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[Tams]

Of course you can. There are parts of the world that cannot be changed by an individual. Those parts are best ignored, or at most, watched like changing weather and nothing more.

Hard to ignore parts of the world when they come and affect you and your allies.

I wanna see the receipts. China isn't on the rise because of 'apathy'. It's on the rise because of exploitation by American companies and people willing to believe anything they're told by marketing and advertisement.

I was talking about apathy in China.

This is your 3rd attack in your post and another arm-chair psychologist guess of who or what I am like. Maybe you should turn that high powered perception on yourself and see that the problem lies within you.

It's not being an "armchair psychologist" to describe how you are acting. I'm not presuming anything.

1 million innocent civilians in the middle-east beg to differ. That's before we talk about Vietnam and Hiroshima/Nagasaki.

Show me some statistics that show 1 million civilians were killed by coalition forces. Most were killed by what can very kindly be called 'armed resistance'.

Vietnam was a proxy war. I never said the US had its hands clean there, nor that the South Vietnamese were good. Ho Chi Minh was a brutal cunt too.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki are still strongly debated. It's not clear whether Japan would have surrendered quickly if they had not been used. There is more questionability about Nagasaki (which was intended for Kokura). Few Japanese people resent the US for it now though, that I can tell you.

But your post is exactly what I was talking about; you attack people aggressively, based on emotions and feelings and nothing else. You act like a champion for a cause yet have no idea what's going on outside of what you have read and heard. You then take that information as gospel.

All I can say, is I hope you respond reasonably as I have above. I hope your knowledge of history is adequate to be having this discussion.

 

[captainnapalm]

You're not providing some 'alternative context', you're just showing your lack of intelligence and critical thinking skills.

That's shown by the your response in the Ukraine thread of, "I don't know" when asked how peace could be negotiated.

Here I thought I was just being honest because it would be insane for me to suggest I could know that, sitting in front of my pc thousands of miles away. I appreciate you giving me one chance to outline my peace deal, though, and I am sorry to have squandered it.

 

[FunkMiller]

Whatever fella, I'm not overly interested in talking with most of you on here for obvious reasons, but I'm happy to provide some alternative context for lurkers and readers on here who may be interested.

The obvious reasons in this case being that you think Ukraine should roll over and surrender because it inconveniences you, and your lifestyle, and that you'll get a huge amount of pushback on this site from people who think it's more important to fully support the people being butchered.

That is your 'alternative context'.

As it is for Elon Musk... who suggests the Ukrainians negotiate with the Russians because he doesn't want the war to carry on, because he's afraid it'll impact on him and his. His opinion, and yours, have nothing to do with helping Ukraine, and everything to do with helping yourselves. Or so you both think, despite the fact that allowing Putin victory in Ukraine means your comfortable, easy lifestyle with be even more threatened in the future.

 

[Tams]

Here I thought I was just being honest because it would be insane for me to suggest I could know that, sitting in front of my pc thousands of miles away. I appreciate you giving me one chance to outline my peace deal, though, and I am sorry to have squandered it.

If you're not prepared to back up your comments, then why bother?

And it's pointless just saying something should happen without suggesting some way to achieve it. It adds nothing to the discussion.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

Hard to ignore parts of the world when they come and affect you and your allies.

How are they affecting you personally? Remember, I said it's best to ignore what's going on for your own peace of mind, so please respond with examples of how your life has changed due to [insert event].

I was talking about apathy in China.

That is only the concern of the Chinese and nothing to do with anyone outside of China.

It's not being an "armchair psychologist" to describe how you are acting. I'm not presuming anything.

You called me lazy and apathetic, the consequences of which I wouldn't experience because I'd be dead but my children would suffer. Bring up the "won't someone think of the children" is poor rhetoric.

Show me some statistics that show 1 million civilians were killed by coalition forces. Most were killed by what can very kindly be called 'armed resistance'.

No. I'm not here to jump through your hoops to provide examples and links and stories that you will say are the wrong links or the wrong data or there's some nuance to whatever it is.

Vietnam was a proxy war. I never said the US had its hands clean there, nor that the South Vietnamese were good. Ho Chi Minh was a brutal cunt too.

Let's leave this as I never wanted to discuss global politics. The original example of us and Afghanistan wad just that, an example.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki are still strongly debated. It's not clear whether Japan would have surrendered quickly if they had not been used. There is more questionability about Nagasaki (which was intended for Kokura). Few Japanese people resent the US for it now though, that I can tell you.

They wouldn't have surrendered. Their army would have fought your army to the death. Millions of soldiers on both sides would have died. But that's what they signed up for. Mrs hung tsu nipping for some shopping for her grandma and kids (see, I can use kids as an emotional argument just as poorly as you did) didn't sign up to be turned into a shadow on the floor.

But again, as above, let's leave this debate.

All I can say, is I hope you respond reasonably as I have above. I hope your knowledge of history is adequate to be having this discussion.

You ask for a reasonable response then add a qualifier. Define adequate knowledge of history. Furthermore, what does the knowledge level of history have to do with a discussion over how people should or should not believe news stories, in a thread about Elon Musk buying twitter?

 

[Tams]

How are they affecting you personally? Remember, I said it's best to ignore what's going on for your own peace of mind, so please respond with examples of how your life has changed due to [insert event].


That is only the concern of the Chinese and nothing to do with anyone outside of China.

You called me lazy and apathetic, the consequences of which I wouldn't experience because I'd be dead but my children would suffer. Bring up the "won't someone think of the children" is poor rhetoric.

No. I'm not here to jump through your hoops to provide examples and links and stories that you will say are the wrong links or the wrong data or there's some nuance to whatever it is.


