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[WaterAstro]

Women get the disease too, and they are pumping boatloads of testosterone into their blood. What division should they be in? What about people with XY but androgen insensitivity?

As much as I have read, this disease doesn't turn a woman's body frame into a man's. They won't suddenly stop being bottom heavy and grow 30% more upper body muscles.

In fact, from what I'm reading, this disease is most likely going to take you out of the running for any sport as you're not supposed to further aggravate your hormonal development unless you risk your health.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

what's a male physique?

Dude, come on...

 

[ugaboga232]

As much as I have read, this disease doesn't turn a woman's body frame into a man's. They won't suddenly stop being bottom heavy and grow 30% more upper body muscles.

In fact, from what I'm reading, this disease is most likely going to take you out of the running for any sport as you're not supposed to further aggravate your hormonal development unless you risk your health.

What exactly are you reading? What you are supposed to do is correct the cortisol defect but there may still be increased levels of androgens (testosterone). Biological sex is much more complicated than XX and XY, that was the point I was trying to make. Let people join the division they identify with, god knows they have enough stress as it is.

 

[lord]

But where do black people in the rest of the western world come from? They either come from the Caribbeans (which broke off from Africa in prehistoric times) or from Africa itself.

the black population of the Caribbean traces its origins to the slave trade. It's completely unrelated to the geographical history of the Caribbean plateau. The fact that you think that they live there because of landmass changes is... Weird.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Runners don't have that much muscle mass, it slows them down. She fits the physique of any runner, male or female.

LOL sprinters have tons of muscle mass and do muscle training. You must only be talking about distant runners, because that's not true

 

[Kinyou]

Some of you need to rewatch The Incredibles.

You mean the movie where a boy was the fastest person on earth?

 

[WaterAstro]

What exactly are you reading?

Top Google searches? You're the one who told me to Google. They're reputable medical sites from what I can tell as I have read some of them in the past.

What you are supposed to do is correct the cortisol defect but there may still be increased levels of androgens (testosterone). Biological sex is much more complicated than XX and XY, that was the point I was trying to make. Let people join the division they identify with, god knows they have enough stress as it is.

It doesn't matter how difficult someone's life is. That doesn't give them the reason to cheat.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

You're running against a biological male and seven biological females, and they all beat you.

Also, this particular biological male got beaten in one case by two females, and in another case by four. If they were completely crushing races I could understand the organization who produces the races being like "Okay look, you're breaking our league, we're going to have to figure something else out."

But being pissed that you got fourth, and would have got THIRD if it weren't for that trans person is a) just being an a-hole about losing and b) it's pretty ironic to complain about unfairness to a trans person, when all you did was place out of a medal in a foot race, when they've been dealing with challenges YOU haven't had to worry about their entire lives.

So take fourth and stfu imo.

No need to act like an asshole.

This is one instance. I was a middling collegiate track runner; had I been born transgender, I'd have an Olympic gold medal and the world record by about a second and a half, not to mention way more money than I currently have. And no amount of hard work or dedication would allow any biological female in the world to overcome that advantage.

Have you ever competed in anything? Track trainning is fucking brutal, and I don't think it's fair to completely dismiss the feelings of that person who got beaten, who likely worked there ass of to get there. It's a delicate situation all around

 

[HawksWinStanley]

The default assumption is that she is under HRT.

Fair enough, but this still isn't proof either way.

Again, people have been posting how males ridiculously outperform females in -some- sports, down to olympic level female athletes being well under the high school male level competition.

This is not what we are seeing here; she is competing on the female level, she is not crushing the competition.

None of this is relevant because we don't know if she's competing with her natural abilities or if she's under therapy to suppress many of the factors that would give her an edge over other women.

 

[heliosRAzi]

You mean the movie where a boy was the fastest person on earth?

And a husband was the strongest so he can assert his dominance and male posture and the wife was flexible so she could literally bend over backwards and the daughter could turn invisible, so that she could never been seen and to protect her fragility.

 

[ugaboga232]

Top Google searches? You're the one who told me to Google. They're reputable medical sites from what I can tell as I have read some of them in the past.



It doesn't matter how difficult someone's life is. That doesn't give them the reason to cheat.

Your assessments of CAH are off but my larger point was that XX humans can have androgen levels above XY humans and vice versa, where do we draw the line? There is no rule they are breaking, they identify as female and that is that.

No need to act like an asshole.

This is one instance. I was a middling collegiate track runner; had I been born transgender, I'd have an Olympic gold medal and the world record by about a second and a half, not to mention way more money than I currently have. And no amount of hard work or dedication would allow any biological female in the world to overcome that advantage.

