Lotus from 999 is a good example of this stripification phenomenon
http://i.imgur.com/TyXfwdO.jpg
Go on, guess which design they went with. It's particularly absurd given everything you eventually end up learning about her.
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Women And Sexuality In Gaming (Kotaku/Dragon's Crown Thoughts And More)
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
- Start date
Lotus from 999 is a good example of this stripification phenomenon
http://i.imgur.com/TyXfwdO.jpg
Go on, guess which design they went with. It's particularly absurd given everything you eventually end up learning about her.
That's a real thorough analysis you've based your assumption on
Let me just say that when this character first came out, I had a hard time taking the game seriously anymore and kind of lost interest.
It's interesting that the concerns of many women are invisible to you. That's male privilege.
She's a (minor character details)
40 year old, mother of two super hacker who was kidnapped during her night out
No, it's not. There's a clear difference between crusading for laws to be made and censorship to happen by people who don't play games and are kneejerking against some unrelated violent incident, and vocal criticism of something and calling for change and more variety/more thought put into creative decisions, by people who play games and are getting tired of the usual. If you have a problem with that, then I can only guess you've never expressed an opinion on this forum about any game, ever.
SolidSnakex
Member
Here's my favorite official art for her
I wish they'd hurry up and release the full piece of art for that instead of just limiting it to the character trailers. I was first shown in Famitsu when the game was unveiled again, but they never put a hi-res shot of it online.
To be fair, the effects of violent interactive media should be taken more seriously too.
(and this isn't a way of saying "it's bad" but more "there should be more extensive research done")
spandexmonkey
Banned
Do you think characters like the sorceress should be changed?
Perhaps to something like the elf?
Steve Youngblood
Member
I don't know if I would argue that that conversation is stupid either. I mean, it's stupid if you are not allowing for any nuance in the conversation. "I knew that guy who shot up that school; it's probably all that Doom he played!" is a stupid observation. But the notion that inundating children (or even adults for that matter) with a plethora of violent imagery may have some negative, if subtle, implications is not some insultingly stupid suggestion in my mind. I don't like video games being used as a scapegoat anytime some loner goes on a killing spree any more than the next video game fan, but I don't get up in arms anytime a study gets commissioned exploring a link between violent entertainment content and violent behavior.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Here's my favorite official art for her
I wish they'd hurry up and release the full piece of art for that instead of just limiting it to the character trailers. I was first shown in Famitsu when the game was unveiled again, but they never put a hi-res shot of it online.
my god the Elf is beautiful, I need this game and an artbook
-COOLIO-
The Everyman
the point of lotus though is how she defies her stereotypes. thats one of themes of the game, all the characters act different from the stereotypes suggested by their looks. lotus is a computer scientist.
Delusibeta
Banned
I think that this is a problem that will be largely solved by the ongoing death of AAA games, outside of B-class Japanese games. Of course, that'll probably also result in a vast reduction in identifiably female player characters (and probably a decrease in identifiably male characters too. Hopefully there will be also an increase in cute robots, because humanity is overrated).
A demonstration of a dwarf wearing a helmet, a cape and a short skirt.
I know right? No attention to the awesome male characters.
A demonstration of a dwarf wearing a helmet, a cape and a short skirt.
It is kind eerie how both arguments mirrors each other, really. Lots of "strong media shaping the real world in unfathomable ways" type of pseudo-sociology, hypodermic needle apologists in both debates, but one backed mostly by right wing nuts (somebody think of the children) and another one by lefties (somebody think of the female dignity).
Stop trying to win the sympathy of members of the opposite sex by appealing to their sexual drive or physical attraction, don't be sexy, it makes me feel bad that I am not, slutty behaviour shouldn't be rewarded by society, people who have a stronger sexual drive are beneath me, sexuality is an instrinsecally shameful and degrading thing, the human is a a social animal only and thus every single of its expressions should be subjected to public scrutiny and shaming.
Puritanism, plain and simply, but with a pretty coat of post modernism since religious morality is oh so passe, albeit it all boils down to envy, insecurity, and a big obession with societal control because obviously you are not responsable of your own personal self steem or dignity.
im guessing theres a whole liefeld section?
Riposte
Member
999's character design was so distracting to the game's atmosphere, a blemish on an otherwise interesting setting. (Lotus isn't even the worst one. Some of those designs would be beyond understanding in any context.) It seems like you'd go far with the policy "keep your artists in check so it matches the game you are going for". It would certainly do wonders with the chainmail bikini situation, in some games anyway. I think a lot of the the ridiculous off-putting designs might be artists going overboard with their own self-expression or something (arguably with no ill intent). At least I have to think that's the case with Ashe in FFXII.