Let's leave this as I never wanted to discuss global politics. The original example of us and Afghanistan wad just that, an example.


They wouldn't have surrendered. Their army would have fought your army to the death. Millions of soldiers on both sides would have died. But that's what they signed up for. Mrs hung tsu nipping for some shopping for her grandma and kids (see, I can use kids as an emotional argument just as poorly as you did) didn't sign up to be turned into a shadow on the floor.

But again, as above, let's leave this debate.


You ask for a reasonable response then add a qualifier. Define adequate knowledge of history. Furthermore, what does the knowledge level of history have to do with a discussion over how people should or should not believe news stories, in a thread about Elon Musk buying twitter?

Yeah, you're a right nutjob.

The only thing I can be bothered addressing in that hazed rant is "Mrs hung tsu nipping for some shopping for her grandma and kids".

You can't even recognise Japanese names properly, yet claim to have sympathy for them.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

Yeah, you're a right nutjob.

Another emotional response. Proving my point that those who delve too far into topics out of their control, end up becoming emotionally attached and lose objectivity.

Please prove I'm a nutjob by posting the effect that Elon Musk buying twitter, or his peace proposal for the Ukraine conflict is having on your life

The only thing I can be bothered addressing in that hazed rant is "Mrs hung tsu nipping for some shopping for her grandma and kids".

You can't even recognise Japanese names properly, yet claim to have sympathy for them.

So in addition to having adequate knowledge of history i need to know the names of the individuals killed in a nuclear blast some 80 years ago, before you allow people to have sympathy for them?

Do you know the names of the 3500 people who lost their lives on September 11th?
Or the 6.6 million jewish people/ the 15 million who were killed in the Nazi genocide? (Sorry to any posters reading this, I didn't want to Godwins law but posters like Tams are not discussing in good faith and are led blindly by emotion)

 

[Punished Miku]

MSN

Another "great" suggestion from Musk.

 

[AJUMP23]

I have been gone for a week, what did I miss?

 

[FunkMiller]

MSN

Another "great" suggestion from Musk.

I wonder whether he realises that these kinds of comments will have an impact on his business moving forward. You would hope so, and he just doesn’t care… because the alternative is that he’s too stupid to understand that coming out in favour of authoritarian regimes is complete anathema to the free market.

 

[winjer]

MSN

Another "great" suggestion from Musk.

TSMC should just ban Tesla and all other of Musk's companies, from receiving chips.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

TSMC should just ban Tesla and all other of Musk's companies, from receiving chips.

Isn't that against freedom? The Free market is a foundation of capitalism. To go against that is to then agree with the same authoritarian regimes that people are against.

 

[winjer]

Isn't that against freedom? The Free market is a foundation of capitalism. To go against that is to then agree with the same authoritarian regimes that people are against.

So you think that selling out an independent country is ok, but a boycott is bad.

Might I remind you that the CPP's idea of a free market includes arresting CEO's who disagree with the party.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

So you think that selling out an independent country is ok, but a boycott is bad.

A boycott against a guy who has become villified on social media because he asked a question, the same guy who, according to the same people who now villify him, is saving the planet with electric cars?

Taiwan isn't recognised as an independent country by the US.

Might I remind you that the CPP's idea of a free market includes arresting CEO's who disagree with the party.

idgaf about China. Their problems are their problems. If we're going to help china by boycotting companies, those using child labour should be top of the list, not a guy asking how we can achieve peace.

 

[Punished Miku]

Isn't that against freedom? The Free market is a foundation of capitalism. To go against that is to then agree with the same authoritarian regimes that people are against.

The west is going to have to figure out how to weaponize its corporations at some point for the interest of the state, while preserving as much free market elements as possible. Every corporation in China serves the state. Every corporation in the US acts like they are being treated unfairly if taxed at all or any regulations imposed, but then these same corporations do business in China and will submit to literally any demand they have, while thanking them for it. Western governments will have to eventually use much stricter controls on their corporations to compete against this unequal playing field and preserve their interests. Musk says California is too strict, but then will work with the CCP while they steal any and all technology they have and eventually will just replace them with a Chinese company. The big lie is that any company is being treated unfairly in the west. They submit to far harsher demands from China all day. It's a perverse exploitation of free markets while propping up a state controlled economy. The "free markets" will have to wake up soon and preserve their own interests. You're already seeing it start with high end chips being banned for sale to China, or 5G being held up. Many more restrictions will be coming.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

The west is going to have to figure out how to weaponize its corporations at some point for the interest of the state, while preserving as much free market elements as possible. Every corporation in China serves the state. Every corporation in the US acts like they are being treated unfairly if taxed at all or any regulations imposed, but then these same corporations do business in China and will submit to literally any demand they have, while thanking them for it. Western governments will have to eventually use much stricter controls on their corporations to compete against this unequal playing field and preserve their interests. Musk says California is too strict, but then will work with the CCP while they steal any and all technology they have and eventually will just replace them with a Chinese company. The big lie is that any company is being treated unfairly in the west. They submit to far harsher demands from China all day. It's a perverse exploitation of free markets while propping up a state controlled economy. The "free markets" will have to wake up soon and preserve their own interests. You're already seeing it start with high end chips being banned for sale to China, or 5G being held up. Many more restrictions will be coming.

Very good post.

China is used to exploit the workers of the west. If the Iphone was made in america, it would cost more to manufacture, but it could also be sold cheaper to americans if Apple took less of a cut (they can afford).

However, apple make a product on the other side of the planet for pennies, then sell it to the west at maximum profit, screwing over the average customer in a sick double-whammy.

