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40 FPS modes coming to Spider-man and Miles Morales on PS5

GustavoLT

Member
Run your PS5 under some warm water for a few minutes, then restart it. Should do it.

 

DJ12

Member
It's enable!!! I get VRR in Performance and Performance RT working up to 100hz!!! But in fidelity mode, its locked at 40fps!
Banned source but this will give you an indication that you are in fact wrong.


Whether this is a thing one of the xbros will have to confirm, but on ps5 if its below 60fps in 120 mode your frame counter isn't going to work.

In an unrelated point, seeing as there's a lot of headroom I wonder if the res increase without 120 hz is significant.
 
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SlimySnake

Member
It's enable!!! I get VRR in Performance and Performance RT working up to 100hz!!! But in fidelity mode, its locked at 40fps!
Nah, turn VRR off and you will see whats locked 40 fps truly feels like. It feels smoother than 30 fps but still a bit jittery/juddery. Then re-enable VRR from System settings and boom, it will feel a lot smoother. Either because VRR is kicking in or because the framerate is now unlocked and goes over 40 fps in the 50-60 range.
 

Arioco

Member
it will feel a lot smoother. Either because VRR is kicking in or because the framerate is now unlocked and goes over 40 fps in the 50-60 range.


It's the second you mention: the frame rate is unlocked. Actually the games which have a 40 fps mode we've seen so far run at around 50 fps when the cap is removed, so yes, it's no wonder they run a lot smoother with VRR, there are really close to 60 fps, which to be honest is very impressive for a native 4K game, with RT reflections and all the bells and whistles. A lot better than I expected.
 
Banned source but this will give you an indication that you are in fact wrong.


Whether this is a thing one of the xbros will have to confirm, but on ps5 if its below 60fps in 120 mode your frame counter isn't going to work.

In an unrelated point, seeing as there's a lot of headroom I wonder if the res increase without 120 hz is significant.

Holy shit those frame rates are insane.
 

01011001

Gold Member
Here a conversation from the VRR thread that is relevant here

I have found evidence of Low Framerate Compensation on PS5

I downloaded the Matrix Demo on both consoles and searched for a way to get consistent framedrops that aren't stutters/spikes that go below 24fps. (as even with LFC the lower bounds on PS5 will be 24fps which translates to 48hz)

and I found a way. standing in a specific spot and moving the sun position back and forth forces Lumen to re-render the lighting which causes GPU related drops it seems.

first Xbox:

and here PS5:

both drop similarly here and are just between 30fps and 24fps it seems, giving us refresh rates of ~50hz +/- 2fps

Interesting, suspect the game/engine is doing it

that's usually what games do. a 30fps game usually sends out 60fps by doubling every frame.

which leads me back to Insomniac's 40fps 120hz modes being clearly broken when combined with VRR. it clearly isn't optimised for VRR as it seemingly doesn't correctly support low framerate compensation, which on PS5 is fatal due to the lowest bound for VRR support on it being 48hz. this is why we see the refresh rates go completely nuts in those modes.

so Insomniac needs to change how that mode behaves in future updates and make sure it doubles every frame
 
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yamaci17

Gold Member
Here a conversation from the VRR thread that is relevant here
lfc is practically 1/2 or 1/3 or at times 1/4 vsync without the usual vsync lag

it is no different than sync'ing a game that runs at 40 fps to 120 hz

this dude here says "it doesnt quite right. frames are doubling". thats literally what the entire generation of lastgen consoles did, doubling 30 frames to 60 hz output. no one in their right mind would play games at 30 hz. that would actually wore out your eyes.


and here he says its a perfect experience, no judders , no stutters


i wonder what caused his ideas to change so drastically
 
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01011001

Gold Member
lfc is practically 1/2 or 1/3 or at times 1/4 vsync without the usual vsync lag

it is no different than sync'ing a game that runs at 40 fps to 120 hz

this dude here says "it doesnt quite right. frames are doubling". thats literally what the entire generation of lastgen consoles did, doubling 30 frames to 60 hz output. no one in their right mind would play games at 30 hz. that would actually wore out your eyes.


and here he says its a perfect experience, no judders , no stutters


i wonder what caused his ideas to change so drastically

what I'm saying is that Insomniac's games don't actually do this correctly. you can clearly see this with any TV everyone has recorded so far including me, where the game's refresh sporadically jumps around like crazy.

and no it's not smooth, it feels smoother than locked 40fps but that's simply because unlocked 40fps at 120hz simply feels better than locked 40fps.

if Insomniac wants ro properly support VRR they have to make the game double every frame when VRR is on. if that was implemented we would see a pretty steady 80hz to 90hz output on any VRR counter
 
what I'm saying is that Insomniac's games don't actually do this correctly. you can clearly see this with any TV everyone has recorded so far including me, where the game's refresh sporadically jumps around like crazy.

and no it's not smooth, it feels smoother than locked 40fps but that's simply because unlocked 40fps at 120hz simply feels better than locked 40fps.

if Insomniac wants ro properly support VRR they have to make the game double every frame when VRR is on. if that was implemented we would see a pretty steady 80hz to 90hz output on any VRR counter
Never heard of this on PC, doesn't seem to make any sense. Why double it if it's within the VRR range? Is that how Xbox does it?
 