Have you ever competed in anything? Track trainning is fucking brutal, and I don't think it's fair to completely dismiss the feelings of that person who got beaten, who likely worked there ass of to get there. It's a delicate situation all around

You would also have a huge increase in rates of mental illness, suicide, violence, and many other health disparities. You don't get to pick and chose the one or two unintended "benefits" of being trans.

 

[Trojita]

Some of you need to rewatch The Incredibles.

We HolyBaikal now.

 

[Platy]

No need to act like an asshole.

This is one instance. I was a middling collegiate track runner; had I been born transgender, I'd have an Olympic gold medal and the world record by about a second and a half, not to mention way more money than I currently have. And no amount of hard work or dedication would allow any biological female in the world to overcome that advantage.

Have you ever competed in anything? Track trainning is fucking brutal, and I don't think it's fair to completely dismiss the feelings of that person who got beaten, who likely worked there ass of to get there. It's a delicate situation all around

Did you people even READ what you write ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_athletics

You know how many trans women have records in women track and field ? ZERO

 

[Kreed]

I'm not saying every black person is built like that. I'm saying that every black person on average is genetically more physically capable. There is nothing wrong with it and it isn't racism.

No real surprise that the majority of running track events are full of black people and I think most of the world records in the 100m race is taken by black men. They tend to have a higher concentration of fast twitch fibres as well as better bone development and centre of gravity for physical exertion.

Facts? Links? Anything other than your statements riddled with stereotypes directed at an entire ethnic group with people all over the globe that are probably based solely on what you've seen on US television?

 

[Timeaisis]

If this is allowed, then there's no reason to separate male vs female sports anymore.

I hate to say it, but (some) born women would be put at a disadvantage if this is allowed. Not saying that is bad thing necessarily, but that's why they separate men and women's sports to begin with. The unintended consequences here could be that some women who train very hard and are at the top of their game (at a local or even state level) are not given a fair shake when they compete more globally with other women.

It's a tough issue, riding the boundaries of gender issues and sports fairness (which, in my opinion, we elevate to a much too high level to begin with). It definitely flies in the face of the original intent for separating sports by gender. But then again, maybe it's time we move past gender in sports, and this is one of the things that provokes such change? I'm no sports expert, so I cannot say.

 

[Skii]

the black population of the Caribbean traces its origins to the slave trade. It's completely unrelated to the geographical history of the Caribbean plateau. The fact that you think that they live there because of landmass changes is... Weird.

I don't even know why I thought that. Shit. Obviously they couldn't have got there via landmass change.

 

[Staccat0]

The only solution is to get rid of sports. Oh well.

 

[trembli0s]

You're running against a biological male and seven biological females, and they all beat you.

Also, this particular biological male got beaten in one case by two females, and in another case by four. If they were completely crushing races I could understand the organization who produces the races being like "Okay look, you're breaking our league, we're going to have to figure something else out."

But being pissed that you got fourth, and would have got THIRD if it weren't for that trans person is a) just being an a-hole about losing and b) it's pretty ironic to complain about unfairness to a trans person, when all you did was place out of a medal in a foot race, when they've been dealing with challenges YOU haven't had to worry about their entire lives.

So take fourth and stfu imo.

In this case, I believe it's the girl's first year of training for these events. She's equipped, by genetics and nature, to be more physically dominant.

One year in and she's practically at the pinnacle of the high school female population in the state.

 

[KonradLaw]

It isn't. Where do you draw the line? Why is it okay for black people to compete in certain events knowing they have a physical advantage but not transgender people?

I'm just playing devil's advocate but it is a very relevant point. Neither of these people choose to be their race or their gender.

I think this is ignoring cruicial aspect: women aren't really good at sports compared to men. In pretty much any physical sport men will dominate women completely. We separate women sports solely because if they were forced to compete with men there would be almost no women in professional sports.

With men we care about the very peak atheletees can achieve. That's why we don't care if black people have physical advantage in running or whites have in swiming etc. We embrace it because it means pushing that peak higher and higher.

Meanwhile for women we don't care about peaks, as women won't be able to achieve them. It's about creating enviorement where women can still compete and give good entertainment. If you put somebody with enourmous physical advantage there it kind of defeats the purpose of women sports. Any advantage we can accept can't be big enough to make it impossible for others to compete.

In transgender cases it should likely be decided on case to case basis. As long as a athletee isn't dominating completely over others you should allow her to stay in female group. When she starts to dominate you should consider moving her to male groups.

 

[jabuseika]

LOL sprinters have tons of muscle mass and do muscle training. You must only be talking about distant runners, because that's not true

Not at this level, even for sprinters. At olympic/high tier college level, yes.

My point was they don't bulk, they try to stay as lean as possible.

 

[therealist]

I believe in the fairness of athletic competition and I also believe in the equal treatment of transgendered. There is no way to reconcile my two beliefs unless you eliminated the separation between male and female competition.