I agree that the west needs to become more 'isolationist' when it comes to making, building and designing products. especially those sold to the citizens of the west.

 

[winjer]

A boycott against a guy who has become villified on social media because he asked a question, the same guy who, according to the same people who now villify him, is saving the planet with electric cars?

Taiwan isn't recognised as an independent country by the US.

idgaf about China. Their problems are their problems. If we're going to help china by boycotting companies, those using child labour should be top of the list, not a guy asking how we can achieve peace.

Taiwan has been independent of China for close to 80 years.
And they have re-affirmed their wish to remain independent.
Sacrifying an entire people, just for some pretense of peace is not a solution.
Having a country invading it's neighbors without resistance is not peace.

The US might not officially recognize Taiwan as a country, but the USA is the main reason why China hasn't invaded Taiwan yet.
It's the USA help that has kept the Taiwanese people free.

Yes, boycotting companies that use slave labor is a good concept.
But one wrong does not justify another.

Musk's only concern is his stock price. Now that he is opening factories in China, and investing so much, he doesn't want to lose money by having problems with the CCP.
He is so morally corrupt, that he would sell out Ukraine and Taiwan for a percentage.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

Taiwan has been independent of China for close to 80 years.
And they have re-affirmed their wish to remain independent.
Sacrifying an entire people, just for some pretense of peace is not a solution.
Having a country invading it's neighbors without resistance is not peace.

I think we've crossed streams here. I was referring to the ukrainian peace plan not China/taiwan. Sorry for any confusion. Taiwan is only independent depending on who you ask. the US does not recognise Taiwan as independent.

The US might not officially recognize Taiwan as a country, but the USA is the main reason why China hasn't invaded Taiwan yet.
It's the USA help that has kept the Taiwanese people free.

Maybe. I wouldn't bet the farm on that though, as USA has just shown that China can take Taiwan and all the US will do is sanction them.

Yes, boycotting companies that use slave labor is a good concept.
But one wrong does not justify another.

Very true, one wrong does not justify the other. Are what Musk has said and the exploitation of child labour the same though? Are they weighted and on the same level as one another? Stubbing my toe hurts, so does crushing my hand in a vice. They're not the same though,

Musk's only concern is his stock price. Now that he is opening factories in China, and investing so much, he doesn't want to lose money by having problems with the CCP.
He is so morally corrupt, that he would sell out Ukraine and Taiwan for a percentage.

That's fair. Now if we hold Musk to a set of standards, we must hold everyone else who does the same as Musk to the same standards. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. And for me, that's the biggest problem. We attack musk today while buying Iphones and watching Disney films. At some point, we must be true to ourselves and either say; "let musk do what he wants, the same as the rest" OR "None of this is acceptable and we must stop all of it"

 

[winjer]

I think we've crossed streams here. I was referring to the ukrainian peace plan not China/taiwan. Sorry for any confusion. Taiwan is only independent depending on who you ask. the US does not recognise Taiwan as independent.

Taiwan has no political input from China for many decades. It has it's own political system, army and economy.
Most countries don't officially recognize Taiwan as a country, just as not to upset the CCP.
But most countries have no issue in trading with Taiwan, visiting the country and talking to it's leaders.

Maybe. I wouldn't bet the farm on that though, as USA has just shown that China can take Taiwan and all the US will do is sanction them.

You clearly don't know the story about China and Taiwan, otherwise you would know that for decades, it was the military presence near Taiwan that prevented China from invading. And that also happens now.
Not only with the presence of limitary force, but also by selling high end military arms to Taiwan. And also by strengthening the economic ties between Taiwan and the USA.

Very true, one wrong does not justify the other. Are what Musk has said and the exploitation of child labour the same though? Are they weighted and on the same level as one another? Stubbing my toe hurts, so does crushing my hand in a vice. They're not the same though,

You do realize that China uses extensive slave labor. And you dor realize that if China ever attacks Taiwan, there will be thousands of deaths. Maybe millions.
The CCP is not the good guy here. It0s an authoritarian regime, that has no problem in using violence against anyone, be it it's neighbors or it's won population. Or even commit genocide, like what is happening now with the Uyghurs.

That's fair. Now if we hold Musk to a set of standards, we must hold everyone else who does the same as Musk to the same standards. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. And for me, that's the biggest problem. We attack musk today while buying Iphones and watching Disney films. At some point, we must be true to ourselves and either say; "let musk do what he wants, the same as the rest" OR "None of this is acceptable and we must stop all of it"

Do you see many CEO's supporting the annexation of Ukraine and Taiwan? The answer in no.
Disney and Apple are not supporting the invasion of Ukraine, nor of Taiwan. That is a very big difference.
Though I must agree that their willingness to ignore the CPP's crimes to sell movies and phones there, is very imoral.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

Taiwan has no political input from China for many decades. It has it's own political system, army and economy.
Most countries don't officially recognize Taiwan as a country, just as not to upset the CCP.
But most countries have no issue in trading with Taiwan, visiting the country and talking to it's leaders.

Then how is what Musk is doing any different to those countries? I'm not taking a stance on either side of the fence, just asking a question

You clearly don't know the story about China and Taiwan, otherwise you would know that for decades, it was the military presence near Taiwan that prevented China from invading. And that also happens now.
Not only with the presence of limitary force, but also by selling high end military arms to Taiwan. And also by strengthening the economic ties between Taiwan and the USA.

Please rephrase this as I am not understanding the point. Not to be difficult but I would rather not misinterpret what could be a very good point

You do realize that China uses extensive slave labor. And you dor realize that if China ever attacks Taiwan, there will be thousands of deaths. Maybe millions.
The CCP is not the good guy here. It0s an authoritarian regime, that has no problem in using violence against anyone, be it it's neighbors or it's won population. Or even commit genocide, like what is happening now with the Uyghurs.

