Mauricio_Magus
Banned
no, they are pure beings
they masturbate to how much money you have
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Women And Sexuality In Gaming (Kotaku/Dragon's Crown Thoughts And More)
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
- Start date
no, they are pure beings
Nemesis_
Member
Yes *_* I'd never be so charmed by such a hideous fashion item being given to me.
Claire's power.
I find it hard for people to care so much about the way women are projected in video games and then turn around to fapping at women being treated as sexual object.
Well it is causing controversy within Japan.
Again, feminists in Japan (or outside of the US) are more likely to argue about stuff that's not portrayed in Manga & Games.
I think her visual idenity and design very simply and effectively contrast the Master Chief's. Thats the way I've always seen it.
I laughed at a racist joke that Dave Chappelle made, does that invalidate me wanting more than just 30 year old white male as my video game selection
How do you feel about women in the real world, Broach?
Oh. That's how you feel.
More seriously, citing Japan as any kind of example to follow when it comes to treatment of women is not going to go down well in the West - or, indeed, with many Japanese women.
Objectification happens on both sides of the gender equation in games - more prevalently, perhaps, in Japan of all places, where BL games co-exist with the more obvious bishoujo titles. This is no defense of the premise of this thread, but there are no answers to the problems of objectifying anyone in any way, real life or fictional, other than not doing it.
Dark Octave
Banned
Cortana has always been naked. The only difference between her in previous Halos and Halo 4 is the tech is better and the artists are better in Halo 4. The game is in no way shape or form doing a disservice to women any more than any other Halo before it. She looks more realistic, therefore you can see more, but it has always been there all the same.Look at the evolution of a character like Cortana.
To me, this is the pinnacle of bullshit in gaming. Yes, women have breasts, but no way does this make sense in the context. This, to me, is an example of what's wrong with the way women are portrayed in games as much as Dragon's Crown.
It's like Pamela Anderson popping up in your Word 2000 asking if you meant to indent that paragraph instead of that fucking paperclip.
Also, I just came back from a renaissance fair where 70% of every woman there was spilling out of her corset. Knowingly and on purpose exposing heavy cleavage in front of sons, daughters and the world. Now you mean to tell me that these women should have a problem with characters having big breasts in DoA and Soul Calibur?
The reality is that a lot of real women in the world are sexualized in real life and enjoy being sexualized. Being and feeling sexy is a big part of a lot of females lives. To complain, bitch about and try and deny them that in a character is one sided and wrong imo. Of course you should always have a balance and I feel there is a great balance of sexualized and non-sexualized female characters in games.
What are we bitching about? What are we trying to achieve? The total eradication of sexualized characters in all games? You know what's a travesty and something we should be bitching about in games?
Women should express their disapproval and start a discussion (as it's happening here). Birth of a Nation was a film created by artists and no one had a problem with it when it was released and for a great many years afterwards. Eventually through discourse our society decided that films like that weren't really in anyone's best interest. You can still make them today, it's completely within your first amendment right (speaking USA specifically here), but I wouldn't expect people to go see it in theaters.
Gaming is the same way, they should make the games they want, but they have to recognize that if the games are objectifying women people are going to speak out against it. That's the way of things and yes, eventually it will all sort itself out.
Someone should Kickstart Magic Mike the video game.
This debate will continue on a loop endlessly until people recognize that the existence of exceptions do very little to disprove the rule: Yes, it's fine to sexualize women in videogames; this isn't a debate about censoring adult/"adult" content in videogames. It is the degree and frequency to which this occurs that is sparking the debate, much like how debate exists over the highly sexual portrayal of women in the media despite the fact that less sexual portrayals also exist. Body image counts.
Who is going to let them, those games do not sell, apparently. Along with that, what about women who enjoy video games but who's profession lie else where , do they not deserve better.
Who is making the people with the money even listen to them, especially in japan. We haven't even gotten to that shit yet.
AlimNassor
Banned
Sexism would be making it so the woman in a serious story is half naked with giant tits hanging out and it's not played for laughs, and we're supposed to be taking her serious or shes half naked in a situation where there is no reason for her to be like that.
Another sexist thing, would be focusing on her tits or ass and giving her a skin tight bodysuit with her ass exposed and breasts exposed.
Another sexist thing, would be focusing on her tits or ass and giving her a skin tight bodysuit with her ass exposed and breasts exposed.
I'm not trying to be mean, but I really don't understand what you're saying.
Hey stalker, lol. What's up with this forum knowing everbody's posts.
About Japan tough, I was saying that because someone else mentioned it.
Yes, in a videogame forum, threads about videogame characters will be often, especially when there is a broader discussion about the subject happening on popular sites.