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01011001

Gold Member
Never heard of this on PC, doesn't seem to make any sense. Why double it if it's within the VRR range? Is that how Xbox does it?

yes on Xbox every game either outputs 60hz or 120hz depending on your settings. and then with VRR gets scaled up and down from that.

this ensures maximum compatibility without developers needing to do anything.

on PS5 this is the exact same btw. the only issue currently is that Insomniac's games, which have specific VRR modes that behave differently than other games, have issues in fidelity mode as that mode is originally designed to run at 40fps at 120hz by tripling every frame.

it seems like enabling VRR in that mode leads to completely unstable refresh rates on your TV.

also the lowest bound on PS5 is 48hz so these games need frame doubling to display correctly as they are clearly dropping below 48fps often
 

Shmunter

Gold Member
yes on Xbox every game either outputs 60hz or 120hz depending on your settings. and then with VRR gets scaled up and down from that.

this ensures maximum compatibility without developers needing to do anything.

on PS5 this is the exact same btw. the only issue currently is that Insomniac's games, which have specific VRR modes that behave differently than other games, have issues in fidelity mode as that mode is originally designed to run at 40fps at 120hz by tripling every frame.

it seems like enabling VRR in that mode leads to completely unstable refresh rates on your TV.

also the lowest bound on PS5 is 48hz so these games need frame doubling to display correctly as they are clearly dropping below 48fps often
People are reporting Spider-Man in fidelity with VRR is a revelation tho - night and day like this German guy says….

 

01011001

Gold Member
People are reporting Spider-Man in fidelity with VRR is a revelation tho - night and day like this German guy says….


his own TV shows how erratic the refresh is.

the thing is at 120hz output unstable 60fps, which is what the fidelity mode essentially is with 120hz VRR enabled, actually feels decent as frametimes aren't jumping up and down as much.

for me the VRR mode also "feels" better because it clearly runs at a higher framerate than 40fps. and 50fps at 120hz feels better to me than 40fps at 120hz

but there is clearly something not working right. if VRR was working right you would see his, my, and anyone else's TV display a refresh between 80hz and 120hz at basically all times. but that's not what happens.

what happens is that some TVs with faster refresh counters only ever displaying 48hz or 120hz, and my TV which updates the refresh counter differently shows the refresh jump erratically from 120hz to ~70hz and back up again.

fixing that would be simple, the game needs to be locked to 60fps and double every frame when you have it set to Fidelity mode + 120hz VRR
 
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Shmunter

Gold Member
his own TV shows how erratic the refresh is.

the thing is at 120hz output unstable 60fps, which is what the fidelity mode essentially is with 120hz VRR enabled, actually feels decent as frametimes aren't jumping up and down as much.

for me the VRR mode also "feels" better because it clearly runs at a higher framerate than 40fps. and 50fps at 120hz feels better to me than 40fps at 120hz

but there is clearly something not working right. if VRR was working right you would see his, my and anyone else's TV display a refresh between 80hz and 120hz at basically all times. but that's not what happens.

what happens is that some TVs with slower refresh counters only ever displaying 48hz or 120hz, and my TV which updates the refresh differently shows the refresh junp erratically from 120hz to ~70hz and back up again.

fixing that would be simple, the game needs to be locked to 60fps and double every frame when you have it set to Fidelity mode + 120hz VRR
What we may be seeing is the engine even tripling the framerate when in a certain threshold for some reason?
 
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01011001

Gold Member
What we may be seeing is the engine even tripling the framerate when in a certain threshold for some reason?

I also think frame tripling is happening. but not at all times.
it just generally seems like this mode wasn't really made with VRR in mind. but a patch should be simple
 

Shmunter

Gold Member
I also think frame tripling is happening. but not at all times.
it just generally seems like this mode wasn't really made with VRR in mind. but a patch should be simple
Yes, but it’s running smoother then the base 40 so end result is a success seemingly.
 