I agree 100% with that you said. China are despicable. I'm glad we agree. Anyone that trades with or deals with China supports this slave trade and it needs to end, today.

Do you see many CEO's supporting the annexation of Ukraine and Taiwan? The answer in no.
Disney and Apple are not supporting the invasion of Ukraine, nor of Taiwan. That is a very big difference.
Though I must agree that their willingness to ignore the CPP's crimes to sell movies and phones there, is very imoral.

I don't see Musk supporting the annexation of Ukraine. I see him attempting to try and find a condition of peace that will be good enough for both sides. Maybe he's missed the mark, but he is the only public figure, or the most public figure, pushing for some sort of peaceful solution

 

[Toons]

How are they affecting you personally? Remember, I said it's best to ignore what's going on for your own peace of mind, so please respond with examples of how your life has changed due to [insert event].


That is only the concern of the Chinese and nothing to do with anyone outside of China.

You called me lazy and apathetic, the consequences of which I wouldn't experience because I'd be dead but my children would suffer. Bring up the "won't someone think of the children" is poor rhetoric.

No. I'm not here to jump through your hoops to provide examples and links and stories that you will say are the wrong links or the wrong data or there's some nuance to whatever it is.


Let's leave this as I never wanted to discuss global politics. The original example of us and Afghanistan wad just that, an example.


They wouldn't have surrendered. Their army would have fought your army to the death. Millions of soldiers on both sides would have died. But that's what they signed up for. Mrs hung tsu nipping for some shopping for her grandma and kids (see, I can use kids as an emotional argument just as poorly as you did) didn't sign up to be turned into a shadow on the floor.

But again, as above, let's leave this debate.


You ask for a reasonable response then add a qualifier. Define adequate knowledge of history. Furthermore, what does the knowledge level of history have to do with a discussion over how people should or should not believe news stories, in a thread about Elon Musk buying twitter?

This is the mind of someone with so little empathy that he would see billions die unjustly before allowing himself to be even slightly inconvenienced on a personal level.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

This is the mind of someone with so little empathy that he would see billions die unjustly before allowing himself to be even slightly inconvenienced on a personal level.

Me?

 

[winjer]

Then how is what Musk is doing any different to those countries? I'm not taking a stance on either side of the fence, just asking a question

How can't you tell the diference. Most countries just pretend there is nothing going on, and not siding with anyone.
Musk is actively supporting the annexation of Taiwan.

Please rephrase this as I am not understanding the point. Not to be difficult but I would rather not misinterpret what could be a very good point

What part don't you understand?
The presence of the US military forces in the region has been a deterrent for China doe many decades now.
And China is committing many crimes against humanity, including genocide, slavery, political persecution, etc.

I agree 100% with that you said. China are despicable. I'm glad we agree. Anyone that trades with or deals with China supports this slave trade and it needs to end, today.

Having China conquer another country won't solve slavery. Quite the opposite, it will increase their slave pool.
I also agree that more companies should stop using China to manufacture their products.

I don't see Musk supporting the annexation of Ukraine. I see him attempting to try and find a condition of peace that will be good enough for both sides. Maybe he's missed the mark, but he is the only public figure, or the most public figure, pushing for some sort of peaceful solution

Giving away 20% of a country is not a peace solution.
It wasn't when Hitler annexed Checoslováquia, and it's not a solution when Russia is trying to annex Ukraine.
Remember that there was already a compromise with Russia, after the invasion of Crimea. And that didn't bring peace, it only signaled to Putin that Ukraine and the West would do nothing if he invaded again. And guess what, Putin did invade Ukraine again.
And before you try to tell me that there are many Russians living in Crimea, might I remind you that the reason for that is the Russian genocide over the Tartars. And that even Stalin put Crimea under Ukrainian administration during the Cold War.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

How can't you tell the diference. Most countries just pretend there is nothing going on, and not siding with anyone.
Musk is actively supporting the annexation of Taiwan.

How is he supporting the annexation of taiwan? Genuine question, I've only seen his posts around Ukraine. I don't do social media

What part don't you understand?
The presence of the US military forces in the region has been a deterrent for China doe many decades now.
And China is committing many crimes against humanity, including genocide, slavery, political persecution, etc.

I wasn't sure that's the angle you went with. Thanks for the clarification.

A detterent to stop china going into taiwan is good, but while the same country sells arms to taiwan, they strengthen China by topping up their coffers with trade. The same country that pushed for sanctions on Putin, do nothing about China. And I assume, maybe incorrectly, that they will only deal with china if/when they invade taiwan. Will they apply sanctions on China then?

I agree china are committing terrible inhumane acts. So why do countries/corporations get a pass for dealing with them, when Musk gets vilified for doing the same. We can't pick and choose who we do/don't like. either they're all terrible, or none of them are.

Having China conquer another country won't solve slavery. Quite the opposite, it will increase their slave pool.
I also agree that more companies should stop using China to manufacture their products.

The only way to stop slavery in China, or the most we can do in the west, is to stop providing them with a need for labour. The British Empire ended slavery before any other country, but it didn't negatively affect their financial situation. We should do the same with China. All slavery is bad.

Giving away 20% of a country is not a peace solution.
It wasn't when Hitler annexed Checoslováquia, and it's not a solution when Russia is trying to annex Ukraine.

I agree, but the situation with Hitler and the situation with Putin are very very different. Without going too deep, the gist is that Hitler was allowed to take bits of land because Europe had just lost 20 million men to a war and nobody wanted a repeat of that.