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
SolidSnakex
Member
The problem is that other people have focused way too much on the Sorceress and haven't bothered to pay attention to any of the other female characters. Which is a shame since it is pretty diverse in terms of its representation.
Mushroomer25
Member
Lotus' outfit (as well as Clover's in VLR), as stupidly absurd as it is - do give that franchise some of it's bizzare charm though. In a game where characters regularly dress up as Circus ringleaders, have giant hats to store snacks in, and the villian is a pun-obsessed rabbit - it does fit the scene.
However, when you start to read into the developer's reasoning for the costuming, it is a bit gross. As are the multiple bad sex jokes (That fucking elevator scene...). They're distracting & aren't clever enough to feel justified.
However, when you start to read into the developer's reasoning for the costuming, it is a bit gross. As are the multiple bad sex jokes (That fucking elevator scene...). They're distracting & aren't clever enough to feel justified.
Lots of people seem to be missing the point here.
IMHO, there is no problem with objectification. Objectification is what we do naturally to our own bodies (gym, dressing up for an interview) and to other people. It's natural.
The problem is that media create culture. And when we have some consistent imagery of a female (underpowered, fantasy object) which corresponds to observable relations of domination, discrimination etc in REAL society - then we have a problem of unfair power structure reinforced in our favourite medium.
IMHO, there is no problem with objectification. Objectification is what we do naturally to our own bodies (gym, dressing up for an interview) and to other people. It's natural.
The problem is that media create culture. And when we have some consistent imagery of a female (underpowered, fantasy object) which corresponds to observable relations of domination, discrimination etc in REAL society - then we have a problem of unfair power structure reinforced in our favourite medium.
Devolution
Member
God damnit, Dragon's Crown is such a piece of shit example. Fuck Kotaku, fuck sensationalist raggish nonsense that will be off the radar as soon as this wave of indignation at the wrong shit subsides, and fuck the discussions that have followed which seem to lack any nuance or recognition of context and looking at characters in aggregate either in the game itself or by the developer. This whole thing has been awash of just lazy ass fucking tackling of a issue that definitely needs to be addressed. However the people doing the article writing are accusatory, insulting and drawing arbitrary as fuck lines in the sand. This shit pisses me the hell off, end rant.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
And then this post gets ignored by the rest of the thread. :lol
I find it mostly annoying because a lot of the time people end up speaking for the masses in threads like these and that's just stupid and against the point and in return, wether they know it or not, sexist towards both genders.
Which honestly isn't a problem with Dragon's Crown at all.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
this issue will never end, let's just have fun and laugh at the haters.
meltingparappa
Member
What makes it all the worse that the game called out as a terrible example, contains a beefy muscular woman that retains a sense of femininity, rare for videogames and rare for fantasy art, and just a female counterpart to the equally caricatured dwarf character.
Devolution
Member
It turns into completely asinine statements about how all sexual objectification is wrong or why should we expect anything else, as if men want to be constantly pandered to on such a base level and women should just suck it up.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
Yup, exactly. It's starting to get really old. Using extreme viewpoints then arguing for more extreme viewpoints in the other direction just leads to a giant clusterfuck of well... egotistical assholes rambling back and forth with little understanding of shit to begin with. But can't do much about it so they will continue to bicker back and forth.
Ok, I think I got my rant out about the last few days. There are real issues and things that could be adressed, but honestly I've only seen a handful posters able to handle the discussion in a mature fashion.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
There's probably one for Greg Land too.
It's a given that the industry is dominated by males. Video games are made by males for males. It is no surprise that that female characters in video games are highly feminized with exaggerated female body parts (breasts, butt). Meanwhile male characters, mainly hero characters, are idealized into these steroidal war-mongering masculine caricatures.
So yes, females are highly sexualized, males are buff and there is a noticeable lack of homosexual characters in video games. Having said that, not all videos games are like this, and ultimately, I think some of the best video games this industry has to offer steps away from this mold.
So yes, females are highly sexualized, males are buff and there is a noticeable lack of homosexual characters in video games. Having said that, not all videos games are like this, and ultimately, I think some of the best video games this industry has to offer steps away from this mold.
Yes. Because writing exactly that line makes it obvious that it's clicking bait. Therefore I neither gave that site a click nor did I consider the rest of the article to be worth any more of my time.
Anyone with a bit of knowledge about video games knows that even 20 years ago not all female video game characters were "giant breasted" and "hyper-sexual bimbos". Some of them were and some of them are like that right now. But it's not all. Not even close. There are also giant breasted hyper-sexual bimbos in hollywood movies, but no one would say that all females in every movie are like that. Arguing for that or against that is a waste of time, because it's factually incorrect.