 

[heliosRAzi]

I don't even know why I thought that. Shit. Obviously they couldn't have got there via landmass change.

I thought you studied biology and evolution at university

 

[Platy]

The only solution is to get rid of sports. Oh well.

Sports was a mistake ... it is nothing but trash

 

[Steve o 3000]

Just have transgender leagues.

 

[WaterAstro]

Your assessments of CAH are off but my larger point was that XX humans can have androgen levels above XY humans and vice versa, where do we draw the line? There is no rule they are breaking, they identify as female and that is that.

My assessment? I literally took words from those websites. So you can take it up with them.

And saying that there's no cheating because there's no rule is about as bullshit of an answer if you're the type that looks for loopholes to gain advantages. Would you allow Usain Bolt to suddenly identify himself as a female, win every single gold medal on the track and field category, and ruin any woman's chance at gold?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Just have transgender leagues.

no

I believe in the fairness of athletic competition and I also believe in the equal treatment of transgendered. There is no way to reconcile my two beliefs unless you eliminated the separation between male and female competition.

Firstly, y'all shouldn't say transgendered, it implies that a person "becomes" transgender instead of simply "is" transgender.

Secondly, the simple reconciliation is to have runners categorized by skill level.

 

[Tekomandor]

Unfortunately, the transgender teen has an unfair advantage so no she shouldn't be in the same race. The solution? Beats me.

ETA- removed probably shouldn't to just shouldn't. It's unfair for everyone else.

Are you going to ban tall people from this, too?

How far a deviation from the norm is allowed until it's unfair?

I'm personally of the belief that unless you want to make all sports allow both genders to compete together you should go for biological sex over gender identity, since that's the reason why you separate in the first place. But then that almost bars trans people from playing sports in a way, so it's not exactly a perfect solution. The whole situation sucks but I'm not sure there's much we can do.

Look forward to trans men winning every female sports competition ever.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

Did you people even READ what you write ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_athletics

You know how many trans women have records in women track and field ? ZERO

Ok? What's your point? That there's no overwhelming advantage being biologically male?

 

[Skii]

I thought you studied biology and evolution at university

One small brain fart should definitely completely devalue my argument. Give me a break.

 

[trembli0s]

I thought you studied biology and evolution at university

If its supported by the research it doesn't refute his point though, might make it stronger, in fact.

 

[ugaboga232]

My assessment? I literally took words from those websites. So you can take it up with them.

And saying that there's no cheating because there's no rule is about as bullshit of an answer if you're the type that looks for loopholes to gain advantages. Would you allow Usain Bolt to suddenly identify himself as a female, win every single gold medal on the track and field category, and ruin any woman's chance at gold?

Usain Bolt does not identify as a female, and identifying as a female is not something most (or really any) people do on a whim.

Why dont you just link the websites then, there is not requirement to not exercise or play sports just because you have CAH.

 

[ElFly]

Fair enough, but this still isn't proof either way.

None of this is relevant because we don't know if she's competing with her natural abilities or if she's under therapy to suppress many of the factors that would give her an edge over other women.

Shouldn't we be assuming innocence first?

Particularly how she is not really blatantly outperforming the rest of the -probably- cis competitors, as other gaffers say it happens if you compare male to female athletic performance. If you didn't know she was trans, her record would not look suspicious at all.

 

[Haribi]

Facts? Links? Anything other than your statements riddled with stereotypes directed at an entire ethnic group with people all over the globe that are probably based solely on what you've seen on US television?

Entine cites credible research, for example, that blacks of West African ancestry (which would include most African-Americans) have a higher ratio of ''fast-twitch'' muscle fiber than whites do, which gives them an edge at leaping and sprinting.

Studies have shown that black athletes with West African ancestry have significantly more "fast-twitch" muscle fibres, which tire easily but contract more quickly than the "slow-twitch" fibres commonly found in long-distance runners.

https://www.nytimes.com/books/00/04/16/reviews/000416.16holtlt.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonenti...tery-and-why-we-should-all-care/#55187ab42263

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/the-science-of-sprinting-8005992.html

 

[Steve o 3000]

no

Why? There are men's and women's leagues. I don't want to see a dickless dude beating up a woman in MMA.

 

[M3d10n]

Not that simple since pubescent males develop more muscle mass than pubescent females.

The hormone treatments don't catabolize all that added muscle. Not to mention bone density.

The only thing I can think of is if puberty was delayed.

It's tricky.

That's true, but the same can be said by athletes who take hormones during their early years. American football is a good example of that: the kids are pumped into enormous sizes during their teens so they have muscle when adults.