Remember that there was already a compromise with Russia, after the invasion of Crimea. And that didn't bring peace, it only signaled to Putin that Ukraine and the West would do nothing if he invaded again. And guess what, Putin did invade Ukraine again.

Putin needs to take Ukraine for the Russian plan of expanding their sphere of influence to succeed. I'm not saying they're right or that I agree, but that's the plan they're sticking to and so far they've ticked off all of their boxes. I'm not saying we give in and just hand it over, but there has to be, there must be a point where the west says "we've done all we can, but Ukraine is lost". The only reason Ukraine isn't Russain now is because of our assistance. But if that assistance comes at the cost of Nuclear war between the west and russia, China, Iran then as harsh as it sounds, give the Ukraine to Putin.

And before you try to tell me that there are many Russians living in Crimea, might I remind you that the reason for that is the Russian genocide over the Tartars. And that even Stalin put Crimea under Ukrainian administration during the Cold War.

No comment. USSR isn't russia. Just like France isn't Viche france

 

[Brazen]

Putin needs to take Ukraine for the Russian plan of expanding their sphere of influence to succeed. I'm not saying they're right or that I agree, but that's the plan they're sticking to and so far they've ticked off all of their boxes. I'm not saying we give in and just hand it over, but there has to be, there must be a point where the west says "we've done all we can, but Ukraine is lost". The only reason Ukraine isn't Russain now is because of our assistance. But if that assistance comes at the cost of Nuclear war between the west and russia, China, Iran then as harsh as it sounds, give the Ukraine to Putin.

Not going to happen. The west support will outlast Russia's supplies, and this isn't up for debate its fact. The West is committed to stopping a terrorist state no matter the stakes, just as with WW2. Furthermore, Ukraine is committed to its freedom and both of us (Ukraine and the West) are much too brave to cower in fear of a tyrant like Putin no matter his threats. Sooner Musk, you, and others of like-mindedness realize this the sooner we can move past these muddying waters of "what ifs" and focus on what matters, a better tomorrow and/or a new dawn.

 

[winjer]

How is he supporting the annexation of taiwan? Genuine question, I've only seen his posts around Ukraine. I don't do social media

It's in one of the previous pages in this thread.

I wasn't sure that's the angle you went with. Thanks for the clarification.

A detterent to stop china going into taiwan is good, but while the same country sells arms to taiwan, they strengthen China by topping up their coffers with trade. The same country that pushed for sanctions on Putin, do nothing about China. And I assume, maybe incorrectly, that they will only deal with china if/when they invade taiwan. Will they apply sanctions on China then?

I agree china are committing terrible inhumane acts. So why do countries/corporations get a pass for dealing with them, when Musk gets vilified for doing the same. We can't pick and choose who we do/don't like. either they're all terrible, or none of them are.

I already told you, one thing is to do trade with China, another level is to support the annexation of Taiwan.
Musk has been doing busyness with China for some time, he only got so much criticism when he said that Taiwan should just be annexed by China.

Also consider that trade and circulation of people is one of the best ways to open up a country.
The China of today is not as bad as the China of Mao, or the Russia of Stalin. So there was a hope that with trade and normal relations with China, it's regime would soften up, becoming more democratic and free.
Mind you this is what happened with Taiwan. Chiang Kai-shek, was also a dictator, similar to Mao, even in communist ideology. There were even talks with the CCP and the Kuomintang about joining the two factions. Chiang was even offered a table at the CCP.
But he refused and when he died, his son was to take his place. But the people wanted democracy and freedom. He listened, abandoned his position and made Taiwan a democracy.
But unlike Taiwan and the Kuomintang, China and the CCP, choose not to change into democracy. Quite the opposite, they have radicalized.

The only way to stop slavery in China, or the most we can do in the west, is to stop providing them with a need for labour. The British Empire ended slavery before any other country, but it didn't negatively affect their financial situation. We should do the same with China. All slavery is bad.

The abolishment of slavery was basically a democratic action. Although GB was not a democracy at the time.
But the people demanded the abolishment of slavery. The British people protested, published articles, signed petitions, until the government accepted their will.

Even if all countries stopped importing from China, slavery would continue. Just not to make products for export.
The only way to abolish slavery is by decision of the people and their government. But while China is ruled by an authoritarian regime, this is not bound to happen.

I agree, but the situation with Hitler and the situation with Putin are very very different. Without going too deep, the gist is that Hitler was allowed to take bits of land because Europe had just lost 20 million men to a war and nobody wanted a repeat of that.

The method of negotiation is the same. A dictator demands compensation or threatens war.
This works if we succumb to the dictator demands. Either we stop Russia now, or he will take the whole of Ukraine. And Georgia. And then maybe Poland, Finland, Moldova, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, etc.

Putin needs to take Ukraine for the Russian plan of expanding their sphere of influence to succeed. I'm not saying they're right or that I agree, but that's the plan they're sticking to and so far they've ticked off all of their boxes. I'm not saying we give in and just hand it over, but there has to be, there must be a point where the west says "we've done all we can, but Ukraine is lost". The only reason Ukraine isn't Russain now is because of our assistance. But if that assistance comes at the cost of Nuclear war between the west and russia, China, Iran then as harsh as it sounds, give the Ukraine to Putin.

Putin only needs to conquer it's neighbors to increase Russian influence, because he is incompetent leader.
He is the leader of a country with some of the most vast resources in the world. Has a large population. And has relatively advanced industrial capabilities.
Had he put all the money of selling oil and gas, into his country, instead of into wars, Russia could have developed as much as China since the 90´s.
But he is not the only Russian ruler in the last century that did this. Russian leaders, whenever oil prices increase and they get a big surplus, spend it on war.
We can pretty much plot all Russian wars with oil prices.