The problem is that these kind of debates emerge from people making ridiculous generalizations about video games, when in fact they're not in any way worse than other media, which don't seem to attract so much ire. It's not like the majority of games out there are as violent as God of War or habe female character designs like DOA, Soul Calibur and the like.
Vermillion
Banned
Dragon's Crown is just tropes, though. Exaggerated masculine qualities, exaggerated feminine qualities. Incidentally, females are attracted to feminine qualities on men - it has nothing to do with what is a male power fantasy vs. a female fantasy... these are just those qualities exaggerated. I doubt any character means more than another, male or female, and since we've established that "sexy" (even absurdly so) isn't the problem, then how do we determine what is and is not appropriate in a game where most of the characters are shells anyways? I don't think we can judge there.
So we've thus far established the following:
- Sexy isn't the problem
- Sexualized is a result of objectification - that is, the character has no real purpose but to be an object
- Both sides have exaggerated qualities respective of their gender
Following that, I would say that the designs in Dragon's Crown are not a problem, as each character is an object of sorts. Attacking the designs in Dragon's Crown brings forth a scenario where we're attacking "sexy" for being just that (again, however absurd) or simply because the inverse is only attractive to men... more on that in a bit. If it happens that the males in the game serve actual purpose while the female characters remain as nothing but eye candy, then it would make sense to attack the game. But this does not appear to be the case. They are all shells of sorts, with exaggerated qualities fitting their gender. Absurd muscles for the men, absurd T&A for the women.
On that same note, I understand how many of you are looking at it. Basically, that because men are attracted to both designs, it fits either the male power fantasy or fanservice for men. But because the game's purpose is exaggeration/following tropes, that angle is inappropriate. Basically this is "load men up with more testosterone and women with more estrogen." It just so happens that many men find hypermasculine to be an attractive goal (oddly enough) and hyperfeminine to be sexually attractive. To appeal to women, you'd have to do precisely the opposite - that is, less testosterone to the men and less estrogen to the women.
Finally, I imagine that the modern patriarchal structure is the reason that men are attracted to these things - particularly the hypermasculine male as a power fantasy (I say modern because obviously the ancient greeks would prefer less testosterone in the male body).
To summarize: The designs in Dragon's Crown are inoffensive so long as the characters are all shells. They have almost nothing to do with what a man finds attractive or what is a male power fantasy - theses are exaggerations of both masculinity and femininity (more testosterone and estrogen, respectively), and a major reason that these are attractive to men have to do with the modern patriarchal structure. In fact, in a perfectly equal world, where one set out to exaggerate the masculine qualities in men (those dealing with testosterone) and the feminine qualities in women (those dealing with estrogen), you would find that the designs would be the same. The only difference would be in how men and women perceive these designs/whether or not they are attractive to them. The name of the game is exaggeration.
I should additionally note that this post deals with Dragon's Crown and only Dragon's Crown. There is a problem with the portrayal of women in many other video games, where they end up as nothing but objects while the males characters hold a monopoly on having... well, character.
So we've thus far established the following:
- Sexy isn't the problem
- Sexualized is a result of objectification - that is, the character has no real purpose but to be an object
- Both sides have exaggerated qualities respective of their gender
Following that, I would say that the designs in Dragon's Crown are not a problem, as each character is an object of sorts. Attacking the designs in Dragon's Crown brings forth a scenario where we're attacking "sexy" for being just that (again, however absurd) or simply because the inverse is only attractive to men... more on that in a bit. If it happens that the males in the game serve actual purpose while the female characters remain as nothing but eye candy, then it would make sense to attack the game. But this does not appear to be the case. They are all shells of sorts, with exaggerated qualities fitting their gender. Absurd muscles for the men, absurd T&A for the women.
On that same note, I understand how many of you are looking at it. Basically, that because men are attracted to both designs, it fits either the male power fantasy or fanservice for men. But because the game's purpose is exaggeration/following tropes, that angle is inappropriate. Basically this is "load men up with more testosterone and women with more estrogen." It just so happens that many men find hypermasculine to be an attractive goal (oddly enough) and hyperfeminine to be sexually attractive. To appeal to women, you'd have to do precisely the opposite - that is, less testosterone to the men and less estrogen to the women.
Finally, I imagine that the modern patriarchal structure is the reason that men are attracted to these things - particularly the hypermasculine male as a power fantasy (I say modern because obviously the ancient greeks would prefer less testosterone in the male body).
To summarize: The designs in Dragon's Crown are inoffensive so long as the characters are all shells. They have almost nothing to do with what a man finds attractive or what is a male power fantasy - theses are exaggerations of both masculinity and femininity (more testosterone and estrogen, respectively), and a major reason that these are attractive to men have to do with the modern patriarchal structure. In fact, in a perfectly equal world, where one set out to exaggerate the masculine qualities in men (those dealing with testosterone) and the feminine qualities in women (those dealing with estrogen), you would find that the designs would be the same. The only difference would be in how men and women perceive these designs/whether or not they are attractive to them. The name of the game is exaggeration.
