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[Nickolaidas]

Tomb Raider, TLOU, Horizon are just a few examples of games (I know there are more but these stuck to me) I played this gen where you’re made to believe that physically significantly weaker sex can overpower hordes of men like they are joke. I don’t mind having female leads but it does create huge ludonarrative dissonance in my head.

So I’m playing modern Tomb Raider for the first time since it‘s PS Plus monthly game and notion that she can just strangle big muscle men with her bow like it’s nothing is absurd. It doesn’t work. I know people will mention how it’s also not realistic that Nathan Drake can gun down hundreds of people in his games but I think about it this way: if he can win in a single gunfight against 1 man it’s realistic in people’s minds that he can win in multiple ones.
Now, chances of any female winning in a single fight against physically larger and stronger men in real life is very small. Maybe through some trick or cleverness but not likely. Yet you can see what Ellie does or Lara or Alloy or anyone else.

I’m not emphasizing skill with guns because, obviously, females can be almost just as good there (although also not likely) or in cases where your enemies are zombies like in Resident Evil or similar games.

My point is, yes, make games with female leads as much as you like (though vast majority of AAA gamers are male) but put them in realistic scenarios that don’t always necessarily have to include melee violence because it just feels off.

I get what you are saying, I had the same problem as well. Seeing a character who looks like Keira Knightley beat the crap out of a guy who looks like Arnold Schwarzenegger used to look totally ridiculous to me.



But in the end, it's no different than seeing Conan the Barbarian taking out a dragon. It's equally cringeworthy once you put your mind into it. I mean, we're talking about a creature that breathes fire, is as tall as a building and its jaws are capable of tearing down the strongest of metals and its tail can level buildings. And yet a buffed up guy kills it?

I too believe that women are not as strong as men, but I like to think they are more capable than men in other things - for example, I think women are great in multitasking and have a higher tolerance to pain because their bodies are made to withstand the pain of childbirth and are genetically programmed to raise a family and have the ability to divide their attention equally to numerous children at the same time.

If people want to raise awareness that women can be heroes too by having Alloy being the savior of a fictional world, I say, let them do it. It's not like men haven't dominated that particular spotlight for 60 years in pop culture.

The next time you think that Alloy beating up huge dinosaurs is ridiculous, keep in mind it's not any different than James Bond shooting all the henchmen of the bad guy's headquarters without getting hit once.

 

[Fart Knight]

I don't pretend. I have to accept. Except for Samus.

 

[Nickolaidas]

No. You're speaking for all women everywhere, like we're damaged, fragile goods that can't handle seeing a person more attractive than themselves on-screen, and need every fictional female character to be a blob, or a psuedo-man.

Have you stopped to consider that we enjoy playing as awesome looking characters too, particularly those of our own gender?

Just like us guys who look like shit but enjoy playing male characters who look like Greek gods. It's a power fantasy. Totally natural.

 

[Jon Neu]

But in the end, it's no different than seeing Conan the Barbarian taking out a dragon.

Who do you think were the ones hunting mammoths?

Men have always been through history the ones going into "adventures" and facing impossible foes, and in doing so they changed both themselves and their worlds. That's why the hero's journey is inherently a masculine tale, it's literally evolutive genetics.

And that's why 99% of breakthroughs in the history of the human race were made by men.

 

[Lanrutcon]

I’m sorry but females should be feminine and males should be masculine. Guess I’m just bigoted like that

You...have seen other people, right? in person? You realise a lot of men are about as masculine as a tampon, and a lot of women could kick your ass? I think you should leave the basement more.

 

[stn]

This woman could kick the shit out of a lot of guys. There's plenty of women out there that would fare better in combat than a man would. If all things were equal, probably not, but not everything in life is equal. Besides that, it's a video game, not real life. Some suspension of disbelief is required to have a good time.

What's her name? Asking for a friend...

 

[-Arcadia-]

I don't understand why female characters aren't designed a bit more like, well, Link.

In the Zelda games, Link has never been a burly bro, capable of taking on an entire army, or out-matching a giant through sheer strength.

Yet, Zelda games aren't boring, and Link regularly faces off with dragons, walking skyscrapers of bosses, and all manner of things that should be completely unbelievable for a somewhat unremarkable teen to take down. How does this work?