No comment. USSR isn't russia. Just like France isn't Viche france

Curiously, Russia is doing a lot of things that the USSR did.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

Not going to happen. The west support will outlast Russia's supplies, and this isn't up for debate its fact. The West is committed to stopping a terrorist state no matter the stakes, just as with WW2. Furthermore, Ukraine is committed to its freedom and both of us (Ukraine and the West) are much too brave to cower in fear of a tyrant like Putin no matter his threats. Sooner Musk, you, and others of like-mindedness realize this the sooner we can move past these muddying waters of "what ifs" and focus on what matters, a better tomorrow and/or a new dawn.

Bolded: pretty sure i've heard the term new dawn before...

The rest of your post is insanity. That you believe the only way forward is complete ukrainian victory (backed up by countries who aren't at war with russia) or a nuclear war is absolutely insane.

 

[Brazen]

Bolded: pretty sure i've heard the term new dawn before...

The rest of your post is insanity. That you believe the only way forward is complete ukrainian victory (backed up by countries who aren't at war with russia) or a nuclear war is absolutely insane.

Take meanings of words used as you will, I really could care less here.

No, I believe the only way forward is to support Ukraine. This isn't about an outcome not yet realized, this is about the situation now.

And now you're calling me "insane", aka in other words you've no points to this argument.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

Take meanings of words used as you will, I really could care less here.

No, I believe the only way forward is to support Ukraine. This isn't about an outcome not yet realized, this is about the situation now.

And now you're calling me "insane", aka in other words you've no points to this argument.

*Could not care less. As in, there is no lower form of caring. If you could care less, there is an option where you care less about a situation.

Support Ukraine in what form? Official, western support? If America, and just America, want to declare war on Russia, be my guest.

No, as in, you are insane if you think the solution moving forward is for two nuclear super-powers to declare war on one another, over one country that is neither Russian, nor Nato

 

[Brazen]

*Could not care less. As in, there is no lower form of caring. If you could care less, there is an option where you care less about a situation.

Support Ukraine in what form? Official, western support? If America, and just America, want to declare war on Russia, be my guest.

No, as in, you are insane if you think the solution moving forward is for two nuclear super-powers to declare war on one another, over one country that is neither Russian, nor Nato

Support Ukraine as in the same spirit that's being done for the last decade in preparations for a possible invasion and support as its currently is now so they can continue to defend themselves.

I'm not insane, I can promise you that. One because I'm not going to live in fear of a tyrant and what he "might or might not do next" Two, because I'm not going to give in to his demands and expect that tyrant to change. Three, I've learned from history of what happens if and when you do let tyranny reign.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

Support Ukraine as in the same spirit that's being done for the last decade in preparations for a possible invasion and support as its currently is now so they can continue to defend themselves.

And if they can no longer defend themselves? Yeah i know it's a what if, but it's worth talking about. At what point does western support end, or become not enough or become such a burden on the west that we cut the chord?

Britain has campaigns saying "go cold this winter to support Ukraine". That's insanity.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Britain has campaigns saying "go cold this winter to support Ukraine". That's insanity.

Insane.

 

[funkygunther]

And if they can no longer defend themselves? Yeah i know it's a what if, but it's worth talking about. At what point does western support end, or become not enough or become such a burden on the west that we cut the chord?

Britain has campaigns saying "go cold this winter to support Ukraine". That's insanity.

you mean this?

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-ukraine-billboard-idUSL1N30110Y

 

[CharmingCharlie]

And if they can no longer defend themselves? Yeah i know it's a what if, but it's worth talking about. At what point does western support end, or become not enough or become such a burden on the west that we cut the chord?

Britain has campaigns saying "go cold this winter to support Ukraine". That's insanity.

As a fine pigeon racing, whippet betting Yorkshire man I can tell you now with 100% certainty that this "campaign" is 100% false it is utter bullshit that stemmed from a fake image

Fact Check-Doctored image of billboard telling Britons ‘you’ll be cold this winter’ viewed widely on social media

A picture of a billboard in Manchester, England, telling Britons they’ll be cold this winter because Ukrainians are more in need has been digitally altered.

www.reuters.com

If anyone in the UK goes cold this winter it will have fuck all to do with Ukraine and everything to do with 12 years of fucked up governance by the Tories that prioritised Tax cuts over investing in the actual country.

 

[Brazen]

And if they can no longer defend themselves? Yeah i know it's a what if, but it's worth talking about.

If Ukraine gives in, then I would accept their decision to do so. Their country, their choice. Now I would be disappointed, and the tomorrow would be a darker day with many more to follow as tyranny won.

I'll also add the world will still be no better off (arguably worse off) with Russia as it stands today.

 

[DeepEnigma]

you mean this?

https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-ukraine-billboard-idUSL1N30110Y

I know we seemingly live in bizzaro world at times, but a campaign like that would have been absolutely batshit insane.

It would have had to been 'bot trolling' if ever it had traction, lol.

 

[funkygunther]

I know we seemingly live in bizzaro world at times, but a campaign like that would have been absolutely batshit insane.

It would have had to been 'bot trolling' if ever it had traction, lol.

it‘s not real, and the irony of it being posted seriously (and taken seriously by you) within the context of this thread’s past few pages is delicious

 

[DeepEnigma]

it‘s not real, and the irony of it being posted seriously (and taken seriously by you) within the context of this thread’s past few pages is delicious

I know it's not real, hence why it seemed so far out there insane. And pipe down, you projecting twat.

 

[funkygunther]

I know it's not real, hence why it seemed so far out there insane. And pipe up you projecting twat.