Hey, you know, I decided to become a PC-only kind of guy, so I will go into every thread about the PS4 or NextBox and go "URGH, not this AGAIN, c'mon guys! Do we REALLY need to be talking about consoles? We need more PC threads!"
It's becoming a silly way to say the discussion is worthless, at least be honest and say "I think this discussion is worthless and here's why". Complaining about the existence of any thread is silly. Don't think it is worth your time, then spend your time in another discussion.
If you think the discussion is heading a wrong direction, then tell us why, but please, stop that nonsense of "urgh, ANOTHER thread". Yes, another thread, why did you click? Didn't you read the title?
And by the way, here's a popular feminist website:
http://jezebel.com/
Really, it's from the same Gawker Media as Kotaku and there's barely any talk about videogame (if at all).
Feminists aren't dedicating their lives to destroy videogame, most of them don't care. It just happens that, oh no, some feminists also do happen to like videogames and so they apply the criticisms they apply everywhere else to videogames, too.
But feminism is still mostly about not-videogames, so I don't know what is up with this "feminists should not be focusing on this". They aren't, mostly.
Hey, you know, I decided to become a PC-only kind of guy, so I will go into every thread about the PS4 or NextBox and go "URGH, not this AGAIN, c'mon guys! Do we REALLY need to be talking about consoles? We need more PC threads!"
It's becoming a silly way to say the discussion is worthless, at least be honest and say "I think this discussion is worthless and here's why". Complaining about the existence of any thread is silly. Don't think it is worth your time, then spend your time in another discussion.
If you think the discussion is heading a wrong direction, then tell us why, but please, stop that nonsense of "urgh, ANOTHER thread". Yes, another thread, why did you click? Didn't you read the title?
And by the way, here's a popular feminist website:
http://jezebel.com/
Really, it's from the same Gawker Media as Kotaku and there's barely any talk about videogame (if at all).
Feminists aren't dedicating their lives to destroy videogame, most of them don't care. It just happens that, oh no, some feminists also do happen to like videogames and so they apply the criticisms they apply everywhere else to videogames, too.
But feminism is still mostly about not-videogames, so I don't know what is up with this "feminists should not be focusing on this". They aren't, mostly.
10101
Gold Member
I agree with this. Completely anecdotal, but most women I know are drooling over film stars or TV hunks and couldn't give a shit about whether blokes do the same. It's just another excuse for people who like to be outraged to get outraged about something. If you don't like it, don't buy / watch it...simple.
You said women should make their own games, that is fine, but who is going to let them. 30 year old white male seems to be the thing that sells games. Women should just make all indies? No, there needs to be a forced discussion about this, because the people with the money aren't listening.
Then there is japan, and that's a whole other boss battle.
No, are you willfully ignorant or do you just not understand. The issue is not that these people are sexy, the issue is is that that's all they are , and that is all the choice they have.
That's what I said, I don't think they should make their own games - I mean, they're welcome to, but I'm just saying they should discuss the games that are being made now and let people know about how it affects them.
Chet Rippo
Member
I don't see why, women are occasionally 'used as sexual objects' namely when they are having sex. Men are the same way. The point of all this is, why in so many games when no one is having sex with the women, are they being portrayed as some kind of hypersexualized eye candy?
Not really the same situation. It's more like those in the closet gay senators who spend a lot of time bashing gays. I just can't see how people can talk about how sexualization of women in these game and be alright with craving that same sexualization of women through porn.
Men are sexualized through media as well but it seems like people only care when it's women. Women drool over sexualized men in the media just as much as men do towards women.
That is fine, I believe more needs to be done, and not just for women , but for every other non white male group in the game industry.
And then eventually we have to get to japan, and that ... oh god the carnage of that culture war.
America having to admit it might be a wee bit sexually repressed and violence happy, Japan having to admit that it might be a wee bit racist
I do not think you understand the issue, the isn't sexuality, the issue is that's seems to be the only option for a female character, no personality , just sexy.
Baller. PhD
Banned
Because the target audience likes it, and in many cases that's what compels them to buy it. See the replies in the DOA5 |OT| for proof.
There's sexually repressed (teaching abstinence in school, trying to deny access to birth control, etc.), and then there's adopting fictional media that frequently portrays the female body in peak physical form and partially to fully revealed at times and contexts that don't make sense.
Like I said, the exact same thing is happening with men, stop saying it's just women. If we want to have a discussion of how women are shown in media then we not leave out how men are portrayed. The two are linked.
Except most of the time that is not the case. Whether the characters or well written is a different matter.
DOA and Dragon's Crown might be examples of games that are on the fringe, maybe people buy those games just for sex appeal. It happens. My point is that large market games that are meant to appeal to a broad audience of people, both male and female, could come up with more interesting ways of portraying their female characters than just sex objects.