01011001

Gold Member
Yes, but it’s running smoother then the base 40 so end result is a success seemingly.

a success that still feels jittery tho if you actually are sensitive to that. with a patch where each frame is always doubled and the max framerate is 60fps the game would most likely feel extremely smooth.

I played Elden Ring on Series X at 120hz VRR and that feels much smoother even tho Framerates also drop into the mid 40s
 
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skneogaf

Member
This developer insomniac games are top tier!

These updates like 40fps and unlocked frame rate are exactly what we want!

Ps5 Pro or 6 will also massively benefit from what they're doing now with these patches.

Less need for pc gaming with patches like these..
 

Shmunter

Gold Member
a success that still feels jittery tho if you actually are sensitive to that. with a patch where each frame is always doubled and the max framerate is 60fps the game would most likely feel extremely smooth.

I played Elden Ring on Series X at 120hz VRR and that feels much smoother even tho Framerates also drop into the mid 40s
The German guy says it’s not jittery, I don’t understand
 

01011001

Gold Member
The German guy says it’s not jittery, I don’t understand

I mean to demonstrate that he could film the screen in slow motion with his seemingly high quality camera while panning the camera in-game around in a circle slowly in a spot in the game where not much is happening so that the framerate is relatively steady. and then show the results.

if VRR works correctly the resulting output on his TV should be relatively evenly frametimed, if not we will find jumps up and down.

I might do that later on my phone. my phone has a "super slow mo" function that records at a relatively high Framerate I think. (edit: apparently I can set that to more than 900fps... lol)
 
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01011001

Gold Member
IDK man, I am hearing from people on here and other places saying that it's very smooth in unlocked 40 fidelity.

subjective testimonials are useless tho. we also heard from people during the PS3 era saying Killzone 2 has no input lag issue... the same happened when Rise of the Tomb Raider released on Xbox One, which had I think even worse input lag than Killzone 2.

so what people "feel" isn't really relevant.

the data so far shows erratic behaviour while using that mode whever an actual refresh counter is shown. and I can subjectively tell you for me it feels better but it doesn't look smoothed out by VRR in the way the often similarly performing Elden Ring on Series X does... but you shouldn't take that as any evidence either as that is my subjective view of the situation.

I will try that "super slow motion" my phone can do later and see if I can capture how frametimes differ between Elden Ring at 120hz VRR and Spider-Man at 120hz VRR. maybe this will demonstrate what I subjectively feel is the case in an objectively repeatable way.
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
subjective testimonials are useless tho. we also heard from people during the PS3 era saying Killzone 2 has no input lag issue... the same happened when Rise of the Tomb Raider released on Xbox One, which had I think even worse input lag than Killzone 2.

so what people "feel" isn't really relevant.

the data so far shows erratic behaviour while using that mode whever an actual refresh counter is shown. and I can subjectively tell you for me it feels better but it doesn't look smoothed out by VRR in the way the often similarly performing Elden Ring on Series X does... but you shouldn't take that as any evidence either as that is my subjective view of the situation.

I will try that "super slow motion" my phone can do later and see if I can capture how frametimes differ between Elden Ring at 120hz VRR and Spider-Man at 120hz VRR. maybe this will demonstrate what I subjectively feel is the case in an objectively repeatable way.
So Riky Riky and his testimonial on VRR makes everything that fluctuates, frame paces, and jitters smooth, is off the mark?

Who to believe. Hmmm. :pie_thinking:
 
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Shmunter

Gold Member
subjective testimonials are useless tho. we also heard from people during the PS3 era saying Killzone 2 has no input lag issue... the same happened when Rise of the Tomb Raider released on Xbox One, which had I think even worse input lag than Killzone 2.

so what people "feel" isn't really relevant.

the data so far shows erratic behaviour while using that mode whever an actual refresh counter is shown. and I can subjectively tell you for me it feels better but it doesn't look smoothed out by VRR in the way the often similarly performing Elden Ring on Series X does... but you shouldn't take that as any evidence either as that is my subjective view of the situation.

I will try that "super slow motion" my phone can do later and see if I can capture how frametimes differ between Elden Ring at 120hz VRR and Spider-Man at 120hz VRR. maybe this will demonstrate what I subjectively feel is the case in an objectively repeatable way.
But they are doing a/b tests in real-time. Spider-Man does not restart when VRR is turned on/off. That is the least subjective when you can feel for yourself the difference in an instant.
 

01011001

Gold Member
But they are doing a/b tests in real-time. Spider-Man does not restart when VRR is turned on/off. That is the least subjective when you can feel for yourself the difference in an instant.

yes but a higher framerate will of course feel better for many even if the framepacing is not smoothed out by VRR.

which leaves us again with the only objective data we have so far, and that is that refresh counters jump around erratically without any sense of consistency.