 

[BadBurger]

Those parroting the old authoritarian playbook and suggesting the free press is bad and out to misinform are obviously no students of history. The "I do my own research" types, which translates to "I reject anything I disagree with or that which offends me, so I will listen to liars who sell me anger instead".

There's absolutely zero point in entertaining the anti-intellectual, authoritarian mindset. It flares up in civil and polite society whenever archaic and repressive ideals gain a foothold beyond the fringes, and will eventually fade away back to the fringes same as it always has before.

It is very sad, however, to witness how it can dismantle a person's entire ego and ability to think critically, turning them into just another part of the punchline for the comedians and sad cautionary tales for the rest of us.

 

[Toons]

Those parroting the old authoritarian playbook and suggesting the free press is bad and out to misinform are obviously no students of history. The "I do my own research" types, which translates to "I reject anything I disagree with or that which offends me, so I will listen to liars who sell me anger instead".

There's absolutely zero point in entertaining the anti-intellectual, authoritarian mindset. It flares up in civil and polite society whenever archaic and repressive ideals gain a foothold beyond the fringes, and will eventually fade away back to the fringes same as it always has before.

It is very sad, however, to witness how it can dismantle a person's entire ego and ability to think critically, turning them into just another part of the punchline for the comedians and sad cautionary tales for the rest of us.

Eloquently said. There is no business inviting such types to the table at this point. They straight up are not to be taken seriously, and they don't even realize how wrong they are yet.

 

[FunkMiller]

Those parroting the old authoritarian playbook and suggesting the free press is bad and out to misinform are obviously no students of history. The "I do my own research" types, which translates to "I reject anything I disagree with or that which offends me, so I will listen to liars who sell me anger instead".

A key point here being that it's these types that Russia's online disinformation campaign has targeted for many years now. Target enough of the 'I don't trust the mainstream media and the government' types, and you have a large collection of useful idiots who can parrot your propaganda at times like this.

Human psychology rather dictates that those who complain most about fake news and conspiracy, are the ones most likely to fall for both.

 

[FunkMiller]

Britain has campaigns saying "go cold this winter to support Ukraine". That's insanity.

Congratulations on showing how easily you fall for online disinformation.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

As a fine pigeon racing, whippet betting Yorkshire man I can tell you now with 100% certainty that this "campaign" is 100% false it is utter bullshit that stemmed from a fake image

http://[URL]https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-ukraine-billboard-idUSL1N30110Y

[/URL]

If anyone in the UK goes cold this winter it will have fuck all to do with Ukraine and everything to do with 12 years of fucked up governance by the Tories that prioritised Tax cuts over investing in the actual country.

Just goes to show the power of propaganda

and what flavour of yorkshire are you? Toffy snob north, inbred south, smack head east or up your own arse west?

 

[Frank Horrigan]

As a fine pigeon racing, whippet betting Yorkshire man I can tell you now with 100% certainty that this "campaign" is 100% false it is utter bullshit that stemmed from a fake image

http://[URL]https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-ukraine-billboard-idUSL1N30110Y

[/URL]

If anyone in the UK goes cold this winter it will have fuck all to do with Ukraine and everything to do with 12 years of fucked up governance by the Tories that prioritised Tax cuts over investing in the actual country.

I don't understand that reuters fact check. I looked on their fotoforensics link that shows it has been doctored but I don't get what I'm looking at? Is the purple the doctored bit?

And, it's not too hard to believe it would be real. The shit I have seen posted on bus stops and billboards in regard to mental health, trans stuff (no idea how to word that) and covid vaccinations, it isn't too much of a leap to believe someone would print that

 

[funkygunther]

I don't understand that reuters fact check. I looked on their fotoforensics link that shows it has been doctored but I don't get what I'm looking at? Is the purple the doctored bit?

And, it's not too hard to believe it would be real. The shit I have seen posted on bus stops and billboards in regard to mental health, trans stuff (no idea how to word that) and covid vaccinations, it isn't too much of a leap to believe someone would print that

On the picture itself, ignoring the forensics check you can see the original picture in the article, which has the same girl wearing a beige coat walking away from the billboard on the right side. That alone proves it's the same photo that's just been doctored. Also if it was real and put up by a government department, as you imply, it would have that department's branding or logo. As it stands its a poster put up by anyone, who? Could be any activist (in which case who cares) but you say "Britain" put it up, as in an authority, which brings me to the second point:

It's only "not too hard to believe" if it confirms your biases and you have been conditioned to believe anything without questioning. You've seen previous public messaging and you've decided, or been told, that you don't like it and that it is indicative of something else. For example, that you live in an authoritarian hellhole. As you've already convinced yourself of that, it's easy for any piece of propaganda to fly straight by your brain and get automatically filed into that category. But it took me no time to Google and read that reuters link, and that's something you could and should have done before acting as a conduit for bollocks.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

On the picture itself, ignoring the forensics check you can see the original picture in the article, which has the same girl wearing a beige coat walking away from the billboard on the right side. That alone proves it's the same photo that's just been doctored. Also if it was real and put up by a government department, as you imply, it would have that department's branding or logo. As it stands its a poster put up by anyone, who? Could be any activist (in which case who cares) but you say "Britain" put it up, as in an authority, which brings me to the second point:

It's only "not too hard to believe" if it confirms your biases and you have been conditioned to believe anything without questioning. You've seen previous public messaging and you've decided, or been told, that you don't like it and that it is indicative of something else. For example, that you live in an authoritarian hellhole. As you've already convinced yourself of that, it's easy for any piece of propaganda to fly straight by your brain and get automatically filed into that category. But it took me no time to Google and read that reuters link, and that's something you could and should have done before acting as a conduit for bollocks.

