can see a company going, "we need someone or something that's recognizable and just saying 'it's one of the inspirations for the Matrix'" isn't gonna cut it. Sure, the data may not be 100% there in that a big name star doesn't mean benjamins but if I was the studio or producers backing this project, I'd be willing to throw my lot in for something to be recognizable to a large audience.

They should have made this a MARVEL production and cast Idris Elba and it'd make money.

 

[PatThePassive]

No, my point is you brought this up in a thread about Asian American representation and the dismissal of the controversy by SJ and then somehow correlated recent African American success to Hollywood improving Asian American representation when they cast Akira.

I don't see the connection.

I was responding to a post about the attempted and probably will happen american Akira and the likelyhood that they would whitewash the cast.

I brought up the recent success of black directors and actors in lead rolls to counter the Hollywood only wants white stars, which relates directly to this GITS movie, Scar Jo and this thread.

I know black Americans and and Asian Americans are not the same but the connection is still not hard to make man.

"Minorities won't bring money, they don't have enough star power!"

And how do you counter that? The real logical answer to it is of course, to nurture minority actors in order to grow their star power so that they can fit comfortably in a lead. Plus, considering China is soon if not already the world's biggest market for cinemas, don't you folks think that the time to nurture and create legit Asian stars has never been more appropriate than now?

But of course, people will also counter that with, "But they won't have enough star power!"

Well of fucking course if they never even got the goddamn chance to mature and develop with all the whitewashing.

I don't see the connection.

 

[asagami_]

Indeed.

Eh, Mokoto is japanese, but she is

Spoiler

more cyborg than human since she was a child. She doesn't look, neither think, as a japanese. In fact, she can change her appearance if she wants.

Anyway, even if I think Scarlett is not a bad choice for the character, I still think an asian actress would be a better option.

 

[Laughing Banana]

"Minorities won't bring money, they don't have enough star power!"

And how do you counter that? The real logical answer to it is of course, to nurture minority actors in order to grow their star power so that they can fit comfortably in a lead. Plus, considering China is soon if not already the world's biggest market for cinemas, don't you folks think that the time to nurture and create legit Asian stars has never been more appropriate than now?

But of course, people will also counter that with, "But they won't have enough star power!"

Well of fucking course if they never even got the goddamn chance to mature and develop with all the whitewashing.

 

[Akainu]

I get that this only adds another tick to the whitewashing counter, I'm trying to see it from a studio's perspective:

Ghost in the Shell isn't exactly a popular franchise or well known. Looking at the production credits you think, "who?" Rupert Sanders? Who? All I think is "who" or "what" about this movie except ScarJo. I'm going to guess the budget is kind of up there so I can see a company going, "we need someone or something that's recognizable and just saying 'it's one of the inspirations for the Matrix'" isn't gonna cut it. Sure, the data may not be 100% there in that a big name star doesn't mean benjamins but if I was the studio or producers backing this project, I'd be willing to throw my lot in for something to be recognizable to a large audience.

They should have made this a MARVEL production and cast Idris Elba and it'd make money.

So you pick Margot Robbie...unfortunately she's unavailable.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

So you pick Margot Robbie...unfortunately she's unavailable.

i'm trying to find the article where it's described they literally offered margot robbie the role. i can find she's in "early talks" which can mean a lot. it does say scarjo was offered 10 million. what was margot robbie's offer?

 

[lightskintwin]

I was responding to a post about the attempted and probably will happen american Akira and the likelyhood that they would whitewash the cast.

I brought up the recent success of black directors and actors in lead rolls to counter the Hollywood only wants white stars, which relates directly to this GITS movie, Scar Jo and this thread.

I know black Americans and and Asian Americans are not the same but the connection is still not hard to make man.

It is hard to make the connection because African Americans have Black stars. Fences had Denzel and Viola to lead. Hidden Figures had Taraji, Janelle, and Octavia to lead. Moonlight didn't but it's a low budget, passion project and had to rely on buzz and critical acclaim in order to generate it's audience.

No, the contention is Hollywood is primarily concerned with the cultivation, development, of unknown White actors to create White stars to star in their films. The majority of Black Stars who became Hollywood stars did it in spite of the fact of them being Black and often times needed Black directors to cast them, otherwise, it wouldn't have happened.

Asian Americans still have the same obstacles that will continue until somebody takes a risk, or a pan-Asian American film network gets created and they focus on Asian American narratives and cast Asian Americans and potentially create their own stars that can then move onto big budget Hollywood mainstream films.

 

[PatThePassive]

It is hard to make the connection because African Americans have Black stars. Fences had Denzel and Viola to lead. Hidden Figures had Taraji, Janelle, and Octavia to lead. Moonlight didn't but it's low budget, passion project and had to rely on buzz and critical acclaim in order to generate it's audience.