By Link/the player using tactics, strategy, and all kinds of thinking on the fly, which actually leads to greatly rewarding gameplay.

The gameplay is a match for the character, and while often on the absurd end of epic, has an internal David vs. Goliath logic that makes sense.

An honest game developer, not wanting to make an ideological statement, ought to look at this, and consider how someone physically weaker than male opponents, but with the drive to win, would take down any obstacles in her path. And frankly, it should be a lot easier than a 15 year old taking down Shadow of the Colossus-sized bosses.

 

[V2Tommy]

Tomb Raider reboot, and Rise, are 2 of my fave games from recent yers (Sahdow sucks balls though).

Not entirely related but I share the exact same opinion as you about the trilogy.

On topic, Lara in Legend-Anniversary-Underworld is a perfect gymnast/murderer.

 

[GRIEVEZ]

No. You're speaking for all women everywhere, like we're damaged, fragile goods that can't handle seeing a person more attractive than themselves on-screen, and need every fictional female character to be a blob, or a psuedo-man.

Have you stopped to consider that we enjoy playing as awesome looking characters too, particularly those of our own gender?

Pretty sure I all capped some

And I really wasnt aware, people like to play awesome looking characters. Who knew.

Sigh... My ""problem"" isnt with awesome looking characters - its with games need to have "hot" women as main protagonist. Not saying it should be banned or w.e.

And how exactly am I speaking for all women anyway? I didnt go out and poll to ask women how they felt bout this. This has come up naturally in conversation more than once with friends/family. Im just relaying.

For the record, I dont think women are "brittle". To bad you view my msg that way.

 

[GRIEVEZ]

And that's why 99% of breakthroughs in the history of the human race were made by men.

And you dont think its due, unequal opportunity?

 

[Yoboman]

I would gamble my chances in surviving a fight with Brock Lesnar over a woman with a knife

 

[bargeparty]

Hey look another thread to add to my ignore list.

 

[carlosrox]

I mean, let's be honest here.

Compare male and female UFC fighters and you have your answer.




I see what OP is saying, I think he has a point.

For example I find Joel doing what he does more believable than Abby doing what she does. I can still suspend my disbelief for both just the same.

However, I think a Joel existing to be a lot more likely and believable than an Abby existing.


I have no problem with female characters. I really enjoy Ellie and even Abby for example.

 

[Rean no Kiseki]

Tomb Raider, TLOU, Horizon are just a few examples of games (I know there are more but these stuck to me) I played this gen where you’re made to believe that physically significantly weaker sex can overpower hordes of men like they are joke. I don’t mind having female leads but it does create huge ludonarrative dissonance in my head.

So I’m playing modern Tomb Raider for the first time since it‘s PS Plus monthly game and notion that she can just strangle big muscle men with her bow like it’s nothing is absurd. It doesn’t work. I know people will mention how it’s also not realistic that Nathan Drake can gun down hundreds of people in his games but I think about it this way: if he can win in a single gunfight against 1 man it’s realistic in people’s minds that he can win in multiple ones.
Now, chances of any female winning in a single fight against physically larger and stronger men in real life is very small. Maybe through some trick or cleverness but not likely. Yet you can see what Ellie does or Lara or Alloy or anyone else.

I’m not emphasizing skill with guns because, obviously, females can be almost just as good there (although also not likely) or in cases where your enemies are zombies like in Resident Evil or similar games.

My point is, yes, make games with female leads as much as you like (though vast majority of AAA gamers are male) but put them in realistic scenarios that don’t always necessarily have to include melee violence because it just feels off.

 

[Jon Neu]

And you dont think its due, unequal opportunity?

Why?

 

[Soleil rouge]

Someone trained in combat and in condition will wipe the floor with 99% of the untrained population regardless of their gender or size. Embrace your weakness.

Also...you're playing a GAME not a life simulator FFS

People who say this kind of thing don't understand just how different men and women are. There's a reason why high school boys teams mop the floor with professional women's teams, and the deadlift women's record holder is actually a man who identified as a woman just to prove a point.

 

[KyoZz]

Don't mind me

Spoiler: I'm just here to eat my popcorn

 

[-Arcadia-]

Pretty sure I all capped some

Apologies.

Sigh... My ""problem"" isnt with awesome looking characters - its with games need to have "hot" women as main protagonist. Not saying it should be banned or w.e.