You could have ended after that first paragraph but I suppose you couldn't ignore the chance to get on the high horse.

The bolded are stretches, guesses and assumptions made by you, based on one mistake I made, that im willing to admit to and i appreciate the correction. Do you act humble and continue with a decent discussion? Nahh fuck that, let's drag me over the coals and nail me to a cross, because that's what important. Label anyone who makes one mistake once and put them against the proverbial wall. All of my previous points, whether relevant or correct are ignored and my future posts are hand waved away.

That's the problem though these days isn't it? It's not about genuine discussion, free flow of ideas, corrections and improving thoughts going forward. Humility, for the sake of progress, has fallen by the way side and cry-baby tantrums, deflections and disingenuous repostes are the only way to discuss anything online.

 

[Brazen]

Those parroting the old authoritarian playbook and suggesting the free press is bad and out to misinform are obviously no students of history. The "I do my own research" types, which translates to "I reject anything I disagree with or that which offends me, so I will listen to liars who sell me anger instead".

Human psychology rather dictates that those who complain most about fake news and conspiracy, are the ones most likely to fall for both.

On the contrary, The number one reason people fall victim to "fake/false news" or propaganda is due to sheer laziness or an unwillingness to do their own research. Studies show that a same group of people trying to discern what's real or what isn't perform better the more time they have to indulge in said news, subject matters, and research. Yes, you have biases on the fringe, but this isn't even close to a majority of the population. Trying to pretend that's the case is dishonest and insulting to our communities and society. When it comes to events, most simply don't care or have the time, and when corrected sometimes they give excuses. So just because someone says "I do my own research" doesn't necessarily mean they are actually doing so.

The free press is good and nearly all the democratic world recognizes the methods that's needed to achieve truth and fact, no government/state intervention or recourse and an environment of discussion and the ability to self-correct without limitations from yourself or others.

Without discussion, criticism, and understanding there is no progress, and that is exactly what authoritarians strive for.

 

[funkygunther]

You could have ended after that first paragraph but I suppose you couldn't ignore the chance to get on the high horse.

The bolded are stretches, guesses and assumptions made by you, based on one mistake I made, that im willing to admit to and i appreciate the correction. Do you act humble and continue with a decent discussion? Nahh fuck that, let's drag me over the coals and nail me to a cross, because that's what important. Label anyone who makes one mistake once and put them against the proverbial wall. All of my previous points, whether relevant or correct are ignored and my future posts are hand waved away.

That's the problem though these days isn't it? It's not about genuine discussion, free flow of ideas, corrections and improving thoughts going forward. Humility, for the sake of progress, has fallen by the way side and cry-baby tantrums, deflections and disingenuous repostes are the only way to discuss anything online.

what happened is that rather than a little introspection you excused yourself saying "it's not too hard to believe" and I replied specifically to that to tell you that if you'd thought a little bit about it then it would be hard to believe, if you had not added your excuse I wouldn't have replied to it

you can change this to try and play the victim now all you want but I'm not falling for that...instead you can try and learn from your mistake and move on

so now you're trying to excuse yourself again, turning it on onto my tone instead...no, that's not going to work, nor is trying to pull away to make this about "progress", there's nothing to progress here....the only problem these days is that you said something stupid, were corrected and now want to be treated like a child where I'm supposed to guess how nice I'm supposed to be to you each time you say something stupid

the guesses and assumptions are based purely off your own words, that is: "the shit I have seen posted on bus stops and billboards in regard to mental health, trans stuff (no idea how to word that) and covid vaccinations", but you're saying that this fake billboard wasn't a factor in that now? where did you learn of the fake billboard, how did you get wind of it? that would be interesting

 

[Frank Horrigan]

what happened is that rather than a little introspection you excused yourself saying "it's not too hard to believe" and I replied specifically to that to tell you that if you'd thought a little bit about it then it would be hard to believe, if you had not added your excuse I wouldn't have replied to it

you can change this to try and play the victim now all you want but I'm not falling for that...instead you can try and learn from your mistake and move on

so now you're trying to excuse yourself again, turning it on onto my tone instead...no, that's not going to work, nor is trying to pull away to make this about "progress", there's nothing to progress here....the only problem these days is that you said something stupid, were corrected and now want to be treated like a child where I'm supposed to guess how nice I'm supposed to be to you each time you say something stupid

the guesses and assumptions are based purely off your own words, that is: "the shit I have seen posted on bus stops and billboards in regard to mental health, trans stuff (no idea how to word that) and covid vaccinations", but you're saying that this fake billboard wasn't a factor in that now? where did you learn of the fake billboard, how did you get wind of it? that would be interesting

What makes you think I want to continue discussion with you? I don't. The only person who replied to me with a reasonable response was CharmingCharlie . I'll leave you with these to mull over:

You've played your hand and shown your cards. Even the bolded show you've doubled down. I've shown humility, you've shown assumption, arrogance and continued to tell me what I think. Not an effective tactic to get people on to your side.

The reason people on all sides of all sides are willing to believe everything they're told within their social circle, is that not believing in it caused them to be brow beat, berated belittled and ostracised. There are studies that show that 80% of people are willing to admit to believing that the sun is purple, the grass is orange and that the sea is green, when placed in groups that (are told as part of the experiment) believe the same.

85% of the world are religious. Within the majority of those people, they believe only God is infallible. Atheists believe nothing is infallabile. Therefore anyone who ridicules others for making a mistake are either placing themselves equal to God, or betraying the beliefs of atheists.

After all, "to err is to human, to forgive, divine" Alexander Pope.

Are you equal to God? A bad atheist? Or a robot?