No, the contention is Hollywood is primarily concerned with the cultivation, development, of unknown White actors to create White stars to star in their films. The majority of Black Stars who became Hollywood stars did it in spite of the fact of them being Black and often times needed Black directors to cast them, otherwise, it wouldn't have happened.

Asian Americans still have the same obstacles that will continue until somebody takes a risk, or a pan-Asian American film network gets created and they focus on Asian American narratives and cast Asian Americans and potentially create their own stars that can then move onto big budget Hollywood mainstream films.

True, the connection is still there

Never said its still not a challenge for any minority to get roles, just that I like to believe that can change, as consumers we can only change that by going to see the smaller films with more diverse leads

Hollywood will catch on eventually

 

[Ratrat]

What was the excuse for casting the nobody white actors in Dragon Ball or The Last Airbender? They weren't even talented.

 

[MarveI]

Who are some good examples of this recently, aside from Daisy Ridley?

Every single one of them at some point ? Gender aside look at the top actors. They've all started somewhere because they were given a chance, chances. They didn't born bankable day 1. They've been given many many opportunities in varies mediums to reach that status. And I disagree that audiences need a draw. They really don't. It's just an excuse to cover a major issue up. Hollywood created this facade.

White woman ''yeah we have it so tough being a woman and all''. Diversity ?Women of color ? ''That's important too I guess ? But I'm not fussed about it as it doesn't apply to me so let's skip this part''.

Decades ago people said that putting any women, even white women in a lead role wouldn't work. People wouldn't watch it. Not bankable enough. Bla bla...guess what. In the end it doesn't matter to the viewer.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

What was the excuse for casting the nobody white actors in Dragon Ball or The Last Airbender? They weren't even talented.

i'm pretty sure if asians were cast in dragonball then they definitely would never get work and in the history books it will say "dragonball ruined everything" white folks had to take that hit and even then they needed c level stars just because the studio had the respect not to ruin someone's career.

avatar the last airbender was white washing 100%.

 

[Zero315]

I get that this only adds another tick to the whitewashing counter, I'm trying to see it from a studio's perspective:

Ghost in the Shell isn't exactly a popular franchise or well known. Looking at the production credits you think, "who?" Rupert Sanders? Who? All I think is "who" or "what" about this movie except ScarJo. I'm going to guess the budget is kind of up there so I can see a company going, "we need someone or something that's recognizable and just saying 'it's one of the inspirations for the Matrix'" isn't gonna cut it. Sure, the data may not be 100% there in that a big name star doesn't mean benjamins but if I was the studio or producers backing this project, I'd be willing to throw my lot in for something to be recognizable to a large audience.

They should have made this a MARVEL production and cast Idris Elba and it'd make money.

Except the "Bankable Star" argument falls apart when studios throw blockbuster films at people like Taylor Kitsch, Sam Worthington, Armie Hammer, Chris Pine, Shia LeBeouf, Hugh Jackman, etc. while being virtually unknown.

At this point "Bankable Star" is just a codeword for white.

 

[lightskintwin]

True, the connection is still there

Never said its still not a challenge for any minority to get roles, just that I like to believe that can change, as consumers we can only change that by going to see the smaller films with more diverse leads

Hollywood will catch on eventually

I wish I could be as optimistic as you are, but Hollywood won't catch on eventually because it's not designed to. Everybody and their mama want to be a Hollywood star and you not only have a huge pipeline of talent from America but from all over Europe, Australia, etc... because the majority of people behind the scenes are White too and they want to see themselves on the screen and why they give them opportunities. On some level, I don't fault them.

And if GITS is successful it will just reinforce Hollywood's notion the need for a Hollywood star in an Anime/Manga adaptation, with a big budget and hopefully good reviews and we're back to the circular argument of there being no Asian American stars.

 

[Whompa02]

Here's a fun read for people:

https://www.quora.com/Is-Major-Motoko-Kusanagi-from-Ghost-in-the-Shell-Caucasian

Indeed.

On iPhone, I think you got the message regardless.

Her name is an alias anyway...

LOL

It's the real world applications that people have a problem with not whether it can fit within the theme of the film.

If her race doesn't matter, then why does she default to a White woman in a film adaptation?

Ask the original director why she's depicted as a pale, racially ambiguous person...maybe she just fit the character.

I'm not a huge scar jo fan, but the needless and petty white person debate is so tired.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Except the "Bankable Star" argument falls apart when studios throw blockbuster films at people like Taylor Kitsch, Sam Worthington, Armie Hammer, Chris Pine, Shia LeBeouf, Hugh Jackman, etc. while being virtually unknown.