I'm saying that 'hot' women aren't a bad thing, and many enjoy playing as them. Not so much the 2000s Bro Culture insanity of virtual women that shouldn't even be able to stand up, which comes off silly, but just attractive, yes, awesome looking characters.

It's also infinitely preferable to the Abbies and Assassin's Creed female vikings that seem to be making their way into gaming these days.

 

[Rhazer Fusion]

I do not mind that most games aren’t realistic honestly and the entire female protagonist doing unrealistic things doesn’t bother me either. For me, it’s all fantasy and fun. Men are scientifically and biologically stronger, but most male protagonists do very unrealistic things as well. Regenerate health when hit with rocket launcher? If I wanted realism, I wouldn’t be playing video games. I prefer escapism because realism and even practicality is boring to me.

Gamers are very hard to satisfy though. When we get a huge, strong looking female like Abby in TLOU2 or Nadine from Uncharted, that AC:Valhalla buff woman, a Chun Li in SF, a more toned Tekken Tag 2 Nina Williams, give Tina from DOA3 abs or give Lara more toned arms, many people complain and say they either look too “masculine” or any muscles on women are Uber gross. Like it or not, these type of women are “normally” more likely to topple your average man or do uncommon things much easier than a typical 120lb, 5’4 woman.

When they have a more normal depiction of a female with no muscles and a smaller frame, then I hear that’s not realistic because they are too skinny, weak or small to take out anyone. Most developers probably rather hear unrealistic instead of gross, so they generally chose smaller, more regular looking women over the stronger looking ones who could probably perform more realistic feats of strength.

 

[GRIEVEZ]

Why?

Sigh nvm. Carry on.

 

[Pallas]

This seems so much like a non-issue, it’s a video game. Not everything is going to walk the stereotypical line of reality.

 

[AltogetherAndrews]

Ignoring the fact that we are talking about games here for a minute, I’ve trained combatives with plenty of women who would be plenty capable of taking down your average dude.

 

[GRIEVEZ]

Apologies.



I'm saying that 'hot' women aren't a bad thing, and many enjoy playing as them. Not so much the 2000s Bro Culture insanity of virtual women that shouldn't even be able to stand up, which comes off silly, but just attractive, yes, awesome looking characters.

It's also infinitely preferable to the Abbies and Assassin's Creed female vikings that seem to be making their way into gaming these days.

No problem.

Its good to have different opinions. I just think its a lot harder, to make a character appealing/memorable - when shes not attractive. So if its done well, I think its job well done.

Yuna (FFX) and Aloy (HZD) come to mind, they are pretty average looking. But I think the character designs are memorable imo.

 

[captainraincoat]

For most of the population I would agree...female fighting males would be very ugly but there are some examples of women who would beat the shit out of a guy but those examples are few and far between.

trans vs male on the otherhand would be pretty interesting as no amount of blockers/surgery can remove all traits of a male body...really comes down to the body before the treatment

if the body was slender and feminine before the transition would bring a person more inline with a female fighter

if the body had broad shoulders and a thick physique no amount of medical intervention is going to be able to remove these traits which would give that person a mass and muscle advantage vs a female fighter

The below is a trans afl player who competes in the women’s afl league

notice anything?
As a female no amount of training is going to get them to a base like that

game depictions will continue to be unrealistic and feed into this ignorance....sometimes that’s a good thing

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

I think that you are entitled to your opinion.

But I disagree with you. Games bend reality in so, so many ways this is straight up a non issue. Unless you're making a super-realistic game and selling the game on the back of this realistic experience, like Battlefield 5 did.

 

[KURDISTAN YPG]

female lead
male lead
alien lead

who gives fuck, wtf is wrong with this generation? do people think about this type of shit, @ op tbh most dont give flying fuck.

 

[BRZBlue]

I don't think its... a big deal.

Not to mention this is all I can think of reading the title...

 

[Megatron]

Games are fantasy. I really don’t mind injecting fantasy into them. Also the characters in the OP: Ellie and Lara do most of their killing with guns or stealth from behind. I see no reason to think women would t be effective in those situations.

 

[and 3 others]

And you dont think its due, unequal opportunity?

No. Men are vastly more interested in things, and women are vastly more interested in people. Follow that logic for 300,000 years and see how that effects brain function.