 

[ugaboga232]

https://www.nytimes.com/books/00/04/16/reviews/000416.16holtlt.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonenti...tery-and-why-we-should-all-care/#55187ab42263

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/the-science-of-sprinting-8005992.html

To be fair, I'm sure there are actual studies linked but none of those websites have any actual papers on them.

Why? There are men's and women's leagues. I don't want to see a dickless dude beating up a woman in MMA.

Oh my

 

[Tekomandor]

Why? There are men's and women's leagues. I don't want to see a dickless dude beating up a woman in MMA.

Sports leagues don't exist to cater to your transphobia.

 

[jabuseika]

Why? There are men's and women's leagues. I don't want to see a dickless dude beating up a woman in MMA.

I read that in the voice of Joe Rogan.

Whew...

 

[Steve o 3000]

Sports leagues don't exist to cater to your transphobia.

Yawn. I'm more concerned about the domestic violence.

 

[ugaboga232]

Yawn. I'm more concerned about the domestic violence.

Why can't you be concerned about more than one thing at a time? Trans people face massive health disparities that can't really be handwaved away.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

If this is allowed, then there's no reason to separate male vs female sports anymore.

I hate to say it, but (some) born women would be put at a disadvantage if this is allowed. Not saying that is bad thing necessarily, but that's why they separate men and women's sports to begin with. The unintended consequences here could be that some women who train very hard and are at the top of their game (at a local or even state level) are not given a fair shake when they compete more globally with other women.

It's a tough issue, riding the boundaries of gender issues and sports fairness (which, in my opinion, we elevate to a much too high level to begin with). It definitely flies in the face of the original intent for separating sports by gender. But then again, maybe it's time we move past gender in sports, and this is one of the things that provokes such change? I'm no sports expert, so I cannot say.

If we get rid of gender separations in sport, we can kiss female participation goodbye. That's hardly a solution.

 

[Platy]

Ok? What's your point? That there's no overwhelming advantage being biologically male?

That after hormone replacement therapy (which the ridiculous majority of trans people want/need/have) the diferences are praticaly zero. 1 year for trans women or 2 months for trans men. This is so overproved that it is the official olympics guideline

You people are working like "ah I will just say that I am a girl and win all the gold medals" ... it does not work that way. We are walking to be a society that identify and treats trans children as soon as they can, so in a few years there will be no more even the "late treatment problem" ... and if you have problems with the late unchangeable stuff than you probably should make height restrictions in female sports =P

If you were trans at school you would take anti androgens, which means that your muscle mass would dissapear, your metabolism would be slower, your bones would loose density, blood carry less oxigen, skin thinner ....and lots of other stuff that would mean that no, you would NOT win every medal and break every record

 

[-COOLIO-]

Just have transgender leagues.

Not enough transgender people for that to work
And even then, the gulf between a m to f on estrogen for a long period of time and an m to f that isn't is still a gulf.

 

[Steve o 3000]

I read that in the voice of Joe Rogan.

Whew...

Bill Burr, Joe Rogan....it doesn't make it any less true.

 

[Haly]

Figure skating will be safe and that's what I look forward to the most in the winter olympics.

 

[KonradLaw]

Sports leagues don't exist to cater to your transphobia.

Sports leagues do not exist to cater to gender equality or human rights either. If they were there would be no gendered leagues.
They exist solely to allow women to be atheletees. If transgendered girl has performance significantly above those other girls in female league posses then she probably belongs in male league.

 

[Vault Dweller 111]

Are you going to ban tall people from this, too?

How far a deviation from the norm is allowed until it's unfair?



Look forward to trans men winning every female sports competition ever.

This is a simple point, but a good one. I mean I could train my ass off, but I will never look like, or play basketball like LeBron James, just based on our DNA. Is that unfair? Of course not.

This issue is really fucking hard for me. I don't know how to parse it.

 

[Betty]

Don't think this should be allowed, I mean for kids who gives a damn but in races with trophies or sports where strength, height, speed, or whatever other traits that we know differ between sexes due to sexual dimorphism it shouldn't be allowed.

 

[ElFly]

But where do black people in the rest of the western world come from? They either come from the Caribbeans (which broke off from Africa in prehistoric times) or from Africa itself.

Mankind appeared on the face of the earth loooooong after such dramatic tectonic movements...which I am not sure are even right the way you suggest.

 

[WaterAstro]

Usain Bolt does not identify as a female, and identifying as a female is not something most (or really any) people do on a whim.

Why dont you just link the websites then, there is not requirement to not exercise or play sports just because you have CAH.

Are you going to stop Usain Bolt from identifying as a female if he declares that he's been a woman in a man's body? I think you're arguing against yourself with that point.

And you told me to Google, so why don't you do the same. They all talk about avoiding physical stress.