At this point "Bankable Star" is just a codeword for white.

Alright, I'm a do a bit of research on these guys:

Taylor Kitsch: was in Friday Night Lights which was sort of popular and critically acclaimed. Snakes on a Plane helped (ok not). For John Carter, remember he was just getting off his Friday Night Light's high similar to how Bryan Cranston or Idris Elba HAVE to be in every movie since The Wire, Breaking Bad, and Luthor. He has fizzled a bit since those days so he's no longer as bankable as we may think.

Sam Worthinton: he had 11 movies before Terminator Salvation which he wasn't the main character. He did put in his due in some recognizable movies to eventually land himself a co-star role against Christian Bale in Salvation. Avatar came out the same year but this isn't a movie led by Sam Worthington but James Cameron. You could have replaced Jake Sully with any random mother fucker and it would make the exact same amount of money. Even Idris Elba.

Armie Hammer: similar career start as Sam Worthing except he had Social Network cred and J Edgar with Leonardio DiCaprio. It doesn't strike me as too odd he would eventually get cast for a big budget movie. The Lone Ranger does seem to lean towards Jack Sparrow, though. Since those days Mr. Hammer doesn't seem to be handed any lead in big budgets, though.

Chris Pine: not sure, maybe he sucks a mean dick because his info is quite odd. I'll give you that.

Hugh Jackman: his breakout role was in an ensemble blockbuster movie that cost $75 million to make. The studio took a very low risk.

They're not virtually unknown (except Chris Pine -- how that fucker do it?!), they got a decent portfolio behind them and the ones who do perform well seem to have continued success. But folks like Taylor Kitsch and Sam Worthington (unless a new Titans movie comes) and Armie Hammer aren't exactly getting big leads in blockbusters nowadays.

ScarJo has a decent portfolio behind her that makes be bankable to a degree (jn their minds).

Like, no one's knocking on Mr. Hammer's door to sign him up to lead in the next unknown franchise movie that costs $200 million.


Like, I'm not saying whitewashing doesn't exist or Hollywood isn't biased against Asians or other minorities due to the perceived lost profits but it's not like 100% of all white leads are handed big budget roles for no raisin, they all were visible at some point. The whiteness part really only seems to matters when comparing two capable candidates but the studio takes the white person. Except Chris Pine.

 

[lightskintwin]

Ask the original director why she's depicted as a pale, racially ambiguous person...maybe she just fit the character.

I'm not a huge scar jo fan, but the needless and petty white person debate is so tired.

You're still missing the point.

 

[Keri]

Keri, there is no controversy about a woman being in the lead of this film. It was always going to be a female-led film. Do you get why making this a woman issue, when it wasn't one, to begin with, is ignoring the actual issue/controversy problematic?

There was always going to be a woman lead in this film, if it was made. I don't think it was guaranteed to be made though, which is why I would still consider it a general "win" for the representation of women in Hollywood. Also, I see the point you are making, but I don't think I'm the one who made this into a "woman issue." The article brought both up - Johannson discussing sexism and then the Ghost in the Shell controversy. I assumed the point was to encourage criticism of Johannson and to delegitimize her efforts to address sexism. If the article was just "Johannson sidesteps Ghost in Shell controversy," I don't think I would have responded the same, because then the discussion would have only been about the singular issue, but I have to concede that I might be a tad sensitive about this.

Also, I completely agree with criticizing the studio and I think that doing so helps minority women by communicating to the studios that films with minority women are wanted. I just don't understand the criticism directed towards Scarlett Johansson, as an individual. I think those criticisms are misdirected.

Also, I want to say to everyone that engaged in this discussion with me, I'm sorry that I wasn't able to actively participate or respond to everything. I've had a really busy day and I tried to participate when I could, but I didn't have a lot of time. For what it's worth, you guys were able to list a lot of action movies with female leads and it does seem like things aren't as bad as I thought. So, I feel a little bit better about that and I hope that minority women get to have a similar feeling soon.

 

[wandering]

The whiteness part really only seems to matters when comparing two capable candidates but the studio takes the white person. Except Chris Pine.