 

[Tschumi]

Why do you care? This is such a non issue, why don't you get bothered by the funky smell in the seat of your pants, or the fifth eclair you just ate, instead of a character with wider hips than waist navigating a storyline?

Man people are brash with gnarly opinions these days... Saying edgy, sexist crap has somehow been converted into the latest way to be a rebel... I believe i remember a time when the rebels were the ones who were unusually friendly to strangers~

being so bothered by women being heroes that you create a big, fat,fed-up thread title and tell us you think women are born to be physically dominated by us lions and and deviation is not to be tolerated is gnarly, and substandard, man! Shape up!

 

[Shai-Tan]

Who do you think were the ones hunting mammoths?

Men have always been through history the ones going into "adventures" and facing impossible foes, and in doing so they changed both themselves and their worlds. That's why the hero's journey is inherently a masculine tale, it's literally evolutive genetics.

And that's why 99% of breakthroughs in the history of the human race were made by men.

guys I’m a liberal I promise. it only seems like I’m a massive misogynist because truth and logic. The Subjection of Women is clearly superseded by half baked paleoanthropology and evolutionary psychology I learned online

edit:

No. Men are vastly more interested in things, and women are vastly more interested in people. Follow that logic for 300,000 years and see how that effects brain function.

and psychometrics

 

[and 3 others]

Nvmd

 

[Tschumi]

Nvmd

Alright then. Nevermind then.

 

[and 3 others]

Alright then. Nevermind then.

It quoted too many people and it would have taken too long to adequately change/erase even after I tried editing it. Duplicate posts. So I deleted.

 

[Balducci30]

Huh? Do women in fighting games bother you?

 

[alstrike]

"Stealth" misogynistic thread?

What a tantrum by the OP, absolutely toddler level.

 

[Balducci30]

Who do you think were the ones hunting mammoths?

lol this thread is ridiculous

 

[Astral Dog]

Males would be just as useless against those giant machines in hzd

Plus many male main characters are thin, lanky or kids, zero muscles they probably don't go to the gym how i am suppose to believe they can save the world?

 

[Azurro]

No problem.

Its good to have different opinions. I just think its a lot harder, to make a character appealing/memorable - when shes not attractive. So if its done well, I think its job well done.

Yuna (FFX) and Aloy (HZD) come to mind, they are pretty average looking. But I think the character designs are memorable imo.

Alloy is modelled after a really beautiful woman, and Yuna is also incredibly beautiful based on the CG renders of her design. Honestly, you seem to have a problem with attractive people, that if unattractive people see them they'll feel bad about themselves somehow. Games by their nature are in many cases power fantasies and people want to kick ass with a cool looking person.

If somehow seeing an attractive person is a problem for somebody, then honestly, what are they going to do? Crawl in a ball and a cry every time they see someone attractive? Will they demand attractive people to be banned or euthanized? If somehow that's a problem, then they need to look at themselves, fix their self esteem and realise that a) people like attractive people and they need to learn to deal with reality and b) that attractiveness is just superficial and the most important things in the world are your actual qualities that have nothing to do with looks.

Why are the new generations so mentally weak that everything triggers them?

 

[Kdad]

Le sigh.

 

[Azurro]

Huh? Do women in fighting games bother you?

Fighting games are presented in a fantasy, highly exaggerated setting , so no, I don't see why anyone would get annoyed by that.

 

[Lort]

When are we going to stop pretending...

If you want to be solider go become one .. dont pretend clicking on your mouse makes you tough or masculine.

 

[TLZ]

How does Ratchet, a feline, have a gun though?

It's a game dude. Who cares.

 

[KiNeMz]

1997. 130 pound woman kills at least 50 men with ease.

TLOU2 comes out and its suddenly a problem. Lol.

She killed TRex with Pew Pew doing somersaults.

 

[Joe T.]

My point is, yes, make games with female leads as much as you like (though vast majority of AAA gamers are male) but put them in realistic scenarios that don’t always necessarily have to include melee violence because it just feels off.

That's the key point for me. The best way to empower and grow the appeal of women in games, in my view anyway, is to focus on what differentiates them from boys/men then play up those strengths rather than simply turning them into female versions of male characters. I'm not strictly talking about physical appearances either because I know that's where a lot of minds will go.