I should additionally note that this post deals with Dragon's Crown and only Dragon's Crown. There is a problem with the portrayal of women in many other video games, where they end up as nothing but objects while the males characters hold a monopoly on having... well, character.
meltingparappa
Member
This is such a good and understated point.
In Dragon's Crowns, you are literally just a boob monster, ripped dwarf, or ripped amazon just walking around. It doesn't have any contextual behind it's it's hyper-exaggerated designs that happen to include sexuality.
The witch isn't subservient to a king, the dwarf isn't bawdy and lecherous, and the amazon held up as masculine or feminine. They are just hollow avatars for you to project your own imagination onto that are designed with an incredible amount of personality.
For the game to become a lightning rod for latent hatred of say... the disappoint of the misogyny deeply rooted in the reboot of Lara Croft's, is absolutely ridiculous, and I'm glad so many posts in this thread acknowledge it as such.
Also jeez, worth separating a prudish attitude on caricatured art away from misogynistic narrative themes.
I actually like the design they went with. When I first met her, I wasn't too big on her design, and I kind of dismissed her as a bimbo. When her true personality was revealed, I was completely blown away by her character, and she quickly ended up becoming one of my favorite characters.
999 is definitely a game where the outward appearances of the characters do not match their true personality, and her initial design really helped drive that point home.
palpabl_purpura
Member
Look at the evolution of a character like Cortana.
To me, this is the pinnacle of bullshit in gaming. Yes, women have breasts, but no way does this make sense in the context. This, to me, is an example of what's wrong with the way women are portrayed in games as much as Dragon's Crown.
It's like Pamela Anderson popping up in your Word 2000 asking if you meant to indent that paragraph instead of that fucking paperclip.
RE 1
Code Veronica
RE 5
It's a two way street people.
Devolution
Member
Not really equivalent.
XANDER CAGE
Member
Devolution
Member
There's more of a problem with how Cortana has been post-Gravemind and Halo 4 where she loses her edge completely and it's Kagome!"Cortana", Inuyasha!, "Chief!" Couple this with "I've always wanted to do this." Yuck. Barf.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Videogames are not automatically these public works that we need to criticize and coerce into something that blandly fits what all of society should consider acceptable.
They are individual expressions, and they are for different demographics, and for different individuals.
Yes, I like that people have these conversations about what they want to see in games. I hope that it inspires them to make their own titles that they enjoy. I hope that it inspires companies to deliver these types of experiences.
But if these types of blog posts are hoping to force these niche entertainments to purge themselves of their one-sided sexual imagery or otherwise stop existing altogether? I don't like it.
Sometimes men make entertainment for men. That happens. It's normal and okay that it does.
Just keep pushing for content of your own... don't attack others' desire to create what they like.
They are individual expressions, and they are for different demographics, and for different individuals.
Yes, I like that people have these conversations about what they want to see in games. I hope that it inspires them to make their own titles that they enjoy. I hope that it inspires companies to deliver these types of experiences.
But if these types of blog posts are hoping to force these niche entertainments to purge themselves of their one-sided sexual imagery or otherwise stop existing altogether? I don't like it.
Sometimes men make entertainment for men. That happens. It's normal and okay that it does.
Just keep pushing for content of your own... don't attack others' desire to create what they like.
palpabl_purpura
Member
It's exactly the same. Female went from plain to a figure that is hard to obtain for most women. Male went from plain to a figure that is hard to obtain for most men. Why don't people just play the games and move on.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
That's basically how I feel. Who said these arts were a matter of public approval? If you don't like it, you should vote with your wallet.
I am totally fine with the criticism of these arts, because I see that it's part of the public debate that will challenge and inspire other, more inclusive works. That's great. I get it.
But I hope this isn't about getting the mob to force certain types of expression out of existence...
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
I've spoke to many people about this. Even 4chan. They all agree it's more useful to praise what you want to see instead of making villains of what you don't. It's a horrid way to breed change that leads to violence and reactionaries. This sort of way of committing change is commonplace nowadays and very much part of the women in video games movement now. Tropes v. Women in Video Games comes to mind immediately, though she adds the request for them to be more original, which is a better touch. Villifying things won't make as much change as much as it will fighting compared to praising what you want to see and trying to empower the female market while boasting the benefits of supporting that market.
The character assassination of the artist of Dragon Crown is just pathetic, destructive, and regressive.
Your ideas are too dangerous. I'm sorry but we're going to have to say 'no'.