And yet household names like Steven Yeun and John Cho still struggle to land meaningful roles

https://geeksofcolor.co/2017/02/01/steven-yeun-should-not-be-auditoning-for-5-line-roles/

http://www.pajiba.com/think_pieces/not-your-korean-sidekick-the-frustrating-career-of-john-cho.php

 

[Subpar Spatula]

And yet household names like Steven Yeun and John Cho still struggle to land meaningful roles

https://geeksofcolor.co/2017/02/01/steven-yeun-should-not-be-auditoning-for-5-line-roles/

http://www.pajiba.com/think_pieces/not-your-korean-sidekick-the-frustrating-career-of-john-cho.php

which they should get their chance at. the post was about how white leads weren't just given roles while being "virtually unknown". for actresses it's different because hollywood has such a smaller pool they choose from because meryl streep can't be cast for everything so they try to find the most "bankable" star which seems to be ScarJo.

movies sell because of the franchise. if a franchise is super popular like Star Wars you can basically throw 3 nobodies (well just the lead) in and it'd make bank (if it's good or mediocre like rogue one). james cameron is his own franchise. what do you do with ghost in the shell? not make it? i believe (and i could be wrong) they're trying to find something to make it more recognizable to audiences to help recoup any losses. it's a complicated situation but i think they went for the best choice with what they had.

 

[Mechazawa]

I understand this argument for other films and cases of whitewashing. But if the race of the character has no significance to defining that character, why does it matter?

The entire point of Ghost in the Shell is that the SHELLs that they inhabit can be any race, any gender as it's a world that blurs the boundaries and completely disintegrates those distinctions. Getting mad that the sleeve being inhabited isn't identifiably Asian in appearance is to ignore the entire point of this property.

Section 9 is a Japanese black ops unit and the villain that they're basing this movie off of is a dude who cropped up in response to a large historical influx of east asian refugees into Japan and the political turmoil that resulted out of that due to Japan's inability to assimilate those refugees into the island.

Like, yes, Ghost in the Shell has strong themes about identity and gender in a post-cyberized world, but come the fuck on. This is a series with a hard east-asian bent and making both leads of this film white for marketability sake and using the prosthetic theme as your out isn't in the spirit of that.

 

[lightskintwin]

Alright, I'm a do a bit of research on these guys:

Taylor Kitsch: was in Friday Night Lights which was sort of popular and critically acclaimed. Snakes on a Plane helped (ok not). For John Carter, remember he was just getting off his Friday Night Light's high similar to how Bryan Cranston or Idris Elba HAVE to be in every movie since The Wire, Breaking Bad, and Luthor. He has fizzled a bit since those days so he's no longer as bankable as we may think.

Sam Worthinton: he had 11 movies before Terminator Salvation which he wasn't the main character. He did put in his due in some recognizable movies to eventually land himself a co-star role against Christian Bale in Salvation. Avatar came out the same year but this isn't a movie led by Sam Worthington but James Cameron. You could have replaced Jake Sully with any random mother fucker and it would make the exact same amount of money. Even Idris Elba.

Armie Hammer: similar career start as Sam Worthing except he had Social Network cred and J Edgar with Leonardio DiCaprio. It doesn't strike me as too odd he would eventually get cast for a big budget movie. The Lone Ranger does seem to lean towards Jack Sparrow, though. Since those days Mr. Hammer doesn't seem to be handed any lead in big budgets, though.

Chris Pine: not sure, maybe he sucks a mean dick because his info is quite odd. I'll give you that.

Hugh Jackman: his breakout role was in an ensemble blockbuster movie that cost $75 million to make. The studio took a very low risk.

They're not virtually unknown (except Chris Pine -- how that fucker do it?!), they got a decent portfolio behind them and the ones who do perform well seem to have continued success. But folks like Taylor Kitsch and Sam Worthington (unless a new Titans movie comes) and Armie Hammer aren't exactly getting big leads in blockbusters nowadays.

ScarJo has a decent portfolio behind her that makes be bankable to a degree (jn their minds).

Like, no one's knocking on Mr. Hammer's door to sign him up to lead in the next unknown franchise movie that costs $200 million.


Like, I'm not saying whitewashing doesn't exist or Hollywood isn't biased against Asians or other minorities due to the perceived lost profits but it's not like 100% of all white leads are handed big budget roles for no raisin, they all were visible at some point. The whiteness part really only seems to matters when comparing two capable candidates but the studio takes the white person. Except Chris Pine.

You've created an argument built on the degree of how unknown they were. LOL The very point is the opportunity to make the jump to a mainstream "bankable" star requires some level of risk and confidence by the studio to cast you as a lead to carry the film. It just so happens that Hollywood's formula is primarily built with White actors as their key equation.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

You've created an argument built on the degree of how unknown they were. LOL The very point is the opportunity to make the jump to a mainstream "bankable" star requires some level of risk and confidence by the studio to cast you as a lead to carry the film. It just so happens that Hollywood's formula is primarily built with White actors as their key equation.

i think you forgot to incorporate what i was quoting....

 

[Htown]

As a fan of ghost in the shell, I'm embarrassed for everyone who thinks Mokoto Kusinagi is Asian.

. . .

Her name is Mokoto Kusinagi.

What do you think she is, Irish?