A lot of time/effort in the last couple of decades has been spent on "closing the gender gap" and that's fine, even necessary in some cases, but not so much in the art/entertainment space where you're aiming to distinguish yourself/your product from everyone else.

Play up agility instead of brute strength/muscle mass, behavioral differences like emotional responses, impulsiveness, aggression, etc. Create characters where the audience can say "Okay, yeah, that's a kickass character" that helps explain why a man might not handle the same situation(s) quite as well. Show me why women are awesome by focusing on what they can do better, not by making them men (because that becomes a whole other topic).

And no, I'm not talking about creating a child raising simulator either.

Goes without saying that there's nothing wrong with the choices developers have made about their characters up until now - they are ultimately "just video games" - but there's still a lot of room for improvement for those willing to go that route.

 

[Paracelsus]

Every time someone makes the same stupid ass non-arguments thinking they are clever and they are proving a point.
Every time all it takes is this to shut them down.

It's the requirement of videogame mechanics, you have to advance and kill enemies.

But do you believe it's more realistic to have a super athletic and strong dude doing it, or a toddler?

It's the same principle.

Resident Evil has zombies and mutants. Chris does more damage with weapons, takes way more damage and runs faster.
Jill defeated Nemesis, she still couldn't push the heavy bell in the clock tower.

The problem is not having both man and woman but how you want them.
In TLOU2 you have a woman that plays like a rogue, which makes perfect sense, and a woman that is built, looks and plays like Conan the Barbarian. That's jarring.

Look at the end to TLOU2.
If they knew gameplay is the excuse to everything, they would've let Abby retain her NFL body to fight Ellie, because gameplay is fantasy so there was no reason to shrink her. Ellie can just punch the hell out of Abby like Nadine did to Drake.

The main reason shrunk Abby because Ellie overpowering Abby as big as she was would look like absolute ****. That's how you know Abby's design was bad.
They also made it to make her look pitiable, but that's only part of the story.

tl;dr Conan defeating a dragon is more realistic than Nadine kicking Nathan out the window, and it doesn't matter how hard you repeat otherwise.

 

[KiNeMz]

it can happen. There was obviously no striking in this fight, but that snap down and back take was wicked. The rear naked was synched tight. that guy was not escaping that. They guy probably didnt have much grappling experience and was possibly going easy. But it escalated quick.

I've been training BJJ for 7 years. There are some female weapons out there.

But i couldn't care less if some pixels on a screen do not realistic things. I'm sitting on my couch pressing buttons to move some pixels around on my screen into the right position. If they want to make Lara Croft as a baby knock out Mike Tyson go for it.

 

[CitizenX]

it can happen. There was obviously no striking in this fight, but that snap down and back take was wicked. The rear naked was synched tight. that guy was not escaping that. They guy probably didnt have much grappling experience and was possibly going easy. But it escalated quick.

I've been training BJJ for 7 years. There are some female weapons out there.

But i couldn't care less if some pixels on a screen do not realistic things. I'm sitting on my couch pressing buttons to move some pixels around on my screen into the right position. If they want to make Lara Croft as a baby knock out Mike Tyson go for it.

Thats not a good video, he could have easily done some bad things from the start and then he picked her up and sat her down soft.

 

[KiNeMz]

For most of the population I would agree...female fighting males would be very ugly but there are some examples of women who would beat the shit out of a guy but those examples are few and far between.

trans vs male on the otherhand would be pretty interesting as no amount of blockers/surgery can remove all traits of a male body...really comes down to the body before the treatment

if the body was slender and feminine before the transition would bring a person more inline with a female fighter

if the body had broad shoulders and a thick physique no amount of medical intervention is going to be able to remove these traits which would give that person a mass and muscle advantage vs a female fighter

The below is a trans afl player who competes in the women’s afl league

notice anything?
As a female no amount of training is going to get them to a base like that

game depictions will continue to be unrealistic and feed into this ignorance....sometimes that’s a good thing

Yea this situation is crazy. Obviously very unfair and dangerous for all women on that field.

A fellow Melbournite I presume?

 

[Jon Neu]

You’re not a leftist, you’re a misogynist!! Leave virtual women alone!!1!

So you’re saying that the hero’s journey is the same as literally defeating a real dragon, and therefore that slaying a dragon is more realistic than a woman kicking someone!

The big brain white knighting is getting better by the minute.