I don't think your free market argument you keep throwing out there makes it any better, there are times when there are other considerations to make and there are also times where a game could adapt a different method for presenting its female characters without sacrificing any sales. Hell, they might even convince a woman or two to buy it.
I haven't played some of the games mentioned in the article (Bioshock Infinite or RE5 for instance), but a lot of what they seem to define as 'good female characters' are only 'good' examples because they kick ass. If the only requirement to be considered a 'good' character is that the character kick ass, that doesn't make them particularly fleshed out or interesting, regardless of their gender. I would hope we ask more of any characters, let alone females than "they kick ass", lest it be a first person game where the character is meant to be filled in by the player (ala Gordon Freeman)
10101
Gold Member
It's not the only choice they have there are plenty of games that do not sexualise women, just as there are plenty of films and TV shows that do not.
Or they could just choose to ignore it? There are plenty of other choices, you make it sound like every game is a soft porn movie.
I never said it was just women. This thread is called "Women and Sexuality in Gaming". I also feel like the case for women is much more serious than the one that men face. A lot of the male characters in games aren't really sexualized, they're extensions of the male fantasy. You want to be the guy, he's not being presented as a sexual object.
michaelius
Banned
That's because they are smart and realise that same manga/games/anime/movies/books don't need to adres both audiences and it's ok to have whole genres oriented to certain demographic.
SaggyMonkey
Member
One problem is that there's no winning with some groups. Their role is to be professionally offended by things. You include an attractive woman, she's "too sexualized." You include a strong woman, then she's "too similar to a man." You include a homely woman and then "woman can't be beautiful too?"
Media filtering is ultimately a futile exercise, as most agree that censorship of artists' visions isn't the correct answer. Also most of these discussions leave out games that ARE more targeted to women. Surprise, they DON'T have as many sexualized images. Take a scroll through this more casual publisher's games: http://www.g5e.com/
There are certainly some overzealous feminist bloggers out there, but you're putting a lot of words into other peoples' mouths here. It's not just 'some groups', it's all groups. They're comprised of many different people with different opinions. They're not all going to be sensitive to the same things.
What kind of units does g5e.com push compared to any of the games that have been featured in any of the recent articles about 'women in gaming'? Obviously things with a larger impact will get more attention. We also forget sometimes we're in a relatively small pocket of gamers, let alone the general population.
From my experience they masturbate to the objectification of women too.
Baller. PhD
Banned
Perhaps, but why risk it? The point I'm trying to make is that game companies are businesses and businesses need to make money. Sex sells, especially to men (though I hear that Magic Mike did pretty well for itself). I don't want to escape into a fantasy world and look at ugly people. I can do that here in the real world by going to Walmart. Whether that is right or wrong is irrelevant -- that's how humans are wired. The vast majority of "core" gamers are men, so the female characters tend to cater to what men like.
There are probably more female NBA fans than female "core" gamers, yet every NBA team still has a dancing squad with nearly-naked women shaking their asses.
SaggyMonkey
Member
Those aren't specific examples, obviously. Was just making a case that some people seem to be able to create "uproar" over anything they want. My point is that creating products to please those kinds of personalities is often a losing battle.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
Still amazed at the treatment of 'idols' and the insane rules and regulations for their behavior. Otaku are damn scary when it comes to their 'waifus' wither 2s or 3d.
So our new rubric for standards in video game publishing is "Would you beat off to this?"
Look at the evolution of a character like Cortana.
To me, this is the pinnacle of bullshit in gaming. Yes, women have breasts, but no way does this make sense in the context. This, to me, is an example of what's wrong with the way women are portrayed in games as much as Dragon's Crown.
It's like Pamela Anderson popping up in your Word 2000 asking if you meant to indent that paragraph instead of that fucking paperclip.
Is there a reason why she shouldn't be naked. Why is being naked a bad thing? Her character is not just there for sex and has a part in the story. This trying to find problems in things that are not there
That might be true, but do you honestly not see how there could be objections over how women are portrayed in games? You don't even need to pick a specific game, just take a random sampling of games and look at the women in them.
Someone should tell Kishimoto that.
How often are you or people you know naked when you aren't either A.) having sex or B.) washing yourself?
Zen_Arcade
Banned
To be fair, being naked is illegal in most places.
Mr_Antimatter
Member
No, that one is actually pretty valid. There was no need to up her sex appeal in every game, except for fanservice and titillation. shes the only major female character int he series, so she is their only real sexual selling point.
She could have just as easily stuck with her design in Halo 1, but that doesn't move posters/merchandise like curvy, next to nude Cortana does.