I will later when I got time record that super low mo on my phone, first in Elden Ring, where I will look for a spot that runs roughly at below 50fps. and then in Spider-Man where I feel it being 50fps or lower.

and comparing the 2 will either prove me wrong or right. if I am correct with my subjective feeling that the framepacing is erratic the resulting video should show uneven frame delivery over time in one game but not the other.

if I am wrong both will look similarly evenly spaced
 

Mr Moose

Member
yes but a higher framerate will of course feel better for many even if the framepacing is not smoothed out by VRR.

which leaves us again with the only objective data we have so far, and that is that refresh counters jump around erratically without any sense of consistency.

I will later when I got time record that super low mo on my phone, first in Elden Ring, where I will look for a spot that runs roughly at below 50fps. and then in Spider-Man where I feel it being 50fps or lower.

and comparing the 2 will either prove me wrong or right. if I am correct with my subjective feeling that the framepacing is erratic the resulting video should show uneven frame delivery over time in one game but not the other.

if I am wrong both will look similarly evenly spaced
Are you seeing it from 48Hz to 90+Hz?
 

Shmunter

Gold Member
yes but a higher framerate will of course feel better for many even if the framepacing is not smoothed out by VRR.

which leaves us again with the only objective data we have so far, and that is that refresh counters jump around erratically without any sense of consistency.

I will later when I got time record that super low mo on my phone, first in Elden Ring, where I will look for a spot that runs roughly at below 50fps. and then in Spider-Man where I feel it being 50fps or lower.

and comparing the 2 will either prove me wrong or right. if I am correct with my subjective feeling that the framepacing is erratic the resulting video should show uneven frame delivery over time in one game but not the other.

if I am wrong both will look similarly evenly spaced
Ok, see what you get
 

01011001

Gold Member
Are you seeing it from 48Hz to 90+Hz?

my TV jumps from 119hz (120hz, my TV rounds down) down to roughly 70hz and back up again. sometimes it jumps to 75hz, sometimes 65hz... it's really uneven. I posted a video earlier showing what it does.
 
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01011001

Gold Member
ok, so I made "Super Slow Motion" videos

video 1 is Elden Ring on Xbox 120hz VRR ~50fps
video 2 is Spider-Man Fidelity mode 120hz VRR ~50fps BEFORE TODAY'S PATCH
video 3 is Spider-Man Fidelity mode 120hz VRR ~50fps AFTER TODAY'S PATCH

this last video is "normal" slow mo, I can do a super slow mo shot too, but since the patch didn't do much, I thought this would be more interesting

edit: super low mo after patch

as soon as the super slowmotion kicks in you see 0.8 seconds of footage shot at ~480fps streched out to about 20 seconds at 30fps

not sure if they are really conclusive... all I can say is that after playing both games back to back again, both running roughly at the same framerate, Elden Ring definitely looks snoother in motion, but again, that's subjective...

but in the video I think some of the jumps between frames in spiderman are more pronounced

edit: I made a super slow mo after the update real quick and added it as the 4th video above

edit2: I found that that refresh jumps around even on the map, and since you can move the map at an even speed I thought that would be a prime candidate to see if frametimes are even.



normal slow mo

PS5 share button recording
 
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01011001

Gold Member
It's not the facts people have issue with, it's the cuntdescending tones and known disdain.

Yes it's better, so yes Sony should include FreeSync as well.

it's not just the FreeSync support, the VRR in general is just worse. starting from missing global 120hz option, to back compat games not working and of course the VRR window not going as low as even on Xbox One S/X

so he is factually correct to say it is worse 🤷 doesn't really matter how condescending his tone is, in the end he reports on facts

I don't have a problem with that, it's Alex' attitude towards everything playstation that makes him annoying to listen to

uhm... that's just him with any console. also I bet it's John who will be doing the VRR tests as he has an LG C1 which has good VRR support
 
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GustavoLT

Member
everybody will bennefit with Playstation making it available.

not only gaming market, but TV´s as well...

All major devs now should give some attention to VRR!

hope this blackfriday explodes in VRR capable TV´s!
 

01011001

Gold Member
everybody will bennefit with Playstation making it available.

not only gaming market, but TV´s as well...

All major devs now should give some attention to VRR!

hope this blackfriday explodes in VRR capable TV´s!

you can't really get any mid to top range TV these days that doesn't have VRR support.

my 3 year old upper-mid range Samsung has it... so I mean... even last black Friday should have been full with deals on VRR TVs
 
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